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What Do We Really Know?

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    Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 13:19
I found what I think is a very interesting article at

The article explores some of the mysteries of the antiquities which scientists have tried unsucessfully to explain over centuries.

While these have been commented upon by many over the years, the fact is that the explanations don't really hold water.

Quote Mention that an individual named Marco Polo who went to China in the 1200s likely did not exist and people will get angry. They will lie and use deceit to try to prove he existed, even though outside of one book written by the fiction author Rustichello da Pisa, there is no evidence of his existence. 

How can this be? A foriegn trader arriving in China unannounced would surely have been the subject of some written record by the Chinese and also by the man himself. But it seems that there is a serious lack of evidence of this event.

Quote How could Christopher Columbus have discovered the Americas if there were already millions of people there?

Of course his "discovery"  was from purely a European perspective.

Adding to this, there apparently is evidence of cocaine use by ancient Egyptians, centuries, if not millenia, before the Vikings, Columbus or any other European. There is no evidence of cocaine cultivation in North Africa, and cocaine is recognised as being indigenous to South America. How did the Egyptians obtain their cocaine? Did they travel to South America, or did South Americans, or someone else take it to Egypt?

Quote The following historical accounts should be seriously reconsidered to establish a more accurate view of planetary history: Numerous megalithic sites defy mainstream explanations.  Human beings created such structures, and today, even with our modern technological advances we cannot duplicate their achievements. Such structures include the Great Pyramid in Egypt, insofar as its creation and precision.

Between 2.3 and 2.6 million white limestone blocks weighing between two and 15 tons each were moved across great distances and cut with laser-like precision. They were then stacked to create a highly polished, shiny pyramid. Moving such weights more than 100 feet into the air would prove difficult and dangerous today, yet the pyramid’s builders were able to do so with astonishing precision and (if the Egyptologists’ consensus of a 20-year building process is correct) speed.  If workers labored 10 hours every day, yearly, without a single day’s break, and provided that there were no errors or accidents that set them back, they would have to move 31 perfectly-cut blocks into the mathematically precise positions every hour. This is not possible today, so we have no idea what technology was used in its creation.  We also do not understand how the blocks were moved and lifted, because every theory involving ramps and cranes is discredited if weights and numbers alone are considered.

Similar questions have been raised in connection with the South American magalyths. Blocks of stone weighing many tons, cut to precision and moved over a thousand miles, across very rough country, and stacked with precision impossible with modern day technology.

All explanations including ramps have been discounted, so how were these structures built with such precision, with materials not found in the region?

The article touches on several other unexplained mysteries of a similar nature, such as the statue of Rameses, the face of which is portrayed with both sides of the face precisely identacle, so much so that it is suggested that the face was sculpted using some sort of template.

Over the centuries, we've been educated to believe some things about these great mysteries and to accept the conclusions of some clever people, but were they simply guess work?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dark Warrior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 15:04
Well as an avid supporter of those trained in the scientific and historical methods...I would hope not. Otoh, those however have only been around a little over a hundred years insofar as practical application is concerned.

So who knows....perhaps the Voodoo witch doctors and Shamans of the rainforest made it all up to secure a superior position within the mass.

Seeking out power and arranging the facts or attempting to justify ones attempt/actions/representations/defense of action Or lack there of might well be the basis of myth and legend.


Nothing new. As I keep reporting. And actually my old friend Solomon reported the same long before I did.

''The thing that has been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done; and there is no new thing under the sun. ''

Eccl 1:9 KJV 2000

Edited by Dark Warrior - 19 Oct 2017 at 15:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 16:56
Originally posted by Dark Warrior Dark Warrior wrote:

Well as an avid supporter of those trained in the scientific and historical methods...I would hope not. Otoh, those however have only been around a little over a hundred years insofar as practical application is concerned.

So who knows....perhaps the Voodoo witch doctors and Shamans of the rainforest made it all up to secure a superior position within the mass.

Seeking out power and arranging the facts or attempting to justify ones attempt/actions/representations/defense of action Or lack there of might well be the basis of myth and legend.


Nothing new. As I keep reporting. And actually my old friend Solomon reported the same long before I did.

''The thing that has been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done; and there is no new thing under the sun. ''

Eccl 1:9 KJV 2000

Quote Well as an avid supporter of those trained in the scientific and historical methods...I would hope not. Otoh, those however have only been around a little over a hundred years insofar as practical application is concerned.

You can't be serious. Science been around for only a little over a hundred years? Phooey!!!

Quote So who knows....perhaps the Voodoo witch doctors and Shamans of the rainforest made it all up to secure a superior position within the mass.

Now I know you're kidding. Witch Doctors and Shamans didn't author these stories which, until current day, were a part of accepted history.

Quote Nothing new. As I keep reporting. And actually my old friend Solomon reported the same long before I did.  
''The thing that has been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done; and there is no new thing under the sun. ''

Eccl 1:9 KJV 2000

And he was wrong. Each day brings new scientific revelations never imagined by Solomon, or many wise men after him.

We should never quote biblical passages as examples of truth.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dark Warrior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 17:20
I was in reference to the Scientific method which HAS not been around for centuries.

As for the science of Solomon's day it had no method as I have been taught it. So consequently it's not surprising that revelations of the day continued to be thought divine intervention at best. Luck at worst.

As for not quoting scripture as truth...you do little charity then to a number of quotations still revered today by many.

''Thou shalt not kill''..for example.

''Now I know you're kidding. Witch Doctors and Shamans didn't author these stories which, until current day, were a part of accepted history''.

That had nothing to do with the intent of the comment that drove the response....matter of fact I would agree....but it's the 'why' of how they developed and were accepted prior to the method that remains the key.

And they may or may not personally wrote the stories. But you err grievously when you assume that 'oral historical recollections' of the aforementioned were not later transcribed into the written vernacular.

Certainly by those who studied them. If not how then did they first appear.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 18:32
Quote And they may or may not personally wrote the stories. But you err grievously when you assume that 'oral historical recollections' of the aforementioned were not later transcribed into the written vernacular.

You are wrong. I never said that oral historical recollections were not later transcribed into the written vernacular.

In fact, that is precisely what did happen. But with the passage of time, the oral recollections were embellished to the extent that actual truth became severely tarnished.

I'm sorry, but much of your post doesn't make sense to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Windemere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2017 at 06:05
Another scientific mystery is, How did monkeys reach South America, in the New World ?   Monkeys evolved in Africa, in the Old World, and they evidently have a fossil record there going back many millions of years. The continents of Africa and South America apparently diverged from 90 million to 120 million years ago. Yet the fossil record of monkeys in the New World, in South America, only goes back a few million years, a comparatively short time. One theory is that a few founding monkeys may have come over on a raft of floating vegetation.  Yet these monkeys would have had to reproduced, created a founding population, and then genetically  diverged into the many different species of South American monkeys in quite a short time, which is somewhat difficult to believe. I don't think that science has ever adequately explained it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2017 at 08:58
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.  Bones deteriorate at different rates in different climes.  Jungle is rather a poor environs for preservation, especially small bones like those of a monkey.
I suspect that it was the absence of fossils due to the acid or alkali in the soil and not the absence of monkeys that, that explains why there does not seem like any monkeys before a certain time in South America.  Of course I could be wrong, I have been wrong before;)

toyomotor, you say that the Egyptians had cocaine, but I severely doubt that since cocaine is the refined product of the coca leaf.  Maybe you mean that Egyptians used coca medicinally, but I find that hard to accept considering all you do is proclaim there is evidence, you don't make any effort to explain it.  You are "traveling" with the ball, running with it in basketball without the intermediate steps of dribbling it.  That is a foul and that is not how you play the sport.  So be a good sport, and fill in the intermediate steps.  What exactly are the ancient Egyptians dealing with?  Cocaine, Coca, something else???  How do you know that (how do "they" know that)?  Does your conclusion follow from the premises, does there conclusion (the Egyptologists) naturally follow from their observations.  And how in the hell did primitive man make tapioca pudding without poisoning himself? (process of elimination??)

I think that you, toyomotor, think that we are much smarter than ancient and primitive societies, and therefore we should already know and have figured out everything they have done, and how they did it.  Personally I think the is an illusion and hubris, to think that we know everything they did +more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2017 at 10:38
Originally posted by Windemere Windemere wrote:

Another scientific mystery is, How did monkeys reach South America, in the New World ?   Monkeys evolved in Africa, in the Old World, and they evidently have a fossil record there going back many millions of years. The continents of Africa and South America apparently diverged from 90 million to 120 million years ago. Yet the fossil record of monkeys in the New World, in South America, only goes back a few million years, a comparatively short time. One theory is that a few founding monkeys may have come over on a raft of floating vegetation.  Yet these monkeys would have had to reproduced, created a founding population, and then genetically  diverged into the many different species of South American monkeys in quite a short time, which is somewhat difficult to believe. I don't think that science has ever adequately explained it.

Thank you Windemere, good to hear from you.

I agree,there are many more mysteries which bedevil us, perhaps, one day, our questions will be answered, but your post adds to the suggestion of "international or intercontinental" travel much earler than we realise.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Dec 2018 at 12:09
I watched a documentary TV program last night, entitled "The Vikings Unearthed".

It featured an American Archaeologist, Sarah Parcak, who studies the earth's surface, using newly developed infrared satellite technology in order to find traces of ancient civilisations. She had proven her theories by the revelation of an ancient Viking building next to an existing farm in Greenland.

Now, I was amazed at the revelations that LIDAR has produced, but this goes even further. This particular lady is studying the Viking history in North America, the well known Vinland in L'Anse Aux Meadows, Newfoundland.

Working the hypothesis that the Vikings could have travelled further south along the American coastline, she scanned an area  at Point Rosee, south western Newfoundland. She and her team excavated the site, and found traces of iron ore sl*g, and curious parallel dark lines in the soil, which could turn out to be ancient building turf walls.

The investigation is continuing, but it certainly appears that this could be the site of a Viking settlement.

For many years, there has been speculation on the Vikings travels to the New World. It's proven that they did reach the North American continent, but didn't stay too long due to hostile natives.

In my mind, it's highly possible, if not probable that the Vikings did, in fact, sail south along the coast. Where they stopped on their voyages and for how long, could be revealed by Sarah Parcak's ongoing investigation.


Edited by toyomotor - 03 Dec 2018 at 12:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vhedza1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2018 at 05:55
This is a very important question and subject which inevitably leads to speculation...I for one have come to conclude that there are some useful answers to be found in the Ancient Astronaut Theory and write about it regularly for this reason in the hope that some day people will listen.

Here's a link to an Archive of Articles on the subject beginning with Human Origins...You can make up your own mind but I dont think the Theory is a complete waste of time:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2018 at 11:58
Kinda reminds me of "Stargate" which is fun, but historically/scientifically speaking pretty bogus.  There are things that are mysteries from antiquity that we still haven't fathomed, but they don't involve our types of high tech appearing at the beginnings of human history.  There are granulation techniques for gold jewelry that we don't know how they did it.  That means, they could do it and we cannot.  The Incans fused together stones for walls, probably with some kind of acid, but we don't necessarily know.  That is why they say you cannot put a blade between the stones.  
A different perspective can be given by the Antikythera device which is a unique artifact, so is the Derveni papyrus, both of which give unique views of the ancient Greek world that we otherwise would not have.  The ancient astronaut theory seems to be wildly speculative, but if it gives elementary school children an interest in great antiquity, then great.  You Vhedza1, however, seem to be a little older than that age demographic.  It is fun in modern mythology, but personally I would not subscribe to it as a logical, rational account.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vhedza1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2018 at 12:05
I can see why you would say that but in reality despite dismissing the Theory as Pseudo-Science in general, you and most others don't actually address the claims it makes on specific issues...I don't think everything it says is correct but it does bring up some interesting questions and answers which have not been convincingly dismissed despite being denigrated...Denigration isn't logic or evidence though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 08:12
We didn't see the now obvious puzzle pieces that make up the land masses. It would follow that the search for the missing link will be answered in an obvious way. The different races probablyly represent different hominids who evolved alongside weather conditions and an available diet that guided their physical appearance and abilities.
The joy in reading about these developments is indescribable! I understand why you want to know.


http://https://www.livescience.com/64189-neanderthals-and-humans-interbreeding.html
11Scientists initially thought that interbreeding among the two groups was more isolated to a particular place and time — specifically, when they encountered each other in western Eurasia shortly after modern humans left Africa. This idea stemmed from the fact that the genomes of modern humans from outside Africa are only about 2 percent Neanderthal, on average.

Subsequent research, however, has found that Neanderthal ancestry is 12 to 20 percent higher in modern East Asians compared to modern Europeans. [In Images: The First Bone from a Neanderthal-Denisovan Hybrid]



Edited by Vanuatu - 06 Dec 2018 at 08:13
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 09:05
The point is, I believe, that as soon as new facts are uncovered by science, they are quickly made redundant by even newer findings.

The sum of our knowledge about our own past is finite, AMH, Neanderthals and Denisovans all coming into play as part of the global admixture, but, are there other ancestors as yet undiscovered?

And, as I've posted in other topics, I don't accept the interpretations put on some petroglyphs, the methodology behind the construction of some quite fabulous buildings and cities, nor the similarities in construction at the opposite ends of the earth.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 10:40
I think ancients (and prehistorics) knew "things" that we cannot imagine.  What did they know?  Well in general we cannot imagine.  But, we get hints around the edges.  But, it is not space ships or nuclear war, for one thing those are for our era, the other thing is that we can imagine them.  I would be more inclined to accept Shamans running into other spirits (from other "places") in the astral plane then something as mundane as space ships making the pyramids.  We think that we could build a pyramid (Egyptian or otherwise), but the fact is, we couldn't organize an entire society to do it like they did.

If there had been a nuclear war in the last 10,000 years, in the last 20,000 years, the residual radiation would still be around.  Don't try to say everything about your supposed ancient high tech civilization, say one thing and establish that.  I would call it the ancient astronaut hypothesis, it never gets to the level of certainty of a theory, much less a law.  It seems like a rather shaky hypothesis.  But, you should realize that the burden of proof is not on the skeptic to prove it wrong, but the advocate to demonstrate it has some merit.  Don't take it personally, but I don't think you are there yet.

But, I really do find such stories as fitting for children, that is not as much as a dismissal as you might think.  Myths are real and true in their own way.  Not so much a factical way, but in the form of shaping and forming children's (and big children's) imaginations.  Pointing towards what is possible.

But I am not going to tell you what you want to hear, just because you want it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2018 at 02:30
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2018 at 21:06
Quote Have you heard the story of Scota?

Yes, Irish History is one of my keen interests.

I have heard of Scota, daughter of Ptolemy, and I've read about Milesius (or Mil Espana) said to be one of the early conquerors of Ireland.

Just looking at the Milesius story, forget about the reports that he spied Ireland from a place in Europe, depending on which story one reads, Milesius was one of Ptolomey's generals, the "Espana" refers to his conquests in Spain, and his appointment as a governor.

While Franciscosan mocks me over some of my beliefs, he can't post evidence that I, or my sources are wrong.

I still think it probable that the Egyptians could have explored the eastern coast of Africa, and Europe by way of the Mediterranean Sea would have been an easy trip.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 07:18
toyomotor, look at Herodotus.  There is an account of, in lieu of execution, an officer struck a deal with the king that he would go around Africa.  I do not remember whether he rounded the horn, or not, but he came back and told the king that he had gone as far as he could go, and that the sun set in the North.  The king, thinking that he was an outrageous liar, had him executed.  It might have been the Egyptian King, and the officer probably was Egyptian or Phoenician.

But the open ocean would have been much more difficult then puttering around the Mediterranean.  I don't think "easy trip" would be the correct assessment.  Then again, I am a landlubber.

Look at Pytheas of Massalia (Marseilles, France) for a Greek who travelled to England, Scotland and maybe sighted Iceland then over to about Jutland.  He wasn't believed either about the long days and short nights.  He is 'refuted' in Strabo, the Geographer.  Probably 300s BC(?)

You are correct, I cannot prove a negative.  Often what you speculate about, is IMO tenuous at best.  Or sometimes, you may be correct, but we have no firm basis to say so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 11:39
Yes, I speculate in order to get a response.

My beliefs are based upon reading about historic matters, sometimes rejecting the articles, sometimes accepting them. When I say rejecting, I mean such statements as "could not have possibly......"

Archaeology has proven me correct on some issues, while the jury is still out on others.

What we don't know is just how much we don't know about historic matters. Science is developing on an almost weekly basis, and we are learning that all of the past suppositions are not necessarily the case.

I keep and open mind on many issues (such as alien visits), and will continue to do so.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2018 at 10:42
I think that if aliens existed and if they could visit us, then they would be more advanced then we are, at least in many ways.  If aliens were 1000 years more advanced then we are, or 10,000 or 1,000,000 years then I think that they could be among us, and we would not know.  I am not just talking invisibility, I am talking about perceptual blindness on our part.  We like to think that we see the world, "as it is" but if you study perception, you will see that we don't.  Call it optical illusions or what not, the fact is we are blind to a lot of things, and if aliens were sufficiently advance, they could use those holes in our perception, to be around us without our knowledge.  If, after all, that was what they wanted to do.

So, toyomotor, if there were aliens among us, I am not sure we could ever know it, given that they (if they existed) would be more advanced than we are.  They might not be more advanced than we are, in certain ways, but if they got here, then chances are that they are advanced enough in someways to pull the wool of our eyes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2018 at 17:40
They could well be very much more intelligent that AMH, who's to know?

I agree, they could be living among us, in the form of AMH of any country you want to name.

While alien existence may be a bit of a fantasy, it may well not be. Who's to say? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2018 at 09:04
AMH,
Armadillos Mating with Hippos?
Augmented Machine Humans?

wth is amh? besides a tla?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2018 at 21:49
Quote I think that if aliens existed and if they could visit us, then they would be more advanced then we are, at least in many ways.  If aliens were 1000 years more advanced then we are, or 10,000 or 1,000,000 years then I think that they could be among us, and we would not know.  I am not just talking invisibility, I am talking about perceptual blindness on our part.  We like to think that we see the world, "as it is" but if you study perception, you will see that we don't.  Call it optical illusions or what not, the fact is we are blind to a lot of things, and if aliens were sufficiently advance, they could use those holes in our perception, to be around us without our knowledge.  If, after all, that was what they wanted to do. So, toyomotor, if there were aliens among us, I am not sure we could ever know it, given that they (if they existed) would be more advanced than we are.  They might not be more advanced than we are, in certain ways, but if they got here, then chances are that they are advanced enough in someways to pull the wool of our eyes.
 
The problem is of course our own psychological anthropomorphisms which tend to make us see 'aliens' in certain categories.
 
Last night I watched one of those UFO programs which brought in scientists and other experts to dissect a UFO and figure out how it would work. I could not believe how narrow minded the result was. They did nothing more than extrapolate from our own technology and apply it it to our own parameters and restrictions. So their space flight was physical, made possible by machines that suppressed inertia and gravity, and quite revealing about how the scientific community are viewing these issues. What if the aliens had invented some kind of quantum polarisation? Then rapid speed and vector changes are technically possible because nothing is actually moving, merely 'tunnelling' short distances very rapidly. Just my own little speculation but I hope you see the point. I did like the way they pointed at the origin of 'flying saucers' which appears to be a phenomenon of public imagination as opposed to actual experience.
 
The truth is that if aliens exist and arrive here, they have their own agenda and opinions, or even thought processes, thus would not necessarily comply with our own ideas of relationships and motives. How do you seek a deal with a species that doesn't perceive or think in the same way? Whether they would be able to overwhelm us is largely paranoia however true, bearing in mind that vast fleets of alien military force are science fiction. There is a destabilising factor of a much more advanced species contacting another and this applies even if the arrivals are few in number - our own history shows how damaging such contact can be.
 
And about our own perceptions of reality - our preconceptions are geared to the internal image we observe with. The world we see is a product of our brain's filtering and composition of the raw data our senses provide. Thus the world around us has no actual appearance as such. We can perceive certain wavelengths of light reflecting off objects, but colour is a sensory trick our brains use to make our observation more useful for survival and interaction. Light is merely of a certain wavelength. Our brains colour it in. Also we're hampered by our own biological and social behaviours, and when imagining the alien we often do nothing more than extrapolate the human. After all, Star Trek has successfully depicted a humanoid universe for decades.


Edited by caldrail - 27 Dec 2018 at 21:50
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 2018 at 13:05
I think that you are explaining the universe as originating in dead matter, which is the lowest common denominator.  Maybe we should see the universe as alive.  Crystals being a basic organization of life, vegetative soul, animate soul, and rational soul.  I am not quite sure what you mean by "no actual appearance as such."  There are commonalities going back along way in the evolutionary tree, bilateral symmetry or before that, radial symmetry (starfish), I think aliens from elsewhere would have some of those commonalities with us.  The visible light spectrum has the coincidence that opaque things are usually solid (except clouds and fog), and transparent things are usually gas or liquid (things we can go through), except for ice.  It is a very useful "coincidence".  I think alien evolution would "react" to such an environs in a way similar to we do, by "seeing."  Although seeing might take up more (or less) epistemological center stage than it does for us.

Insects can see color, that is why flowers are so varied.

We developed physics because of astronomy and the wide open sky.  Would a race under permanent cloud cover be able to do so, (or an equivalent), I am not sure.

Ultimately we can not say what an alien would be like, nor what an alien's world (perception) would be like.  But we can say what it might be like.  We are starting to become more aware of our environs and how it has shaped us, likewise we can get some idea of how aliens might have been shaped by their environment.  If there are aliens, which considering there is one example of life in the universe, why do we think that makes it likely that there must be two or more?  I have a friend who says he would believe in God if we are it.  Personally, I don't see how that follows.

One way to look at Martin Heidegger's Being and Time is as a philosophical anthropology, what does it take to be a Dasein, a being (seen) for which there is a there (Da) or a that (Das).  Heidegger elsewhere says something interesting, he says that "we do not see, because we have eyes. but rather we have eyes, because we see."  Would aliens "see?", whatever that means I would say yes.    


Edited by franciscosan - 28 Dec 2018 at 13:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2018 at 02:21
A recent experiment shows the capacity of young chimpanzees to memorize a sequence of numbers, up to 19 digits, after seeing the number pattern for milliseconds. Scientists think the memory is necessary for plotting the location of branches so quick movement through the trees is possible. 

We may be seeing things for milliseconds but if we can't remember them it would be as if we had not seen. This may be too much Star Trek but the idea of a "cloaking " device has been explored extensively in science fiction and it has a ring of possibility



Edited by Vanuatu - 29 Dec 2018 at 02:24
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 2018 at 07:30
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I think that you are explaining the universe as originating in dead matter, which is the lowest common denominator.  Maybe we should see the universe as alive.  Crystals being a basic organization of life, vegetative soul, animate soul, and rational soul.  I am not quite sure what you mean by "no actual appearance as such."  There are commonalities going back along way in the evolutionary tree, bilateral symmetry or before that, radial symmetry (starfish), I think aliens from elsewhere would have some of those commonalities with us.  The visible light spectrum has the coincidence that opaque things are usually solid (except clouds and fog), and transparent things are usually gas or liquid (things we can go through), except for ice.  It is a very useful "coincidence".  I think alien evolution would "react" to such an environs in a way similar to we do, by "seeing."  Although seeing might take up more (or less) epistemological center stage than it does for us.

All systems exist as as subsets of larger systems, and what are systems? The first biological creatures differentiated rough/smooth or uniform, nonuniform etc.  That began the creation of multiple systems. Patterns of patterns and systems of patterns. All life is pushing boundaries and those who break boundaries are at least temporarily edging out the competition. Our earth, the biological system, offers us a connection to a unified field of information. You could call it spirit and it would be accurate. 



Edited by Vanuatu - 30 Dec 2018 at 00:32
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2019 at 13:41
Quote All systems exist as as subsets of larger systems, and what are systems? The first biological creatures differentiated rough/smooth or uniform, nonuniform etc.  That began the creation of multiple systems. Patterns of patterns and systems of patterns. All life is pushing boundaries and those who break boundaries are at least temporarily edging out the competition. Our earth, the biological system, offers us a connection to a unified field of information. You could call it spirit and it would be accurate.

That may well be the case on Earth, but it ain't necessarily so if we assume that other inter-galactic life forms exist.

The evolution of earthly creatures has been tracked, studied and annotated by many recognised scientists, but we won't know about other life forms until one is found by humankind.

I don't know if other intergalactic life forms exist, but I'm not prepared to say that they don't.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 12:06
The laws of nature are the same everywhere.  The same forces would be at work in an alien environ, some to a lesser degree, some to a greater degree.  But, yes we are limited in our imagination.  As G'Kar said, "every culture has the equivalent of Swedish meatballs."  (Babylon 5)

There are people who study xenobiology, or in other words, what aliens might be like.  Hopefully they have a day job too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 13:33
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

The laws of nature are the same everywhere.  The same forces would be at work in an alien environ, some to a lesser degree, some to a greater degree.  But, yes we are limited in our imagination.  As G'Kar said, "every culture has the equivalent of Swedish meatballs."  (Babylon 5)

There are people who study xenobiology, or in other words, what aliens might be like.  Hopefully they have a day job too.

We don't know that the laws of nature, as we know them, exist on other habitated planets.

And that's one thing we know for sure-we don't know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 14:03
The laws of physics are uniform for the entire universe, now we might not know all the laws, but astronomically and physically, they are uniform.  Chemistry is uniform, and chemistry is divided into two parts, inorganic and organic chemistry.  Organic chemistry involves carbon which is exceptionally versatile in forming long complex molecules.  Silicon is a distant second as far as forming molecules for life.

Gravity, stellar fusion, magnetism, spectra, as far as we can see (both physically and conceptually) are uniform.  Physics sets the stage for chemistry, chemistry sets the stage for biology (as we know it).  Again, Silicon might be a possible basis for life, but it is nowhere as versatile as carbon.

Of course, there is the possibilities of other universes, with the rules being different there, but as far as  our universe is concerned, the laws are uniform, and if there are other multiverses,  while the rules might be different in other multiverses, we have no reason to suspect that within each different universe, the rules would be uniform (although different than ours) for that particular universe.
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