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Trump & foreign matters

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toyomotor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 2017 at 03:14
I guess we'll never know.
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 2017 at 21:17
That is also a "problem" with elections.  You don't necessarily know what would have happened, if a different path had been taken.  But people have intellect and imagination, which means we can speculate, and for some humans not only can we speculate, but we feel a need to do so, and cannot help but to do so, even if it is useless.  

If Hillary had won, etc, etc. (yada, yada, yada)

English and other Indo-European languages have the subjunctive.  "If I had gone to the store, I would have bought a candy-bar."  A speaker of Vietnamese, for example, would probably not make this statement, and would find it confusing.  They would say, "but I didn't go to the store (and by implication, I don't know if I would have bought a candy-bar)?!?  There is an advantage to that failure to grasp the subjunctive, they don't continue "beating a dead horse," but seek to get on with things.  Instead of dwelling on how things may have gone otherwise, they apply themselves to their current situation, and work to better themselves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2017 at 01:06
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

D---! how clever of Barack Obama!  Going waterskiing in the Caribbean.  How diabolical!  The press is _not_ in league with the democrats, choosing the democrats would require them to be _conscious_ of their attitude, and really, they are not _conscious_ of their behavior.
Gone but not forgotten. Obama's whole life has been about others doing his bidding. Why do you think Valerie Jarret moved in??
You have no way of knowing the conscious awareness of other people. Democrats persistently beat the anti-Trump drum and it's not because they are in trance.

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

 It is more like a reflex action, for the 'liberal' press there is the mass of "ordinary" people, which includes people like Leon Trotsky, and then there are those "right wing radicals."  It is not that the press is "pro-liberal" and "anti-conservative," they perceive it as 'pro-normal' and anti-radical (right).
Again pro-normal? Who are you to say? Do normal people complain about global warming while leaving the largest carbon footprint possible, the democratic strongholds of the country are the worst polluters yet they cry about trees. You buy that nonsense? Pfffft

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

 Well, toyomotor, you are right, if we had pushed beyond the Yalu River, we wouldn't be having this problem today, we would be having problems from going to war with China, and Russia probably would have joined in (despite historical animosities) on China's side.  I don't think that Russia had gotten the A-Bomb yet (?), [actually, Soviet Union detonated its first nuke in 1949] so 'all' we would have to worry about is a million-zillion screaming Chinese, and maybe a million Russians, and a militant North Korea.  We would be fighting with surplus WWII equipment, whereas Russia had gone on to develop, for example, the AK-47 (Kalashnikov assault rifle, developed in 1947).
We never declared war on China during the Korean War, but considered the Chinese forces in North Korea, "volunteers."  Declaring war on China would have opened up a whole new can of worms.  
Oh so NoKo's are different from Vietnamese? In their case you can tell us what would have happened?

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Do you know the story of how the Korean War became a UN police action?  Remember that the US and ANZUS and NATO were not the only ones involved on the South Korean side.  That would probably not happen "next" time.

Of course, we should say that we are still, albeit rather elliptically, talking about Donald Trump, because no man is an island, and events do not happen in a vacuum, etc.... 
And how do any political commentators find anything at all to say if they do not compare administrations?
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2017 at 02:07
We learn by comparing and contrasting.  But there must be some 'thing' to compare and contrast, and unless we treat that thing as a thing (something separate, that we don't quite understand), instead of as an extension of our own beliefs, concerns, whims, we will fail to understand.

There is a limitation of compare or contrast.  If we are too close, we won't be able to get perspective.  In general, we are too close to Obama or Hillary Clinton, over time history will give us distance, a better perspective.  But Obama has put his mark on the United States, and I think that it is a folly thinking that we could erase it.  Nor is everything about him bad, like all Presidents, he is a mixed bag.

President Obama (and Hillary) were pretty mediocre on foreign policy.  You have to have content, to make a comparison or contrast, and I don't really see that much content.  Then again, I don't see much content on Donald Trump's foreign agenda either, just a lot of personal whims.  So maybe you're right, we can compare nothing to nothing....Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2017 at 03:20
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

We learn by comparing and contrasting.  But there must be some 'thing' to compare and contrast, and unless we treat that thing as a thing (something separate, that we don't quite understand), instead of as an extension of our own beliefs, concerns, whims, we will fail to understand.
If "we" means the american public then we have much contrast in Trump's stated policy to Obama's. 92% of americans would vote Trump again, actually securin the poular vote if elections were held today. 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/04/23/trump-voters-dont-have-buyers-remorse-but-some-hillary-clinton-voters-do/?utm_term=.e6abc7ec25b9

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

There is a limitation of compare or contrast.  If we are too close, we won't be able to get perspective.  In general, we are too close to Obama or Hillary Clinton, over time history will give us distance, a better perspective.  But Obama has put his mark on the United States, and I think that it is a folly thinking that we could erase it.  Nor is everything about him bad, like all Presidents, he is a mixed bag.
Sorry , you will have to demonstrate which part of Obama administration didn't suck.


Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

President Obama (and Hillary) were pretty mediocre on foreign policy.  You have to have content, to make a comparison or contrast, and I don't really see that much content.  Then again, I don't see much content on Donald Trump's foreign agenda either, just a lot of personal whims.  So maybe you're right, we can compare nothing to nothing....Clap
Obama had 8 years+ but democrats & RHINO's have already pegged Trump as a loser and continue to spin his presidency as such. If you don't see the contrast then it may be time for new rose colored glasses. I guess you are OK with Obama's anointed miscreants destroying opportunity for free speech.
http://BERKELEY, Calif. — Ann Coulter’s speech at the University of California at Berkeley was canceled. But the debate and hostility that were unleashed by the controversy over the conservative commentator’s planned event continued here Thursday. Demonstrators who participated in other recent violent clashes on Berkeley’s streets began gathering at a city park and on campus Thursday to fight for free speech or to protest hate speech. Many were geared up — with helmets, shields and padding — for a confrontation at the park, just blocks from the campus and Berkeley High School. And the possibility of violence caused authorities to turn out in force. But the conservative and liberal activists mostly spent the afternoon shouting at one another, physically divided by a police line on opposite sides of the street. By 1 p.m., university officials announced that two arrests had been made by campus police: One person was arrested for allegedly carrying a knife on campus, and the other was charged with violations including “delaying or obstructing a police officer in the course of duty, false identification to a police officer and wearing a mask to evade police.”

What a bunch of free thinkers. 
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2017 at 05:52
Who trusts Opinion Polls?

Not me.

Just think about all of those other polls that are allegedly taken-the percentage of people with cancer, brain injury, this disease, that disease and so on.

As one politician said in the lead up to the Australian Federal Elections, the only reliable poll is that taken on Election Day in the form of votes.

I keep reading about DJR's first 100 days in office...no it was only 86, he spent the rest playing golf. Many US commentators still decry his leadership, policies and speeches. They question precisely what he's achieved so far, and point out what he hasn't done.

How about, "Three small Words?" Were they, "Lock Her Up?" If so, he hasn't.
His wall, isn't.
His nepotism, is.
His taxation moves are blatant self interest.

But I don't need to go on, do I?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2017 at 14:35
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Who trusts Opinion Polls?

Not me.
You mean not anymore, see 25+ pages of fake news that you stated as fact.

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Just think about all of those other polls that are allegedly taken-the percentage of people with cancer, brain injury, this disease, that disease and so on.

As one politician said in the lead up to the Australian Federal Elections, the only reliable poll is that taken on Election Day in the form of votes.
So glad that you have come around. In Trump's case our liberal media has searched in vain for unhappy Trump voters so they can put them on TeeVee. So they tried polling and got a real shocker! 
Not the kind Ike gave Tina

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

I keep reading about DJR's first 100 days in office...no it was only 86, he spent the rest playing golf. Many US commentators still decry his leadership, policies and speeches. They question precisely what he's achieved so far, and point out what he hasn't done.
It took Obama (here we go franciscosan) 18 months to get a vote on the Affordable Care Act and he had most media shoving in our face daily. I never heard you wonder about what Obama didn't do. Please list all of his accomplishments. Or any.

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

How about, "Three small Words?" Were they, "Lock Her Up?" If so, he hasn't.
His wall, isn't.
His nepotism, is.
His taxation moves are blatant self interest.

But I don't need to go on, do I?


He got his base riled up and he got elected. How do you know what is being investigated? We are now starting to hear about Obama's micromanagement of the military's rules of engagement and many people are dead because of it. Just wait more to come. Soldiers abandoned by high command.

toyomotor expected the wall to be built already? Tell him we like to plan before execution.

As far as the fattest Teletubbie- Hillary, No one here cares or would be surprised if she ends up in prison. I don't wake and think about her. She's irrelevant now but she wasn't as a candidate. Tax reform remains to be seen maybe 200 hundred days? Be generous. 
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 2017 at 06:36
Vanuatu wrote
Quote  You mean not anymore, see 25+ pages of fake news that you stated as fact.

Yes, but they were alternative facts.  Wink



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 2017 at 22:45
See, I think you, Toyomotor, are making a mistake in your assumption that Candidate Trump, during the campaign, was making (logical) statements that had the quality of being either true or false.  I see it more as a matter of verbal diarrhea spewing forth uncontrollably, and his adulating fans, ecstatic, bathing in the waves.
It is hard to resist telling people what they want to hear, instead of what they should hear, but Donald Trump has no resistance whatsoever.  What he says is dictated by what his base wants to hear, even though it means a fundamental change in, say, healthcare (Trump formerly favored a single payer system), or gun control.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2017 at 01:59
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

See, I think you, Toyomotor, are making a mistake in your assumption that Candidate Trump, during the campaign, was making (logical) statements that had the quality of being either true or false.  I see it more as a matter of verbal diarrhea spewing forth uncontrollably, and his adulating fans, ecstatic, bathing in the waves.
It is hard to resist telling people what they want to hear, instead of what they should hear, but Donald Trump has no resistance whatsoever.  What he says is dictated by what his base wants to hear, even though it means a fundamental change in, say, healthcare (Trump formerly favored a single payer system), or gun control.

That's "toyomotor"-small "t".

And no, I don't think I made a mistake, I took some of his comments as pure, illogical rubbish, appealing to a jaded electorate fed up with decades of hearing the same ol' same ol'. There's no secret that I don't hold the President in high regard, although I do applaud some of his policies.

That so many voters liked what he had to say is a condemnation on the system, which needs to be looked at closely and urgent action taken to clean up what is, IMHO, a most corrupt system in almost every way. This could be the subject of another thread if you wish.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2017 at 04:03
He's right franciscosan, this was America voting against the establishment. 

And you are right bc Trump had the attitude that struck a chord he could have recited poetry and been applauded for being a great politician. Smile
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2017 at 08:33
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

He's right franciscosan, this was America voting against the establishment. 

And you are right bc Trump had the attitude that struck a chord he could have recited poetry and been applauded for being a great politician. Smile
 

Or sang three choruses of "Green Sleeves". Wink

Years ago, a politician named Don CHIPP broke away from the well established Liberal Party to form a new party, The Democrats. His stated aim was to,"Keep the Bastards Honest." Whether or not he was successful depends on who you ask, but the party is now defunct.

Australian voters, too, are getting fed up with the same 'ol same 'ol and are looking for alternatives. But, imo, there seems to be none on the horizon.

In the Senate, where government legislation can succeed or fail, there is a core of independently minded senators who are, to a fair degree, "Keeping the Bastards Honest." One of the notables among this group is a single mother, ex-Australian Army Corporal (illustrates that anyone can aspire to high political office in Australia-without vast sums of money).

Our current Prime Minister, like the US President, is a self made multi-millionaire, but not at all flamboyant unlike DJT.

Looks like we limp along for another few years, unless of course there is a second coming.




Edited by toyomotor - 30 Apr 2017 at 08:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2017 at 07:02
Apparently the President of The United States of America has said that he'd be honoured to meet Kim Jong Un if the circumstances were right.

Like if the USA had just bombed the living hell out of Pyong Yang?Wink

But is Mr Trump trying to inject some diplomacy into his rhetoric-finally?

I don't know, but I don't see KJU reacting favourably, do you?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2017 at 03:21
I think that former President Jimmy Carter, and evangelical Billy Graham(?) met with Kim Jong Il, so I think a personal contact between President Trump and Kim Jong Un would flatter his ego.  On the other hand, with the evangelical and Jimmy Carter, it wasn't a direct connection to the power, but rather someone who could cut through the red tape.  Giving Kim Jong Un direct contact with the President might not be the best idea.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2017 at 05:41
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I think that former President Jimmy Carter, and evangelical Billy Graham(?) met with Kim Jong Il, so I think a personal contact between President Trump and Kim Jong Un would flatter his ego.  On the other hand, with the evangelical and Jimmy Carter, it wasn't a direct connection to the power, but rather someone who could cut through the red tape.  Giving Kim Jong Un direct contact with the President might not be the best idea.

Basically, I agree. The only potential benefit I see in a face to face is that the Fat Kid might see that President Trump is deadly serious, and might have the brains to pull his head in.

On the other hand.......


Edited by toyomotor - 12 Jun 2017 at 07:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 02:07
Reading Krauthammer, it sound like the Paris Accord was rather weak anyways.  Pulling out of it was symbolic, on both sides of the fence.  Of course the way President Trump pulled out of it, was less than graceful.  Not that he cares, he seems to delight in provoking others, and then whines when they lash back.  But the Paris Accord would have been rather ineffective, something that is missed by Trump critics waiting for the next thing to get worked up about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2017 at 22:15
Donald Trump is a horrid person, but being horrid is not a crime, one should look at and contemplate his actions.  There was an Islamic woman from Canada that pointed out that the countries in the travel ban were all failed states and swimming in Chaos, and so she thought that Trump had every right to ban nationals from those countries.  Now it is not so much from these places that terrorists come from.  Most terrorists come from Saudi Arabia, the heart of radical Islam.  So maybe Trump's given reasons are not necessarily the reasons he does stuff, which means there might be more method to his madness than first appears, but at the same time a complete lack of the transparency that we assume should be in a democratic nation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2017 at 05:46
franciscosan

You have chided me in the past for disrespectfully referring to various people by their surnames or by nicknames. Please let me assure you the insults were deliberate. 

As for your President, it seems now that he is getting closer than ever to impeachment with the latest news that he is contemplating sacking the Special Investigator who was appointed to look into the so called Russian Affair. I don't think even a complacent Congress would take that laying down, do you? 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2017 at 21:45
I know its deliberate, I just question whether it is effective.  I would prefer your criticism to have more substance and content, because that is what would help others to construct their own arguments, and that is what would convince others that might be on the other side of the issue.  Name calling might feel good, and might play well with the home team, but it is not going to convince people who disagree, it is probably not even going to convince people that are sitting on the fence.  Now it might feed into the mass of people and effect their opinion, but feeding the masses and appealing to the tyranny of the majority works against rational discourse, and thus is often ugly and uncontrollable. 

But don't worry, nobody is going to compare _your_ name calling to _Trump's_ calling his opponent, "crooked Hillary."Wink

I don't think congress is complacent.  I don't know about whether Trump is looking to fire the investigation into colllusion with the Russians, but I will look for that in the news so I might comment on it more intelligently.  But, no it is not a question of congress being complacent, nor is it a question of them taking it laying down, as you put it.  It is a question of if or when matters reach a critical mass, and the White House (figuratively speaking) implodes.  But beware of Schadenfreude and 'Freudenschade.'
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2017 at 02:55
You miss my point. I'm certainly NOT saying that Congress is complacent, I'm saying that if Congress were complacent, it would still be unlikely to take interference such as that suggested without acting. I see in todays media that talk now is of criminal action for Perverting the Course of Justice, which, under Australian Law, could have been sustained when he fired Coney.

If Mr Trump takes such pre-emptive action as to fire the Special Investigator, by whatever means he uses, it would almost be a lay down misere of his guilt and I would think that Congress would have no alternative but to impeach him. I note that, according to the media report, it is not usual for a sitting President to be charged with criminal offences, but the evidence referred to Congress for impeachment proceedings. 

If in fact Mr Trump was involved, with Russia, in nobbling the electoral race, would that be Treason in the US?

Do you think there's a chance that he could be impeached?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2017 at 00:07
In the US, there is no such charge as "perverting the course of justice," it is "obstructing justice," in our lingo.  

former FBI director Comey, not Coney.

First the question of impeachment would come up, then if that happened, there would be the question of treason.  But there is a tradition (that has never been tested) that the President should be immune to prosecution.  So I doubt it would ever come down to a prosecution for treason, although some people would probably love to sentence him first, and then figure out the crime.  I find Donald Trump offensive, but that is not a criminal offense.  Do I think he is doing a lot of damage, both intentionally, and unintentionally?  Yes.  Is he doing anything illegal?  That's for others with more of an understanding of the law to decide, and make the case.  It is above my pay grade.  I suggest waiting for things to develop and in the mean time, pay close attention.  One's first estimate of the situation is usually wrong.  Figure out what he is guilty of, and then convict him of that.  You also can sell him the rope by which he'll hang himself.  In politics that is fair, and probably common.

Remember as far as impeachment or obstruction or 'treason' is concerned, we have never had a president like Trump before, which means that we really are in uncharted waters.

But all this is domestic issues, and so I would encourage you to ask such questions on the domestic Trump thread.
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