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Y import 4 some1 2 look like you?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2017 at 22:41
It is a lot of little things, that show a pattern.  I kind of think that maybe he outgrew it, but maybe not.
I don't know of any whites that I can think of offhand, who have the same feet of clay.  It has to do with the difference between the public persona and the private persona.  For example, Trump is fairly obvious about his 'prowess.'  There may be some question about whether he has been predatory, but he hasn't particularly hid what he has done, nor has the media.  I don't think that the WASP community is looking for the same kind of public icon of virtue that black performers serve (rightfully or not) in the black community.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2017 at 04:24
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

toyomotor ever heard of Chuck Berry and that video?   

Agreed his rockin' was hoppin' but he was a weird sob

No, I haven't. Could I have a clue of what it was about?

My Dove,


Just a much misunderstood young man, who grew into a much misunderstood old man.
But at least we know about him. It seems that as time goes by, more and more of the rich and famous are being outed for their perversions.

Personally, being a father of six children child pornography disgusts and angers me.

(No, I didn't father all of them.)

We don't do ourselves any favors by calling people out for being a little 'bedroom weird' and we do not hear about Berry's predilections every time his name is mentioned. Maybe it's Politically Correct to ignore it but depending on the scatological rites of the particular human involved, it could be a daily media drumbeat if it forwards a preferred narrative.
 
All due respect to Berry's talent but the bit about 14 year old girls being used and abused should not be overlooked.
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2017 at 07:04
Vanuatu wrote
Quote We don't do ourselves any favors by calling people out for being a little 'bedroom weird' and we do not hear about Berry's predilections every time his name is mentioned. Maybe it's Politically Correct to ignore it but depending on the scatological rites of the particular human involved, it could be a daily media drumbeat if it forwards a preferred narrative.
 
All due respect to Berry's talent but the bit about 14 year old girls being used and abused should not be overlooked.

We never hear anything about Liberace or Danny Kaye, both of whom are highly suspect in my book, but in their time they entertained millions of people. I don't think many wanted to emulate them though.

More recently we hear about Jimmy Saville, Rolf Harris and Bill Cosby and their alleged crimes. But as I said before, I have suspicions about 30 and 40 year old complaints, and in any case how could you expect an 80+ year old man to remember with clarity what he was doing 40 or so years ago.

You all know my old employment, and I think in these circumstances there should be a Statute of Limitations of about ten years, that is, no complaint within ten years of the alleged crime, no prosecution.

Once you eliminate the impossible,
whatever remains,
no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 03:47
Well there was a film made about Liberace called "Behind the Candelabra" Michael Douglas is Liberace. Yet films that would debase homosexuals are not going to be particularly appreciated. 

Danny Kaye ? What did he maybe do 70 years ago? LOL Curious I never heard a thing about him.

Not all of the accusations are 45 years old...

Andrea Constand, a former employee at Temple University, where Cosby started college in 1961, told Canadian authorities that in 2004 the comedian drugged her with "herbal pills" and then "touched her breasts and vaginal area, rubbed his penis against her hand, and digitally penetrated her," ABC News reported in 2005. She alleged the incident occurred when Cosby invited her to his home in Cheltenham, Pennsylvania.http://www.buzzfeed.com/tasneemnashrulla/here-are-all-the-women-who-have-accused-bill-cosby-of-sexual?utm_term=.tf0pr6qbV#.tqMeAalKv


 
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 06:50
Vanuatu

I don't know about the movie, and I don't know anything in particular about him...as I said, my suspicions.

The allegations against Cosby and Rolf Harris are possibly true, and if they are, their punishment should be harsh. But I maintain my position, I view allegations of deeds supposedly done three or more decades ago with suspicion.

I note that the allegations made by Andrea Constand were 43 years old.

Is nobody safe, who's next? 

Once you eliminate the impossible,
whatever remains,
no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 16:46
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu

I don't know about the movie, and I don't know anything in particular about him...as I said, my suspicions.

The allegations against Cosby and Rolf Harris are possibly true, and if they are, their punishment should be harsh. But I maintain my position, I view allegations of deeds supposedly done three or more decades ago with suspicion.

I note that the allegations made by Andrea Constand were 43 years old.

Is nobody safe, who's next? 


Hi toyomotor, you stated;
"I note that the allegations made by Andrea Constand were 43 years old."

Have you misread the passage? or are you being cynical? 2004 is the year of Andrea Constand's encounter with Cosby. He is an old man by then. In this case he hasn't forgotten anything, save his Viagra.

Are you comfortable with someone like Trump being maligned bc you don't like him?

Please address the believably of adults who came forward with claims of abuse by the church that happened in some cases forty years prior to reporting. There is a reason why there is no limitation on prosecution in many states here in US.

What does Australian Law say about limitations on rape prosecution? 


For those states that have a statute of limitations for rape, some period between three to thirty years is common. However, not all states have a statute of limitations for rape and others have exceptions to their own statutes.





Edited by Vanuatu - 16 Apr 2017 at 16:50
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2017 at 17:27
Vanuatu wrote
Quote  Have you misread the passage? or are you being cynical? 2004 is the year of Andrea Constand's encounter with Cosby. He is an old man by then. In this case he hasn't forgotten anything, save his Viagra.

Yes, sorry I obviously have misread the passage.

Quote  Are you comfortable with someone like Trump being maligned bc you don't like him?

No, my only comments have been in relation to what I've read in the media. As I've explained previously, I have no idea whether the US sources are accurate or not. Trump is entitled to be treated fairly, despite all of his failings.Wink

Quote  Please address the believably of adults who came forward with claims of abuse by the church that happened in some cases forty years prior to reporting. There is a reason why there is no limitation on prosecution in many states here in US.

That's my point. I'm not sure of their believability. But I confine that remark to the allegations about the rich and famous in the US. The allegations made against priests and other church members, and in some cases, welfare groups strike a stronger chord with me. But not to say that I necessarily believe them all. I simply don't know.

Quote What does Australian Law say about limitations on rape prosecution?
In Tasmania, rape is called a Annexe 'A' crime, for which there is no period of statutory limitation.

Yes, I know I've left myself open to further argument, but, regardless of whom the allegation is made against, I still don't feel entirely comfortable with those which are 30 or 40 years old.

My qualifier to that is if there is evidence that corroberates the evidence of the victim and which indicates guilt, OK. I would view the allegation much differently.


Once you eliminate the impossible,
whatever remains,
no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2017 at 04:18
Quote
That's my point. I'm not sure of their believability. But I confine that remark to the allegations about the rich and famous in the US. The allegations made against priests and other church members, and in some cases, welfare groups strike a stronger chord with me. But not to say that I necessarily believe them all. I simply don't know.

Yes, I know I've left myself open to further argument, but, regardless of whom the allegation is made against, I still don't feel entirely comfortable with those which are 30 or 40 years old.

My qualifier to that is if there is evidence that corroberates the evidence of the victim and which indicates guilt, OK. I would view the allegation much differently.


True we would rather not see behavior like this going unchecked for 30 or 40 years. It's hard to believe but if the victims aren't talking we can't expect the perpetrator to confess. It goes to people having power over others and the tendency to shame and discredit those who would defame our 'heroes.' 

Does a criminal's method used repeatedly establish circumstantial evidence?


Edited by toyomotor - 17 Apr 2017 at 04:44
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2017 at 05:04
Vanuatu wrote
Quote Does a criminal's method used repeatedly establish circumstantial evidence?

In Australia it's called Similar Fact Evidence.

If a criminal is charged with a crime, and it can be proven (most usually by prior convictions) that he has committed other crimes in the same manner (Modus Operandi or MO) it adds weight to the prosecution case. But of course there have been known to by copycats, so the Similar Fact Evidence, alone, will not secure a conviction. Nor will the evidence of an accomplice. Both need to be corroberated in same material particular relevant to the current case-forensic evidence, other witnesses etc.

And I agree that in many cases the argument of the defence, for the rich and famous can afford such luxuries, is considered more than the evidence of the victim.

I don't know much about the US jurisprudence, but if what I see on TV is any indication, it stinks IMHO. Too theatrical, too biased against what we call the Laws of Evidence.


Once you eliminate the impossible,
whatever remains,
no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2017 at 21:23
There is conviction in a court of law,
and there is conviction in the court of public opinion.
Or in other words, if there is a heck of a lot of smoke, it is best to get out of the building.  The difference being when you are out of the building, at some point the fire department will come in and handle it, whereas with accusations of criminal or immoral behavior, one may never find out.  But, you know, I never associated with celebrities before, and so discoveries of improprieties is not going to stop me from associating with them now.  It is unfortunate, but the smoke around Cosby interferes with my enjoyment of his comedy routines, which I grew up with.  Suspicion of OJ Simpson interferes with my enjoyment of his Naked Gun movies, etc.  And Robin Williams suicide interferes with my enjoyment of his work (although admittedly one saw it coming from a long way off, suicide is a theme in many of his movies).

But the point is that celebrities are often appropriated by society as models for society because of their ethnicity, not because of their moral leadership.  Sometimes they are appropriated as models for a particular ethnicity even though they are not "purely" that ethnicity, but are "mixed" race.  Please note, that they are model for behavior is not a problem for me because I don't think that people should pay much attention to race when thinking about who are wonderful human beings.  
Halle Berry won an Academy award for best actress when Denzel Washington won best actor.  Everybody patted themselves on the back that black actors won both best actor and best actress, which is nice, but it should be noted that Halle Berry is mixed African American and Caucasian, (as far as I can tell).  Likewise Tiger Woods is mixed African-American and Asian, although he is usually described as black.  Both are talented individuals.  And, if you want to describe Halle Berry and Tiger Woods as breaking down barriers, then that is fine.  I just think that it is important to understand what barriers they are breaking down, because it is not a matter of black "vs" white "vs" Asian "vs" whatever else in nice, neat categories.  It is kind of blowing the lid of race, like Fujimori, a Japanese-Peruvian who was elected President of Peru (and had some problems with corruption, but that is another story). 
btw Halle Berry seems like a good person to me, Tiger Woods seems to have the bad habit of liking women other than his wife, which is probably more of a problem for him then for me.  I don't know details and I don't want to know details.  Sometimes it is better that way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2017 at 07:21
Getting back on topic, perhaps it's a case of I look a bit like him, so I must be a bit like him in other admirable aspects.

Like, don't you wish you looked like me Franky? 
Once you eliminate the impossible,
whatever remains,
no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2017 at 21:59
Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder, and from what you say, toyomotor, somebody loves you.  So in that respect, you are successful.  Whether I would want to look like anyone else, well no.  I generally like who I am, including the flaws.

I think that the there was more of a black community, 50-150 years ago, and so they were proud of those in it that were successful, and may have overlooked there flaws.  While to some degree there is still segregation (and also self-segregation), to a great extent those who are successful entertainment stars are part of the larger whole, "owned" by the entire American culture, with little distinction of black or white.  Or so it seems to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2017 at 22:58
Yes, I agree, when you're at the bottom of the pile and one of your neighbours kids makes good, it's a lot to be proud of and to emulate.

Why wouldn't you, it's called reflected glory.
Once you eliminate the impossible,
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no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2017 at 02:18
But with segregation, you have small, intimate communities, small towns or neighborhoods, where everyone was black.  Similar to an ethnic neighborhood, Chinatown, or Little Italy.  With integration, the world opened up quite a bit, but also there was the loss of that intimacy.  bell hooks writes about that to some degree.  Whereas in a small community, everyone knew who you were, with things opening up (to a large extent), one became rather anonymous.  Celebrity is in some ways intimate, some ways anonymous.  We like to think that we know who celebrities are, but often we see just a persona, not their authentic self.  Or maybe for some their persona is their authentic self. 

reflected glory, have to remember that.  Or perhaps, fame by association.  On the other hand, an economist at a major university made his class subscribe to the Wall Street Journal, he said the most important section (for MBAs) was the obituaries, because it told about notable people and how they got that way.  I don't think he was talking about reflected glory, I think he was talking about finding ideas, and stealing them (Remember, good artists borrow, great artists steal).  When you steal, steal well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2017 at 13:53
Hollywood has always projected white-centric media because it plays to a dominantly white audience who have a history of segregation in their society. In recent decades this has been somewhat muted, with more equality based attitudes making themselves felt, but a lot of it is political correctness, because films now regularly cast minorities to play parts that have absolutely no reason to be in the film at all. This was always the case. Sidney Poitier had a long career but he was, more often than not, a token black. His skill at acting won through but he played the stereotypes nonetheless. The same situation existed for Sammy Davis Jnr, applauded in public, but always coming and going via the back entrance.
Remember that 1936 Olympic Games? The story goes that Hitler refused to shake negro medal winner Jesse Owens when he received gold for his track event. Not true, Hitler did shake his hand. The man who refused to shake his hand was President Roosevelt. Owens said that himself.
 
The situation these days is a lot more fluid. Old attitudes still exist, new attitudes bubble to the surface, but neither really wins, and all to often there's a rather blatant attempt to educate via role modelling in film, which is sometimes as distasteful and the disclusion of the minority in the first place. IF, say, Wesley Snipes plays a hero cop in a thriller - I have no problem with that. The role is not racially dictated and he's just as capable of playing the lead as anyone else. If he played a side kick to some medieval British rebel, then woah - pardon me? If you want to portray medieval England then applying modern political correctness to avoid criticism by including a minority actor that would not have existed in that time and place is a little insulting for al concerned, as well as being an abuse of history.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2017 at 23:50
A friend of mine told me about a video game that took place in Medieval Poland, I guess a group was complaining that it doesn't have a diversity of character types for the players.  Go figure.

Once upon a time there was a show on TV called Chico and the Man, which had a Hispanic lead, the Hispanic community, I have heard, really liked that at first, just they initially liked Cheech in Cheech and Chong, but like turned to dislike as it came to be seen as a stereotype.  Also for Chico and the Man, the lead committed suicide, which probably further doomed the show.  I think Chico and the Man was a Hispanic version of the Jeffersons (which was a black version of Archie Bunker), but since I have never seen it in syndication, I don't necessarily know.  I would like to see it on late night television.  But a lot of portrayal of minorities is in a fairly stereotypical way, which is first embraced by the minority group as representing them, and then condemned by the minorities as not accurately representing them.  But is not just imposed from the outside, look at blacksploitation films for example.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2017 at 01:50
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Hollywood has always projected white-centric media because it plays to a dominantly white audience who have a history of segregation in their society. In recent decades this has been somewhat muted, with more equality based attitudes making themselves felt, but a lot of it is political correctness, because films now regularly cast minorities to play parts that have absolutely no reason to be in the film at all. This was always the case. Sidney Poitier had a long career but he was, more often than not, a token black. His skill at acting won through but he played the stereotypes nonetheless. The same situation existed for Sammy Davis Jnr, applauded in public, but always coming and going via the back entrance.
Remember that 1936 Olympic Games? The story goes that Hitler refused to shake negro medal winner Jesse Owens when he received gold for his track event. Not true, Hitler did shake his hand. The man who refused to shake his hand was President Roosevelt. Owens said that himself.
 
The situation these days is a lot more fluid. Old attitudes still exist, new attitudes bubble to the surface, but neither really wins, and all to often there's a rather blatant attempt to educate via role modelling in film, which is sometimes as distasteful and the disclusion of the minority in the first place. IF, say, Wesley Snipes plays a hero cop in a thriller - I have no problem with that. The role is not racially dictated and he's just as capable of playing the lead as anyone else. If he played a side kick to some medieval British rebel, then woah - pardon me? If you want to portray medieval England then applying modern political correctness to avoid criticism by including a minority actor that would not have existed in that time and place is a little insulting for al concerned, as well as being an abuse of history.

CALDRAIL
Thanks for your post. You're quite correct. Good to see you back with us.




Edited by toyomotor - 17 May 2017 at 01:51
Once you eliminate the impossible,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2017 at 00:34
caldrail, you said that neither [old attitudes and new attitudes] really wins.  I worry about this idea of "winning" when it comes to race.  When you have winners, you have losers.  It is the question of a zero-sum game versus whether all boats float at high tide.  I think that black political leaders too often approach matters of how can I give loot to my (black) constituency.  You have hiring and enrollment quotas, that black leaders are quick to protect as their territory.  Nevermind the fact that most poverty in the United States is white and rural, liberals who pretend to be so concerned for the poor, will not entertain switching from a race based affirmative action to a needs based affirmative action.  They've got their territory, their constituency, their audience.
There is a prejudice of ignorance, where people don't know other groups of people and thus get peculiar ideas about them.  Supposedly, a prejudice of ignorance can be fixed as people come into more contact with each other and learn that people are people, they have more in common than they have that is different.  But something else can come into play while that experience of commonality is happening.  The ignorant can learn that the 'playing field' is tilted, and so society has tilt the entire thing, not for all minorities, but for disadvantaged ones, disadvantaged by their race, not by poverty.  Thus, the ignorant learn that certain people are inherently disadvantaged because of race.  A middle class black is "disadvantaged," even though he goes to a nice school, has good parents, and some wealth.  A white from coal country in Appalachia is not "disadvantaged" by such standards, nor is an Vietnamese American whose parents where boat-people, having fled the fall of Saigon.  In such situations, one could almost suspect that what is really going on here, is the protection of vested interests.  Personally, I think that such race based quotas, etc, feed into the divisions between people, rather than help smooth them over.
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