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Trump and the domestic arena

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2017 at 03:14
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Allegations are being made that the Trump campaign, and perhaps even Trump himself had contact with Russian government figures during the election campaign.His son now admits that he did. 

Allegations are that Russia somehow had some electronic influence on the out ome of the campaign.

So, during the G20 Meetings, Trump took the opportunity to make a pact with Russia on Cyber Security? Eeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, want to think that over.



Your allegations have been fascinating for over two hundred days now.

No, not allegation, reports of reports, or comments on reports.
  • there have been allegations of Russia somehow electronically interfering with the election result, have there not?
  • those allegations have been aimed at the Trump campaign staff and/or Trump himself, have they not?
  • has his son has now admitted communicating with a Russian lawyer during the campaign, or not?
  • Did Trump in fact discuss a pact with Putin or a partnership on Cyber Security during some down time of the G20?
If the answer to the above is, "Yes", I rest my case.

I know I said that I was going to step back from this topic, but there's just so much material. For example, I read that some politician has now commenced early steps for impeachment-which I also read are not likely to succeed.


Edited by toyomotor - 14 Jul 2017 at 03:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2017 at 22:18
I don't know, there is some sense to having the fox guard the chicken coop, if anything happens, you know immediately who's to blame.

Yes, Donald Trump is the gift that keeps on giving.  Especially to late night stand-up comedians and reporters.  If there was that kind of attention given to Hillary, she would not have been the democratic anointed one, and then maybe the democrats would not have put all their eggs in the same basket.  But then again, why should they pay attention to her foibles, they didn't do that for Barack Obama.

I think it is horrible how Donald Trump attacks the media in general and CNN in particular, but then again, Barack Obama said that Fox News was not worthy of being a News outlet.  I don't think it should be the President's decision who deserves the freedom of the press and who doesn't.  Barack Obama set a dangerous precedent for a president, deciding who is and who isn't legitimate media.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2017 at 03:22
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I don't know, there is some sense to having the fox guard the chicken coop, if anything happens, you know immediately who's to blame.

Yes, Donald Trump is the gift that keeps on giving.  Especially to late night stand-up comedians and reporters.  If there was that kind of attention given to Hillary, she would not have been the democratic anointed one, and then maybe the democrats would not have put all their eggs in the same basket.  But then again, why should they pay attention to her foibles, they didn't do that for Barack Obama.

I think it is horrible how Donald Trump attacks the media in general and CNN in particular, but then again, Barack Obama said that Fox News was not worthy of being a News outlet.  I don't think it should be the President's decision who deserves the freedom of the press and who doesn't.  Barack Obama set a dangerous precedent for a president, deciding who is and who isn't legitimate media.

As dangerous as banning all "non friendly" media from press conferences?

As dangerous as telling people not to watch certain TV programs?

I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2017 at 03:32
As the sun sets slowly in the west, the Russia/Trump conspiracy allegations become even stronger. Now a Russian Counter Intelligence Agents claims to have also been present at a meeting with Trump Jnr.

Why? One might well ask. Well Jnr's a quality person for a start.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2017 at 06:59
toyomotor, yes I'm familiar with the allegations. 

Is Trump or Jr above side deals? No way.

Allegations of meetings to get dirt on a political rival. It's not so unusual.

Are you under the impression that the democrats don't make deals? 

I got your Your New York Times Right Heya;


Beyond mines in Kazakhstan that are among the most lucrative in the world, the sale gave the Russians control of one-fifth of all uranium production capacity in the United States. Since uranium is considered a strategic asset, with implications for national security, the deal had to be approved by a committee composed of representatives from a number of United States government agencies. Among the agencies that eventually signed off was the State Department, then headed by Mr. Clinton’s wife, Hillary Rodham Clinton.

As the Russians gradually assumed control of Uranium One in three separate transactions from 2009 to 2013, Canadian records show, a flow of cash made its way to the Clinton Foundation. Uranium One’s chairman used his family foundation to make four donations totaling $2.35 million. Those contributions were not publicly disclosed by the Clintons, despite an agreement Mrs. Clinton had struck with the Obama White House to publicly identify all donors. Other people with ties to the company made donations as well.

And shortly after the Russians announced their intention to acquire a majority stake in Uranium One, Mr. Clinton received $500,000 for a Moscow speech from a Russian investment bank with links to the Kremlin that was promoting Uranium One stock.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2017 at 10:31
Vanuatu
Quote Are you under the impression that the democrats don't make deals?

No, but, as I've said repeatedly, no previous administration in my lifetime, so early in it's time in office, has received so much adverse press not just in the US, but around the world. The consensus of opinion seems to be that Trump has seriously damaged the US brand.

IMHO, regardless of who it is, to have a potential President or one of his senior aids consulting Russian solicitors and Counter Intelligence Agents, and then the same newly elected President waxing lyrical about what a great guy Putin is, smells.

Trump has no political background, evaded military service and has no idea of how to run a country. He's trying to run it like a private corporation and it just won't work that way.

He's opened his gob and made a fool of himself every time he did.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2017 at 18:44
toyomotor,

Donald Trump in regards to CNN and other supposedly "hostile" media is the camel-in-the-tent.

Barack Obama in regards to Fox News is the "camel's-nose-in-the-tent."  Once the camel's nose is in, the whole camel is soon to appear, and wa-la! guess what, now the camel is in the tent.  So yes, President Obama set a dangerous precedent, which was followed by Donald Trump's general media bashing.  And the fact that it happened with Fox News, and was largely dismissed by general media, means that when CNN gets bashed, some people are going to say, "it is only fitting that what goes around, comes around" or, "payback is a bitch."  I think that a strong press is important for democracy, and I agree with H.L. Mencken that the relationship between the press and the President should be one of a dog (the press) and a lamppost.  Needless to say, Donald Trump appears temperamentally unsuited for that kind of a relationship, but then again I think that he is unsuited for the job in general.  Problem is a sizable minority of the American people (only 1/2 vote at all) think that he is.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2017 at 22:59
I think Obama and Hillary are heaping on to the terrible behavior of the media who never peed on Obama's leg.

Just a pack of sycophants. Why didn't they pee on Barry's leg?

Obama set the precedent for unabashed fakery and obstructionism. No- class Hillary didn't even show up to concede race on election night bc everyone laughed off Trump as president. 

That's why even though Obama knew the Russians were hacking the DNC his big response was to tell Putin to "knock it off" in person. Wonder if he drew a red line?

Democrats and MSM never thought Trump would win so they laughed at the idea of Russia as a threat, now Russia is evil incarnate, not our BFF's as Rachael Maddow said. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2017 at 20:34
1) because they liked Barack Obama's mystique and therefore treated him with kid gloves.
(During the campaign, the Onion, (a joke newspaper) had a pseudo-article about Obama, and "the hardest questions about underwear yet."  (Some stupid college student had thought it was clever to ask Bill Clinton whether he wore boxers or briefs (I imagine what he really wanted to say was, "come in the back, baby, and I'll show you.")))
2) maybe they were too busy trying to hump it<grin>.
3) But they did not _completely_ roll-over for him and beg.  And he got sick of dealing with them too.
4) Donald Trump bends over and dares them to kick him, and then he whines and cries that he is being picked on.  Barack Obama was at least smart enough to generally avoid setting himself up for contradiction or possible abuse.

I like the Hockey game (Arizona?) where on the Jumbotron (giant TV screen) they advertised that the game's attendance was 3 million.  They figured if Trump could count everyone looking on from different media (TV) at his inauguration for his attendance records, they could too.  Hockey fans and Arizonians are generally not examples of knee-jerk liberalism.  Everybody knew what the jumbotron was referring to and everybody got a laugh, at Donald's expense.

No, I think Hillary was genuinely surprised, shocked and dismayed that she wasn't anointed.  Pundits in the media said it was hers to win or loose and she lost.  David Brooks had said all along in the campaign trail, that she never gave a reason why she wanted it, and he thought that that was what she needed to do to win.  She probably thought she had enough votes, so she didn't have to worry about the calculus of what states she needed.  It was her personality of keeping things secret and closed, that did not allow her to give a personal touch of saying _why_ she wanted to be president.  Trump didn't have that problem.  So while he got fewer votes, he got them spread out more demographically, winning the electoral college.  She lost, and she probably could have won if she had spoke directly about why she personally wanted it.  Brooks did not predict Trump winning, but he did predict why she could loose.  And he was right.

what does MSM stand for Multiple Sclorosis Mother? Master of Sado-Masochism?  
don't make me look it up.....
Russia has always had a nasty reputation.  Ivan the terrible reportedly imported renaissance craftsmen to build those onion domes you see in the Kremlin, and then (supposedly) had the artisans' eyes put out so they would never see or do anything as beautiful again.  Catharine the great used the Polish throne as a commode, because she could.  Russia looks fondly back at the good ol' days of Stalin (who killed 30(?) million, more than Hitler.  Vladimir Putin is KGB born and bred, he is an evil little sob.  But, just because someone is nasty, doesn't mean you are the good guy and can outmaneuver them.  Putin is a shrewed operator, and knows what he is doing.  I didn't think that the same was true with Obama, and I think that it is also not true at all with Donald Trump.

I don't know who Rachael Maddow is?  Should I know her?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2017 at 04:34
Quote No, I think Hillary was genuinely surprised, shocked and dismayed that she wasn't anointed.  Pundits in the media said it was hers to win or loose and she lost.  David Brooks had said all along in the campaign trail, that she never gave a reason why she wanted it, and he thought that that was what she needed to do to win.  She probably thought she had enough votes, so she didn't have to worry about the calculus of what states she needed.  It was her personality of keeping things secret and closed, that did not allow her to give a personal touch of saying _why_ she wanted to be president.  Trump didn't have that problem.  So while he got fewer votes, he got them spread out more demographically, winning the electoral college.  She lost, and she probably could have won if she had spoke directly about why she personally wanted it.  Brooks did not predict Trump winning, but he did predict why she could loose.  And he was right.
I agree Hillary was totally shocked.

Quote
what does MSM stand for Multiple Sclorosis Mother? Master of Sado-Masochism?  
don't make me look it up.....
Main Stream MediaParty
Quote Russia has always had a nasty reputation.  Ivan the terrible reportedly imported renaissance craftsmen to build those onion domes you see in the Kremlin, and then (supposedly) had the artisans' eyes put out so they would never see or do anything as beautiful again.  Catharine the great used the Polish throne as a commode, because she could.  Russia looks fondly back at the good ol' days of Stalin (who killed 30(?) million, more than Hitler.  Vladimir Putin is KGB born and bred, he is an evil little sob.  But, just because someone is nasty, doesn't mean you are the good guy and can outmaneuver them.  Putin is a shrewed operator, and knows what he is doing.  I didn't think that the same was true with Obama, and I think that it is also not true at all with Donald Trump.

I don't know about Trump and Putin. Trump has this "Fortune's Pet" quality about him. He may be operating blind, but bc he is always underestimated his opponent makes the mistake.

I had a premonition that Putin will choke on a spaetzle at the G-20 next week.



Quote I don't know who Rachael Maddow is?  Should I know her?

Just a talking head from MSNBCParty Here's a nice pic


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2017 at 19:24
Pardon me!

Having given just a little more thought to the mess he could be in over the Russian thing the President of the USA now claims that he has the power to pardon himself and his aides for any crimes which they may have committed.

The US President does how the power to pardon convicted offenders, but this comment, IMHO, goes to indicate his own feelings of self guilt n the whole shebang,or why bother with the early morning tweets. The other point is too, I think the Presidential power to parson extends to convicted persons, which means, as I understand US Constitutional Law, if he was convicted, he may parson himself, but that in turn could be determined to be an act of gross misconduct, as well the actual crime, and be sufficient for him to be impeached.

IMO, to date, he has lied, rambled and set former friendly countries off side.  His word can certainly not be relied upon. He's deeply insulted the wives of foreign leaders, and therefore their husbands and their countries. My reading of the situation is that business confidence is down, industry lacks confidence in Trump and his popularity polls are sliding, not slipping, downhill. People are waking up to what they've done.

Senior members of his own party are gainst many of his polices, and his "Make America Great Again" is reminiscent of Adolph Hitlers rant to the German people in 1930's.

The American brand is damaged, not irreparably yet, but the longer Trump calls the shots, the worse it gets.

Make America Great Again indeed, sack Trump!




Edited by toyomotor - 22 Jul 2017 at 19:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2017 at 02:18
I am sure the lawyers will get well paid to figure it out.  But, I think that you are correct, pardons are for crimes where there has been a trial and a conviction, it is not (probably) a way to conceal nefarious deeds before they come to the light of day.

The slogan for Germany was, "Deutschland uber Alles."  The tone of "Make America Great Again" is a little different that that of Germany.

I think the comparison between Trump and the Nazis is a little over the top, and counterproductive.

What happens when people cry wolf too much, and then the actual wolf comes around? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2017 at 05:40
Franciscosan

Quote The slogan for Germany was, "Deutschland uber Alles."  The tone of "Make America Great Again" is a little different that that of Germany.

I think the comparison between Trump and the Nazis is a little over the top, and counterproductive.

I was not comparing Trump to Hitler! As well you know!!!Angry

I know very well what the German slogan was, and what does it boil down to? The same as Trump is basically saying, Make America Great Again, America Over All.

I'd say the same thing about Australia, here and now, Make Australia Great, better than all the rest-isn't that the same thing?

And before you leap in to castigate me, NO I AM NOT REFERRING TO HITLERS RACE POLICIES, only a maniac would support those.

Keep nitpicking, that's about all you can do, it seems.Thumbs Down

Quote What happens when people cry wolf too much, and then the actual wolf comes around?

What are you on about?

You've been one of the best headkickers around since this topic started, and now you turn on me?

Forum rules prevent me from saying what I'd like to.Angry 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2017 at 21:55
I was saying that _the_ comparison between Trump and Hitler was over the top, not that _your_ comparison was over the top.  I wasn't saying about you.  Other people want to make the comparison, and I think doing so, simplifies matters immensely and not in a productive way.  
And actually Deutschland uber alles means that German is above all others, Make America great again, means America was great, now isn't great (I don't agree) and will be again, it doesn't imply that other countries can't be great too, but for Trump that is their deal.  So not the same.

Except making America great again, seems to mean that America is ruled by Russia, like a puppet with Putin's hand up his backside.  So for Trump, American greatness is predicated on Russian manipulation

I am about how people are into criticizing Trump on his matter of style (or lack thereof), and if they exhaust all their energy on little matters, they won't be listened to on bigger manners of substance.

Pro-Trump people are very critical on how people go after their darling Trump.  "They say, of course it is unusual or never been done before, we have never had quite the same kind of president before." (thank God!) I think it is very important to get him on his crimes and misdemeanors dead to rights.  Dot the i's and cross the t's.  There is a bit of fatigue about Trump, his shenanigans are so egregious, and tiresome, that people stop paying attention, the media should pace itself, and choose its shots wisely.  not sweat the small stuff.  Of course, that might not be possible.

Turn on you?  seriously?  I'm not for you, I am not against you, I think you take it too personally, not that it isn't your right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 02:53
Quote I was saying that _the_ comparison between Trump and Hitler was over the top, not that _your_ comparison was over the top.

Who's comparing Trump to Hitler? Stupid!

Quote And actually Deutschland uber alles means that German is above all others

No it doesn't. Deutschland's the word for Germany, the country. I think when Hitler referred to the people it was Deutscher Volken or Volker.

Quote  Make America great again, means America was great, now isn't great (I don't agree) and will be again, it doesn't imply that other countries can't be great too, but for Trump that is their deal.  So not the same.

I tend to agree. America, IMHO, has slipped in many ways in recent decades, and I have no problem at all with President Trump exhorting the people to  Make America Great Again-getting rid of the National Debt would be a good start.

Quote Except making America great again, seems to mean that America is ruled by Russia, like a puppet with Putin's hand up his backside.  So for Trump, American greatness is predicated on Russian manipulation.

What a load of crap. If Vanuatu reads this, she'll have certain parts of your anatomy fried in butter-slowly. I admit to not liking Trump, the person, but not disliking all of his policies.

Quote I am about how people are into criticizing Trump on his matter of style (or lack thereof), and if they exhaust all their energy on little matters, they won't be listened to on bigger manners of substance.

On this forum, you've been as a big a critic of DJR as I have, talk about hypocritical!!! Again, IMO,

The following link makes good reading. 


And the author is well respected and non biased.

Quote I think it is very important to get him on his crimes and misdemeanors dead to rights.
Absolutely, as it is for any and all bent public officials.

Quote There is a bit of fatigue about Trump, his shenanigans are so egregious, and tiresome, that people stop paying attention.

Yes, and that's the danger, "Oh, that's just Donald being Donald again, don't pay him no nevermind." until the ship hits the span, big time.

_________________________________________________________________________

Journalists have written that Donald Trump is trying to run the USA, as one would run a private corporation, and it won't work.

Trump evaded the Draft on spurious grounds and so has no idea or understanding how the military machine works.

He's never held public office before, at any level, and so has to real idea how government works.

Nor does he understand diplomacy, internal or international. Internally, it's "My way or the highway." Internationally, he sits sulkily, rudely pushes himself to the forefront of photographs, ignores leaders who have been traditional friends and insults their wives. He recants on decades old agreemants and understandings, leaving friendly leaders baffled.

On his own administration, he either ignores good advice, or shoot the messenger. He's currently skating on very thin ice over the Russian business.

Around the world, he's becoming recognised as a bufoon over his blatant lies, exaggerations, alleged false truths blamed on the media, and his banning of non-friendly media from routine Media Conferences.

He's at War with the Supreme Court over his Travel Restrictions, he's sacked an Attorney General and recently the Chief of the FBI, who who investigating allegations against him. It's being said that his administration is investigating Special Investigator Meuller and his staff's backgrounds with the intention, no doubt of intimidating them or slinging mud.

It strongly rumoured the the Joint Chiefs of Staff are meeting in secret, making decisions without him-stress-rumoured.

He has sections of his own party in turmoil over some of his decisions, his attempt to demolish Obamacare seems to have failed, at least for now, business confidence is falling. His decision to build the Mexican wall is leaving orange farmers wondering where they'll get labourers in years to come.

And now, to cap it all off, to add weight to suspicions of guilt of his Russian involvement during the election campaign, Trump now says that he has the power to pardon to any and all wrongdoers, including himself.

But, if US Law follows the Westminster Tradition from whence it sprung, one must have first been convicted of a crime of offence before a pardon can be granted.

If the US President were to be convicted of an offence or a Crime, I think that would be sufficient for him to be impeached. Whether or not he could have a prepared pardon on hand to issue before impeachment could get under way would, I would think, be the matter of a court decision. And that court decision wouldn't take a week or two to reach either, providing he didn't sack the judges!

Experts in US Constitutional Law say that although it seems to, on the surface a grey area, at law, no man should be judge of himself, and therefore a President could not pardon himself, others say that the Consitutional power to pardon excludes cases of impeachment, others say that even if a President pardoned himself, that in itself would be a case for impeachment.

Either way, I don't think Donald would have the stones.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Article II, Section II of the Constitution provides that the president "shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment."

Shortly before President Nixon resigned from office, the Office of Legal Counsel issued an opinion in which they cautioned that no one may be a judge in his own case. (This is also a principle of so-called "natural law.") This meant, the OLC said, that the president cannot pardon himself. 

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics


Edited by toyomotor - Yesterday at 08:16
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