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What if the Americas never existed?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2009 at 22:18
Originally posted by Ziegenbartami Ziegenbartami wrote:

....This is contrary to what I've heard, which is that native North American horses went extinct thousands of years ago and exist in the Americas today only because of their introduction by the Spanish conquistadors. Can you cite a source?
Here's mine:
http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/97/2/107
 
The horse developed in the Americas, then it migrated to Eurasia and went extinct here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2009 at 22:27
Originally posted by The Canadian Guy The Canadian Guy wrote:

OMG! I wouldn't be around to enlighten all of you! A world w/out Canada is a bad world. lol Since Canada did her fair share of inventions and perfections, like the telephone, the snowmobile, Maple Syrup and the best of all, HOCKEY! The second most popular sport in the world!
 
Hockey?  That was invented in Chile by the Mapuches LOL
 
 
Big smile
 
Well, in any case, my favorite Canadian inventor is Reginald Fessenden, the inventor of Radiotelephony, or the Radio AM if you preffer.
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 12 Dec 2009 at 22:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2009 at 22:34
Originally posted by The Canadian Guy The Canadian Guy wrote:

OMG! I wouldn't be around to enlighten all of you! A world w/out Canada is a bad world. lol Since Canada did her fair share of inventions and perfections, like the telephone, the snowmobile, Maple Syrup and the best of all, HOCKEY! The second most popular sport in the world!
On the snowmobile, I can only find information saying that it was made in Sayner, Wisconsin when Carl Eliason made the first prototype of the modern snowmobile. http://www.roadsideamerica.com/tip/1466 Though I guess it's like the Hamburger, seems to have birthplaces and claims everywhere.
 
But Hockey on the other hand, I don't even want to think about that... It's one of the most horrifying thoughts to ever come to mind!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2009 at 22:41
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:


Early horses lived in Europe, Asia and America.
 
That's a half truth. This chart maybe make matters clear
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2009 at 01:02
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

As usual, the Pinguin exaggerates. The paleontological ancestors of the horse and camel have been discovered in what is now the Western Hemisphere; however, the continents of then were not the land masses of today. So the conjecture is rather irrelevant and akin to postulating if there were no Africa there would be no homo sapiens sapiens.
 
As usual you don't understand anything Confused... And yes, without the Americas there would be no horses... Big smile
 
Hagerman Horse feathers! It's a zebra!
 
 
But then matters are not as simple as you would have it Pinguinito old boy:
 
 
However there is no paleontological evidence for any equus in N. America a brief 11 thousand years ago...but hey we have the llamas. Wonder why?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2009 at 01:24

From you own sources:

Based on fossil records, the genus appears to have originated in North America about 4 million years ago and spread to Eurasia (presumably by crossing the Bering land bridge) 2 to 3 million years ago. Following that original emigration, there were additional westward migrations to Asia and return migrations back to North America, as well as several extinctions of Equus species in North America.

The last prehistoric North American horses died out between 13,000 and 11,000 years ago, at the end of the Pleistocene, but by then Equus had spread to Asia, Europe, and Africa.

So, without the Americas... No horse.
 
With respect to llamas, they are nice creatures, but did you know that both llamas and camels ALSO evolved in the Americas? So, without the Americas we wouldn't have the Arab culture either LOL
 
File:Evolution evi mig.png


Edited by pinguin - 13 Dec 2009 at 01:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2009 at 01:33
But without the Americas the physical cicumstances could have been so different that the horse might never had died out in the Old World. Some of the older Old World forms might had survived.
Speculations, okey, but everything in the subject about what had happened if there were no Americas is speculation.


Edited by Carcharodon - 13 Dec 2009 at 01:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2009 at 01:42
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Carch, why, why why?
 
If we are going to cheer the tapirs on and discuss a humpless camel while perorating what came first the Mini or the Max, then just sit back, pop some corn and please...please refrain from citing Wikipedia...it's so pedestrian.
 


If you want some non Wiki information about the place where they found well preserved examples of propaleotherium, you can look at this one:

http://www.grube-messel.de/messel-d/messelstart3.php?menue1Kenn=5&menue2Kenn=50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2009 at 01:50
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:


Early horses lived in Europe, Asia and America.
 
That's a half truth. This chart maybe make matters clear
 
 


Interesting to see that later horses from Europe as propaleotherium is not included, but maybe it is meant that they were not direct ancestors to later horses. But still it should have been shown on the chart in the Old World section..

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Madgod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2009 at 01:55
As I said before, Inventions and perfections
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2009 at 02:21
Yes, Canada contributed with some interesting inventions and perfections. But the rest of the countries of the Americas did it too.
For instance, the ballpoint pen comes from Argentina, patented by Biro.
 
 
Archivo:Bolígrafo marca birome I.jpg
 
 
The first "European" that flew a plane... was Brazilian, Santos Du Mont
 
And the first patent for a color TV was by a Mexican, Camarema
 
 
He got the first patent for color TV.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2009 at 02:39
If the Americas had not existed Sweden would not have had the queen that it has.

Our Queen is Silvia Renate Sommerlath, she was born in Germany with a german father and a Brasilian mother. It is said that some part of her ancestry is Amerindian.



Queen Silvia in younger years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2009 at 02:54

It is a small world.

Born Silvia Renate Sommerlath, the Queen is the daughter of the German Walther Sommerlath, who as a businessman became the president of the Brazilian subsidiary of the Swedish steel-parts manufacturer Böhler-Uddeholm. Her mother was Alice Soares de Toledo, a Brazilian of Portuguese and remote Amerindian descent and a member of one of the families called "Os Quatrocentões", a reference to the early colonials who have been in South America for over 400 years.
 
With respect to Amerindian ancestry, all upper class Brazilian old-families pride of its remote Amerindian ancestors.


Edited by pinguin - 13 Dec 2009 at 02:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2009 at 06:46
I think I am going to throw up...the Ping and Carch going all gooey and making lovey-dovey with each other...
 
"What a revolting development this is..."
 
Can you imagine this!!!!
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Edited by drgonzaga - 13 Dec 2009 at 06:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2009 at 11:53
Nonsense. Penguins are from the Southern Hemisphere...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2009 at 12:41
Pinguin's chart makes one thing clear. We have no idea where the 'horse' originated. Even assuming that 'where did the horse originate?' is a well-formed question, which it isn't.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2009 at 17:33
Pinguin's chart shows clearly horse evolved in North America.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2009 at 19:15
It does nothing of the kind. It shows where and in what strata fossils identified as of 'horses' have been found.
 
Therefore it shows only (at the most) that the earliest fossils that someone or other has designated to be of a 'horse' have been found in the Americas. The designation of a 'horse' is even looser than the definition of a 'human' or an 'ape'. Moreover there's no proof or even evidence that later horses evolved from the creatures that produced those earliest fossils: they may well have all been evolutionary dead ends (like Neanderthals which are not forerunners of homo sapiens because they died out). The chart would be exactly the same if the North American 'horses' were genuine forerunners of modern horse or if they weren't.
 
Post hoc ergo propter hoc is a fallacy.


Edited by gcle2003 - 13 Dec 2009 at 19:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2009 at 21:29
Oh yes. If you mean the modern species of horses, probably developed in Eurasia. The point is simply that the evolution of the horses is rooted in the Americas. Therefore, without the Americas, there would be no horses. And not camels either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2009 at 22:27
Why do you assume we would have none of those things if there were no Americas (other than the organic bio things)?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2009 at 22:54
Of course civilisation could not have continued without the big contributions from the americas: Tobacco, Guinea Pigs, Disney.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2009 at 23:39
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Why do you assume we would have none of those things if there were no Americas (other than the organic bio things)?
 
Not only those things. Europe wouldn't be what is today without the Am
ericas. Samples:
 
(1) Democracy was put in practise in the modern world for the first time in the Americas. Without the U.S. experiment, Europe may still be ruled by kings Wink.
 
(2) The federal system was also introduced by the U.S. constitution, and political entities from the Soviet Union and the Russian Federation were based on that. And the inspiration for the federal system was the Native American Iroquois Confederation.
 
(3) Without the Americas men probably wouldn't have reached the moon as yet. Russians failed.
 
(4) Without the Americas, tropical Africa wouldn't be conquered by the colonial powers. For that you needed quinine, and quinine comes from the Andes.
 
(5) Without the Americas popular music may be frozen in Polka. No jazz, rock, salsa, tango and any of those exotic musical styles would have existed. The Beatles may have sounded like an Octoberfest band LOL... And of course forget about Pink Floyd.
 
(6) Without the Americas, Germany, Italy and Japan would have won WWII
 
It will continue.


Edited by pinguin - 13 Dec 2009 at 23:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2009 at 23:42
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

Of course civilisation could not have continued without the big contributions from the americas: Tobacco, Guinea Pigs, Disney.
 
Hardly. Without the money that Europe extracted from the Americas, that continent would have never converted in an economical, scientific and industrial power. You can't imagine how much money Europe substracted from around the world, from the silver of the Americas, to the goods of Asia, and the explotation of Africans.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2009 at 00:41
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

(1) Democracy was put in practise in the modern world for the first time in the Americas. Without the U.S. experiment, Europe may still be ruled by kings


Not true, the Swiss and Dutch already had functioning democracies before the United States was established. The people of los Estados Unidos borrowed heavily from established European political theory and political practice to create their democracy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ziegenbartami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2009 at 00:47
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

(6) Without the Americas, Germany, Italy and Japan would have won WWII

Without the United States, Germany would have likely been able to win World War ONE, which would have meant no World War Two.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2009 at 00:50
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
(1) Democracy was put in practise in the modern world for the first time in the Americas. Without the U.S. experiment, Europe may still be ruled by kings Wink.
 

Except the Swiss and Dutch examples, this is still wrong. 

When the USA was declared, the Swedish king was a puppet of the ruling parliament, which was elected by the people. The system was a constitutional monarchy, from which the modern Scandinavian version of democracy developed. Ironically it was essentially a two-party system, with a war-mongering conservative and a peace-striving liberal party taking turns of rulership.    

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Birddog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2009 at 00:54
Let me get this straight.
 
1. Early horse developed in Europe/Asia and the Americas.
2. These ancient accestors of the horse died out in Europe/Asia.
3. Some American horse migrated to Asia.
4. The horse in America died out.
5. The Spanish reintroduce the Horse to the Americas.
 
So if there no America, we would be missing an animal the died out hundreds of thousands of years ago?
 
I wonder if lacking horse the breading and use of Elphants in work and war could have been more wide spread? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2009 at 01:18
At the moment, I would be musing that no "Americas" no Barak Obama every fricking day on the telly! Sometimes his platitudes are as vacuous (often but not always) as the purported role of the Americas on Europe being bandied by the Penguin. Good alternative history always reaches the conclusion of the present, it's just the road that changes not the end of the journey. But let's get to the bones put forth by Pinguin so as to discover they have no meat!
 
(1) Democracy was put in practise in the modern world for the first time in the Americas. Without the U.S. experiment, Europe may still be ruled by kings
 
Really? The United States is not a democracy and about as close as we get to this little bane on Aristotelian politics are the cantonal arrangements of the Swiss--minarets anyone? 
 
(2) The federal system was also introduced by the U.S. constitution, and political entities from the Soviet Union and the Russian Federation were based on that. And the inspiration for the federal system was the Native American Iroquois Confederation.
 
Anyone for Swiss cheese? Interestingly the Dreizehn Orte predate the Thirteen Colonies by some 400 years! By the way, the Founding Fathers of the United States knew their Swiss history! Best you read up on that one Pingui, my boy.
 
(3) Without the Americas men probably wouldn't have reached the moon as yet. Russians failed.
 
Why not the French after all moon dreams were a peculiarly European phenomenon? In all probability the space race would have been a tripartite affair between the English, the French, and the Germans! Science was their thing you know...the rockets that did it had their foundation in German designs (Von Braun would still be around, you know--not to mention Jules Verne).
 
(4) Without the Americas, tropical Africa wouldn't be conquered by the colonial powers. For that you needed quinine, and quinine comes from the Andes.
 
Quinine may be the zing in your tonic water but it does not cure malaria nor prevent it. By the way, malaria was just as common in Europe as in Africa and we really do not want to get into the less than stellar politics of Peru concerning the cinchona bark. The names to know here are not American at all: La Condamine, Pelletier and Caventou. If you know your Tropical Africa history, the Portuguese were already swarming there prior to the discovery of America!
 
(5) Without the Americas popular music may be frozen in Polka. No jazz, rock, salsa, tango and any of those exotic musical styles would have existed. The Beatles may have sounded like an Octoberfest band LOL... And of course forget about Pink Floyd.
 
As evidenced by the other thread, I'll be kind here Pinguin and simply state that it is obvious musicology is not your forte!
 
(6) Without the Americas, Germany, Italy and Japan would have won WWII
 
Now that one is quite a stretch! Try this one out: Without the distraction of the Americas, Kaiser Karl V would have consolidated his various inheritances into a multi-national empire and effectively confronted the Turk and then given ear to a new Crusade. What with all those monks roaming around, what better way to focus their religious fervor than a missionary effort to the Saracens!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2009 at 04:37
Dr. G: In re" "Why not the French after all moon dreams were a peculiarly European phenomenon? In all probability the space race would have been a tripartite affair between the English, the French, and the Germans! Science was their thing you know...the rockets that did it had their foundation in German designs (Von Braun would still be around, you know--not to mention Jules Verne)."

Well, Verne would have had to make his lunar explorers veterans of the Franco-Prussian War, or somesuch. Not sure how that would have gone over with the public, seeing that France lost that one. (But, it did give the Colonial Infantry "Bazeilles" and the "maison de la derniere cartouche". And it did set the tone for French colonial expansion.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2009 at 04:52
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
Not only those things. Europe wouldn't be what is today without the Am
ericas. Samples:
 
(1) Democracy was put in practise in the modern world for the first time in the Americas. Without the U.S. experiment, Europe may still be ruled by kings Wink.
 
Europe was riddled with city states that were representative republics (some with universal manhood suffrage) as well as a vibrant movement for representative democracy. Not to mention the fact that the US system was built on the British model and that blacks, Catholics, jews and more than half the poor protestant whites couldn't vote in most states untill the 1830s and beyond.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
(3) Without the Americas men probably wouldn't have reached the moon as yet. Russians failed.
 
 
Well that is a testament of the genius of the Russians who saved money and actually sent a remote controlled drone there. In addition to the facts that drgonzaga mentioned.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
 
(6) Without the Americas, Germany, Italy and Japan would have won WWII
 
 
Italy lost the war against the Brits before the german cavalry came to the rescue and the Germans failed to force Britain to surrender in the year that it was alone in the war nor did they manage to distroy the USSR which with all due respect, won 70% of the war.
 
Al-Jassas


Edited by Al Jassas - 14 Dec 2009 at 04:55
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