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Time, linear, or cyclical?

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    Posted: 20 May 2019 at 07:28
two different topics,

school shooting, the kid at the STEM school that (with others) fought to disarm the attacker, got shot and died.  His death is tragic, but heroic.

other topic, being and becoming, Heraclitus as the philosopher of becoming.  I think that if one was more familiar with Heraclitus, one might see the appropriateness of his death, but no, it is not tragic or heroic.
Heraclitus said that bodies should be thrown out sooner than dung. and other sayings.

light-cone, I forget C, speed of light.  260,000 m/s??  Only things within the cone can have an effect
. . . . . . . . . .            on later events in the cone, and thus ultimately the "discrete" event at the center
 . . . . . . . . .             of the cone, in turn that event can only effect later events, dependent on whether
  . . . . . . . .              its effects have traveled far enough, as determined by time and the speed of light.
   . . . . . . .
    . . . . . .
     . . . . .
      . . . .
       . . .
        . .     T-1 one time unit before the event, forming a causal radius of one unit, 
                            everything within the causal radius of one light-unit has an effect on time of event.
         .                 T+/-0 Time of the event.
        : :
       : : :
      : : : : 
     : : : : :     T+4, 4 time units after the event

So if Alpha Centauri exploded, we would not see it immediately but would see it roughly 4.5 years later, the event for us would not happen until we saw it.


Edited by franciscosan - 20 May 2019 at 07:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2019 at 01:51
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

  Heraclitus is the philosopher of becoming.

Everybody dies, but not everybody dies heroically>  I think he did well, and we should rejoice in his life, while at the same time noting his death.
Heraclitus death, while gross doesn't on it's face seem heroic. I'm not saying it wasn't heroic but why do you say so?
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2019 at 10:59
No I don't think the bad are more important than the happy.  I think the happy helps get us through the bad, and the bad helps us appreciate the happy.

The traditional distinction is past tense (was), present tense (being, is), and future tense (will be), or future tense possible (may be, can be).  becoming is sort of between present tense (being) and future tense will be.  Becoming is that which is coming to be,  So at least from a traditional philosophy metaphysics, is is being, becoming is a little different.  Heraclitus is the philosopher of becoming.

Everybody dies, but not everybody dies heroically>  I think he did well, and we should rejoice in his life, while at the same time noting his death.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2019 at 11:25
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

We have some say over what is, and what will be (present and future) or so it seems, the problem with the past is that it is not "is" and therefore we cannot "do" anything about it, except obsess about it (the revenge of the 'it was') or accept it.  But, even accepting part of it is problematic, you gotta take the whole thing, the good and the bad.
Do you think the "bad" parts are more valuable to human greatness than the "happy" parts?

The future appears to materialize overnight but events require momentum. Everything that occurs is rehashed and analyzed to determine "what" precipitated and "when" an event began to unfold.
"IS" could  be viewed as "Becoming." Anyway the theme was used in the book/film Red Dragon to describe the killer's becoming the dragon in Blake's painting "Woman clothed by the Sun." "The Mental Traveler" the poem by Blake, is similar to M-brane theory and you described a repeating cycle where even details and identities are the same. It's a reenactment of the "great fall" with new scenery, except that one changes form in death and is the darkness in one existence and the light in the next.


Quote A lot of these kids that shoot up schools don't have any particular traumatic experience, but they definitely have a sense of revenge (against) the 'it was'.  They are bored and nihilistic.  Perhaps, they
would actually have less rage if there was 'something' bad that had happened to them.  Or so it seems to me.
Very sad again school shooting, this time a young man died to save others. You are right about the mass shooters on any scale. A Swami would say that the shooters do not love and strong energy builds up in them. Bitter resentment poisons the mind until a person is "adrift" from emotional connections. Drugs keep people from feeling emotional pain, including the pain that is meant to keep you from making the same mistakes, loss of empathy entirely.


Edited by Vanuatu - 18 May 2019 at 01:34
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2019 at 11:58
We have some say over what is, and what will be (present and future) or so it seems, the problem with the past is that it is not "is" and therefore we cannot "do" anything about it, except obsess about it (the revenge of the 'it was') or accept it.  But, even accepting part of it is problematic, you gotta take the whole thing, the good and the bad.

A lot of these kids that shoot up schools don't have any particular traumatic experience, but they definitely have a sense of revenge (against) the 'it was'.  They are bored and nihilistic.  Perhaps, they
would actually have less rage if there was 'something' bad that had happened to them.  Or so it seems to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2019 at 00:28
"I think that you can think of it as a traumatic experience in the past which cannot be let go.  What Nietzsche calls the "revenge of the 'it was'."

Are you talking about the meaning of life being related to what we sense as time passing??
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2019 at 14:15
Nietzsche and the eternal recurrence of the same.

A thought-experiment

Assume that time in cyclical and will repeat itself, now picture yourself repeating your life over and over, endlessly, the same mistakes, the same embarrassments, everything.

So how do you escape this endless repetition?  You can't by squirming out of it, you cannot change anything in the past or future, repeating endlessly.  The only way you can get "out" of it, is by accepting it, accepting everything, your past/future/everything.  When you do that, accepting everything, a new possibility arises.

Now if you want to assume a physics of an oscillating universe, or an expanding one that defuses and starts again, you can, but I don't think it is necessary for the thought experiment.  I think that you can think of it as a traumatic experience in the past which cannot be let go.  What Nietzsche calls the "revenge of the 'it was'."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2019 at 10:59
The Infinity sign doesn't go on forever, it repeats itself and the zero or world egg emphasizes the purpose in nature for the cycles. We've got cycles everywhere we look in nature and human/animal behavior. 
The quantum physics are kind of analogous to the "images" of a black hole that were in the news last week.
We were looking at a simulation of what the black hole would look like, IF we could visually interpret what was recorded. As for clarification, well that's going to be tricky. :)
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2019 at 10:18
night follows day, follows night, circular after a fashion.  Nietzsche's eternal recurrence of the same, which I won't expound on right now.  It is a thought experiment.

Saying that space/time is the way Einstein or Heisenberg characterized it, does not necessarily clarify much.  I am not even sure that Einstein and Heisenberg agreed, at least not on quantum physics.

When the elephant and the tiger fight, the grass gets trampled.  Just an idle thought.

A police officer pulled over Werner Heisenberg, he asked him, "do you know how fast you were going?"  Heisenberg said, "no, but I know where I am."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2019 at 00:33
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Is time linear? or is it cyclical?  Or is it a bit of both (and how, and why?)

Mark Twain said something like history (time?) does not repeat itself, but it rhymes.

What does it mean to question whether time is linear or cyclical in a thread devoted
to alternate history????

Are there other alternatives???

We perceive and experience time as linear, is there any choice? 

We can conceive of existence as being a bit cagey about appearances. Mark Twain :) It does rhyme, to Caldrail's point the next iteration, or in the next 24 hours we will have undergone change as a result of changing states. Oscillation is the mechanism for changing states. The vibration of a string is a perfect measure of oscillation, just to and fro, minimum to maximum and repeated, but not forever carbon based life form.

The alternative might be something like the Borg. Intelligence that could create from a non physical source. Thoughts appear to come from a non physical source, brain or mind? I think a brain can exist without mind.
The unbounded intelligence of all that is, creates systems that develop their own intelligence. Unbounded intelligence would create a manifestation specialized for a purpose, a stem cell is a blank canvas until patterns guide its form and function. 

Humans build a raft. This can serve a purpose and humans can stop using their own energy. Every version of "raft" would be an improvement or an evolutionary dead end.
Looking at the trajectory of "raft" in human evolution is also looking back in time. 
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2019 at 17:58
Yes, and tomorrow we'll still have NOW!
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2019 at 21:51
Time is not seperable from Space, qv Einstein. Although our perception is linear albeit at an increasing rate as you get older, it appears to me an illusion formed by change. because the universe exists in a quantum state in one instant, and changes a quantum state in the next iteration, there is no storage of data concerning quantum states, qv Heisenberg.
 
So time travel is impossible, because there is no past or future to travel to. All we have is now.


Edited by caldrail - 01 May 2019 at 21:52
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 2019 at 14:24
Is time linear? or is it cyclical?  Or is it a bit of both (and how, and why?)

Mark Twain said something like history (time?) does not repeat itself, but it rhymes.

What does it mean to question whether time is linear or cyclical in a thread devoted
to alternate history????

Are there other alternatives???
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