| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Did the Templar arrive in the Americas
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


Did the Templar arrive in the Americas

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10912
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Did the Templar arrive in the Americas
    Posted: 27 Aug 2020 at 12:46
I just finished Shakespeare's _Merchant of Venice_, it is interesting how it portrays the culture through the characters and their relationship to Shylock the Jew.  He has loaned out money to the merchant of Venice, and on default is planning to take his other form of payment, a pound of flesh.  This of course, does not happen and Shylock converts to save his life, his daughter Jessica before that is planning to marry a Christian to get out of her father's oppressive household.

Medievals definitely did not have the same notion of economics that we do, perhaps it would be more like the Muslim ideas?
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Novosedoff View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Location: Moscow
Status: Offline
Points: 448
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2020 at 15:05
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

 I imagine that for some people, the Templar's banking smacked too much of usury, which was one of the accusation leveled against the Jews. 

In fact, the same French king, who wiped out Templars, also stood behind the expulsion of Jews from France Smile  Nonetheless, he soon realized that the money collected from remaining debtors were much less than what was paid by Jews in taxes.. 
I teach history to children, and I am proud that they leave my classes permeated with sh*t and hatred to meet the real world.
I see my personal historic mission in bringing madness to juvenile masses.
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10912
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2020 at 14:19
I asked on "my" coin forum if there was some thing called a templar coin?

This is the answer I got:

The Knights Hospitallier issued their own coins, from the various territories they controlled long after the Crusades were over, but the Templars didn't own territory or control a mint, so no, the Templars didn't issue their own coins. Most coins issued in the Crusader states in the Levant were issued in the names of the King of Jerusalem and the various principalities.

The "Templar Cross" was a cross pattee or cross potent, in heraldic terminology; lots of European countries used such cross symbols on their coin and they are not necessarily of Crusader origin. Most notably, Spanish and Portuguese coins both usually featured prominent crosses of this shape.

The origin of Templar banking is in the issuance of cheques for people going to and from the Crusader lands, one could deposit money in Italy, get a check, and cash it on arrival to "the Holy Land" instead of carrying the money with you on a risky journey.

I think we should remember that Islamic (Arabic) culture was the more sophisticated.  Thus, the Templars and other knights would pick up funny practices from them, like bathingWink.  I imagine that for some people, the Templar's banking smacked too much of usury, which was one of the accusation leveled against the Jews.  It probably was not exactly like usury, they were making money by providing a service in moving money around, but for some people it would have been a nice distinction.  [a fine distinction is a distinction that is there, but you have to look closely, a nice distinction is where when you get down to the details, there really is no distinction.]

Urr...  I should mention that there are no Templar coins known, I don't know if it would be possible that there once were Templar coins, which we don't know about, and which (if they exist) might be found in a hoard some day.  But, the smart money (betting) would be against such a possibility.  However, you would be surprised about how many coins from the ancient world, are known by one example, and that implies that many from the ancient world didn't make it past the melting pot.  It also would imply that there may be some examples of medieval coins that might also not have survived the ravages of time.




Edited by franciscosan - 26 Aug 2020 at 14:46
Back to Top
caldrail View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Rushey Platt
Status: Offline
Points: 1420
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2020 at 21:19
I would urge caution. Whilst there's an outside chance the Templars deposited their ill gotten gains in the New World, it's still a long shot. As always the emergence of ideas like this has less to do with any coincidential iconography or direct evidence, but the idea that there's a treasure hoard waiting to be found. There is nothing more powerful to hook people in worthless endevours than the promise of buried treasure. The love of money is the root of all wasted effort
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
Back to Top
Novosedoff View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Location: Moscow
Status: Offline
Points: 448
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2020 at 01:23
Perhaps the most relevant link for this thread would be the following
I teach history to children, and I am proud that they leave my classes permeated with sh*t and hatred to meet the real world.
I see my personal historic mission in bringing madness to juvenile masses.
Back to Top
Novosedoff View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Location: Moscow
Status: Offline
Points: 448
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2020 at 18:13
Smile I don't know much about what treasures Templars could bring with them to America (I suppose for multiple conspiracy theorists on this forum my skepticism about Templars in the New world wouldn't matter anyway), however some sources claim that the movement of treasures between Europe and America was in the opposite direction:

 

PS Btw It's also interesting to notice how the relative exchange value of Gold and Silver was changing over time. It used to be in the range 1:10 to 1:20 in the time of Roman empire.   The above ratio from Tomas Sowell's book looks more like 1:90. Then a few golden rushes followed that actually inflated silver's value. But there have been silver rushes too. Today's exchange rate between gold and silver is more like 1:70.


Edited by Novosedoff - 22 Aug 2020 at 04:14
I teach history to children, and I am proud that they leave my classes permeated with sh*t and hatred to meet the real world.
I see my personal historic mission in bringing madness to juvenile masses.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 2884
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2020 at 18:14
http://www.worldhistoria.com/topic129916.html

Our previous discussion at WH on Templars or first Europeans in new world
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 2884
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2020 at 16:58
Originally posted by Pelagon Pelagon wrote:


maybe this article as much as unofficial or superficial story is give new perspective when how and why later successors of that secret society gone to Amecrica


if there is one thing for sure vatican and its continental opponents had have arrived in America, and maybe more correct question is did the templars gold was used for such stunt, or did sympathizers of dualism used also same symbology as templars, do they have ideological continuity, does cathars have made freemasonry after the templar abolishment, or eventually why vatican is suppressing this truth if these statements in the linked letter are real, are they afraid that such revelation will make power disbalance in the western world coz now obviously these two medevil european power wings are united in usa, one thing is fact that templars vanished but middle century european dualism hasnt, even more now is reinvented in the eu and usa neopagan folklore of their state amblems anthems and constitutions where for Christianity there is no place or is simply pushed at margins in their societies, I'll say its not even dualism in its core but satanism, tho they use the dualistic niche so the can fool any naive Christian to take any part in their nwo matrix!

Welcome Pelagon Smile
The Templars built castles in Portugal after King Phillip VI ordered them to be driven from France. 
Oak Island, Nova Scotia has turned up some treasures and figurines associated with Knights Templar.
The symbolism is universal but as we know it changes when ideas and people are separated for centuries. 

American Indians & Aborigines used the Swastika meaning "luck" and "well being" respectively, Hindus also used it as a benevolent icon. So has the Templar Iron Cross changed in meaning considerably.
 
The Curse of Oak Island: The Templar Coin (S2, E5) | History - YouTube



Edited by Vanuatu - 09 Aug 2020 at 18:33
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
Back to Top
Guest View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2020 at 05:36

maybe this article as much as unofficial or superficial story is give new perspective when how and why later successors of that secret society gone to Amecrica


if there is one thing for sure vatican and its continental opponents had have arrived in America, and maybe more correct question is did the templars gold was used for such stunt, or did sympathizers of dualism used also same symbology as templars, do they have ideological continuity, does cathars have made freemasonry after the templar abolishment, or eventually why vatican is suppressing this truth if these statements in the linked letter are real, are they afraid that such revelation will make power disbalance in the western world coz now obviously these two medevil european power wings are united in usa, one thing is fact that templars vanished but middle century european dualism hasnt, even more now is reinvented in the eu and usa neopagan folklore of their state amblems anthems and constitutions where for Christianity there is no place or is simply pushed at margins in their societies, I'll say its not even dualism in its core but satanism, tho they use the dualistic niche so the can fool any naive Christian to take any part in their nwo matrix!

Back to Top
caldrail View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Rushey Platt
Status: Offline
Points: 1420
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2015 at 20:13
Quote How much the Templars had to do with intellectual issues, particularly foreign ones, I cannot say. 

I can. Virtually none. They were an order of monastic warriors who used the concept of 'Just War' as authorised by Pope urban II. I daresay there were men among them who had more worldly aims than military service for the fun... Erm... service to God, but intellectual they were not.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
Back to Top
Guest View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2015 at 15:33
I hope the Templars are reading these posts and having a laugh.   LOL
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10912
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2015 at 09:00
No offense taken.  Indeed, I may need to get smacked down sometimes when I get too uppity;)  I've got a pretty thick skin.

I just wish that "EthanDeMolay" had responded when others picked up the thread.  It was fun kicking around the issue, anyways, but it is better when the starter of the thread continues with it.
Back to Top
Guest View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2015 at 10:30
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Yes, but if the freemasons are in the Americas, and there is a continuity between the Templars 
and the freemasons, either directly, or indirectly through a group like the Sufis, then could one
in a sense, say that the Templars are in the Americas?  The Sufis used guild meetings as a pretext
for their assemblies, knowing that kings would be alarmed by strange groups congregating, kind of like
the masons did.
I say, "in a sense" because these groups are different groups, although they may overlap, Templars "as such" probably never made it to the New World, although I wonder if their heirs in Portugal (Order of Christ?) made it to Brazil.
Sometimes, Toyomotor, to answer a question, the question must be posed first, that is all I am trying to do.  With the purge of the Templars in France _around_ 1312, and the "New World" discovered in 1492, well, one would have to explain how the Templars could be "underground" for c. 180 years, and then pop up in the New World, like daisies in the Spring.  It would make a nice alternate reality for a role playing game, but you're right, ultimately all it is, is speculation.  

Fransicoan:
Mate I'm not putting you down in any way, you're also right, there may be connections through other groups. Like many other people I don't think the Templars simply died out. There were a number of countries where they were given refuge, Portugal and Scotland being only two of them.

I'm sorry if I offended you, that certainly was not my intention
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10912
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2015 at 09:53
Yes, but if the freemasons are in the Americas, and there is a continuity between the Templars 
and the freemasons, either directly, or indirectly through a group like the Sufis, then could one
in a sense, say that the Templars are in the Americas?  The Sufis used guild meetings as a pretext
for their assemblies, knowing that kings would be alarmed by strange groups congregating, kind of like
the masons did.
I say, "in a sense" because these groups are different groups, although they may overlap, Templars "as such" probably never made it to the New World, although I wonder if their heirs in Portugal (Order of Christ?) made it to Brazil.
Sometimes, Toyomotor, to answer a question, the question must be posed first, that is all I am trying to do.  With the purge of the Templars in France _around_ 1312, and the "New World" discovered in 1492, well, one would have to explain how the Templars could be "underground" for c. 180 years, and then pop up in the New World, like daisies in the Spring.  It would make a nice alternate reality for a role playing game, but you're right, ultimately all it is, is speculation.  
Back to Top
Guest View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2015 at 11:46
This thread has wandered a little from the OP, but whether or not people upholding the Templar traditions and or calling themselves Templars ever arrived in the New World is a question that can not be answered, with any authority until/unless evidence is found to corroborate that fact.

To date, to the best of my knowledge, no such evidence has been found.
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10912
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Dec 2015 at 12:44
In The Portable Medieval Reader, assembled and illuminated by James Bruce Ross and Mary Martin McLaughlin.  "An Arab opinion of the Crusaders" by Usamah (line over first 'a').

The Crusaders who have been in the holyland are different from the new arrivals.  Usamah goes to the Alaqsa Mosque (dome of rock??), which was occupied by Templars [who believe that the temple mount is the site of Solomon's palace], he starts pray toward Mecca, and a big Frank comes up to him and insists that he should pray to the East.  The Templars come over and they get him away from Usamah, who continues his prayers.  Later, when the Templars are busy with something, the big Frank breaks away and accosts Usamah again, the Templars come over again and apologize saying that the Frank was new and had never seen anyone pray except eastward.  At that point Usamah said to himself that he had prayed enough and left.

We should remember that the Crusades last over 200 years, and the Templars were active in the 'holyland' for 180 years(?).  Also, the reconquista had started in Spain before that, and Sicily also fell to Christians (Normans?), so the crusades probably should be put into that context.  In other words, Christian Europe was in general becoming engaged with the Muslim world, not only becoming militarily engaged, but culturally and intellectually also.  Astronomy and medicine entered into Europe through Spain, Greek texts originated more from Sicily, where there were Greek settlements in Sicily and Southern Italy.  Of course, the Byzantine Empire would become a source of manuscripts as well.  The holyland, as far as I can tell, was not so much a major source, although Aristotle manuscripts were found at Antioch.
oh, from what I understand, the Byzantine Empire invited the 'Franks' to throw out the Muslims of the holyland, only thing is, the Byzantines wanted the Franks to throw out the Muslims and _give_ the land back to the Byzantine Empire.  oops, best laid plans of mice and men, often gang awry.

How much the Templars had to do with intellectual issues, particularly foreign ones, I cannot say.  But I cannot help but think that along with wealth and power and the younger sons of nobles, came education to some degree, literacy, mathematics, bookkeeping and banking.  Bernard of Clairvaux who is sometimes called the last Church Father, agitated for the second Crusade and was the clerical 'mascot' for the Templars.  The Templars, at least in the 12th c. when Usamah was writing, were not necessarily hostile towards the Muslims.

I think the Muslim world likes to blame its intellectual decline on the Crusades, but really it was other factors, the invasion of the Mongols, destruction of the House of Wisdom in Bagdad, and the rise of the Ottoman Empire that changed the intellectual direction for the worse.  The Franks were by any account uncouth barbarians, but through contact with the 'East,' a certain vitality and also a sophistication entered into Western European culture, with the High Middle Ages in the 1200s, and the Renaissance in the 1400s. 
Back to Top
caldrail View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Rushey Platt
Status: Offline
Points: 1420
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2015 at 20:15
Quote I don't quite understand what you are saying, it seems to me like you are saying it can't be so because how Christian belief is defined in the Middle Ages, and how that [a priori??(before the fact)] would exclude friendly contact with Sufis or others.

Chritianity was particularly strong in Europe during the Middle Ages. Indeed, but for the mistake of setting off the Crusades, the Catholic Church was, at the end of the eleventh century, within shooting distance of creating a pan-european religious dictatorship. Now the Crusades are very revealing. I don't doubt for a moment that many went for a good fight or to exploit the situation for profit (and the three main leaders squabbled about who was in charge), but the Pope had only to announce that Jerusalem should be freed from the heathen turks, that going to war for God was a penance for the violence concerned, and that killing heathens was a lesser sin than killing christians, then he sparked off a mass migration. Even entire villages of ordinary common folk packed their bags and went east to try and help - though the vast majority of them ended up as slaves or worse.

The power that christianity had over hearts and minds back then was astonishing. Worse, it caused sporadic anti-semitism (the crusaders slaughtered jews here and there on the way east), because the Jews were supposed to be the people who had sentenced the son of God to death.

This hard edged attitude was not conducive to alliances with heathen groups, though in some cases such as the one I mentioned, it did occur. The tragedy was that Islam in those days was a somewhat more enlightened system of belief, and that in Jerusalem moslems and christians happily co-existed, and it is true that some crusaders weren't exactly fussy about who they slaughtered when they finally got inside the walls of the holy city.

So for attitude, greed, political exploitation, and religious sensibility, an easy going alliance with a moslem group was not a likely scenario back then.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10912
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2015 at 16:18
I don't quite understand what you are saying, it seems to me like you are saying it can't be so because how Christian belief is defined in the Middle Ages, and how that [a priori??(before the fact)] would exclude friendly contact with Sufis or others.  I am merely suggesting that maybe one should look first, at different sources relevant to the issue.  See if they are actually friendly at times, and worry about a definition of how monastic fighting orders were later.

Jimmy Carter gave the eulogy at Gerald Ford's funeral.  The relevance of this is that one could say that the two men "couldn't" be friends, because one was a democrat and one was a republican, and furthermore, Carter beat Ford in the general election, but the fact is that they were and they both agreed to give each others eulogy, so happens that Carter was the one who got the honor.

Idries Shah and Robert Graves give examples of heraldry of Christian knights that 'tip their hat' in honoring the sufis.  Now (1) that is not the purpose of Shah's book on _the Sufis_' that is merely a tangential issue.  (2) Graves and Shah are a little fringe, which of course means that Graves' historical
novels are quite interesting, but Graves pushes the envelope a little, and I think that Graves and Shah would admit this.  (3)  nevertheless, Graves has some amazing scholarship, if he is unorthodox (and he is), it is not out of ignorance.  He did a standard translation for Suetonius and Apulius.

I tend to think that there was something there when the Templars opponents accused them of being Muslim.  Maybe it was merely the fact that they took baths, or did checks and double entry book keeping.  But, it is not my area, and I don't want to go beyond the books I have on hand.  So I am not saying that there is a connection, I am just saying, for myself, I don't want to be quick to deny it.  I would have to do a lot more homework, and I have other things on my plate.

BUT, if the sufis influenced and were influenced by the Templars, then the fact that the Templars weren't around when the Masons started, might not be such a big deal.  The sufis, who used guild meetings to cloak their congregational meetings (assemblies were often assumed to be subversive in nature), could be a bridge for authentic tradition from Templars to Masons.  
So could the Templars have come to the new world?  I would say not directly, but possibly some of their traditions via Freemasonry, made it to the new world.  Now Caldrail will say this is all speculation, and he may be right, but maybe it wouldn't be such a leap if we broke it down to smaller pieces, investigating whether there was a connection between Templar and Sufi (checking on Graves and Shah's heraldry), and then whether there was a connection between sufism and freemasonry.
Back to Top
caldrail View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Rushey Platt
Status: Offline
Points: 1420
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 2015 at 20:25
Quote I am using "fanatics" in a general sense, the Dalai Lama, while pacific in his outlook, is surely extreme in his regimen.  The sufis are extreme, believing that they will meet Allah in this world, instead of waiting for the next one (the difference between sufis and other muslims is that sufis won't wait, but get into ecstatic practices, the most familiar being the dance, the whirling dervishes.
Sufis today are often not considered by the majority to be 'proper muslims' and I wouldn't be surprised if this attitude has been there for a long time.  So, I wonder if there not only could be alliances of convenience between Templars and Sufis, but also longer standing alliances.

Difficult to see that. Christian belief in the middle ages, and in particular that applied to monastic fighting orders, was bound to be harder edged in a period of cultural commitment. Sufi, as a branch of islam, was not conformal to western sensibilities and thus any alliance was based on immediate necessity rather than any perceptual compatibility, of which there was none. Such alliances did exist - the crusaders briefly used an islamic order of assassins (Remamber the Monty Python sketch about suicide troops training by throwing themselves off a tower? These guys did something similar. To demonstrate their complete loyalty, the leader of the cult told one of his men to throw himself off the tower of the castle. And down he went, no hesistation. It certainly impressed the Crusaders, but the alliance did not persist).

Quote Getting back to the OP. What if Templars did survive and some travelled to the Americas. Would that explain some of the strange symbology on US Bank Notes which are attributed to Masonry?

That's just speculation. The masonic angle on US banknotes is not universally accepted either. I saeem to remember the symbology was used by masons from a later date but I might be wrong about that.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
Back to Top
Guest View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 2015 at 10:33
Getting back to the OP. What if Templars did survive and some travelled to the Americas. Would that explain some of the strange symbology on US Bank Notes which are attributed to Masonry?

I doubt it somehow, but who knows?


Edited by toyomotor - 30 Nov 2015 at 10:34
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10912
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2015 at 13:29
I am using "fanatics" in a general sense, the Dalai Lama, while pacific in his outlook, is surely extreme in his regimen.  The sufis are extreme, believing that they will meet Allah in this world, instead of waiting for the next one (the difference between sufis and other muslims is that sufis won't wait, but get into ecstatic practices, the most familiar being the dance, the whirling dervishes.
Sufis today are often not considered by the majority to be 'proper muslims' and I wouldn't be surprised if this attitude has been there for a long time.  So, I wonder if there not only could be alliances of convenience between Templars and Sufis, but also longer standing alliances.  
Back to Top
caldrail View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Rushey Platt
Status: Offline
Points: 1420
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2015 at 21:31
Groups of religious fanatics don't really get along with anyone else as history and current affairs show quite well. They may have similar aims and thus work toward the same ends as allies, but cross fertilisation just ain't gonna happen, and the differences almost always cause some kind of split.  As it happens, religious fanatics often cannot agree among themselves, and thus splinter groups appear. After all, these days we have Daesh followers (or Islamic State if you prefer) executing Taliban and Al Qaeda members in places like Afghanistan. They might be all in the same ball park, it's just that the ball park isn't large enough for two ideological groups to co-exist happily.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10912
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2015 at 12:49
Oh, I don't know, could be one group of religious fanatics getting along great with another group of religious fanatics.  There were such things as Christian Dervishes, or so the stories say.  Some people say that Sufism goes back, pre-Muslim, and I know that I have found a sufi story also told about Thales of Miletus (the _1st_ philosopher), by Plutarch.  Of course, Robert Graves thinks that there is a connection between Templars and sufis, beyond just temporary allegiances, but Graves is a poet and so one should not take what he says at face value.  How exactly to interpret it, however, is another thing altogether.

Personally, I don't see anything about the idea of the Templar that excludes the idea of the Sufis, but then again, I haven't studied the Templars much.  I'm not sure it matters much to me.  In any case, there is (probably) no _direct_ influence of the Templars on the Scottish Rite Freemasons.
Back to Top
caldrail View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Rushey Platt
Status: Offline
Points: 1420
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2015 at 22:57
If they were allies, then that's fine, but it doesn't mean the two groups were connected by anything other than an agreement toward a mutually desired end.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10912
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 2015 at 10:21
I respectfully disagree, Robert Graves who is a very learned, but not unbiased source, connects the Sufis and the Templars as allies in King James of Aragon's taking of Majorca.  (from the Introduction of Idries Shah's book, The Sufis, I don't have very good sources on the Templars).  Now whether they were just allies of convenience in the moment, or had deeper affinities is another question.  However, if the Sufis were connected to Freemasonry, then the Templars could have influenced the freemasons, indirectly through the ideas of sufism.
Something like this:
Templars     Sufis influence Templars
Templars end  Sufis continue,   ["Templar" ideas continue within Sufism] 
XXXXXXX Sufis influence freemasonry, including "Templar" ideas.

That is one option for a continuity between Templars and Freemasons.

Another option is if the Templars/Free masons adopt the uwaisi.  Uwaisiyaan is a sufi (or free mason?) who has gained the spiritual chain from another Sufi without physically meeting them in this world.  This means of transmission is considered as power and effective as the physical relation of a Master & discipline.  Typically, this means through dreams and study and meditation.  Of course, us "reasonable" moderns would never believe that this could happen.  BUT, the sufis, the Templars and free masons could believe in this, and invoke it as a means of continuation of the chain or silsila.

Probably, a modern example of such a continuity is Peter Kingsley and his following of the ancient philosopher-poet and mystic, Empedocles of Akragas.  Of course, nobody has to believe in such explanations.  The point though, is that there are explanations out there and some people do believe in them, whether or not you believe in them.

Again, I would not say that this is compelling evidence, but I would consider it food for thought, and something that shows that it is possible, although not certain, then again, I am someone sceptic enough, to think that nothing is absolutely certain, no matter how much we might want it to be.
Back to Top
caldrail View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Rushey Platt
Status: Offline
Points: 1420
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 2015 at 20:31
The concept of a coming golden age is not unusual and not limted to christian mythos. I've just seen a book in my local library that deals with a spiritual awakening in 2032. It is of course contrived and complete rubbish. The author spouts endlessly about energies and enervations, yet links dates with religions around the world without any critical thought whatsoever. So for instance 2012 (the book was written prior to that date) was supposed to be a watershed, a time when the future is mapped out. Basically she adopted the date because of urban myth surrounding the ancient Mayan 'end of the Long Year' in the world was supposed to be destroyed and remade. So as a spiritualist writer she is using a pagan myth to appeal not only to those uncommitted or sympathetic to her beliefs, but also christians who relish the idea of the 'rapture', in which Jesus returns to relaim the faithful and leave the rest of us to basically tough it out It is no suprise therefore that satanism proclaims the forthcoming 'Dark Imperium' which bears a lot of resemblance to the End Timer prophecy, which itself has been repeated so many times it's a joke, ever since the Great Disappointment of 1844 - and the cults derived from that episode still haven't learned.

I wouldn't waste too much time searching for connections between medieval groups. There's little if any significance and sooner or later you'll find something that will suggest to you the idea is real. In comparisons, search for the differences, not the similarities. We're only too good as a species at finding convenient links - that's why purges throughout history inevitably get out of control.


Edited by caldrail - 23 Nov 2015 at 20:36
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10912
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2015 at 16:35
You know, many evangelicals are very interested in the end of days and the second coming, one reason for that is that they're not necessarily that fond of the first coming, Jesus doesn't meet up to their a--kicking expectations, except maybe in the temple, which anyone who believes in the prosperity doctrine might not exactly like that.  But that doesn't have much to do with Templars (or does it?).

Can anyone connect up the Templars to the Sufis?  I mean, besides the fact that they were in the same general area (the 'Holyland')?  Is there any Medieval literature on the Templars?  Maybe a connection to the troubadors??
Back to Top
caldrail View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Rushey Platt
Status: Offline
Points: 1420
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2015 at 01:05
Surreal? The only plausible manifestation of that is the theme of templar existence being used for urban myth. That's nothing new incidentially. Witness the furore when a former slave decided to impersonate the dead caesar Nero and start a revolution - which failed, despite popular support for a sort of 'second coming'.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10912
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2015 at 16:14
What about a surreal connection?

I like Lessing's writings on Freemasonry, and his play, _Nathan the Wise_ which has a Templar in it (in Saladin's Jerusalem).
Back to Top
caldrail View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Rushey Platt
Status: Offline
Points: 1420
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2015 at 19:54
There's probably no real connection between the two, but legend persists...

http://www.co-masonry.org/History/KnightsTemplar.aspx


Edited by caldrail - 16 Nov 2015 at 19:55
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.234 seconds.