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Time, linear, or cyclical?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 22:45
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

I've noticed over the years that scientists, releasing supposedly new information/explanations very often use terms like "probably", "suggestive of" and so on.

Time is one thing that I don't know can be proven, unless you've been here before.

Personally, I'm a sceptic.(Not septic LOL)
Well, we don't want to sound like the American democrats do wee?Wink
We can dream in the Alternative section.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 07:59
I was disappointed that the show Madame Secretary seemed to kind of drizzle out.  Talk about alternate reality it seems like during Republican administration, television has to concoct a different political reality.  You had the successful show, West Wing, during the George W Bush administration.  Then you had Madame Secretary.

A noun is a person, place, thing or Idea.  So time, the present, past, future definitely exist, if only as an idea, or family of ideas.  Now one can ask whether time has any meaning outside of the structure of consciousness, perhaps not.  But if you look at Immanuel Kant, time is part of the structure of consciousness, and for Kant a necessary part of the structure of consciousness.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 20:02
Vanuatu wrote
Quote “The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti

Especiallly when five countries have a power of veto.

Back to Time, regardless of whether it's linear, circular or cylindrical, how do you explain deja vu?


Edited by toyomotor - 14 Jun 2019 at 20:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 01:28
How do you want to explain deja vu?

I think it is a momentary lapse in attention, that when you come back to attention, you feel like you have been there before, because you have, just a second ago you were staring out into space, [attention lapse], and now again you are staring out into space (so to speak).

But sometimes there is the feeling that I _dreamed_ this moment before, and that it was terrifying in the dream (anxiety-filled), but when I get to it, it is fine.  Like dreaming of a test, and being immensely unprepared for the test, but when you actually get to (a) moment like that, being reasonably prepared, not because of the dream, but because you are.  Public speaking could be the same thing, dreamt, and then when you get to an actual case, no big deal.  (or big deal, but no problem).

I do believe that dreams _can_be_ prophetic.  I think deja vu is an attention phenomena, not (necessarily) a time phenomena, but you (or others) can explain it as such if you want.

veto envy.


Edited by franciscosan - 15 Jun 2019 at 01:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 01:51
Time is a structure that can't be escaped in material reality but it happens in dreams. I have vivid memories of three dreams that I had in childhood, they only happen in my recollection and I am not afraid of them anymore. 

Yet I can remember with clarity and detail as if they happened when I was awake.
Those memories seem as important as a Christmas morning that happens in 1975 in material reality.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 02:09
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu wrote
Quote “The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti

Especiallly when five countries have a power of veto.

Back to Time, regardless of whether it's linear, circular or cylindrical, how do you explain deja vu?
Right On!

Deja vu. 
IF past, present and future are simultaneous then an occasional "bleed through" could take the form of deja vu "didn't this already happen?" or of ESP "I think this will or won't happen" intuitively. 

Simultaneity is existence of God or (All That Is) without creation.  Changing states or oscillation provides a perception of linear progression. There is a theory that mostly agrees with relativity but is based on Absolute Simultaneity 

Plato in Timaeus "time and heaven [the world] came into being together that, having been created Simultaeneously [hama], if ever there was to be a dissolution to them, they may be dissolved Simultaneously [hama]. Hama being used here in the temporal sense, not in its etymological use "together."


Edited by Vanuatu - 16 Jun 2019 at 02:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 06:32
The French Philosopher, Pierre Hadot, says that the _Timaeus_ is work in the Orphic spirit, versus modern science which is Promethean, interrogation of nature kind of thing.  Think of how Orpheus charmed people, animals, even the rocks and trees, whereas Prometheus stole fire from the gods and also stole the crafts, and gave them to man (and got punished for that, but eventually got out of punishment).  Someday, I will read the Timaeus (again) and maybe that time I could make heads and tails of it!

Timaeus is also said to be Pythagorean.  But, that is like saying, "one thing (we don't understand) is like another thing (we don't understand)".  I think understanding the _Timaeus_, or the _Parmenides_ or the Philebus_, are always in modernity, partial understandings.

One thing the Pythagoreans talked about was Kairios (or Kairos?), the notion of the right time, timeliness, seasonality.  For example, the ninja turtles, (Leonardo, Michelangelo, Raphael and Donatello) are torwards the beginning of the renaissance.  They had immense talents, but they were also in the right place and the right time, to become the household names they are today.  There are "lesser" renaissance artists who were later, and were elsewhere, where they couldn't get the full breeze in their sails so to speak.  They might of technically been artists as good as the giants, or even better, but they were planted in the shade and couldn't get as much sunshine as the others.

Is the renaissance a linear time phenomenon, or a circular time phenomenon?  Or little bit of A, little bit of 2?  


Edited by franciscosan - 16 Jun 2019 at 07:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2019 at 04:21
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

The French Philosopher, Pierre Hadot, says that the _Timaeus_ is work in the Orphic spirit, versus modern science which is Promethean, interrogation of nature kind of thing.  Think of how Orpheus charmed people, animals, even the rocks and trees, whereas Prometheus stole fire from the gods and also stole the crafts, and gave them to man (and got punished for that, but eventually got out of punishment).  Someday, I will read the Timaeus (again) and maybe that time I could make heads and tails of it!

Timaeus is also said to be Pythagorean.  But, that is like saying, "one thing (we don't understand) is like another thing (we don't understand)".  I think understanding the _Timaeus_, or the _Parmenides_ or the Philebus_, are always in modernity, partial understandings.

One thing the Pythagoreans talked about was Kairios (or Kairos?), the notion of the right time, timeliness, seasonality.  For example, the ninja turtles, (Leonardo, Michelangelo, Raphael and Donatello) are torwards the beginning of the renaissance.  They had immense talents, but they were also in the right place and the right time, to become the household names they are today.  There are "lesser" renaissance artists who were later, and were elsewhere, where they couldn't get the full breeze in their sails so to speak.  They might of technically been artists as good as the giants, or even better, but they were planted in the shade and couldn't get as much sunshine as the others.

Is the renaissance a linear time phenomenon, or a circular time phenomenon?  Or little bit of A, little bit of 2?  
Looking at the masterworks and the culmination of hundreds of years of fine tuning technique, paints and balance artists in Europe find the gestalt they believe would please God. The artists needs his own recognition but it comes only by way of glory to God in the Highest. 

Always the artists are going back to Creation, the Great Fall and epic scenes from the Bible. Even portraits of everyday people, especially self portraits imbue a Godliness in many instances, even in Hieronymus Bosch! (Brilliant Lunatic). 

So the past is being pulled out of the text and made immortal first for God then for beauty. If the Church did not dominant the lives of wealthy people during the Renaissance, suppose oil production was an actuality- then the art would have glorified the black gold. IMHO. 
Little bit of A, little bit of 2.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 07:13
Yes, but Botticelli painted Venus on a half shell, the (Italian) Renaissance was a time of re-discovery of the Greek tradition, from Constantinople, although I think there also was a search started in the monasteries for Latin (pagan) manuscripts.  What is old becomes new again.

I think that the beautiful was done for patronage, not (necessarily) for God.  While a lot of people look at the Middle Ages and think that the Church ruled, I think that it was control of the aristocracy both inside and outside of the Church.  Holy men don't have mistresses, but ah, yes, Popes are aristocrats, and as aristocrats they do.  
Whether one's model of time is linear or cyclical, it is important to understand on a fundamental level, how another time is different, and how it is the same to our era.
For example, Calvin Coolidge's son did not wear socks when playing tennis, the shoes rubbed his feet and he got a sore, that sore became infected, and he died.  No matter how rich or powerful a family was in that era, if you got an infection, there was little they could do for you in those pre-antibiotic days.  That is one way how it was different than today.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 11:03
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Yes, but Botticelli painted Venus on a half shell, the (Italian) Renaissance was a time of re-discovery of the Greek tradition, from Constantinople, although I think there also was a search started in the monasteries for Latin (pagan) manuscripts.  What is old becomes new again.

I think that the beautiful was done for patronage, not (necessarily) for God.  While a lot of people look at the Middle Ages and think that the Church ruled, I think that it was control of the aristocracy both inside and outside of the Church.  Holy men don't have mistresses, but ah, yes, Popes are aristocrats, and as aristocrats they do.  
Whether one's model of time is linear or cyclical, it is important to understand on a fundamental level, how another time is different, and how it is the same to our era.
For example, Calvin Coolidge's son did not wear socks when playing tennis, the shoes rubbed his feet and he got a sore, that sore became infected, and he died.  No matter how rich or powerful a family was in that era, if you got an infection, there was little they could do for you in those pre-antibiotic days.  That is one way how it was different than today.
The version of marriage among the aristocracy, keeping money in the great family dynasties of Europe blatantly ignores beauty. Beauty was desired in Courtly love centuries before the houses of Hapsburg and Burgundy.  Beauty was more important to the artist but then who thinks of Venus as anything but beautiful and sexually attractive? 
Every representation of beauty in oil paint reflects the artist's mind. That he is evolved a bit beyond the subject and uses inspiration the blacksmith probably lacks, lets him take leaps into the future. He is less like his peers than most, so is the scientist, mathematician, shaman...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2019 at 12:58
Quote Deja vu. 
IF past, present and future are simultaneous then an occasional "bleed through" could take the form of deja vu "didn't this already happen?" or of ESP "I think this will or won't happen" intuitively.

Or how about my driving along a street, instinctively knowing where to turn, although I'd never been in the town before? Deja Vu? Inner hidden knowledge? I don't know.

My knowledge of a few words in many languages, deja vu? I've never really studied languages but I seem to instinctively know what some mean when I come across them.

I think we must accept that, to the best of our knowledge and that of science, time must be linear, but that doesn't explain some of the incredible technology known to our ancient ancestors, and then seemingly lost for millenia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 10:20
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote Deja vu. 
IF past, present and future are simultaneous then an occasional "bleed through" could take the form of deja vu "didn't this already happen?" or of ESP "I think this will or won't happen" intuitively.

Or how about my driving along a street, instinctively knowing where to turn, although I'd never been in the town before? Deja Vu? Inner hidden knowledge? I don't know.

My knowledge of a few words in many languages, deja vu? I've never really studied languages but I seem to instinctively know what some mean when I come across them.

I think we must accept that, to the best of our knowledge and that of science, time must be linear, but that doesn't explain some of the incredible technology known to our ancient ancestors, and then seemingly lost for millenia.
Dozens of stories on coma or injury resulting is unbelievable neurological changes. I think what you describe is intuition, memory and something like a digital download. You must have an Operating System tweaked for language and logistics, skills you needed in your work. Memory and premonition, it seems very much like a digital system that runs our "function" programs and reboots us from a saved recovery point. 
The loss of knowledge may be directly proportionate to the limits of state control. Keeping everything hidden puts everything at risk. 
 

Hannah Jenkins speaks English in the morning and German in the afternoon. It's not a routine she chose to adopt - but something her brain requires her to do. It all started with a cycling accident.

Her partner Andrew Wilde was halfway up a mountain in the US state of Montana when he received a baffling text from Hannah.

He understood only two words - "dog" and "hospital" - but knew instinctively something was wrong.

The text was in German, a language Hannah had grown up with, but Andrew didn't really understand. They only ever communicated in English.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2019 at 01:54
Quote ...but that doesn't explain some of the incredible technology known to our ancient ancestors, and then seemingly lost for millennia.
Our ancestors were just as intelligent as we are, albeit less educated and often in a society that does not support learning. However, the idea of 'ancient technology' is hugely exaggerated. Certainly they evolved methods and tools for getting them through their lives, and yes, much of that has been forgotten due to progress, but it was in the context of their time. Building a pyramid requires planning and clever use of labour. Not the advice of some speculative alien race, who seem to be strangely keen on low technology monuments if you believe the conspiracists.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2019 at 14:43
Look up electrotype, it is a process (or the result of the process) used to copy objects on the atomic level, kind of the opposite of electrolysis, but it was used in the 19th and 20th century to copy museum objects, but it is basically lost now.  There are explanations in books, but the process is labor intensive, and nobody has taken the time to work out the kinks. 
When they were restoring the Parthenon, they analyzed the chisel marks on a cylinder and came up with the design of a 'new' more efficient chisel than what we have.  We could copy their artistic coins(?), but we don't have the craftsmen that can work on that level.  but, no, no tractor beams.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2019 at 21:44
Never came across electrotyping before but then the technology has been abandoned in favour of better methods during the 20th century (it was only invented in 1838). Better chisels? Really? Chisels come in all shapes and sizes today and given superior metallurgy and processes, I seriously doubt any significant advantage to those manufactured in antiquity - I imagine the skills of the users might be hard to replicate. As for coins, I see adverts every week from some obscure mint trying to sell gold coins struck in limited quantities to celebrate something or other. These days we can even colour them chemically - our ancestors couldn't. I've yet to see an ancient coin of superior creation to modern coins, whatever materials they might be made of.
 
Praising ancient skills is one thing but we should not get carried away with urban myths of superior technology from the past (why do we associate such mysteries to the past? It's not a modern phenomenon - the Roman Empire was lauded as golden age of mankind almost as soon as it faded from view).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2019 at 04:59
After a certain point in the evolution of Apple computers, they adopted dialogue boxes with rounded edges.  This is harder than one would think it would be, because the dialogue boxes are made to fit the length and height of the messages.  But Steve Jobs thought it would look cool and that nobody besides Apple would do it, and he was/is right.  PCs use rectangular dialogue boxes.  Let's say 200 years from now, and Apple, inc. is long gone, the programming for rounded corners is forgotten, is anybody going to work to do the programming?  No, it is not a matter of efficient, cost effective design.  And IMac will probably still be a desirable creation, but now because of its iconic design both outward and inward.
Marshall McLuhan said something like, 'art is obsolete technology."  Is a modern Honda civic, a superior creation to a DeLorean with its gullwing doors, or '50s American car with its fins and chrome?  Well, yes if all your going to use the car is for basic transportation.  The safety features alone make a Honda more worthwhile.

You are probably not familiar with ancient Greek coins of the Archaic and Classical eras, artistically they are superior, not all of them, but one must realize that that with all the little podunk poleis (city-states) sitting around the Mediterranean like frogs on lily-pads on a lake.  And the fact that it was the new hip technology at the time, just in sheer quantity meant there was artistic excellence.  So no, technologically or as far as efficiency was concerned, but as far as art and aesthetics is concern, well think of the Venus de Milo, but with the arms.

The chisel thing was mentioned in a special about the renovation of the Parthenon (Nova??).  They didn't go into it in depth, but I think that it was a matter of being developed for a certain job.

As far as copies are concerned, you can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all the time. electrotypes are extremely deceptive, but if you know what to look for (the edge and the weight for coins) they are not a problem.

There are electrotypes listed on vcoins.com, I don't think much of the modern medals (Enlightenment) made by the procedure posted there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2019 at 02:09
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Is time linear? or is it cyclical?  Or is it a bit of both (and how, and why?)

Mark Twain said something like history (time?) does not repeat itself, but it rhymes.

What does it mean to question whether time is linear or cyclical in a thread devoted
to alternate history????

Are there other alternatives???

How exciting to ponder your question!  Big smile

I will argue time can not be linear because that would be a two dimensional reality and our reality is at least three dimensional.  But if I am the dot from which all geometry begins, and I look around me, the line can begin and reach out from me in all directions.  It is like a ball of radiating energy and if each of us is such a dot radiating in all directions the lines of our radiation will cross and become two dimensional and multidimensional as all our lives cross.  Wacko

Oh my goodness how terrible exciting if history were written with that perspective and it might speak even better or our reality.  Not all of use go down in history but those that do stand for thoughts and their thoughts are carried and can become more complex concepts, or changed in such away to be the opposite of what they were.  If we trace history through this origin and movement and mixing of concepts, it would not be linear.  Cool
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2019 at 15:00
I think of the linear/cyclical question as more of a metaphor.  Time is like a river, but you can only go down stream.  Or is it?  Perhaps if you are water droplet, you could evaporate at the sea, and be carried to the source of the river, but you couldn't do it as you.  Does a droplet of rain remember the ocean, or the river, or the swamp?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2019 at 15:13
Quote Does a droplet of rain remember the ocean, or the river, or the swamp?

Wow, you're getting into deep water there.LOL

So, if a tree fell in the forest yesterday, did it really fall?

And, shouldn't it be the ocean remembering the drop of rain?

As I've said before, I believe that time is a human construct, and it must be linear as otherwise how could progress, of any kind, be measured? There must be chronology, musn't there?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2019 at 21:12
Quote I will argue time can not be linear because that would be a two dimensional reality and our reality is at least three dimensional.
Interesting that you bring this up - someone was bound to - because Time is often considered a dimension of its own, something reinforced by popular culture and literature over the last hundred and fifty years in particular.
 
Time is not a dimension. It is a quality that is part of the structure of the existing universe, although some disagree exactly what comprises it. Increasingly there is evidence of a 'granular' quality to Time (sorry, I don't know the argument). According to Einstein, Time and Space are two aspects of the same thing.
 
Linear Time merely means that we experience one event after another, compliant with causality and other such scientific observations. I've already discussed my own views on Time and won't repeat them here (Feel free to read the earlier posts if you're interested). Cyclical Time is another form of Linear Time which includes a property to repeat the sequence of 'event space' (though not necessarily the same events - that's more philosophy than physics)
 
But considering philosophy - Does a droplet of rain remember the ocean, or the river, or the swamp?
 
I don't know. I seriously doubt it, because there is nothing I know of that records events or the impressions of them in mundane matter. I am reminded however of a theory from the eighties in which stone was supposed to record impressions of sound in their vicinity. Since no archeological recordings have come to light, perhaps this theory remains unproven. However, what can be said is that at quantum levels particles are not predictable. The Heisenberg uncertainty Principle states that you can never be certain of all qualities of a particle. Let's be honest. You can never be certain that you remember anything exactly. There was something else I wanted to say but.... err... Nope. Lost it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2019 at 01:24
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I think of the linear/cyclical question as more of a metaphor.  Time is like a river, but you can only go down stream.  Or is it?  Perhaps if you are water droplet, you could evaporate at the sea, and be carried to the source of the river, but you couldn't do it as you.  Does a droplet of rain remember the ocean, or the river, or the swamp?


Or may it remember the dinosaur that drank it and becoming part of the dinosaur before returning to the river?  

Great wisdom from Yellow River by I. P. Daily.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2019 at 02:04
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Time is a structure that can't be escaped in material reality but it happens in dreams. I have vivid memories of three dreams that I had in childhood, they only happen in my recollection and I am not afraid of them anymore. 

Yet I can remember with clarity and detail as if they happened when I was awake.
Those memories seem as important as a Christmas morning that happens in 1975 in material reality.

Oh, oh- time is an abstract that should not be confused with tangible reality.   It has no structure of its own.  Time is a concept created by man.  Mankind did not always have a sense of history.  Mankind in Europe did not always have a sense of progression, improving on manifested reality something better then the God manifest reality we are born into.  That progression, is an idea coming out of Greek and Roman classics that shifted the notion of who is manifesting reality, a god or man, during the Renaissance and Age of Enlightenment.    

Clock time is really an abstract concept that no one could have before there were clocks and then what time is it when you travel into the east or west?  It was not until trains that time zones were invented.  Figuring out calendar time was very problematic and Galileo and the Pope played a big role in giving us a calendar that works.  

However, a constant is the changing of the seasons and the changes of the stars above and this is cyclical.  Clock time is cyclical too, using Babylon's (Sumerian)  base 60. Base 60 can also be used for figuring angles.  But how about native American consciousness that was seasonal and had nothing to do with our measurements of the calendar or clock time?  Can you image not knowing our sense of time and having a very different consciousness?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2019 at 02:39
Caldwell,  How blooming exciting can a discussion get?

"Linear Time merely means that we experience one event after another, compliant with causality and other such scientific observations."

"The Heisenberg uncertainty Principle states that you can never be certain of all qualities of a particle. Let's be honest. You can never be certain that you remember anything exactly. There was something else I wanted to say but.... err... Nope. Lost it."

The first statement refers to how our brains work, not reality.  Big smile   Our brains are restricted much as a computer, but no where near as restricted as computers.  Our brains are aware of much more than we are conscious of.  Through our senses our brains pick up a lot of information and sort through it faster than a computer can, LOL you may have noticed our mouths can speak before our brains get control of our thoughts.  Tragically, we can also kill our own child before recognizing our child if we are carrying a gun and acting in fear of an unknown intruder.  Or we can be focused on our job and forget our baby  is the back seat of the car.  And our sense of time is totally different if we are the one sitting on the toilet or the one waiting to use it.  

Our brains can hold information without us having any awareness of that information.  A woman's attraction to a man, may have more to do her hormonal cycle than anything else.  When she is in heat, she will be more attracted to aggressive men and this can lead to affairs, because the plain Joe she is married to makes a better mate for daily living.  The mate we chose is also effected by smell, but we are not aware of smelling the person and judging if we share the same DNA of not.   

And like "The Heisenberg uncertainty Principle states that you can never be certain of all qualities of a particle".   I never know what how my right brain is going to mix ideas and reproduce them in written statement.  LOL


Edited by Athena - 07 Jul 2019 at 02:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2019 at 02:57
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
 I don't know what that statement has to do with time, but I have a knee jerk reaction to it.

Cicero, thought we could come to agreement through the process of reasoning.   The problem is we lack the skills for being logical and tend to be mentally lazy.   It is my hope, as we learn more about the world and how our brains work, we will over come the ignorance that manifests so much trouble.  


Edited by Athena - 07 Jul 2019 at 03:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2019 at 13:47
We do not see because we have eyes,
we have eyes because we see.
(Martin Heidegger)

The brain is a part of reality, not apart from reality.  
 There is some artifice involved with it too, though.

The droplet story is actually a Sufi story, the droplet
is very reluctant to leave the ocean (remembering only
the river and wanting to go back to it).  Eventually,
the droplet evaporates, and remembers at that point
that he has done this all before.  One would think
it is a reincarnation allegory, but I don't think the
sufis got into reincarnation.  The story is from an
Idries Shah collection, which admittedly doesn't narrow
it down much.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2019 at 22:11
Quote The first statement refers to how our brains work, not reality.
Correct. Earlier I outlined how I consider Time to be an illusion formed by the macro experience of quantum change around us. However, Reality is difficult to pin down, because it's always based on perception and interpretation. Since we experience the world through our senses, we have no other frame of reference. Yet fundamentally there are differences between what we accept as real and what science can describe. Light for instance. Light has no colour. The effects we attribute to colour are those of wavelengths. Colour is a trick played by our brain, painting in details of visual information in order to improve our perception of the outside world. It is now thought by some naturalists that bats 'see' with their ears, using their sonar data to add in details otherwise invisible. Some animals see magnetic field, infrared, electric fields, and so on. Their ideas of reality would vary from ours
Quote And like "The Heisenberg uncertainty Principle states that you can never be certain of all qualities of a particle".   I never know what how my right brain is going to mix ideas and reproduce them in written statement
Pen and paper are involved I understand :D
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2019 at 14:08
Originally posted by Athena Athena wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Time is a structure that can't be escaped in material reality but it happens in dreams. I have vivid memories of three dreams that I had in childhood, they only happen in my recollection and I am not afraid of them anymore. 

Yet I can remember with clarity and detail as if they happened when I was awake.
Those memories seem as important as a Christmas morning that happens in 1975 in material reality.
  
[quote]Oh, oh- time is an abstract that should not be confused with tangible reality.   It has no structure of its own.  Time is a concept created by man.  Mankind did not always have a sense of history.  Mankind in Europe did not always have a sense of progression, improving on manifested reality something better then the God manifest reality we are born into.  That progression, is an idea coming out of Greek and Roman classics that shifted the notion of who is manifesting reality, a god or man, during the Renaissance and Age of Enlightenment.
   No confusion here we are spit balling.Wink
Mankind should include 20,000 year old culture in say Lascaux caves, yes? You have pregnant animals, someone was keeping track of time. Humans left different size hand prints, a signature to reflect on or find again in the future.

What did the Greeks/Romans say about who manifests reality?

What did the genius of the Renaissance reveal about who manifests reality?


“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2019 at 07:21
Aristotle, if I am correct, believed that time was dependent on change.  For Descartes who was during the scientific enlightenment, time was like a ticking clock with God preserving us during the seconds in-between.  Of course, this depends on the invention of and spreading of the mechanical clock in the Middle Ages.  According to Boorstin (The Discoverers?) a Chinese actually invented the clock, but it didn't go anywhere, because in Chinese society, why would you want one?

I think that on some level, God manifests reality for the ancients and moderns.  There might be some philosophers who are more atheistic about it, also some that say reality was(is) always there.
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