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Which language can you speak?(Except English)

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Poll Question: Which language can you speak?(Except English)
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
6 [9.23%]
10 [15.38%]
13 [20.00%]
4 [6.15%]
5 [7.69%]
2 [3.08%]
2 [3.08%]
2 [3.08%]
6 [9.23%]
7 [10.77%]
3 [4.62%]
5 [7.69%]
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Lao Tse View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lao Tse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2012 at 19:43
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Originally posted by Pinguin Pinguin wrote:




For instance, in the add above, the first character means the number 3, the second I have no idea Confused... But the third and fourth mean restaurant.

The third character has the radical of water and is an stylized drawing of a bottle, which means, sort of rice wine. The fourth is a pig under a roof, which means a place where you can eat meat. In other terms: it is a "meat and wine" place.

If I made same mistake, please correct me.

But the fascinating of Chinese script is that is not phonetic but ideographic. It is a way to codify ideas. I don't think is much practical, but it is still very beautiful.

 
The second character "he" is very important and has many meaning. It's is particular important for Chinese philosophy, BTW. The most common meaning is unite, bringing together, etc.
 
Third character means "wine", the fourth is actually "home" or "house." But the third and fourth together indeed mean restaurant, although the literal translation would be a "wine house."
 
What the 1st an 2nd character together mean is something like: "three coming together" or "three unite together," which I believe is a reference to Taoist concept of the union of three: Heavens, Earth and Man, which basically mean the union of harmonius cosmos or universe. But san he 三合 can also have other meanings depending on a context...
 
Kind of poetic name for a restaurant.
 


Indeed. Chinese script is surprising because those associations. And Taoism is a central part in chinese culture. Still, Chinese script is extremely difficult to learn in comparison to an alphabet (western languages, Hindu, Hebrew, Arab) or syllabus (Korean, Japanese), so I am afraid in the very long term will be replaced by pinyin, or something equivalent.



I doubt that Chinese characters even have the ability to be replaced. Pinyin is only the english spelling of Chinese (or other eastern languages) pronounication, and with a large percentage of China taking up calligraphy so they live longer (that is in fact a theory), they still use Chinese characters because pinyin, with all of the accents and punctuation, doesn't make beautiful art. Carivings are still being made in a script that everyone in the west said would go extinct in the 50s under Mao. Even after the reformation of many chinese characters, a large percentage uses the traditional  form of writing. Almost 3 billion people accross the world can speak Chinese and read the characters without relying on radicals. And which script do you mean pinguin???
在財富的害處,而是一件好事永遠不持續。我在和平中仅居住在新的風下。 Wei Jia Hong No harm in wealth, but a good thing doesn't last forever. I live only among peace under new winds
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2012 at 20:22
Cywr:  you are correct in that Korean words are grouped in two to four letter syllables, giving the impression of a character. However those syllables are composed of letters, each of which represents a sound (except in the case of ("O"), which is silent at the beginning of a syllable, and has an "ng" sound at the end. So, Hangul is an alphabet. By the way, it bears a resemblance to some other North East Asian alphabets.

Pinguino, the irony of your sign example is that in German it says: "Thai Food our specialty". As you may know, the Bolivians adopted the Chinese word for "Let's Eat!" (shr fan) as "Chufan" (IIRC), which in Bolivian Spanish means; "Chinese Restaurant". I don't doubt your example to be a "chinese" restaurant, but I would bet that the owners are Thai. Thailand received some serious Chinese immigration, but because "farang" (foreigners) weren't allowed to own or inherit (via a will or marriage) land, many successful Chinese married Thai women, adopted Thai names, created false Thai family histories for themselves, petitioned to become Thai citizens, and generally held themselves out to the Thai public as Thai. 


Edited by lirelou - 16 Jul 2012 at 20:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2012 at 20:29
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:


Pinguino, the irony of your sign example is that in German it says: "Thai Food our specialty". As you may know, the Bolivians adopted the Chinese word for "Let's Eat!" (shr fan) as "Chufan" (IIRC), which in Bolivian Spanish means; "Chinese Restaurant". I don't doubt your example to be a "chinese" restaurant, but I would bet that the owners are Thai. Thailand received some serious Chinese immigration, but because "farang" (foreigners) weren't allowed to own or inherit (via a will or marriage) land, many successful Chinese married Thai women, adopted Thai names, created false Thai family histories for themselves, petitioned to become Thai citizens, and generally held themselves out to the Thai public as Thai. 


Indeed. The western languages translations have nothing to do with the characters. That's quite common I guess, particularly when owners try to give the impression the restaurant is "asiatic" by using those chinese characters. In our local chinese restaurants, that are usually owned by Chinese immigrants, the translations are more precise.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2012 at 20:42
Quote (that is in fact a theory)


Well bilingualism correlates with lower likely-hood of developing dementia in old age (though the actual link isn't understood), it could be a play on that.

Lirelou, I'm aware of Korean's general resemblance to its neighbours' srcipts, though I find it very distinctive. It was the first example of a script with a syllabic script that I was made aware of, though not a true one like Brahmic scripts as you pointed out, and I find the concept interesting.

Quote That's quite common I guess, particularly when owners try to give the impression the restaurant is "asiatic" by using those chinese characters.


Its not unlikely that it could be run by Thai-Chinese, who tend to be Hakka. Likewise many Dutch Chinese restaurants are run by Chinese-Indonesian families, who in turn tend to be Hokkien.
What is weirder is how some Thai restaurants use fake Chinese-looking script for Latin characters, when Thai script is related to Indian ones.

Incidently, has anyone heard of Square World Calligraphy?




Edited by Cywr - 16 Jul 2012 at 20:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lao Tse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2012 at 21:46

I have, I use several aspects of it.

在財富的害處,而是一件好事永遠不持續。我在和平中仅居住在新的風下。 Wei Jia Hong No harm in wealth, but a good thing doesn't last forever. I live only among peace under new winds
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2012 at 10:34
Originally posted by Lao Tse Lao Tse wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Originally posted by Pinguin Pinguin wrote:




For instance, in the add above, the first character means the number 3, the second I have no idea Confused... But the third and fourth mean restaurant.

The third character has the radical of water and is an stylized drawing of a bottle, which means, sort of rice wine. The fourth is a pig under a roof, which means a place where you can eat meat. In other terms: it is a "meat and wine" place.

If I made same mistake, please correct me.

But the fascinating of Chinese script is that is not phonetic but ideographic. It is a way to codify ideas. I don't think is much practical, but it is still very beautiful.

 
The second character "he" is very important and has many meaning. It's is particular important for Chinese philosophy, BTW. The most common meaning is unite, bringing together, etc.
 
Third character means "wine", the fourth is actually "home" or "house." But the third and fourth together indeed mean restaurant, although the literal translation would be a "wine house."
 
What the 1st an 2nd character together mean is something like: "three coming together" or "three unite together," which I believe is a reference to Taoist concept of the union of three: Heavens, Earth and Man, which basically mean the union of harmonius cosmos or universe. But san he 三合 can also have other meanings depending on a context...
 
Kind of poetic name for a restaurant.
 


Indeed. Chinese script is surprising because those associations. And Taoism is a central part in chinese culture. Still, Chinese script is extremely difficult to learn in comparison to an alphabet (western languages, Hindu, Hebrew, Arab) or syllabus (Korean, Japanese), so I am afraid in the very long term will be replaced by pinyin, or something equivalent.



I doubt that Chinese characters even have the ability to be replaced. Pinyin is only the english spelling of Chinese (or other eastern languages) pronounication, and with a large percentage of China taking up calligraphy so they live longer (that is in fact a theory), they still use Chinese characters because pinyin, with all of the accents and punctuation, doesn't make beautiful art. Carivings are still being made in a script that everyone in the west said would go extinct in the 50s under Mao. Even after the reformation of many chinese characters, a large percentage uses the traditional  form of writing. Almost 3 billion people accross the world can speak Chinese and read the characters without relying on radicals. And which script do you mean pinguin???
 
I don't think they will be replaced either. In fact, now there is even a tendency in the Mainland China to reverse the simplification of the characters and go back to the traditional ones.
 
In fact, new technologies and use of keybord makes using Chinese characters much easier than before.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2012 at 10:35
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Cywr:  you are correct in that Korean words are grouped in two to four letter syllables, giving the impression of a character. However those syllables are composed of letters, each of which represents a sound (except in the case of ("O"), which is silent at the beginning of a syllable, and has an "ng" sound at the end. So, Hangul is an alphabet. By the way, it bears a resemblance to some other North East Asian alphabets.
 
 
Dear Lirelou, do you know Korean? And what other "North East Asian alphabets" are you talking about?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2012 at 18:20
Sarmat, Do I "know" Korean?  I certainly don't speak anything but the basic tourist version: 'Dugai pyong maikju Hite juseyo' etc.  But I did learn the alphabet so as to be able to read place names. Took me a few months, and at that point I was always recognizing "Itaewon" via "Sowolgil" just about the time the bus passed me. But, with after a year experience I became pretty good at it. My work required an ability to find places on Korean tactical maps. As you know, the government adopted a new Romanization system in the early 2000s. Some maps would have the old version  and others the new version. That could lead to confusing names of places that sounded alike. Luckily, the combined staff messages always included the place names in Hangul. So I would always check the Hangul spelling to insure we had the right location. More than once, the English alphabet only analysts were wrong. With the world cup, all public road signs in Korea were changed to include both Hangul and English versions of place names, but for travel around Korea, learning the Hangul alphabet remains a virtual necessity for any foreign traveler.

As for other alphabets, I saw examples of Jurchen, and Mongol (?) scripts that were supposedly alphabets. What I meant by "bears a resemblance" is that they too resemble Chinese characters and are perhaps also syllabic as is Hangul. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but despite Sejeong's alphabet, Chinese remained the official writing system of the Choseon dynasty right up until 1910, with the very first Hangul movable print being produced in Japan, and imported into Korea in the 1890s for use by a newspaper. 


Edited by lirelou - 18 Jul 2012 at 18:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2012 at 04:26
Ok, now I see what you mean.
 
Jurchen while establishing Jin dynasty in 12-13 centuries AD created their own hieroglyphic script based on the Chinese pattern and was also very similar to Khitan hieroglyphic script (may be that you meant by Mongol script?) Khitans apparently also used an alphabet operating based on the same principle as Hangul.
 
Modern Mongolian and Manchu, however, are actually true "alphabets" (in the sense that we know it) with both vowels and consonants. They do not resemble Chinese characters at all and in fact, genetically they are distant descendants of Aramaic script (having nothing to do with Chinese language) which came to Uyghur via the mediation of Central Asian Manichaean missionaries.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lao Tse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2012 at 09:57
The Manchu Language is although on its way to extiction, and it is an alphabet, is mostly in one ethnicity, but it is still seen in modern Chinese calligraphic scripts as a name, and is still carved into seals next to the chinese translation. But the thing about the languages of the orient is that many only rely upon ethnicity. The Mongol language remains widely spoken in northern China, but the majority of it is only spoken in Mongol households, as is Manchu in those households. The dialects and style of the Chinese language rely upon their own main ethnicity. They are the Han ren, Shi ren, Xianbei Ren, Canton ren, Jiang ren, immigrents from Japan are Riwen ren, Tibetan, and since Manchuria is now a part of China, Manchu ren. I always include Manchu as a part of China because of Borders. In exports for clients in China, many times I write things in up to 8 or 9 different ways. I even have to write my signature in 9 different languages, and/or dialects, so they can read it.
在財富的害處,而是一件好事永遠不持續。我在和平中仅居住在新的風下。 Wei Jia Hong No harm in wealth, but a good thing doesn't last forever. I live only among peace under new winds
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VALKO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2014 at 18:48
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Edited by VALKO - 16 Jan 2014 at 18:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VALKO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jan 2014 at 18:49
Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

How come there is no German up there. I can't "speak" it but i am taking classes in college for it.

I believe because we call our language "Deutsch". The word derives from "Teutsch", which, in turn, derives from "Teutonisch" . . . .Sleepy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harburs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2014 at 07:26
Originally posted by VALKO VALKO wrote:

Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

How come there is no German up there. I can't "speak" it but i am taking classes in college for it.

I believe because we call our language "Deutsch". The word derives from "Teutsch", which, in turn, derives from "Teutonisch" . . . .Sleepy
Good explanation. So Teutons were so important for Germans who named their language after them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Penderyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2014 at 14:12
Cymraeg ('Welsh'), French, Mandarin and a little Italian.   Have some knowledge of classical latin and Greek.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2014 at 14:51
Originally posted by VALKO VALKO wrote:

Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

How come there is no German up there. I can't "speak" it but i am taking classes in college for it.

I believe because we call our language "Deutsch". The word derives from "Teutsch", which, in turn, derives from "Teutonisch" . . . .Sleepy
- which on the other hand is a latin Word (teutoni) meaning "people"... and also interesting, the teutones lived in Southern Scandinavia (Denmark) and together with the Cimbri tribe fought the Roman Empire long time ago...  Smile
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VALKO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2014 at 20:26
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Originally posted by VALKO VALKO wrote:

Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

How come there is no German up there. I can't "speak" it but i am taking classes in college for it.

I believe because we call our language "Deutsch". The word derives from "Teutsch", which, in turn, derives from "Teutonisch" . . . .Sleepy
- which on the other hand is a latin Word (teutoni) meaning "people"... and also interesting, the teutones lived in Southern Scandinavia (Denmark) and together with the Cimbri tribe fought the Roman Empire long time ago...  Smile
 
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In deed, Northman.
 
Of course the word "Teutoni" is a proper noun, and is in fact a germanic tribal name.  Like with so many Germanic tribes, they took their name from their most famous warrior-leader; in this case, "Teutobod".  

This tribal name was then transfered by the Romans to mean any Germanic tribe they encountered.  Just by the same process that all modern Germany are called "Allemagne" in the French, and "Alamania" Spanish, Portugese, Italian and Romanian languages.  The name gives deference to one well known Mega-Tribe called the "Alamani" who controlled much of the borderlands along the Upper Rhine. The Germanic Franken actually gave their name to the country of France after overrunning former Gaul.

 The Swedish Peninsula, (Gothic Peninsula), is believed to be the original homeland of all Germanic, (Gothic), peoples. These migrations, from out of Northern Europe, are fairly well documented. 

 For example the term "Westgoths" actually refers to a whole collection of Germanic tribes that migrated onto, and settled into, Western, Central and Southern Europe in successive waves; Their tribal names include: Visigoten, Vandalen, Burgundi, Alamani, Gepidae, Hermanae, (Germanae), Lombardi, Markomani, Chatten, Kimbri, Franken, Bayuvari, Swevi, and too many more to name.

The last Visigoth king of Spain was "Rodrigo" who's actual Germanic name was "Roderick", which roughly means "Rich in Audacity". "Rode" means "to clear away; mow down".  The English words "Rude" and "Rowdy" both derive from Germanic "Rode" and "Raud". Even the Spanish name "Raul" comes from this root.

Less is known for sure about the Ostrogoths who settled in Eastern Europe. We can read about the Tervingi, Greuthungi, and Vesi, who settled in the Balkan & Italian Peninsulas.  We also know about the Russ who established a powerful kingdon around Mosovy, and who are the forefathers of the Russian Peoples.

Important: None of these Germanic tribal names should be confused with well known Keltic Kingdoms which existed previously in every part of Europe, such as the Gauls, Helveti, Bohi, Iberians, Britons, Basques and many, many others.


Edited by VALKO - 18 Jan 2014 at 01:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VALKO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2014 at 20:54
Originally posted by Harburs Harburs wrote:

Originally posted by VALKO VALKO wrote:

Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

How come there is no German up there. I can't "speak" it but i am taking classes in college for it.

I believe because we call our language "Deutsch". The word derives from "Teutsch", which, in turn, derives from "Teutonisch" . . . .Sleepy
Good explanation. So Teutons were so important for Germans who named their language after them.

Yes, Scourge, this is about it.  Most southern Germanic tribes eventually became integrated into the Pagan Roman Empire and adapted the Latin language and linguistic customs. In other words:  The South Germans became fully Romainized. The word "Teutoni" had become the standard Latin term for all Germans in Pagan Roman times.


Edited by VALKO - 18 Jan 2014 at 01:23
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