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Vikings Were First to Americas

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    Posted: 29 May 2020 at 06:04
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It now appears acceptable to science that Vikings from Denmark and Schleswig sailing south from Europe reached at least the island of Madeira. This is based on carbon-dating the skeletons of house mice found at the eastern end of the island.

The official report states "House mice (examined on Madeira) show similarities in mitochondrial DNA with those in Scandinavia and Northern Germany but not those in Portugal." These mice bones were carbon-dated and were found to be from creatures who lived from 0930 AD to 1030 AD.

Scientists believe that the mice must have stowed away on Viking ships and went ashore when they beached on Madeira island, the first stop out from Europe. It is thought improbable that the mice were flown from Europe in the clutches of birds, or arrived on driftwood.

A likely destination for a Viking fleet heading south beyond Madeira would be the Amazon delta, for which evidence of an arrival is said to exist.

Scientists also conducted searches in the Azores and came up with mice skeletons which originated from Norway. However the results of the carbon dating is a secret. One assumes that if these mice were from the same epoch as the Madeira mice, the proximity of the Azores to Central America might give rise to undesirable speculation that Vikings then headed west and reached there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2020 at 14:41
From my understanding, the first people were across the land bridge or Polynesian sailors.  South America is more linguistically diverse, which is the opposite of what one should expect from the land bridge hypothesis.  Or one can argue that various tribe(s) were autochthonic, born from the Earth.

"evidence of an arrival is said to exist," could you be a little more specific??  I mean, if you are going to make a case, make a case.  It seems pretty clear from archaeology that the Vikings in Greenland and Vinland predate Columbus, but making it to Madeira and the Azores is different than reaching South America, no?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2020 at 18:34
There has been a recent publication about vikings in America on ancient-origins:

I think historically all those visits (even if there were some) were  rather insignificant. They didn't change the way of the development of our civilization. Real scientists shouldn't spend too much time on studying  favourite picnic areas of European gangsters. Before 1800s there must have been more African than white folks among new settlers of America.
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Franciscosan

My error, I should have included the word "Europeans" after "First" in the title.

Evidence was provided by archaeologist Jacques de Mahieu in his book "La agonía del Dios-Sol" (Hachette, Buenos Aires 1977) that the island of Marajó was a major station to support Viking maritime activities in the Amazon Delta. The major trade was in the timber of the brazil-wood tree to French ports. Customs regulations existed at Dieppe, Harfleur and other ports to control this activity which by 1250 AD had been taken over completely by the Normans by reason of their having better sea carriers.

Also mentioned in de Mahieu's book is the diary kept by a Catholic priest who came by Viking vessel from a ports on the French coast to Marajó island in 1250 and from there proceeded on an evangelizing mission across the Guayrá, Paraguay and Peru.

There seems to me no point in having academic history if facts, no matter how insignificant, are considered best discarded. Vikings discovered parts of North America, and parts of South America, several hundred years before the arrival of Columbus in the Caribbean. That is a disagreeable historical fact for historians since it attacks the sacred Columbus dogma.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2020 at 05:46
Ivenheim, hello, welcome Smile  why does the author make this point about Portugal? Templars theory?

Quote The official report states "House mice (examined on Madeira) show similarities in mitochondrial DNA with those in Scandinavia and Northern Germany but not those in Portugal." These mice bones were carbon-dated and were found to be from creatures who lived from 0930 AD to 1030 AD.

fransicosan, yes it's disagreeable since it has the potential to change the accepted narrative, like dominoes one correction in time can lead to the dissolution of favorite historical precepts and heroes. 

I'm not sure how Novosedoff arrives here;
"Before 1800s there must have been more African than white folks among new settlers of America."
Are there statistics? Dutch slave records? Census?


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The coast of Portugal occupies the greater part of the Iberian península on the Atlantic side. All Viking vessels southbound from Europe would usually stop there before entering the Mediterranean.

Viking drakkars headed for Brazil would have given the Portuguese coast a wide berth because of westerly winds and current, and headed direct to Madeira for water, fish and game.

From the book mentioned above by Jacques de Mahieu, pages 116 et seq:

1. In 1503, Paulmier de Gonneville sailed south from Honfleur and wrote: "The country in the West Indies where for years boats came from Dieppe, Saint Malo and other Norman ports to collect wood, discovered by the Portuguese in 1500 and called "Terra Sanctae Crucis", was always designated by the French as "Brazil"-

2. Trunks of brazil-wood are found mentioned by French Customs offices as from the beginning of the 13th century. "Coopers make barrels from tamarisk and brazil-wood" (Book of ojicios of Estienne Boileau).

3. At the end of the 13th century, brazil-wood is mentioned as an "article of importation" in the "Droitures consternes et appartenances" of the "uiscomté de l'eau" of Ruán.
In 1387 the Customs at Harfleur fixed the rates for brazil Wood at 4.5 dinarios each 100 pounds.
In 1396 the Customs at Dieppe collected 8 dinarios for a trunk of brazil and 3 dinarios for a bale.
This demonstrates that brazil-wood entered into France through the ports of Normandy.

4.From where did the Normans obtain these trunks? Their expeditions did not pass the river in Zaire, and they did not buy them from the Arabs who only imported extracts because they boats could not carry trunks. The tree, a variety of sapang, caesaípinia brasilienses, grows only in Central America and Brazil.

5. In order to monopolize the source, the French exercised great secrecy about where the trunks originated. Their caravels were able to take these loads efficiently whereas Viking drakkars found the transport difficult. The contact between Vikings and Normans in Brazil as from about 1250 AD onwards is demonstrated by de Mahieu in many pages of his book.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2020 at 06:35
For someone who complains about academic historians ignoring the facts, ignoring the fact that people predated Europeans is a pretty big omission.

But, you are right, I would feel more reassured if de Mahieu was not a collaborationist, and a member of the Charlemagne Division who fled to Peronist Argentina.  One might wonder if Mahieu was just following the route that the Vikings took, or maybe the ratlines established the route the Vikings took?

Do ethics help establish the facts?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2020 at 07:12
No disagreement really, interesting topic. 
So the House Mice examined on Madeira had Spanish mouse dna, Scandinavian mouse dna ; are you counting Northern Germany as Norman mouse dna? 

Brazilwood originally referred to the Asian "sappanwood" casalpinia echinata. The tree oozes red when cut and yes it became the inspiration for the name of the country of Brazil- Terra De Santa Cruz. Land of the Holy Cross. 
Early 1500's Pedro Alvarez Cabral takes the first Brazil wood to Lisbon, according to this source. 
Court of Louis XIV had furniture made of "Brazilwood" is it the same species you refer to? Or was it sappanwood?
pp130
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2020 at 11:00
Franciscosan

I have already acccepted my error regarding the omission of the Word "Europeans" from the title. I am not an academic historian and stand corrected.

De Mahieu was an officer in the artillery section of the Waffen-SS 33-Division "Charlemagne", fought for all I know honourably, and after being involved in the final battle for Berlin came to Argentina after the war ended. Whether he was involved in any way with the military-scientific developments which came to a head here in the year 1960, I do not have that information but it seems possible. However it also seems unlikely to me that ODESSA would have obliged him to pursue an interest in Vikings for some ulterior political motive which remains obscure.

What does strike me as interesting, however, is that of all the suggestions proposed for the escape of the Templar survivors, I have never seen anybody wondering if some of them, particularly the Austrian and German Templars, came down to Brazil in Norman ships.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2020 at 11:24
There is another name for the mice, it is Norwegian Rats, and they spread all throughout Europe bringing the plague  (fleas).  It would be a surprise if they didn't get down to the Azores, but also if the Normans (Norsemen) had made it to Brazil it would be surprise if the rats didn't make it there also.  and if that had happened, it would have been devastating on the native population.

When the Little Ice Age happened, the Greenlandic, and the Vinland (Newfoundland) Viking colonies collapsed.  Iceland was also particularly hard hit, but surely that would not have happened for any settlements in South America.  And yes, people got past Zaire before the Vikings, so I imagine that the Vikings could do it too.  The Phoenicians did it, and Herodotus refers to it. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2020 at 15:49
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:


I'm not sure how Novosedoff arrives here;
"Before 1800s there must have been more African than white folks among new settlers of America."
Are there statistics? Dutch slave records? Census?


This fact is mentioned in Valentin Katasonov's book "From slavery to slavery", I attach the screenshot from the book in case someone can read in Russian here..

More specifically, Valentin Katasonov mentions this fact as related to N.America, and as I understood the estimate covers the period from the end of 15th (discovery of America) to the end of 18th centuries.

I am not saying that I fully trust Katasonov's writing. He is known to have a vivid anti-american positions, almost nuts in certain respects. He is a very Soviet type of guys, who used to be a professor of Moscow State Institute of International Relations before his retirement. Nowadays he seems to be working for Putin's propaganda dpt because he is a frequent guest to political TV shows (which I dont watch, but which are easy to google up just to check the fact)  

So I would appreciate if someone could confirm or deny this fact with info from other sources




Edited by Novosedoff - 30 May 2020 at 15:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2020 at 16:51
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

There is another name for the mice, it is Norwegian Rats, and they spread all throughout Europe bringing the plague  (fleas).  It would be a surprise if they didn't get down to the Azores, but also if the Normans (Norsemen) had made it to Brazil it would be surprise if the rats didn't make it there also.  and if that had happened, it would have been devastating on the native population.

Normans meaning Norsemen? really? 
I thought we were talking about Normandy- Normans, France??

That's my point about the mice; where is the dna proof the mice were in French ports ? Please clarify, sorry just not following the points made. thanks 

Originally posted by Ivinheim Ivinheim wrote:

Franciscosan

My error, I should have included the word "Europeans" after "First" in the title.

Evidence was provided by archaeologist Jacques de Mahieu in his book "La agonía del Dios-Sol" (Hachette, Buenos Aires 1977) that the island of Marajó was a major station to support Viking maritime activities in the Amazon Delta. The major trade was in the timber of the brazil-wood tree to French ports. Customs regulations existed at Dieppe, Harfleur and other ports to control this activity which by 1250 AD had been taken over completely by the Normans by reason of their having better sea carriers.

Also mentioned in de Mahieu's book is the diary kept by a Catholic priest who came by Viking vessel from a ports on the French coast to Marajó island in 1250 and from there proceeded on an evangelizing mission across the Guayrá, Paraguay and Peru.

There seems to me no point in having academic history if facts, no matter how insignificant, are considered best discarded. Vikings discovered parts of North America, and parts of South America, several hundred years before the arrival of Columbus in the Caribbean. That is a disagreeable historical fact for historians since it attacks the sacred Columbus dogma.
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2020 at 17:11
I think that it is fair to say the norwegian rats were the invasive species of the day.  The portrait of cats as satanic interfered with the main thing that could keep the rats (and fleas in check.).  I just emphasize the natives because if you are worked up about portraying Columbus after the Vikings, you should also be sure to portray the natives as first.  I have neither love nor hatred for Columbus.  It might take some doing, but one could look in wooden datable art objects for South American wood.  Of course, an inability to find anything could not totally refute the idea, but neither would it look good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2020 at 17:18
Quote "So I would appreciate if someone could confirm or deny this fact with info from other sources"
So far all I find in English is his economic theory, which is ripped open by his detractors. He is not alone in the whole Rothchild/world money/ pyramid ideas. 
Nothing on the Africans in N.America but I will look at other sources. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2020 at 17:31
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Quote "So I would appreciate if someone could confirm or deny this fact with info from other sources"
So far all I find in English is his economic theory, which is ripped open by his detractors. He is not alone in the whole Rothchild/world money/ pyramid ideas. 
Nothing on the Africans in N.America but I will look at other sources. 


In fact, Kasatonov even gives an estimate by saying that there were 2-5 times more Africans than white folks in N.America before 1800s, he claims to have cited this from other sources, which are not mentioned in the book though

I've made quite a few screenshots from 2 of Kasatonov's recent books with a number of interesting facts related to the US. Since the guy is seemingly affiliated with Kremlin's propaganda department I think many facts from his books need a proper check.  So I would appreciate if you could confirm the following facts:
1) the US has 60% of all lawyers in the modern world (over 1 mln. people, 70% of whom have private practice)
2) 57% of American prison population have charges related to drug use
3) In 2009 there were 100,000 people in American private prisons (4% of total American prison population) 
4) Some prisons in the US are known to use prison labor for agricultural purpose in farming (in Louisiana and Texas about 16% of prison population works in the fields, in Arkansas - 40%)
5) the US has about 4-5% of world population and 25% of world's prison population
6) the US has about 4-5% of world population and 40% in consumption of world's natural resources

 


Edited by Novosedoff - 30 May 2020 at 17:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2020 at 18:09
1) the US has 60% of all lawyers in the modern world (over 1 mln. people, 70% of whom have private practice)
2) 57% of American prison population have charges related to drug use
3) In 2009 there were 100,000 people in American private prisons (4% of total American prison population) 
4) Some prisons in the US are known to use prison labor for agricultural purpose in farming (in Louisiana and Texas about 16% of prison population works in the fields, in Arkansas - 40%)
5) the US has about 4-5% of world population and 25% of world's prison population
6) the US has about 4-5% of world population and 40% in consumption of world's natural resources

 
I'm going to look these up, right now I have to catch up on Twitter feed. Massive f***ing riots in several US cities tonight.
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2020 at 18:39
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

I'm going to look these up, right now I have to catch up on Twitter feed. Massive f***ing riots in several US cities tonight.

Sounds like there is nothing unusual in this for the US Smile



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2020 at 22:03
Btw there is a lot of interesting facts mentioned in Jared Diamond's latest book called Upheaval




 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2020 at 08:21
As the democrats say, vote early, vote often.

Do you know why elections are on a Tuesday?

There are census every ten years, and the South got it so slaves were represented 3/5 in congress and electoral college.  You should be able to get an estimate of United States general population, and slave population from that, of course not all blacks were slaves.

It does not really matter whether I am an unequal to Bill Gates, poverty is the issue, inequality shouldn't be as such.  Some people want to paint everything as a race war (to replace the class warfare sales pitch that was not that successful).  World War I showed that poor British and French were happy enough to kill poor Germans and Turks.  Race has largely replaced class in Western socialist doctrine.  But if you are a lefty intellectual, are you really doing anyone a favor urging the poor to burn baby burn?  Because, ultimately that is what it is, them burning themselves out.  In America, there is affirmative action, and the belief that some are intrinsically more oppressed than others, by the virtue of their skin color.  But, the fact is, most poverty in the United States is not in the cities, it is in the country, where the poor can't shout as loud, but they have shouted by electing Trump.  Btw, most poor in the United States are white, but lefty urban intellectuals like Diamond tend to ignore the rural majority (of poor) for the urban minority.  They can whine that something should be done, and yes it is being done, but probably not by them.

I would suggest reading Friedrich Von Hayek "Socialism and Intellectuals."

Again, why Tuesday?


Edited by franciscosan - 31 May 2020 at 08:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2020 at 16:31
Novosedoff, the more I think about it, it seems plausible that there would have been more laborers than 'colonists' in 15 century. Indentured servants from Europe and then African slaves would have to outnumber settlers. Later when the railroads were built Chinese immigrants flowed into the country.

But we have hijacked the Viking thread! 
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It may well be the case that the Vikings were the first Europeans to reach the Americas, but I retain an open mind on the suggestion that ancient Egyptians could also have travelled so far by sea.

Consider the fact that they had the Red Sea and the Mediterranean Sea to sail upon, and I wouldn't be surprised that, if at sometime in the future it was shown that the Egyptians did in fact travel along the coasts of Southeast Asia or even further afield, e.g. Europe and the British Isles.

And by way of proof, consider the similarities between South American "pyramids" , Egyptian tombs, and the mesopotamian ziggurats.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2020 at 15:28
Author Johnathan Black, Secret History of the World, suggests that the step pyramids were a step down from the Great Pyramids. As if the Egyptians lost their mojo and their skills for a while, maybe Romans led them to hide secrets to protect them and lost the knowledge. The Spinx may be representative of the "First" first what? Men, builders, gods?
https://gigalresearch.com/uk/publications-sphinx-secret.php 


Yet, when you read up on it, it's inside references to other lost texts like "The Sacred Books of the Temples" that bring together a description of the history of places of pilgrimage along the Nile. And what says this text? It says that these places were established by a group of "creative entities" the "Shebtiw" associated with Thoth. It is said that they, also called the "Elders", the "Falcons", were installed in a first place on Earth and that this first place isŠ Rostau! I.e. Giza! Also, according to this text, books and sacred objects of power were sealed in a secret place underground by "Shebtiw" and they built over it an immense enclosure and pillars to protect it. This place is called Bw-HMR, the place of the throne of the soul. In addition, in this text it is always suggested to us that the underground world of Giza is a microcosmic model of the passage of time and the process of the first creation in our physical universe ... you understand the Sphinx better now than before; this is not nothing!
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