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Time, linear, or cyclical?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 22:45
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

I've noticed over the years that scientists, releasing supposedly new information/explanations very often use terms like "probably", "suggestive of" and so on.

Time is one thing that I don't know can be proven, unless you've been here before.

Personally, I'm a sceptic.(Not septic LOL)
Well, we don't want to sound like the American democrats do wee?Wink
We can dream in the Alternative section.
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 07:59
I was disappointed that the show Madame Secretary seemed to kind of drizzle out.  Talk about alternate reality it seems like during Republican administration, television has to concoct a different political reality.  You had the successful show, West Wing, during the George W Bush administration.  Then you had Madame Secretary.

A noun is a person, place, thing or Idea.  So time, the present, past, future definitely exist, if only as an idea, or family of ideas.  Now one can ask whether time has any meaning outside of the structure of consciousness, perhaps not.  But if you look at Immanuel Kant, time is part of the structure of consciousness, and for Kant a necessary part of the structure of consciousness.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 20:02
Vanuatu wrote
Quote “The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti

Especiallly when five countries have a power of veto.

Back to Time, regardless of whether it's linear, circular or cylindrical, how do you explain deja vu?


Edited by toyomotor - 14 Jun 2019 at 20:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 01:28
How do you want to explain deja vu?

I think it is a momentary lapse in attention, that when you come back to attention, you feel like you have been there before, because you have, just a second ago you were staring out into space, [attention lapse], and now again you are staring out into space (so to speak).

But sometimes there is the feeling that I _dreamed_ this moment before, and that it was terrifying in the dream (anxiety-filled), but when I get to it, it is fine.  Like dreaming of a test, and being immensely unprepared for the test, but when you actually get to (a) moment like that, being reasonably prepared, not because of the dream, but because you are.  Public speaking could be the same thing, dreamt, and then when you get to an actual case, no big deal.  (or big deal, but no problem).

I do believe that dreams _can_be_ prophetic.  I think deja vu is an attention phenomena, not (necessarily) a time phenomena, but you (or others) can explain it as such if you want.

veto envy.


Edited by franciscosan - 15 Jun 2019 at 01:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 01:51
Time is a structure that can't be escaped in material reality but it happens in dreams. I have vivid memories of three dreams that I had in childhood, they only happen in my recollection and I am not afraid of them anymore. 

Yet I can remember with clarity and detail as if they happened when I was awake.
Those memories seem as important as a Christmas morning that happens in 1975 in material reality.
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 02:09
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu wrote
Quote “The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti

Especiallly when five countries have a power of veto.

Back to Time, regardless of whether it's linear, circular or cylindrical, how do you explain deja vu?
Right On!

Deja vu. 
IF past, present and future are simultaneous then an occasional "bleed through" could take the form of deja vu "didn't this already happen?" or of ESP "I think this will or won't happen" intuitively. 

Simultaneity is existence of God or (All That Is) without creation.  Changing states or oscillation provides a perception of linear progression. There is a theory that mostly agrees with relativity but is based on Absolute Simultaneity 

Plato in Timaeus "time and heaven [the world] came into being together that, having been created Simultaeneously [hama], if ever there was to be a dissolution to them, they may be dissolved Simultaneously [hama]. Hama being used here in the temporal sense, not in its etymological use "together."


Edited by Vanuatu - 16 Jun 2019 at 02:27
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 06:32
The French Philosopher, Pierre Hadot, says that the _Timaeus_ is work in the Orphic spirit, versus modern science which is Promethean, interrogation of nature kind of thing.  Think of how Orpheus charmed people, animals, even the rocks and trees, whereas Prometheus stole fire from the gods and also stole the crafts, and gave them to man (and got punished for that, but eventually got out of punishment).  Someday, I will read the Timaeus (again) and maybe that time I could make heads and tails of it!

Timaeus is also said to be Pythagorean.  But, that is like saying, "one thing (we don't understand) is like another thing (we don't understand)".  I think understanding the _Timaeus_, or the _Parmenides_ or the Philebus_, are always in modernity, partial understandings.

One thing the Pythagoreans talked about was Kairios (or Kairos?), the notion of the right time, timeliness, seasonality.  For example, the ninja turtles, (Leonardo, Michelangelo, Raphael and Donatello) are torwards the beginning of the renaissance.  They had immense talents, but they were also in the right place and the right time, to become the household names they are today.  There are "lesser" renaissance artists who were later, and were elsewhere, where they couldn't get the full breeze in their sails so to speak.  They might of technically been artists as good as the giants, or even better, but they were planted in the shade and couldn't get as much sunshine as the others.

Is the renaissance a linear time phenomenon, or a circular time phenomenon?  Or little bit of A, little bit of 2?  


Edited by franciscosan - 16 Jun 2019 at 07:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2019 at 04:21
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

The French Philosopher, Pierre Hadot, says that the _Timaeus_ is work in the Orphic spirit, versus modern science which is Promethean, interrogation of nature kind of thing.  Think of how Orpheus charmed people, animals, even the rocks and trees, whereas Prometheus stole fire from the gods and also stole the crafts, and gave them to man (and got punished for that, but eventually got out of punishment).  Someday, I will read the Timaeus (again) and maybe that time I could make heads and tails of it!

Timaeus is also said to be Pythagorean.  But, that is like saying, "one thing (we don't understand) is like another thing (we don't understand)".  I think understanding the _Timaeus_, or the _Parmenides_ or the Philebus_, are always in modernity, partial understandings.

One thing the Pythagoreans talked about was Kairios (or Kairos?), the notion of the right time, timeliness, seasonality.  For example, the ninja turtles, (Leonardo, Michelangelo, Raphael and Donatello) are torwards the beginning of the renaissance.  They had immense talents, but they were also in the right place and the right time, to become the household names they are today.  There are "lesser" renaissance artists who were later, and were elsewhere, where they couldn't get the full breeze in their sails so to speak.  They might of technically been artists as good as the giants, or even better, but they were planted in the shade and couldn't get as much sunshine as the others.

Is the renaissance a linear time phenomenon, or a circular time phenomenon?  Or little bit of A, little bit of 2?  
Looking at the masterworks and the culmination of hundreds of years of fine tuning technique, paints and balance artists in Europe find the gestalt they believe would please God. The artists needs his own recognition but it comes only by way of glory to God in the Highest. 

Always the artists are going back to Creation, the Great Fall and epic scenes from the Bible. Even portraits of everyday people, especially self portraits imbue a Godliness in many instances, even in Hieronymus Bosch! (Brilliant Lunatic). 

So the past is being pulled out of the text and made immortal first for God then for beauty. If the Church did not dominant the lives of wealthy people during the Renaissance, suppose oil production was an actuality- then the art would have glorified the black gold. IMHO. 
Little bit of A, little bit of 2.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 07:13
Yes, but Botticelli painted Venus on a half shell, the (Italian) Renaissance was a time of re-discovery of the Greek tradition, from Constantinople, although I think there also was a search started in the monasteries for Latin (pagan) manuscripts.  What is old becomes new again.

I think that the beautiful was done for patronage, not (necessarily) for God.  While a lot of people look at the Middle Ages and think that the Church ruled, I think that it was control of the aristocracy both inside and outside of the Church.  Holy men don't have mistresses, but ah, yes, Popes are aristocrats, and as aristocrats they do.  
Whether one's model of time is linear or cyclical, it is important to understand on a fundamental level, how another time is different, and how it is the same to our era.
For example, Calvin Coolidge's son did not wear socks when playing tennis, the shoes rubbed his feet and he got a sore, that sore became infected, and he died.  No matter how rich or powerful a family was in that era, if you got an infection, there was little they could do for you in those pre-antibiotic days.  That is one way how it was different than today.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 11:03
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Yes, but Botticelli painted Venus on a half shell, the (Italian) Renaissance was a time of re-discovery of the Greek tradition, from Constantinople, although I think there also was a search started in the monasteries for Latin (pagan) manuscripts.  What is old becomes new again.

I think that the beautiful was done for patronage, not (necessarily) for God.  While a lot of people look at the Middle Ages and think that the Church ruled, I think that it was control of the aristocracy both inside and outside of the Church.  Holy men don't have mistresses, but ah, yes, Popes are aristocrats, and as aristocrats they do.  
Whether one's model of time is linear or cyclical, it is important to understand on a fundamental level, how another time is different, and how it is the same to our era.
For example, Calvin Coolidge's son did not wear socks when playing tennis, the shoes rubbed his feet and he got a sore, that sore became infected, and he died.  No matter how rich or powerful a family was in that era, if you got an infection, there was little they could do for you in those pre-antibiotic days.  That is one way how it was different than today.
The version of marriage among the aristocracy, keeping money in the great family dynasties of Europe blatantly ignores beauty. Beauty was desired in Courtly love centuries before the houses of Hapsburg and Burgundy.  Beauty was more important to the artist but then who thinks of Venus as anything but beautiful and sexually attractive? 
Every representation of beauty in oil paint reflects the artist's mind. That he is evolved a bit beyond the subject and uses inspiration the blacksmith probably lacks, lets him take leaps into the future. He is less like his peers than most, so is the scientist, mathematician, shaman...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2019 at 12:58
Quote Deja vu. 
IF past, present and future are simultaneous then an occasional "bleed through" could take the form of deja vu "didn't this already happen?" or of ESP "I think this will or won't happen" intuitively.

Or how about my driving along a street, instinctively knowing where to turn, although I'd never been in the town before? Deja Vu? Inner hidden knowledge? I don't know.

My knowledge of a few words in many languages, deja vu? I've never really studied languages but I seem to instinctively know what some mean when I come across them.

I think we must accept that, to the best of our knowledge and that of science, time must be linear, but that doesn't explain some of the incredible technology known to our ancient ancestors, and then seemingly lost for millenia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 10:20
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote Deja vu. 
IF past, present and future are simultaneous then an occasional "bleed through" could take the form of deja vu "didn't this already happen?" or of ESP "I think this will or won't happen" intuitively.

Or how about my driving along a street, instinctively knowing where to turn, although I'd never been in the town before? Deja Vu? Inner hidden knowledge? I don't know.

My knowledge of a few words in many languages, deja vu? I've never really studied languages but I seem to instinctively know what some mean when I come across them.

I think we must accept that, to the best of our knowledge and that of science, time must be linear, but that doesn't explain some of the incredible technology known to our ancient ancestors, and then seemingly lost for millenia.
Dozens of stories on coma or injury resulting is unbelievable neurological changes. I think what you describe is intuition, memory and something like a digital download. You must have an Operating System tweaked for language and logistics, skills you needed in your work. Memory and premonition, it seems very much like a digital system that runs our "function" programs and reboots us from a saved recovery point. 
The loss of knowledge may be directly proportionate to the limits of state control. Keeping everything hidden puts everything at risk. 
 

Hannah Jenkins speaks English in the morning and German in the afternoon. It's not a routine she chose to adopt - but something her brain requires her to do. It all started with a cycling accident.

Her partner Andrew Wilde was halfway up a mountain in the US state of Montana when he received a baffling text from Hannah.

He understood only two words - "dog" and "hospital" - but knew instinctively something was wrong.

The text was in German, a language Hannah had grown up with, but Andrew didn't really understand. They only ever communicated in English.

“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2019 at 01:54
Quote ...but that doesn't explain some of the incredible technology known to our ancient ancestors, and then seemingly lost for millennia.
Our ancestors were just as intelligent as we are, albeit less educated and often in a society that does not support learning. However, the idea of 'ancient technology' is hugely exaggerated. Certainly they evolved methods and tools for getting them through their lives, and yes, much of that has been forgotten due to progress, but it was in the context of their time. Building a pyramid requires planning and clever use of labour. Not the advice of some speculative alien race, who seem to be strangely keen on low technology monuments if you believe the conspiracists.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2019 at 14:43
Look up electrotype, it is a process (or the result of the process) used to copy objects on the atomic level, kind of the opposite of electrolysis, but it was used in the 19th and 20th century to copy museum objects, but it is basically lost now.  There are explanations in books, but the process is labor intensive, and nobody has taken the time to work out the kinks. 
When they were restoring the Parthenon, they analyzed the chisel marks on a cylinder and came up with the design of a 'new' more efficient chisel than what we have.  We could copy their artistic coins(?), but we don't have the craftsmen that can work on that level.  but, no, no tractor beams.
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