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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Christopher Columbus
    Posted: 23 Apr 2018 at 14:28
Yes.Please do. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2018 at 14:18
Well, the economic imperative was always to accumulate more wealth, that's why Christo set off for India to trade for spices, silk etc. (or did he really set off for the East Indies-now Indonesia?)

That he ended up somewhere entirely different and went in pursuit of gold was a stroke of luck.

As for the science, that relates to his navigation as far as I can see, and if history has recorded it properly, he mucked up big time.

Politically, Spain, Portugal, England and France were at the forefront of colonising overseas territories. I think that apart from the power they could exert, this was also linked heavily with trade and what goodies they may have reaped from the newly colonised country.

If you like, and only if you like, these could be expanded upon.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2018 at 01:51
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

While being informative, your post doesn't really address the OP which is
Quote Why 1492? Fully discuss the economic, political and scientific factors that made Columbus' voyage possible.

The author of post isn't even involved in the discussion, how fully do you want to discuss this subject?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2018 at 01:45
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

While being informative, your post doesn't really address the OP which is
Quote Why 1492? Fully discuss the economic, political and scientific factors that made Columbus' voyage possible.

This is a response to your post. You don't mention science in your comments, for good reason.

Does the original author want to understand the science behind navigation? Weather? Trade Winds?
Which branch of science?

The inquiry into "SCIENCE" deserves a little more clarity, it's a mammoth subject.


Edited by Vanuatu - 23 Apr 2018 at 01:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr 2018 at 14:55
While being informative, your post doesn't really address the OP which is
Quote Why 1492? Fully discuss the economic, political and scientific factors that made Columbus' voyage possible.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Apr 2018 at 07:13
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

The OP stated 
Quote Why 1492? Fully discuss the economic, political and scientific factors that made Columbus' voyage possible.

To date we've gone all around what the OP asked for, and, to a fair extent, gone off track.

To be very brief, I suggest that:-
1. The economic was that Portugal, and all of the other so-called Colonising Countries, were searching for new trade markets and opportunities. Minds were starting to open to the fact that there must be a big world outside Europe and it was worth looking for it;

2. Politically, many European countries were vying for these same markets, and in order to capitalise on them, effort needed to be made and money spent on exploring and claiming land for the home country. World dominance by another name?

3. The only scientific factor that I can think of is the revelation that the world is not, in fact, flat, and one would not sail off the end. It therefore made sense that if one put to sea and sailed either due east or due west, one should most certainly find new lands, and benefit from the discovery.

Of course these are the simple facts, and they can be elaborated upon if someone so decides.
Speal for yourself.
The Templars were the money & the building & the political behind voyages from the Iberian Pennisula directly led by the Order of Christ or the Templars of Tomar. Suddenly 
Isn't Wiki good enough for you guys anymore?Tongue

Tomar (Portuguese pronunciation: [tuˈmaɾ]), also known in English as Thomar, is a city and a municipality in Santarém District in Portugal. The town proper has a population of about 20,000. The municipality population in 2011 was 40,677,[1] in an area of 351.20 km².[2]

The town of Tomar was born inside the walls of the Convento de Cristo, constructed under the orders of Gualdim de Pais, the fourth grand master of the Knights Templar in the late 12th century.

Tomar is one of Portugal's historical jewels and more significantly was the last Templar town to be commissioned for construction. Tomar was especially important in the 15th century when it was a centre of Portuguese overseas expansion under Henry the Navigator, the Grand Master of the Order of Christ, successor organization to the Templars in Portugal.



Edited by Vanuatu - 18 Apr 2018 at 07:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2018 at 14:42
The OP stated 
Quote Why 1492? Fully discuss the economic, political and scientific factors that made Columbus' voyage possible.

To date we've gone all around what the OP asked for, and, to a fair extent, gone off track.

To be very brief, I suggest that:-
1. The economic was that Portugal, and all of the other so-called Colonising Countries, were searching for new trade markets and opportunities. Minds were starting to open to the fact that there must be a big world outside Europe and it was worth looking for it;

2. Politically, many European countries were vying for these same markets, and in order to capitalise on them, effort needed to be made and money spent on exploring and claiming land for the home country. World dominance by another name?

3. The only scientific factor that I can think of is the revelation that the world is not, in fact, flat, and one would not sail off the end. It therefore made sense that if one put to sea and sailed either due east or due west, one should most certainly find new lands, and benefit from the discovery.

Of course these are the simple facts, and they can be elaborated upon if someone so decides.


Edited by toyomotor - 15 Mar 2018 at 14:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2018 at 09:34
in wiktionary, riki is 'state' in Old Norse, and, maybe Icelandic.
Didn't see anything for Om, but you might run through wiktionary, varying the vowels particular, also ohm, ahm....  Of course, spelling was not standardized, until about the time of the enlightenment, for some dialects later.  The Scottish philosopher, David Hume's family name was sometimes spelled 'Home.'  The English have this preposterous belief that the word, "color" has a 'u' in it. ;)

From what I understand, the Portuguese had an old fashioned book burning, destroying the manuscripts of the Christians in India, because they were "heretical."  I believe that the Indians were followers of Thomas, like those who followed the Gospel of Thomas.  I don't know how much the Templars participated in that (did it), but given human nature I imagine they were in the middle of it, vying for power. 
What is that region quarreled over by India and Pakistan?  Kashmir?  There was a tradition that Jesus' grave was there.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2018 at 12:30
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I think that you mean Geniza (Genizah), not Ginza.  Ginza is a district of Tokyo.  Geniza is a repository for worn out Jewish documents, of which the Cairo and the Afghan Geniza are examples.  But, if it is in the Geniza documents or the Mandaeans it is safe from me.
Ginza are the holy books of the Mandaeans. http://gnosis.org/library/ginzarba.htm


Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Anyways, we are a long way off from Christopher Columbus.  From my understanding, the Arabs were cutting off the trade routes to the East, and the Venetians dominated what was left of those routes.  Portugal controlled the route around the Cape of Good Hope.
Portuguese Templars controlled the trade around the horn of Africa and had a port in Old Goa India. They built a fort, amassed great wealth. Some were eventually driven off and some were stranded there, just like in France. The fort still exists today. Multiple grave markers are preserved in old Goa and all 22 Portuguese grand masters are honored in writing. 

 
[/QUOTE]
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2018 at 06:22
50 years ago I saw a reference in an old norse script with a word very similar to the one more of you have mentioned earlier. 
The word was "Omerike" where we know that "rike" means land and "ome" was an expression for the edge of the world .... the world far out.

I have never been able to look it up again - maybe because I never got a chance to visit the same library again.

~ North


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2018 at 06:09
I think that you mean Geniza (Genizah), not Ginza.  Ginza is a district of Tokyo.  Geniza is a repository for worn out Jewish documents, of which the Cairo and the Afghan Geniza are examples.  But, if it is in the Geniza documents or the Mandaeans it is safe from me.

Anyways, we are a long way off from Christopher Columbus.  From my understanding, the Arabs were cutting off the trade routes to the East, and the Venetians dominated what was left of those routes.  Portugal controlled the route around the Cape of Good Hope.  And so Christopher Columbus, knowing the world was round, sailed West in order to get to the East.  The estimate for the circumference of the world that he chose was too small, and he was lucky that there was another continent(s) in the way.  Or if you prefer, he knew there was something out there all along, and he knew that if he went west he would run into it.  This version says that his original plan of sailing to the west to get to the East was a ruse.  I doubt that, but obviously the Vikings had gotten to the New World before then.

Did the Templars get there? I doubt it, but even if they did, they left no lasting, clear record of it.  Considering how the Jamestown colony died off, I could imagine an earlier colony dying off, if it existed in the first place.  Of course, English settlers thought the New England weather would be like theirs, due to the same latitude.  The didn't realize that the gulf stream went up the coast of Great Britain, bringing warm water, heating England, and then down the coast of North America, bringing cold water, freezing New England.  The Jamestown settlers weren't ready for the cold weather, and if these mythical Templars, being at the same latitude as Scotland, even existed, they wouldn't have been ready for the cold either.

btw, you might look up 'bay of jars, brazil'


Edited by franciscosan - 13 Mar 2018 at 06:17
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 22:40
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I was kinda hopin' for a direct quote of an ancient source that could be checked on.  Or a history of astronomy reference guide that talks about "Merika" and its modern equivalent.  Not a secondary source that is making all kinds of wild claims that, for example, the templars where in the New World in 1306.  Maybe they were, and maybe they weren't.  But, I consider the evidence to be tenuous at best, (and fraudulent at worst).  It is like people who believe that the Kings of Europe are descended from Jesus through the Merovingians.  It is a nice story until somebody takes it seriously.  There are conspiracies at work in the world, but usually they are active in the way marginal things get promoted.

As I've written previously, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

There are many archeological finds being made which are turning history on it's head, especially now with the technology available (and getting better all the time).

If in fact the star "Merika" is mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls, it could well be that the star was known to some early navigators.



The Mandaeans have a ritual that describes the prayer to the "Pole" star. The orientation of North, the direction that Mandaeans prayed to is not our sense of North. The people of the Tigris/ Euphrates considered directions; in front of, behind, left or right. True North for the Mandaeans and Essenes would have been South proper.

This information is from the Ginza or the Book of John or one of the liturgical works of the Mandaeans. No search for Merica in the Dead Sea Scrolls produces an answer. It cannot be the same name but the fact that the "Pole" star was a point of significance is established.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 11:25
I could do some research, and if i did some research, I might find it.  But, I have about five different books I am reading right now.  On the other hand, one thing I am researching some is the Dead Sea Scrolls, I believe I have a collection called "the Complete Dead Sea Scrolls."  If someone would care to mention which work it is found in, I could look it up, presumably.  Of course, if I don't find it in there, that doesn't mean it is not somewhere, but that does not cure my scepticism.

Yes, Vanuatu cited someone citing Waldseemuller.  I am not sure -ge is used as a suffix.  Faberge is something different.  I will have to look at it again.

Yes, Portugal controlled the trade around the horn of Africa, and had colonies in India, China, and probably Africa, so pottery in a harbor in Madagascar is plausible, but it is not the New World.  The Portuguese burned most of the manuscripts of the Thomas Christians in India.


Edited by franciscosan - 12 Mar 2018 at 11:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 10:45
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I would like to know which Dead Sea Scroll mentions it.  Yes, "it could all be that the star was to some early navigators."  If it was extant.

Yes, we know that the absence ... is not evidence ....  And in three weeks gravity may reverse itself, you can't say it won't!


1. Do some research, you may find it. Also see Waldseemullers book.

2. That's being a bit childish, isn't it? Of course I can't say it won't, you can't say it will......and round and round we go.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 10:35
I would like to know which Dead Sea Scroll mentions it.  Yes, "it could all be that the star was to some early navigators."  If it was extant.

Yes, we know that the absence ... is not evidence ....  And in three weeks gravity may reverse itself, you can't say it won't!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 10:06
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I was kinda hopin' for a direct quote of an ancient source that could be checked on.  Or a history of astronomy reference guide that talks about "Merika" and its modern equivalent.  Not a secondary source that is making all kinds of wild claims that, for example, the templars where in the New World in 1306.  Maybe they were, and maybe they weren't.  But, I consider the evidence to be tenuous at best, (and fraudulent at worst).  It is like people who believe that the Kings of Europe are descended from Jesus through the Merovingians.  It is a nice story until somebody takes it seriously.  There are conspiracies at work in the world, but usually they are active in the way marginal things get promoted.

As I've written previously, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

There are many archeological finds being made which are turning history on it's head, especially now with the technology available (and getting better all the time).

If in fact the star "Merika" is mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls, it could well be that the star was known to some early navigators.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 09:59
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Hello
Yes sailors talking about Merica. The name goes back to the Mandaeans who are a version of the Nasoreans (Essenes). Qumran Dead Sea Scrolls recorded this This link is a free google book, not sure how long it will be active.


The link you posted has triggered one of my interests, so much so in fact, that I've ordered a copy of Following the Ark of The Covenant.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 08:47
I was kinda hopin' for a direct quote of an ancient source that could be checked on.  Or a history of astronomy reference guide that talks about "Merika" and its modern equivalent.  Not a secondary source that is making all kinds of wild claims that, for example, the templars where in the New World in 1306.  Maybe they were, and maybe they weren't.  But, I consider the evidence to be tenuous at best, (and fraudulent at worst).  It is like people who believe that the Kings of Europe are descended from Jesus through the Merovingians.  It is a nice story until somebody takes it seriously.  There are conspiracies at work in the world, but usually they are active in the way marginal things get promoted.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 00:16
toyomotor, its speculation based on clues- a la Dan Brown. 
How about Templar pottery in Pirate's Bay off the coast of Madagascar(William Kidd)? An old carved ivory Christ, done in Templar style and a Seraphim carving were also recently found there. It's fun, lots of clues. Really makes sense about Portugal going from zero to - first King of Portugal asks for protection for the Templars. For certain the Templars defended Portugal against Muslim invaders.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 00:01
Hello
Yes sailors talking about Merica. The name goes back to the Mandaeans who are a version of the Nasoreans (Essenes). Qumran Dead Sea Scrolls recorded this This link is a free google book, not sure how long it will be active.



Edited by Vanuatu - 12 Mar 2018 at 00:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2018 at 11:57
A bout as much sense as Arkansas being pronounced Arkinsaw!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2018 at 08:43
no, I think that the name and origin of the supposed star, does not necessarily entail the name of the continent.   You have to have the sailors naming the continent _because_ of the star.  Not just the name of the continent and similarly the name of the star.

Of course, in Latin and English, an 'a' privative means "not" or the opposite.  anarchy, amoral, asymmetry.  So maybe the sailors were saying a-merica, it is 'not' the star.  Do you suppose? Thumbs Up

So merica makes sense as an abbreviation of what is America first and where you have dropped an a, but it doesn't necessarily make sense if you have merica first, and then are going to add an a.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2018 at 13:41
The question seems to be whether or not the particular land mass was known to seamen as America before or after the "discovery" by Don Amerigo Vespucci.

Also, is there a star which is now or was called "Merica"?

If the answer to that question is "Yes", when was the star named and by whom?

If those questions can be answered accurately, it also provides the answer to the question of what the land mass was called "originally". N'est pas?


Edited by toyomotor - 09 Mar 2018 at 13:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2018 at 13:01
i think you believe that america or amerika is stated independently of Amerigo Vespucci.  and that originates from this star merica.  First of all, in that article I don't see america as stated independently of Amerigo, I see it as said by some sailors, and there is no statement about whether they are independent or dependent on Amerigo's discovery.  Waldseemuller seems to say that it could be named after Amerigo, meaning perhaps the name has not yet been determined, and that Amerigo's discovery is as good of a reason as any other.  The version amerige would have Ge in it, the goddess of the Earth, Europa and Asia are also feminine.  so perhaps wanting to do the name one better, he suggested that version.  "America" is the feminine form of "Americus" Amerigo's latin version.

So there is some testimony of a star in the article, is there any testimony for such a star independently of this article, this writer?

To me Occam's razor suggests that the original story is the standard one with Amerigo Vespucci.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2018 at 00:07
http://fotw.info/flags/pt_oxp.html

Quote My understanding is that the Knights Templar were not proscribed in Portugal, and that many Templars fled to Portugal (and Scotland) where they were sheltered.
Exactly, they were not living openly as Templars after Phillip of France outlawed them. 

Quote But the Knights Templar didn't have the monopoly on the cross pattee, it was also used by other Catholics.
Yes, other Catholics such as the Portuguese Knights of Christ-that is why Columbus flew under the cross pattee. 
From the link:

About the Order

The Portugese Order of Knights of Christ, as I understand, originates from the Portugese priory of the Templars, which simply changed its name when the order was suppressed by Pope Clement, and everyone pretended not to notice that his “new” order just happened to have all the same members.
Will Linden, 11 May 1997

Historische Fahnen [neu32] tells us something like (my translation):

Following the dissolution of the Order of the Templars on instigation of the King of France in 1312, King Dionysius of Portugal in 1319 used their possesions to found the Order of Christ, which also took over the order’s symbol.

In 1494 the right to conquer the new world was divided between Portugal and Spain. In America the division placed Brazil in the Portuguese Zone, where the introduction of Christianity was primarily due to the Order of Christ, whose Cross Brazil bore in its arms until 1889.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2018 at 19:36
Re:- Columbus' association with Templars.

My understanding is that the Knights Templar were not proscribed in Portugal, and that many Templars fled to Portugal (and Scotland) where they were sheltered.

But the Knights Templar didn't have the monopoly on the cross pattee, it was also used by other Catholics.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2018 at 17:24

Quote Now, Columbus was not attempting to reach what is now known as the East Indies, modern day Indonesia, he was trying to reach Asia.

That Christopher Columbus could have navigated so poorly as to end up virtually on the other side of the earth, is a mystery to me.
He disagreed with other navigators about the circumference of the earth, thinking earth to be much smaller. 

Much has been made of Columbus's connections with the Knights Templar. He was married to a daughter of a former Grand Master of the Knights of Christ, a Portuguese order that had grown up after the Templars had been driven underground. It's been noted as significant that Columbus navigated ships whose sails carried the distinctive red cross 'patte' of the Templars.
Mark Booth / <cite>The Secret History of the World</cite>




Edited by Vanuatu - 08 Mar 2018 at 17:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2018 at 17:12
Just skim the article. 
Quote Burroughs' last book was "The Western Lands," ergo I submit to you that Burroughs was an Essene and a Templar.....Clap 

"Now go back and carefully re-read what Waldseemüller wrote. You will notice that Waldseemüller isn’t offering an original name he is simply musing on what form the name should take. Indeed, his preference seems to lie with the name Amerige, but he is willing to accept the name Americabecause it was already in use!"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2018 at 17:52
Franciscosan

Quote Australia is never called 'the new world,' because North and South America got there first!

You're right. Australia is and was called The Great Southern Land.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2018 at 12:03
couldn't find anything under 'Merica.'  Of course, the specific name of a star in an ancient foreign culture  might just be to specific for the internet.....
"Amerigo Vespucci's" name in Latin is Americus--hence-> America 
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