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    Posted: 12 hours 8 minutes ago at 12:47

The only way to prove the Atlantis Account is true or fiction is to first objectively and throughly look to see if there is any strong match in history, instead of just assuming/asserting that it is a fiction of Plato's or just a handed down story.

The people talking in the Account actually say in one place that it is true history not made up (Timaeus 20e, 21b, 26f).

I could post some evidences but i want to know i am ot wasting my time first. Otherwise see my post in rival forum a year ago http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=37820 . What one or more matches evidences would convince people?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2019 at 02:18
Plato was an Athenian aristocrat, during a time that Athens leaned democratically, sometimes bordering on mob rule.  Dialogues are a means of writing that are good for getting a message past critics.  Is the message of the character of Socrates the same as Plato's message?  How can you tell?  What about the Laws, in which Socrates does not appear, except maybe as "the Athenian Stranger."  The Atlantis story is not told by the character of Socrates, so even if the message of the character of Socrates is the same as Plato's message, the story of Atlantis is from someone else.  Is that too part of Plato's message???  Does it even have to be either/or?

As far as allegorical is concerned:
1) Yes, it could be, 2) no, it is not obvious that it is. 3) if it was obvious, then Plato's critics probably could use it to get at him.  4) But, they can't, can they?  Because, obviously the Athenians are the good guys of the story.  Right? 

To me, the big question is what does the Atlantis story have to do with the rest of it, a cosmology told by Timaeus?  Some scholars consider the Atlantis story a little sugar to sweeten the cosmological medicine which is a lot less digestible.  It makes as much (or as little) sense as anything else.  Still, not very satisfying.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 15:31
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:


Plato wrote predominantly in dialogues, one can get tripped up in many places in his dialogues if one assumes that they are historically accurate.  For example, some believe that Timaeus of Lokri is a historical (Pythagorean), others deny it, still others think it is unimportant.  What Plato is doing in the Timaeus with the Atlantis story is less than obvious.  It is important, and how it is important is not clear.
Was Plato possibly in the position of Josephus a kind of captive historian? Is Plato describing penalty for impiety? 

Could the Atlantis example have been allegorical for the defeat of Athens, without naming them?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 15:06
Originally posted by truthsetsfree truthsetsfree wrote:

It depends where the pillars of Hercules were. My theory based on various evidences is that the pillars were at the most distant point of the world and were in Peru/Andes.
(Peru is more distant (west & south) than Mexico, though North America is centred further west than South America.)

The Atlantis Account is from Sais/Egypt not from Athens/Greece.

South America has more support than North America. For example the Atlas mountains are in Africa (beside South America) not in Europe (beside North America). (The Atlas also roughly mirror the Andes.) Also, Atlantis/Atlas is implied to be south-west of Gades in Spain in Europe.
According to one translator's version of the Atlantis Account it says the Atlanteans invaded "from next Libya (Africa)".
North America was mostly covered by ice.
South America is centred more east that North America, and Africa sticks out further west than Europe does.

Latitude may have changed since pole shifts are known to have happened.
Yes but if North America is covered in ice then no one has crossed Beringia land bridge and no one theoretically is living in South America. What is the timeline? 


Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:


 "a remote land in the middle of the ocean" (Timagenes).

Timagenes can only talk about the middle of the ocean as far as he understands it. If Atlantis is the middle of the ocean that Timagenes knows, the land inside pillars, then he means the Atlantic. If he claims to see it from Greece then he must be at close latitude,?  


The Mediterranean is not an "(middle of the) ocean".
"Remote" is not close to Greece.
Timagenes is not the first hand source so he is less reliable. I only quoted him and others as showing their rough general view/impression/understanding/interpretation of Plato's words meanings (re Atlantis' distance being far not near).

The Atlantic/Ocean would both sides of Atlantis/America(s).
The view was from either Egypt or Atlantis rather than from Greece.

[/QUOTE]
Critias has motivation to construct a narrative. Critias has been compared to Robespierre for the "iniquitous deeds" (Plato) of the Thirty Tyrants after Athens was conquered. 
wiki-The Thirty Tyrants-
If the poles and plates were moving in such a way that it brought Africa and South America back into close vicinity then why is the enormous event barely mentioned?

Encyclopedia.com Continental Drift-
Another important piece of evidence was discovered in the early twentieth century. When molten lava freezes, it preserves traces of Earth's magnetic field. Basalt, which freezes deep underground, also records Earth's magnetic field at the time the basalt cooled. Measurements of the direction of Earth's magnetic field from many different rocks of different ages on different continents indicate either that Earth's magnetic poles have moved all over the planet or that the continents themselves have moved.
 


Edited by Vanuatu - 19 Sep 2019 at 15:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 15:03
"Gather 'round the fire children and I'll tell you a story of a wonderous land which disappeared without trace........"

I await the outcome of scientific searches before I'll accept some of the stories from our ancient past.

Of course, there were stories told just for entertainment. Could this be another one?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 13:23
And yet, we are in the time of Solon, and even in the time of Plato, at an early stage of literacy, which means that people often still had good memories for important things.  But, still I believe that grandfather Critias had to be quite old and the younger Critias quite young when the story was passed from one to the other, the younger being perhaps 8 or 9.

Ocean geology is different than Continental (and I assume, Island) geology.  The oceans are heavy Basaltic rock, whereas the continents are lighter granitic rock sliding on top of the basaltic rock.
There are no great candidates for a sunken Atlantic, let alone Mu or Lemuria.
Underwater sonar maps have pretty much shown that.

Sonchis is not mentioned in Plato, and in my opinion, comes from outside sources, being an Egyptian priest contemporary with Solon (therefore "must" be the priest talking to Solon.)

I consider most if not all accounts derivative of Plato, as the Carthaginians gave way to the Romans, it was necessary to push the location of Atlantis further out, for the 'just' beyond the pillars of Hercules didn't cut it any more.

Plato wrote predominantly in dialogues, one can get tripped up in many places in his dialogues if one assumes that they are historically accurate.  For example, some believe that Timaeus of Lokri is a historical (Pythagorean), others deny it, still others think it is unimportant.  What Plato is doing in the Timaeus with the Atlantis story is less than obvious.  It is important, and how it is important is not clear.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2019 at 12:27
But therein also provides a clue that the story was a "hand me down" which could have been exagerated over time. This is not uncommon practice.

Could it be that a story was made up, repeated and added to until the final Plato version was produced?

Modern scientists have explored the sea floor in the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean near Gibraltar but nothing suggestive of Atlantis has been found, although, I suppose, over the millenia all traces could have been covered by silt.

I would totally reject claims that Atlantis may have been somewhere to the west, closer to the USA.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2019 at 07:41


If Atlantis of the Atlantis Account is true then it is found in other sources and in the true site.
Some think that the Medinet Habu inscription about the Sea Peoples matches the Atlanis Account's ivasion of the Atlanteans.
One has to objectively  look to see it there is a quality match in real history without bending the details of the account.
Tiahauanaco/Tiwanaku does has strong matches with  the capital city of Atlantis.  I can supply this further proof ifyou wish (though I already did in another forum).
The great city of Asshur in Genesis 10 may match both Tiahauanaco and Atlantis city.
The Atlantiss Account is ont Plato's. It came to Plato from Sonchis and Solon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2019 at 12:53
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Just for a moment, accept what Plato wrote as fact. That being the case, Atlantis was located near to the Pillars of Heracles, the Straits of Gibralta.

Personally, I don't know that Atlantis ever existed.
Hi, 
Isn't saying "Pillars of Heracles" equivalent to saying the known world ?  

Yes, at least the eastern end of known Europe.

But, all we have is Plato's writings,  no further proof although quite a few have quoted him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 2019 at 09:41
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

"- Atlantis was beyond/by the pillars of Hercules. "Atlantis was inside the Pillars, Athens was outside the Pillars". protu "before" the pillars. The pillars of Hercules were the furtherest point of the world, and were at  least as far as Gibraltar where they have usually been thought to be. Hercules visited the Atlas mountains and the Hesperides in the far west. (Peruvian was one of the furtherest ancient high cultures of the world.)"

If it is as you say then Atlantis would be oriented towards north America. The latitude at the Yucatan/Florida vs Peru is quite a drop South. 

Even if Peruvians were high enough to see distant lands, the Athenians were not and they would be looking at the bending of the horizon even with a potential visual telescopic enhancement. 


It depends where the pillars of Hercules were. My theory based on various evidences is that the pillars were at the most distant point of the world and were in Peru/Andes.
(Peru is more distant (west & south) than Mexico, though North America is centred further west than South America.)

The Atlantis Account is from Sais/Egypt not from Athens/Greece.

South America has more support than North America. For example the Atlas mountains are in Africa (beside South America) not in Europe (beside North America). (The Atlas also roughly mirror the Andes.) Also, Atlantis/Atlas is implied to be south-west of Gades in Spain in Europe.
According to one translator's version of the Atlantis Account it says the Atlanteans invaded "from next Libya (Africa)".
North America was mostly covered by ice.
South America is centred more east that North America, and Africa sticks out further west than Europe does.

Latitude mayhave changed since pole shifts are known to have happened.


Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:


 "a remote land in the middle of the ocean" (Timagenes).

Timagenes can only talk about the middle of the ocean as far as he understands it. If Atlantis is the middle of the ocean that Timagenes knows, the land inside pillars, then he means the Atlantic. If he claims to see it from Greece then he must be at close latitude,?  


The Mediterranean is not an "(middle of the) ocean".
"Remote" is not close to Greece.
Timagenes is not the first hand source so he is less reliable. I only quoted him and others as showing their rough general view/impression/understanding/interpretation of Plato's words meanings (re Atlantis' distance being far not near).

The Atlantic/Ocean would both sides of Atlantis/America(s).
The view was from either Egypt or Atlantis rather than from Greece.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2019 at 22:42
"- Atlantis was beyond/by the pillars of Hercules. "Atlantis was inside the Pillars, Athens was outside the Pillars". protu "before" the pillars. The pillars of Hercules were the furtherest point of the world, and were at  least as far as Gibraltar where they have usually been thought to be. Hercules visited the Atlas mountains and the Hesperides in the far west. (Peruvian was one of the furtherest ancient high cultures of the world.)"

If it is as you say then Atlantis would be oriented towards north America. The latitude at the Yucatan/Florida vs Peru is quite a drop South. 

Even if Peruvians were high enough to see distant lands, the Athenians were not and they would be looking at the bending of the horizon even with a potential visual telescopic enhancement. 

 "a remote land in the middle of the ocean" (Timagenes).

Timagenes can only talk about the middle of the ocean as far as he understands it. If Atlantis is the middle of the ocean that Timagenes knows, the land inside pillars, then he means the Atlantic. If he claims to see it from Greece then he must be at close latitude,?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2019 at 22:27
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Just for a moment, accept what Plato wrote as fact. That being the case, Atlantis was located near to the Pillars of Heracles, the Straits of Gibralta.

Personally, I don't know that Atlantis ever existed.
Hi, 
Isn't saying "Pillars of Heracles" equivalent to saying the known world ?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2019 at 02:32
Pausanias
Eratosthenes (Er-a-tos-the-nes)

Helice (or Helike) (He-li-ke) is an Achaean polis. Sybaris in Magna Graecia was founded from there.  The ocean being impassable in the Atlantis account, sounds like the impassability of the Helicean shores.  Although the gates of Heracles were in another way impassable, because it was Carthaginian waters and the Carthaginians would keep the Greeks out.

Plato died in 348.  The Timaeus and the Critias fragment are the last thing he wrote, besides the Laws.
so the guesstimation is that he wrote it c. 358.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 15:19
Helice the capital of the Ionians, along with mountains and a large swath of the Corinthian coast just slid into the sea 373 BC. No earthquake or fire according to one account, the supports of the the land shelf just collapsed. This is during the Peloponnese Wars when Sparta was dominating before the Doric invasion. 
In 1861 an 8 mile crack along a mountain in Helice slipped into the water. Taking the plain and trees into the sea. Rocks, trees and solid ground are visible just above the water. The accounts of Pausanius and observers in 1861 are similar in the description of coast land dropping into the sea. However the accounts after Eratosthenes of Helice starting with Pausanius, do include fire & brimstone/earthquakes.

Eratosthenes has an early account of local people at Helice who saw the markets sink and later the landmass prevented access to the sea. Fisherman couldn't take their boats out over the jagged fold of land. 

Also, fair enough that dates can be mistranslated, dropping a zero off the 9,000 before Plato lived is agreed.
Atlantis/Helice paraphrased pp242

Imagining Atlantis

By Richard Ellis


Edited by Vanuatu - 14 Sep 2019 at 00:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 11:02
Solon, an ancestor of Critias, reportedly receives the story from the Egyptians.  I would guess, around 585 BC.  The story was told to Critias' namesake, and then to Critias.  As far as the transmission of the story, it is _just_ barely feasible.  There are two possible dates you may be asking about, when the dramatic date is, and when was it written.  I think it was written after the sinking of Helice.  Which sank in a earthquake and tsunami, and was a navigational hazard after that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 12:48
There's no lack of earthquakes or natural disasters ever but the dating of Tiahuanaco is bit of a problem. 

When do we say Plato's account was written?

Other cultures have this development in literature, the flood stories are in the earliest texts. Floods are terrifying, a captivating story telling device because it is the truth of life on earth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2019 at 18:53
Originally posted by Allegro Allegro wrote:

If Atlantis is a real location then it must be either in Greece or close. Athenians and Atlantians did fight, so how can America claim the Atlantis location. It's a story. Is it based on real events, we don't know. Too much pseudo science.


Atlantis' Distance (was far not close) according to the source text(s) and ancient and modern views of the Account:

- Atlantis was "at a distant point in the Atlantic" (Plato).

- Atlantis was beyond/by the pillars of Hercules. "Atlantis was inside the Pillars, Athens was outside the Pillars". protu "before" the pillars. The pillars of Hercules were the furtherest point of the world, and were at  least as far as Gibraltar where they have usually been thought to be. Hercules visited the Atlas mountains and the Hesperides in the far west. (Peruvian was one of the furtherest ancient high cultures of the world.)

- Atlanteans were "invaders" (Tim 25d.)
(In the bible the Kittim were also "westerners" and "invaders". Compare modern alien space invaders.)

- "Atlanteans were unmixed with other mortal stock" (Crit 121).

- Atlantis was "at the ends of the earth", "remotest" (Dio Sic 3:56).

- "a remote land in the middle of the ocean" (Timagenes).

- 50 stades (500 miles) (Plutarch)

- Diodorus Siculus says Atlantis was "out in deep off Libya a number of days sail to west" / "many days sailing across the Atlantic".

- "5 days sail west of Britain". (Compare modern Atlantic crossing records.)

- "not far to the west of Europe ... memory of a larger island" (Proclus).

- Some scholars say that the Atlantis Account implies that Atlantis was in the outer "real ocean" ("Atlantic" or "world ocean") not in the inner sea indentation ("Mediterranean") (Plato 'Timaeus', Dio Sic, Aelian, Timagenes, Flem-Ath, Spanuth, compare geopolitics)?

- They invaded "upto Tyrrhenia (Italy) & Libya (nw Africa)" or "from next Libya"; "the whole of the land which is within the straits",
"all those who dwelt/lived outside/inside the pillars";
("against the whole of Europe & Asia".)

- "Thoth was born in a  distant country to the west which was  across a body of water."

(- Tarshish's name is associated with "a sea 2000 parasangs wide".)

- "Atlanteans were oustanding sailors (had 1200 ships)" (Spanuth's impression of Critias 117, 119).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 2019 at 04:24
It has ruled over the imagination, ever since it sunk beneath the waves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 2019 at 20:34
Just for a moment, accept what Plato wrote as fact. That being the case, Atlantis was located near to the Pillars of Heracles, the Straits of Gibralta.

Personally, I don't know that Atlantis ever existed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Allegro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 2019 at 15:20
If Atlantis is a real location then it must be either in Greece or close. Athenians and Atlantians did fight, so how can America claim the Atlantis location. It's a story. Is it based on real events, we don't know. Too much pseudo science.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2019 at 09:53
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

 
I don't believe Plato established a date for his story. 

9,000 years before his lifetime.
Plato said Atlantis existed about 9,000 years before his own time, and that its story had been passed down by poets, priests, and others. But Plato's writings about Atlantis are the only known records of its existence.


Edited by Vanuatu - 12 Sep 2019 at 14:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2019 at 06:30
Hi Domino, I don't know whether you have seen this, it's new to Nat Geo. Around 541 AD there's a massive eruption of Ilopango on the coast of Guatemala. The dates that coincide with Plato don't agree with the dating of this eruption but dates are sketchy things. Those who know admit that Plato's writings could be and likely are a composite work that was compiled over centuries.* Plato is descended from gods, knows Pythagoreans too? 
He seems as impossible as Jesus Christ. 
Isn't it possible that a meteor shower creating the geological evidence of bombardment could have been a volcanic eruption further south? And not during Plato's presumed lifetime? Between 12,000 and 140,000 years of sea dispersing the evidence of bombardment isn't a long time geologically but in 404 BC the Athenians were at war with Sparta, right? 


In 2001, Dull tried to estimate Ilopango’s effects on the local Maya, but he didn’t make further headway until 2008, when two major studies grabbed Dull’s attention. In one, geologists published new evidence that the historical “dust veil” of 536 was caused by a volcano. In the other, researchers announced that the Tierra Blanca Joven extended into marine sediments off the coast of El Salvador. The Tierra Blanca Joven eruption was even bigger than Dull and others thought.

Because the trees were so well preserved, Dull and his team could figure out how old they were when the Ilopango eruption killed them. These new data—a hundred new radiocarbon dates—point to the trees dying in the first half of the 6th century, most likely in the 530s to 540s.

Dull’s team also revised their estimate of Ilopango’s size, taking into account the thickness and spread of Tierra Blanca Joven deposits. They say that Ilopango may have even dwarfed the 1815 Tambora eruption, a huge volcanic event that ushered in “a year without a summer” because of the global cooling it caused. Ilopango likely launched up to a million tons of sulfur miles into the sky, high enough for stratospheric winds to spread the aerosols worldwide and trigger global cooling.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2019/08/colossal-volcano-behind-mystery-global-cooling-found/?cmpid=org=ngp::mc=crm-email::src=ngp::cmp=editorial::add=Science_20190828&rid=F2BB0F2A8054EA24A2EF725FAD8B79C3

* Wasn't Plato witness to the destruction of Athens during the Peloponnesion War? Hadn't Athens just been defeated by the Spartans for good? 
Domino, your efforts are appreciated it's a fascinating idea, thank you for contributing. I hope you keep it going I'd love to know the deal with Atlantis.


Edited by Vanuatu - 12 Sep 2019 at 14:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 14:36
Franciscosan wrote, in part
Quote I am assuming that the Atlantians and Athenians had something like trireme ships for war, and other ships for trade.  I believe Plato says "triremes" explicitly, (which were not invented until about the seventh century BC, as he says hoplites (instead of "heavily armed soldiers"), maybe Plato is being a little anachronistic.  But, in any case, they are triremes or something _more_ simple.  Is that a reasonable assumption?

Plato was born in about 424BC, the Trireme was built about 700BC which in terms of time is about 275 years before Plato was born, so he would have had the ability to know about them.

A popular idea is that Atlantis was written as an allegory, a representation of the threats facing ancient Greece.

If that is correct, Atlantis never actually existed.

It's occurred to me that as Timaeus and Critias were born about 60 odd years before Plato, it could have been that Plato took the story of Atlantis, and used Timaeus and Critias as proof that Atlantis existed. 

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https://www.thoughtco.com › ... › Classic Literature › Study Guides
 
Oct 5, 2018 - According to the dialogues, Socrates asked three men to meet him on this day: Timaeus of Locri, Hermocrates of Syracuse, and Critias of Athens. Socrates asked the men to tell him stories about how ancient Athens interacted with other states. ... The Atlantis tale is part of a Socratic dialogue, not a historical treatise.

I could accept the allegory theory.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2019 at 23:55
francisosan, according to the translation that you have are Timaeus and Critias telling Socrates about an event that actually took place? From the POV of the storyteller is it meant to be believed? "not a fiction, but a true story" 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2019 at 04:49
I am assuming that the Atlantians and Athenians had something like trireme ships for war, and other ships for trade.  I believe Plato says "triremes" explicitly, (which were not invented until about the seventh century BC, as he says hoplites (instead of "heavily armed soldiers"), maybe Plato is being a little anachronistic.  But, in any case, they are triremes or something _more_ simple.  Is that a reasonable assumption?

Watch the 2 or 3 minute video on youtube on the trireme Olympias (in the modern Greek Navy).  Do you believe that one of those (or 1200 of those) could make it across the Atlantic Ocean?  Or, rather, do you believe that a fleet of those could make it across the Atlantic Ocean?  Or maybe you believe that the Atlantians had super advanced vessels, do you believe that the Athenians also had super advanced, "mystical" vessels?  

I don't necessarily expect an answer, I just would like you to ask yourself those things.

The translation of the _Timaeus_and _Critias_ that I use is the Desmond Lee translation from Penguin Classics, in it he has a _circular_ map of the city according to the text.  That is why I assume the city and the citadel are on a circular plan.  Jowett was a Victorian, and his translation is a Victorian translation, he wasn't wrong for his time but is a little dated and stilted.  The main virtue of the Jowett translations these days, is that the copyright has lapsed, and so anyone can use them or publish them.  Our understanding of Greek has changed (developed 'further') and English usage has drifted, so that usages (wise) that were once familiar, sound odd these days.  But, from what I understand Jowett is good, overall, it is just that there other translations that are (maybe only incrementally) better.


Edited by franciscosan - 23 Aug 2019 at 04:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Domino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 2019 at 02:23
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Are you saying that ships of c. 10,000 ya could travel freely back and forth across the Atlantic, enough for Atlantians to subjugate the people of the Mediterranean?  Enough for the Athenian armada to travel across to destroy Atlantis?

Franciscosan,

Yes, they could cross the Atlantic. According to Plato, the country of Atlantis alone had 1,200 ships. The other nine countries had their own military forces. I believe the ships were kept in a harbor found on Davis Island. Follow the link to see the Atlantis harbour.

https://goo.gl/maps/8bUTN6oczb7vmHtGA


Also, Plato tells us how community leaders in Atlantis supplied men for the military service.


Plato:

“The leader was required to furnish for the war the sixth portion of war chariots, so as to make up a total of ten thousand chariots. Also two horses and riders for them, a pair of chariot-horses without a seat accompanied by a horseman who could fight on foot carrying a small shield. Also a charioteer, who stood behind the man-at-arms to guide the two horses; and, he was bound to furnish two heavily armed soldiers, two slingers, three stone-shooters and three javelin-men, who were light-armed, and four sailors to make up the complement of twelve hundred ships.

Such was the military order of the royal city—the order of the other nine governments varied, and it would be wearisome to recount their several differences.”

The military force of Atlantis that attempted to rule the world consisted of the combined forces of the ten counties that made up to Kingdom of Atlantis.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2019 at 23:07
Quote about 12,000 years ago, a massive comet broke up in outer space and hit the earth as 500,000 separate fragments, which bombarded North America and other areas for two days. The great impacts triggered earthquakes, floods, and forest fires throughout America and Mexico. 

Read about it here: 

https://www.scientificpsychic.com/etc/carolina-bays/origin-of-carolina-bays.html

That is when Atlantis was destroyed according to Plato.

I don't believe Plato established a date for his story. Nor does the website establish definitive detail about a date for an asteroid/comet bombardment, especially sine the site does mention that erosion factors push the date back to 140,000 years.
 
The Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis was soundly rejected by the scientific community (Pinter, et al. 2011)
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2019 at 23:02
Well it seems to me that modern scanning methods could easily find Plato's Atlantean canals without difficulty. Funnily enough, nothing of the sort has been found, Florida or elsewhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2019 at 06:53
Franciscosan, 

Benjamin Jowett used the term, wise, in his translation to describe the Plateau like land formation that held the royal palace. When they dug the canals, they divided the wise into two islands and one other land zone. This resulted in the triangular island being surrounded by two zones of land and three zones of water. This caused confusion in Plato’s story because it sounds the same as a castle surrounded by three  moats.

Plato:

“The palaces in the interior of the citadel were constructed on this wise: In the centre was a holy temple dedicated to Cleito and Poseidon, which remained inaccessible, and was surrounded by an enclosure of gold;”

Check out the divided wise using the map Image: https://goo.gl/maps/ixjnFPA9VthNmEUi6


Since the story has been translated by different translators, you will find that different terms are used in different ways.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2019 at 01:16
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

A small island? Atlantis was described as 'Bigger than Libya'. That's very substantial

Quote The Pyramids, gilding and ability to predict astrological events such as eclipses would indicate a long written history of records known to the Mayans and Aztecs. I have always found that curious.

There's always been comparisons of old and new world cultural expressions, that was why Thor Heyedahl went across the Atlantic in a reed boat, to prove the possibility.  

Agree, so the idea of weather/ geological changes like a "La Nina" or earth quake/tsunami- could have created limited opportunity for someone setting sail near the Azores to wander close to South America. 
Were it not for Trade Winds Thor would have been up doldrums's creek without a hammer.
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