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The Top 100 Generals of History

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pabbicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2009 at 12:25
Friedrich II "Der Grosse" von  Preussen, I propose he be placed at #1, or at least above Napoleon, who himself considered Friedrich to have been a greater military mind than he was.

a.  He personally led his armies in nearly every battle of the war, having six horses shot from under him on separate occasions due to his tendency to lead every charge from the front in the 18th century, something that greatly inspired his men.

b. Being born to a highly militarist, disciplinarian father, he was instilled from a young age with militarist ideals, even his later banishment by his by his father could not shake this. His goal from the onset of his reign was for many reasons, to improve Prussia's languishing economy, to gain it's hostorical territories, and also to gain respect on the world political stage.

c. The military reforms he and, to a lesser extent, his father carried out had turned the Prussian military into,  without a doubt, the single most disciplined force on the planet. He was personally held to the highest standard that he also held his military to, and was quoted  on his own personal discipline and sense of duty to his Kingdom as saying "I am up and about when I am ill, and in the most appalling weather. I am on horseback when other men would be flat out on their beds, complaining. We are made for action, and activity is the sovereign remedy for all physical ills." In this respect he could be seen as a man ready to brave any misfortune in order to further and continue his goals.


d.  While the equipment of the Prussian Army in the 1740's was equipped, for the most part, with the standard fare of the day, Friedrich had, against the conventions of the time, switched his cannons from the typical twelve pound to the much lighter and more maneuverable "three pound" guns, which he used with great success thanks to their great versatility. He also had the Prussian cavalries retrained with light horses and focused far more on maneuverability and speed, and the Prussian doctrine for the entire lifetime of the kingdom was expanded and refined under his rule. He continued in the vein of his predecessors in advocating quick and decisive campaigns, focused on an extremely aggressive staff on the command level and determination, his tactical and strategic skill was the main weapon of the army, despite is improvements in this area being not as varied as other great commanders.

e.  Friedrich was a master of planning supply routes, and his incredible skill in executing maneuvers with his highly disciplined troops, resulting in their continued success. He also laid the foundation of his army reforms on reforms to procurement, most importantly on the ability of the prussian state to feed it's armies adequately.
Tactical mastery—gaining success on the battlefield

a. Frederick was the greatest master of maneuver on the battlefield, employing oblique order with his extremely disciplined troops, the most famous employment of his incredible tactical ability and powerfully disciplined troops, as well as highly mobile artillery,  is the Battle of Leuthen, where a force of 35,000 Prussian Troops, under personal command of Friedrich himself, defeated a force of 56,000 Austrians, taking 6,000 casualties and inflicting 12,000 dead upon the enemy, and over 12,300 captured prisoners, as well as 51 captured flags and over 100 captured cannons. This battle is a picture perfect example of his capacity for complicated maneuvers, which led to many crushing victories during the Silesian Wars and the Seven Years' War. The battle of Rossbach as well showed his capability to set and execute traps, resulting in the defeat of a force twice as large as his own, taking only 550(!!!) losses, of which less than 200 died(!!!) in the process, killing 5,000 french and austrian troops and taking a further 5,000 prisoner.

The Seven Years' War, in itself, was a masterwork of strategic brilliance on the part of the Prussians who, through the battles of Leuthen and Rossbach, routed both the main French and Austrian armies in two separate areas at different times, and temporarily reversed the entire war, in what Napoleon called a "Masterpiece in Maneuver and Resolution."


b.  Friedrich's capability to anticipate where his enemies would attack allowed him to move the majority of his forces to meet them in succession, which allowed for his rather constant stream of victories to continue for quite some time. In particular, during the Seven Years' War, where he had to operate on the European Continent with no allied support against every world power with the exception of the British. While things certainly weren't looking rosy for Prussia until the Miracle of the House of Brandenburg, one cannot simply use that truly miraculous event as the only reason for Prussia's successes on the field, particularly against Austrian and French invasions.

c. Friedrich's timing was always as precise as possible, and in the battle of Rossbach, especially, he required impeccable timing and made a very skillful maneuver to reach them in the first place, marching 170 miles in 13 days and constantly moving to attempt to outmaneuver the Franco-Imperial army, which was in itself attempting to outmaneuver them. Through his skill and patience he exploited every false step and finally managed to bring them to action, resulting in their near total annihilation at a negligible cost in Prussian life.

d. Overall, he made no overt attempts at subterfuge or counter-intelligence, as few people did in those days, but on the battlefield he made use of every possible advantage, including most notable at the battle of Leuthen, the use of the gunsmoke created by austrian shots to screen his army as they maneuvered to the austrian flank, with known results.

e. Upon ascending to the throne, before his declaration of war on the austrians, he immediately set out to reorganize the army, including the disbandment of his father's expensive "Potsdam Giants" regiment to free up enough funding to form seven new regiments, comprising of a total of 10,000 troops. He is noted for his logistics capability, so much that he planned a supply route that actually brought his supplies near a hundred miles ahead of his troops to prepare for the Battle of Rossbach, and after the seven years' war, his Prussian Army was so well organized and regionalized that it prompted minister Friedrich von Schrotter to say, in a famous quote, "Where some states have an army, the Prussian Army has a state!" In reference to it's size in relation to population, it's public support, and the overall integral place in society that it now held, a place which would remain integral to the last days of the German Empire, a hundred and fifty years later!


f. Friedrich is also known for being able to utilize any territory for fighting, and in general was usually forced into choosing whichever ground he could catch his enemies in, though during the first Silesian War, his forces were trapped  in Austrian Territory by the Austrian Army, resulting in the successful battle of Mollwitz. A notable event in which he wisely chose a field of battle would be at Hohenfriedeburg, where he waited as the Austro-Saxon army marched. As he knew they would have to cross Riesengebirge("Giant Mountains,") in order to enter Silesia. Due to this knowlege and the intelligence acquired by von Zieten's Hussars' shadowing of the army, he picked the time and place near Hohenfriedeberg, and decisively crushed the Austrian army, resulting in the victory of the entire war for the Prussians. Another interesting note is he often chose times and places where the wind was on his side, pushing the thick black gunsmoke into the eyes of his enemies and allowing for even greater victories than normally possible.

g. His troops, and his entire population, adored Friedrich and his reformed military system, resulting in a massive influx of recruits during his reign, and allowing him to drill his men to perfection the likes of which no other army has ever seen, as well as allowing him total command of any aspect he wished, with little resistance from his officers, though he generally allowed a full autonomy of the officers under his command.

h. The abovementioned spying of his hussar divisions is a good example of his capabilities in gaining intelligence on enemy forces, allowing him a great victory at Hohenfriedeberg in the Second Silesian War.

i. Friedrich was an incredibly intelligent man, dubbed as a Philosopher, Mathematician, Poet, Musician, Administrator, cunning Diplomat, and universally feared and respected General on the field. With this in mind, it is not surprising that he knew of every resource and every option he had available. A famous quote of his tells of his disposition regarding this aspect of command, “Being goal directed is not enough to conquer your enemy. To achieve your goal you need to know and be able to utilize all the resources available to you. This includes the knowledge of all those available to you as well as using the physical resources and those who control them.” By this he means that having goals and working to achieve them is meaningless if you cannot utilize every possible option and advantage at your disposal to secure them. Combined with his stunning ability to evaluate battlefield conditions properly and give new orders depending on the situations, added to his strategic capabilities as shown in his stunning victories during the Seven Years' War, shows him as a master of utilizing any means at his disposal to achieve an honorable victory on the field.

j. If his near-immediate declaration of war on the much larger and generally assumed more powerful Austrian Empire,  to take among Austria's richest provinces, and his stunning success over the course of four separate wars, does not tell of his emboldening audacity and his capability to back up this audacity with actions, then I am not sure what possibly could.

k. The noble families of Europe were all very interconnected, and of the Austrians, Friedrich knew quite a bit, especially of their more prominent Generals, who he would face time and time again and begin to learn the habits of. He also learned of Austrian military organization, and modified his tactics to exploit their weaknesses where possible, especially in his cavalry reforms between the first and second Silesian Wars, which allowed them to defeat Austrian cavalry of equal and greater strength again and again during the following wars.

2.5.(Less important) Siege mastery—gaining success in sieges

During his reign, and indeed during most of their history, Prussia was rightly seen as quite inept in the realm of sieges, due to their extreme offensive bent. The doctrine of Prussia and of Friedrich called for quick and decisive campaigns to defeat the enemy armies before a war of attrition could set in, in order to gain lands in peace.

He himself had no real experience in siege, and the most powerful victory in a siege for Prussia during this period came from his friend and trusted military advisor, Prince Leopold I von Anhalt-Dessau, known to his troops as "The old Dessauer," a man who had also served Friedrich's father in creating the world's greatest and most disciplined force, the Prussian Army, decades before.

Strategic mastery—gaining success in campaign through maneuver or battle

a. Logistics

b. The events leading up the the Battle of Rossbach themselves are a testament to his capability in large scale maneuvers, marching over 130 miles in 13 days with his force of 25,000 men and outmaneuvering the Franco-Imperial army, forcing them to the field and to a crushing defeat. After this, he made an even more stunning move, marching from Rossbach to Lethau, after hopelessly crushing the combined french and austrian forces, to defeat the Austrians in Silesia.

c.The maneuvers leading up to the battle of Rossbach were very important, as they showed he could not only outmarch his enemies, he could watch their movements and take advantage of missteps and face them at their most vulnerable, as with Hohenfriedeberg as well.

d. Throughout the collectively dubbed War of the Austrian Succession, Prussia recieved little to know military support in europe from it's allies Great Britain and several northern German States did little to change the course of the seven years' war, eventually submitting to peace and leaving the Prussian western front wide open to enemy assault. Still, his cooperation with the Bavarians against Austria 

e. The Battle of Rossbach was the greatest example of Friedrich's ability to force his opponents to field at their worst moments, allowing him to panic an already wavering Franco-Austrian army, resulting in it's overwhelming success.

f. The most obvious answer would be his ability to nearly double his nation's population and territory from the battles in the first Silesian War and to retain it in the successive wars over the territory. Through his skillfull diplomacy and capability in warfare, he laid the foundation for Prussia's complete domination of all of Germany later in the 19th century.

g. His only defeat of the Seven Years' War, at Kolin, resulted in enormous losses, but with a successful retreat into Prussia Proper, he was able to regroup and inflict his famous victory at Rossbach, and then follow that up with the even more famous battle of Leuthen, allowing him to more than make up for his folly in Bohemia.

h. In general, Prussia neglected to siege whenever an enemy army was close enough to be challenged. For this reason, the majority of their few sieges would result in a success due to a lack of enemy forces to break them. Friedrich's capability in sieges was limited, and he usually only sieged the very key points, such as Prague or Vienna, the places that could win wars, while allowing his generals to commit to smaller scale sieges when necessary, the field in which they were generally more skilled and experienced than he.

i. The ability of Friedrich to maneuver the vast majority of his force throughout his nation to meet enemies with similar numbers and inflict key defeats on them was a testament to his skill in organizing his forces and supplies. Using his ability in this field, he was able to keep Prussia as safe as possible during the Seven Years' War, at points in which he was facing the armies of Sweden, France, Austria and Russia simultaneously.

j. As stated before, with his powerful military and his own capability in leading this military, he undertook many audacious diplomatic moves that he otherwise would not be successful in. Most importantly, the First Partition of Poland, in which he recieved west prussia and was able to coordinate with Austria and Russia. The taking of Silesia is, perhaps, his single most audacious and risky choice. Had he been defeated, Prussia would have been severely weakened and unable to form the backbone of the German Empire, changing the political landscape of the world incredibly radically in the future.

k. Friedrich was always thinking three steps ahead in war. He was a man who's decision making in war fell under his general idea, explained in the following quote; “Always presume that the enemy has dangerous designs and always be forehanded with the remedy. But do not let these calculations make you timid.” In that respect, he would always look at the position and strength of the enemy, and formulate in his mind the worst possible scenarios, and then come up with a way to persevere through them without losing his offensive advantage.

l. Defense—fortifications 

Friedrich never truly cared for fortifications, as the Prussian maxim of war was the Bewegungskrieg, or "War of Movement," in which the Prussian army, due to the Prussian State's lesser resources than most of it's neighbors, focused on short and decisive campaigns to break their enemy's military might and settle for a favorable peace.

Grand strategic mastery—gaining victory/the ends desired through the military campaigns (political victory/conquest)

a. In his brilliance, he managed to negotiate an alliance with Great Britain, the world's greatest power which was still on the rise in these times, and of course he also  gained the support of every nation of Northern Germany. With Austria and Russia, he negotiated the first Partition of Poland, connecting his disparate territory through West Prussia. On top of this, his tenacity and skill on the field allowed him to turn Prussia from an unknown backwater into a recognized Great Power, achieving the same reverence in political decisions as Great Britain, France, Austria and Russia. This reverence would later form the backbone of the Empire of Germany, in it's time possibly the most powerful of the world's individual nations.

b. In his time, modern intelligence gathering was in it's infancy, though he used cavalrymen to spy on certain enemy movements and used this intelligence to great strategic effect, most notably at the battle of Hohenfriedberg.

c. Upon his ascention to the Prussian throne, Maria Theresa had just inherited the throne of Bohemia, and the king knew that if he waited it would be too heavily defended to break into and secure. Using as an excuse an obscure treaty from 1538, he invaded Silesia, and in his resulting success secured his position and declared himself "King of Prussia." This move is seen as audacious because his grandfather, Friedrich I of Brandenburg-Prussia, had himself made the audacious move of declaring himself "King in Prussia," and at the time Prussia was not legally recognized as a Kingdom, but Friedrich II's military prowess and political audacity allowed him the confidence to declare himself the King of the Kingdom of Prussia, and his show of force in the Seven Years' War ensured that nobody soon forgot it.

d.  There is no real evidence of his using the rivalries between nations to his advantage, though I do have a theory that he saw the sparking hostilities between Great Britain and France over Colonial Rivalries as the reason to forge an alliance with them, as the diplomatic revolution of 1756 had secured Austria an alliance with France, Russia and Sweden, and an Anglo-Prussian alliance could theoretically take France out of the picture.

e. His victories at Rossbach and Leuthen nearly completely removed France and Austria from the Seven Years' War, saving Prussia from annihilation until the Miracle of the House of Brandenburg ended the war by destroying the alliance against Prussia. His decisive victories in both the Silesian Wars both gained and retained the province in the face of a larger Austria, contributing to the high esteem with which Prussia was later held.

f. Friedrich had a goal for every campaign. He was both a master in offensive and defensive warfare, and in the first and second silesian wars his goals were simple; to gain and to keep the province of Silesia. This he succeeded in at every possible juncture, and in the seven years' war, his goal was simply to keep the Franco-Austro-Russo-Swedish alliance from decisively crippling Prussia. He managed the war with incredible, wide-ranging maneuvers on a grand scale and decisively defeated Austria and France, though the battles against Russia and Sweden were met with mixed results.

g. The results of the First Silesian war doubled Prussia's population, and greatly enhanced it's economy, combined with his policy of crushing tariffs and minimal internal trade restrictions, Silesia supplied his entire industry with the raw materials required to keep them moving. The results of his victories in the second and third silesian wars(seven years' war is also referred to as the "Third Silesian War" much as it is referred to in the americas as the "French and Indian War,") resulted in a status quo, involving Prussia retaining this land and continuing to grow and prosper.

h. Friedrich's tolerance of differing cultures, and even religions, was a very rare trait, and his good treatment of the people he conquered earned him their respect and admiration, he had no problems with dissent during his reign.

 

All of these must be considered in relation to:
The relative strength of each side in each of these 4 facets
The skill of opponents
The economy with which victory in each of these 4 facets was one (in money, destruction of property, and manpower).
Where the general was limited by influences out of his control (for instance, many generals had no opportunity to exhibit facet #4, grand strategy).
Where generals were stabbed in the back/not supported by their own nations—see Barca, Hannibal.
Whether the methods in which victories were gained were innovative or common practice (a small influence, but perhaps should be considered).
The time scale of victories


If I made an error, please let me know. This is just my position.



Edited by Pabbicus - 22 Oct 2009 at 12:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2009 at 14:23
Whoa, "Anthony" you had but simple permission to bury "Caesar" and not us under that mountain of Prussian propaganda! Whether you borrowed some of it from About.com's "military history" section is irrelevant, but keep in mind that Adolf Hitler kept Freddy's picture in his office and that was no coincidence. In essence, all was not guns 'n' roses for the Prussians in The Seven Years War, need I utter Gross-Jagersdorf (1757), Domstadt (1758), Landeshut (1760), Kolsberg (1761) as well as others including the Prussian disaster at Kunersdorf (1759) that led to the Autro-Russian occupation of Berlin. Many have concluded that the only thing that saved Freddy's ass was the death of the Tsarina Yelizabeta Petrovna in 1761.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Knives Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2009 at 14:58
Thats why it is called the miracle of Brandenburg, but you can't neglect Frederick the Great's proficiency in the field. His knowledge of supply lines was second to none. Napolean himself said when visiting Frederick's grave "Gentlemen, if this man were still alive I would not be here". 

Does Hitler having a picture of one of the most distinguished and respected figure of German history in his office suddenly make this man born centuries before and known for his religious tolerance bad? 


Edited by Knives - 22 Oct 2009 at 15:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pabbicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2009 at 15:16
I find it quite telling as far as your opposition that only one of the defeats you mentioned was under the command of Friedrich himself. This is, after all, about the commander, not the nation he is fighting for. While it is true the russian front was defeat after defeat, it is also true that the majority of that part of the war was carried out by armies not under Friedrich's own personal command. Good job in your use of diminutives for any great man you disapprove of, though!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 2009 at 19:45
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

keep in mind that Adolf Hitler kept Freddy's picture in his office and that was no coincidence.
 
This is an example of failed logic, no offense meant.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caminus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 2010 at 14:37
Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

keep in mind that Adolf Hitler kept Freddy's picture in his office and that was no coincidence.
 
This is an example of failed logic, no offense meant.


Failed logic is a compliment. I'd say absence of logic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 2010 at 23:22
Obviously, a good sense of the ironic is a lost art among today's generation. Did you know that the portrait of Frederick was also dragged down into the "bunker" for the final days? Musings from the survivors of that experience recount that Hitler fixated upon the portrait and the travails of the Prussian king during the 1750s and actually hoped for "salvation" through the fortuitous demise of Allied cohesion.
 
Why anyone would consider Frederick "great" rather than but another example of a petty princeling with large ambitions taking advantage of the greater rivalries around his mouse-hole is interesting. The lauds as well as the title is little more than the remnant of Romanticism in historical analysis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gruvawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2010 at 17:12
1. i think stonewall jackson and robert e. lee should at least be reversed. the foot-cavalry, shenandoah valley, fredricksburg, chancellorsville...the only mark against stonewall was sleep discipline, and as for lee, well, "nice job in pennsylvania bobby Pinch".

2. yue fei should be higher. if there's any truth to the legend, he instituted possibly the first mandatory training in a specific hand to hand fighting method for the whole army (xing yi chuan), and invented the hooked sword to take out the horses pulling armoured wagons.

3. wasn't subotai just carrying on the same tactics and strategy as genghis? they war counceled together so who knows whose ideas were whose. they could almost be counted together.
don't believe everything you think. : )
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2010 at 05:54
The general that "mobilizes" best is usually heads above the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2010 at 06:52
Originally posted by gruvawn gruvawn wrote:

1. i think stonewall jackson and robert e. lee should at least be reversed. the foot-cavalry, shenandoah valley, fredricksburg, chancellorsville...the only mark against stonewall was sleep discipline, and as for lee, well, "nice job in pennsylvania bobby Pinch".

 
About Civil war generals, I have yet to find a single convincing civil war general except Sherman and Lee. I mean everyone on both sides just sucked big time. The north failed to distroy the South several times in 61 and 62. The 63 invasion of the South into the north had a huge potential that was wasted in Gettysburg. Then the North failed to follow on its victory there which extended the war even further.
 
Sherman understood war better than anyone except Lee. He knew that without its economy the South will collapse and his march to the sea achieved both the distruction of the Southern hinterland and cut the South in half. Lee defended the South against all the odds and increased the life of the confederacy by at least 3 years.
 
I need to read more about Grant and Jackson but I think that both don't reach the top 100 generals.
 
As for other candidates, I have a suggestion here, Nikolai Yudenich:
 
This man is probably the finest WWI Russian general, his conduct of the Caucassian campaign despite the shortages, the terrain and the tenacoty of the enemy was excellent. I don't know about his conduct in the civil war but in WWI he was one of the few truely great generals.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2010 at 07:40
Poor Winfield Scott, it was not only his master strategy plan early in 1861 that actually won the war, but also his conversion of Washington DC as a pivotal redoubt that actually frustrated any Southern strategy Northward.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2010 at 09:54
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Poor Winfield Scott, it was not only his master strategy plan early in 1861 that actually won the war, but also his conversion of Washington DC as a pivotal redoubt that actually frustrated any Southern strategy Northward.


Which is why he is 53rd.  That and his masterful invasion of Mexico.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote warwolf1969 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 2010 at 01:37
Rommel should higher, for the simple fact that is was one of the best tactical commanders of WW2.  He should at least be in the top 100.  But I will not argue higher than about 80. 
 
Frederick the Great should be higher.  Again he was the best tactical commander of his age.  His tactical skill was recognised, and copied, by Napoleon.  He managed to hold off three of the biggest powers in the world at that time, for seven years. Yes he was saved by the Miracle of Brandenburg, but that only came as a result of his country running out of troops.  The early campaigns were tactically, and stratagically brilliant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2010 at 00:29
Originally posted by warwolf1969 warwolf1969 wrote:

Rommel should higher, for the simple fact that is was one of the best tactical commanders of WW2.  He should at least be in the top 100.  But I will not argue higher than about 80. 
 
Frederick the Great should be higher.  Again he was the best tactical commander of his age.  His tactical skill was recognised, and copied, by Napoleon.  He managed to hold off three of the biggest powers in the world at that time, for seven years. Yes he was saved by the Miracle of Brandenburg, but that only came as a result of his country running out of troops.  The early campaigns were tactically, and stratagically brilliant.


Rommel seems to be the most-debated general on this list.  He commanded in a minor theater, was hamstrung logistically, and managed to do quite well.  But is that enough to make this list?  One very good campaign?  That's rather a small sample.

Frederick, I think, is overrated as a tactician.  He perpetually took tremendous losses in battles, which is WHY his country was running out of troops.  Couldn't he have held off the foes without tremendous losses?  It's not like he was facing tremendous generals for the opponents.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote warwolf1969 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2010 at 02:57
As already stated a lot of the Prussian losses were from commands not under Fredericks control.  The number of commands that were effectively destroyed during the seven years war is quiet high.  It was unfortunate that Prussia had only a few good generals.  Most of whom were with Frederick.  Yes he had a few large defeats, yet he was always still able to manouver his force out of the situation.  Often in doing so he also turned the tables on his opponants. 
 
And if Rommel is to be hampered by only fighting in a short campaign then so should Alexander.  He only fought against the Persians and a few Indian princedoms.  Yet he is accepted as one of the best commanders in history.  You can not say that because a commander fought in only a few battles that his skill is suspect.  Rommel showed himself to be one of the best tactical commanders in WW2.  I would say second only to Mannstien on that front.  Which means that he should be at least in the top 100.  But as I said, his lack of statagic knowledge has to keep him in the lower end, about 80-85.   


Edited by warwolf1969 - 02 Aug 2010 at 02:57
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Al Jassas View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2010 at 05:04
Hello to you all
 
I tend to agree with respect to Rommel. His management of the North Africa campaign was brilliant but was not enough to make him higher on the list. Good tactician yes but a fine strategist? I don't think so 
 
What about Yudenich, did you check him out?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shingen The Ruler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2011 at 07:15
Kudos on including Takeda Shingen. He's usually overlooked whenever lists like this are thrown together.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2012 at 23:03
May I ask why Alexander III of Macedon was number 2 on the list?
What exactly is his greatest tactical or strategic achievement, that actually deserves the great?
Temujin, obviously deserves the title Universal Ruler, but Alexander?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2012 at 18:28
Ok, I can agree on Cao Cao's and Aisin  Gioro Nurhaci's positions, but Sun Tzu that low??? I guess some of his techniques were a little controversial.LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 00:43
So ridiculous?
Cao Cao knows of ambushes, he knows of feints, he knows how to use decoy and deception, he knows how to maneuver, he knows how to interact physically (such as leaving a pile of gold behind his fleeing soldiers, hoping some of the enemy will stop and pick them up) etc All this, every single general of the Three Kingdom knows, and so does Sun Tzu, all this, Alexander nor Hannibal, Napoleon Bonaparte nor Frederik, Clausewitz nor Caesar, they know nothing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 05:55
Originally posted by AlphaS520 AlphaS520 wrote:

So ridiculous?
Cao Cao knows of ambushes, he knows of feints, he knows how to use decoy and deception, he knows how to maneuver, he knows how to interact physically (such as leaving a pile of gold behind his fleeing soldiers, hoping some of the enemy will stop and pick them up) etc All this, every single general of the Three Kingdom knows, and so does Sun Tzu, all this, Alexander nor Hannibal, Napoleon Bonaparte nor Frederik, Clausewitz nor Caesar, they know nothing.
The only problem with Sun Tzu was that he beheaded the 2 favorite queens for not following orders, but that was more of a benefit because he got the soldiers' (consorts) attention while they laughed the first 2 orders.
 
My Problem with Cao Cao is that although he was rid of the other Warlords, except for the Sun clan of Wu, when he attacked the alliance of Liu Bei (who was already defeated), Lu Su, Zhou Yu, Zhuge Liang, and Sun Quan, he never won a single battle. He was pushed away towards Jing Province.
 
But I understand where Aisin Gioro Nurhaci's position because he was more of a leader of the manch people, and he started the Qing Empire.
 
My question is, why is Kangxi even on the list? He was no general, he was more of a Scholar and the second of the Da Qing. Why isn't Qianlong on the list? He captured Burma, Anam, and Siam, so they would pay tribute for them not to be conquered.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2012 at 05:59
The bigger question is, why on earth is Alexander on the list (seriously his tactical skills is like a child compared to all others), let alone second place.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote banna32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2013 at 09:49
what a about paton
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1 Alexander the Great

2 sun tzu

3 Fredrick the great

4 Otto Bismarck

5 Julius Caesar

6 cyrus the grate

7 Hannibal Barca

8 Joan of Arc

9 Genghis Khan

10 Napoleon Bonaparte

11 Scipio Africanus

12 Charlemagne

13 Joshua

14 Peter the Great

15Manfred von Richthofen

16 Erwin Rommel

17 Mohammed

18 Heihachiro Togo

19 David

20Patrick Cleburne

21 George S. Patton

22 Spartacus

23 Hermann Goering

24 Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson

25 Leonidas I

26 Robert E. Lee

27 Winston Churchill

28 John Joseph Pershing

29 Winfield Scott

30 Nathan Bedford Forrest

31 Themistocles

32 Mao Zedong

33 Georgy Zhukov

34J.E.B. Stuart

35 Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington

36 Edward III

37 Oliver Cromwell

38 Babur

39Heinrich Himmler

40 Sir Francis Drake

41 John Churchill, Duke of Marlborough

42Philip Sheridan

43 William Wallace 

44George Henry Thomas

45Ahuitzotl

46 Jebe

47 William Pitt the elder

48 King Alfred the Great

49 Nizam-ul-Mulk

50 George Washington

51 William the Conqueror

52 Richard I

53 Omar Nelson Bradley

54 Horatio Nelson

55 Francisco Pizarro

56 Charles Martel

57 Ramses II

58 Trajan

59 Tamerlane

60 Shaka Zulu

61 Saladin

62 Hammurabi

63. Robert Clive

64 Epaminondas

65 Georgi Konstantinovich Zhukov

66Joseph Goebbels

67Robert Guiscard

68 Chester W. Nimitz

69 Gustavus Adolphus

70Pyotr Bagration

71 Isoroku Yamamoto

72Bohdan Khmelnytsky

73 Khalif Umar

74 John Paul Jones

75 Isabel the Catholic

76 William T. Sherman

77Matthew Ridgway

78 Ulysses S. Grant

79 Publius Cornelius Scipio

80Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck

81Flavius Stilicho

82 Hernán Cortés

83Charles XII

84Robert the Bruce

85Frederick II of Prussia

86Maurice, comte de Saxe

87 john bell hood

88Reinhard Heydrich

89Philip II of Macedon

90  Henry V

91 Bernard Law Montgomery

92Joseph Mengele

93Piet Joubert

94Josef Kramer

95 Douglas MacArthur

96William T. Sherman

97Christiaan de Wet

98 Nathanael Greene

99Dwight D. Eisenhower

100 Henry Lee III

101Jan Smuts

102Koos de la Rey

103Alexander Nevsky

104 Odilo Globocnik

105Yusuf ibn Tashfin

106Hou Junji

107 Adolf Eichmann

108Ernst Kaltenbrunner

109Oskar Dirlewanger

110 Sam Houston

111Cetshwayo kaMpande

112Ntshingwayo Khoza

113Dabulamanzi kaMpande

114Sir Henry Bartle Frere

115Lord Chelmsford

116Garnet Wolseley

117 Napoleon III

118Maximilian I of Mexico

119Venancio Puz

120George M. Flournoy

121 José Crescencio Poot

122 Godfrey of Bouillon

123 Raymond IV, Count of Toulouse

124 Stephen II of Blois

125Baldwin of Boulogne

126Eustace III of Boulogne

127Robert II of Flanders

128Adhemar of Le Puy

129Hugh I of Vermandois

130Robert II of Normandy

131Bohemond of Taranto

132Tancred of Taranto

133Alexios I Komnenos

134Tatikios

135Manuel Boutoumites

136Guglielmo Embriaco

137Constantine I

138Ghazi ibn Danishmend

139Iftikhar ad-Daula

140Al-Afdal Shahanshah

141Conrad III of Germany

142Henry II of Jerusalem

143Amalric of Tyre

144Al-Ashraf Khalil

145 Henry II the Pious

146Baidar

147 Kadan,

148Orda Khan

149 Peter II of Aragon

150Mathurin Romegas

151Jean Parisot de la Valette

152Jean de la Cassière

153Turgut Reis

154Gaspard de Vallier

155Piyale Pasha

156 Lala Kara Mustafa Pasha

157Suluc Mehmed Pasha

158Agostino Barbarigo

159 Álvaro de Bazán

160Gianandrea Doria

161Marcantonio Colonna

162Sebastiano Venier

163John of Austria

164Müezzinzade Ali Pasha

165 Garnier de Nablus

166Philippe Villiers de L'Isle-Adam

167Suleiman the Magnificent

168Mustafa Pasha

169 Kurtoğlu Muslihiddin Reis

170 Sinan Pasha

172Robert de Sablé

173Guy of Lusignan

174Hugh III, Duke of Burgundy

175 Saladin

176Akhtar Mohammad Osmani

177Mikhail Malofeyev

178William F. Garrison

179Mickey Marcus

180Yaakov Dori

181Yigael Yadin

182Fawzi al-Qawuqji

183Major General Ariel Sharon

184Uzi Narkiss

185Mordechai Gur

186Israel Tal

187Haim Bar-Lev

188Benjamin "Benny" Peled

189Trtsus

190Cyaxares the Great

191Demophilus

192Hegesandridas

193Dionysius I

194Marcus Furius Camillus

195Nero Claudius Drusus Germanicus

196 Cao Cao

197Honorius

198Ambrosius Aurelianus

199King Arthur

200Odo the Great

201Abd er Rahman

202Harald Hardrada

203Harold II

204John James Peck

205 James longstreet

206 John O'Neill

207Sitting Bull

208Crazy Horse

209George A. Custer 

210 Nelson Appleton Miles

211Theodore Roosevelt

212 William Rufus Shafter

213George Dewey

214William Thomas Sampson

215Wesley Merritt

216Joseph Wheeler

217 Patricio Montojo

218 Ramón Blanco y Erenas

219Antero Rubín Homent

220Don Valeriano Weyler y Nicolau

221Stephen Decatur

222Andrew Jackson

223Albert Sidney Johnston

224P. G. T. Beauregard,

225Braxton Bragg

226Leonidas Polk

227John Reynolds

228John Hunt Morgan

229Hermann von François

230Albrecht, Duke of Württemberg

231Marshal Joseph Jacques Césaire Joffre

232Charles Lanrezac

233Karl von Bülow

234Max Hoffmann

235Horace Lockwood Smith-Dorrien

236Alexander von Kluck

237Nikolay Iudovich Ivanov

238Nikolai Ruzsky

239 Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin

240Marshal Edward Rydz-Śmigły

241Semyon Mikhailovich Budyonny

242Charles George Gordon

243Field Marshal Horatio Herbert Kitchener

244The Lord Keyes

245The Earl of Ypres

246Adna Romanza Chaffee

247Baron Fukushima Yasumasa

248Radko Dimitriev

249Marshal Ferdinand Foch

250Karl von Müller

251Maximilian von Spee

252Radomir Putnik

253Živojin Mišić

254 Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck

255The Earl Kitchener

256Sir Ian Standish Monteith Hamilton

257Marquis Togo Heihachiro Saneyoshi

258Yellow Emperor

258Sargon the Great

259 Necho II

260Troilus

261Nabopolassar

262Nebuchadnezzar II

263Narses

264Gustav Horn af Björneborg

265Johan Banér

266Lennart Torstensson

267Fernando de Sottomayor

268Antonio de Oquendo

269Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter

270George Monck, 1st Duke of Albemarle

271Willem Joseph baron van Ghent tot Drakenburgh

273Stephen Decatur, Jr

274 Philip Broke

275 James Lawrence

276Oliver Hazard Perry

277Alexander Macomb

278Louis-Joseph de Montcalm-Gozon

279François-Marie Le Marchand de Lignery

280James Grant

281marquis de La Fayette

282William Howe

283Anthony Wayne

284James Wolfe

285Louis-Joseph de Montcalm-Gozon
Marquis de Saint-Veran

286Ferdinand, Prince of Brunswick-Lüneburg

287Edward Boscawen

288Edward Boscawen

289William F. Dean

290Matthew Calbraith Butler

291Matthew Calbraith Butler

292Oliver P. Smith

293Walton Walker

294Jubal Anderson Early

295Ambrose Powell Hill, Jr.

296Winfield Scott Hancock

297William Barret Travis

298James "Jim" Bowie

299Antonio López de Santa Anna

300Joseph Eggleston Johnston

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote banna32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2013 at 11:45

300Joseph Eggleston Johnston

301 Mannerheim

302 vlad the impaler

303 Batu Khan

304 Han Xin

305 Nikolai Nikolayevich Yudenich

306Jan Žižka

307Rodrigo Díaz de Vivar

308Gustav II Adolf

309 Selim I

310Tiglath-Pileser III

311Yue Fei

312Murad IV

313Basil II

314Ignacio Zaragoza

315Militiades

316Aëtius

317Michel Ney

318Beverly Robertson

319Henry Jackson Hunt

320Sterling Price

321Heinz Wilhelm Guderian

322Vo Nguyen Giap

323William "Billy" Mitchell

324Iphicrates

325James G. Blunt

326Peter Wittgenstein

327Laurent de Gouvion Saint-Cyr

328Francis Godfroy

329John B. Campbell

330Ely S. Parker

331Stand Watie

332Thomas Carmichael Hindman, Jr.

333Francis Jay Herron

334Edward Pellew, 1st Viscount Exmouth

335Louis Lazare Hoche

336Sir Ralph Abercromby

337Alexander Suvorov

338Jan Henryk Dąbrowski

339Charles Leclerc

340Donatien-Marie-Joseph de Vimeur

341François-Dominique Toussaint L'Ouverture

342Ferenc Ottinger

343Mór Perczel

344Artúr Görgey

345Tito Speri

346János Damjanich

347Henryk Dembiński

348Józef Zachariasz Bem

349Franz Joseph von Schlik of Bassano and Weisskirchen

350John Porter McCown

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Birddog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2013 at 16:39
Patton was one of the stars of the second half of the 2nd World War. He was lucky to get a command when Allied strength was starting to become overwhelming. He was an aggressive commander who might have done better serving in the German or Russian armies where a disregard of high casualties was normal. However he was handicapped as being a general for the western democracies, who could not get away with huge casualties.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote banna32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 2013 at 10:57
hay i need more names and they are not in order yet
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2013 at 04:01
Originally posted by AlphaS520 AlphaS520 wrote:

So ridiculous?
Cao Cao knows of ambushes, he knows of feints, he knows how to use decoy and deception, he knows how to maneuver, he knows how to interact physically (such as leaving a pile of gold behind his fleeing soldiers, hoping some of the enemy will stop and pick them up) etc All this, every single general of the Three Kingdom knows, and so does Sun Tzu, all this, Alexander nor Hannibal, Napoleon Bonaparte nor Frederik, Clausewitz nor Caesar, they know nothing.
  One qestion how deep are this mans pockets that he will leave a a little plie of money when ever he is scared and running away.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2013 at 04:06
Originally posted by AlphaS520 AlphaS520 wrote:

The bigger question is, why on earth is Alexander on the list (seriously his tactical skills is like a child compared to all others), let alone second place.
 
In compairson of age he was a child but I think you are being a little hasty in titiling him a child skills.
 
Do come and tell when you have conquered the middle east and part of india in 13 years of taking an active part in any army.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote banna32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2013 at 10:18

250Karl von Müller

251Maximilian von Spee

252Radomir Putnik

253Živojin Mišić

254 Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck

255The Earl Kitchener

256Sir Ian Standish Monteith Hamilton

257Marquis Togo Heihachiro Saneyoshi

258Yellow Emperor

258Sargon the Great

259 Necho II

260Troilus

261Nabopolassar

262Nebuchadnezzar II

263Narses

264Gustav Horn af Björneborg

265Johan Banér

266Lennart Torstensson

267Fernando de Sottomayor

268Antonio de Oquendo

269Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter

270George Monck, 1st Duke of Albemarle

271Willem Joseph baron van Ghent tot Drakenburgh

273Stephen Decatur, Jr

274 Philip Broke

275 James Lawrence

276Oliver Hazard Perry

277Alexander Macomb

278Louis-Joseph de Montcalm-Gozon

279François-Marie Le Marchand de Lignery

280James Grant

281marquis de La Fayette

282William Howe

283Anthony Wayne

284James Wolfe

285Louis-Joseph de Montcalm-Gozon
Marquis de Saint-Veran

286Ferdinand, Prince of Brunswick-Lüneburg

287Edward Boscawen

288Edward Boscawen

289William F. Dean

290Matthew Calbraith Butler

291André Masséna

292Oliver P. Smith

293Walton Walker

294Jubal Anderson Early

295Ambrose Powell Hill, Jr.

296Winfield Scott Hancock

297William Barret Travis

298James "Jim" Bowie

299Antonio López de Santa Anna

300Joseph Eggleston Johnston

301 Mannerheim

302 vlad the impaler

303 Batu Khan

304 Han Xin

305 Nikolai Nikolayevich Yudenich

306Jan Žižka

307Rodrigo Díaz de Vivar

308Gustav II Adolf

309 Selim I

310Tiglath-Pileser III

311Yue Fei

312Murad IV

313Basil II

314Ignacio Zaragoza

315Militiades

316Aëtius

317Michel Ney

318Beverly Robertson

319Henry Jackson Hunt

320Sterling Price

321Heinz Wilhelm Guderian

322Vo Nguyen Giap

323William "Billy" Mitchell

324Iphicrates

325James G. Blunt

326Peter Wittgenstein

327Laurent de Gouvion Saint-Cyr

328Francis Godfroy

329John B. Campbell

330Ely S. Parker

331Stand Watie

332Thomas Carmichael Hindman, Jr.

333Francis Jay Herron

334Edward Pellew, 1st Viscount Exmouth

335Louis Lazare Hoche

336Sir Ralph Abercromby

337Alexander Suvorov

338Jan Henryk Dąbrowski

339Charles Leclerc

340Donatien-Marie-Joseph de Vimeur

341François-Dominique Toussaint L'Ouverture

342Ferenc Ottinger

343Mór Perczel

344Artúr Görgey

345Tito Speri

346János Damjanich

347Henryk Dembiński

348Józef Zachariasz Bem

349Franz Joseph von Schlik of Bassano and Weisskirchen

350John Porter McCown

351Nobuyoshi Muto

352Julius Kuperjanov

353James Harbord

354 Robert Lee Bullard

355William Eaton

356Presley Neville O'Bannon

357Karl Mack von Leiberich

358Yuri Lisyansky

359Edward Preble

360Field Marshal Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington

361Daniel Morgan

362Banastre Tarleton

263Sir Cornelis Maartenszoon Tromp, 1st Baronet

364George Monck, 1st Duke of Albemarle

365Oliver Cromwell

366Tugay Bey

367Grand Hetman

368Samuel Read Anderson

369James Jay Archer

370Nathaniel Banks

371Richard Taylor

372George Hume Steuart

373 Xenophon

374 Phormio

375 Lysander

376 Alcibiades

377 Bái Qǐ,

378 Marcus Atilius Regulus

379 Gaius Lutatius Catulus

380 Jonathan Apphus

381 Antoine-Guillaume Rampon

382 Quizquiz

383 Francisco Pizarro

384 Tariq ibn Ziyad

385Miguel Grau Seminario

386Mariano Ignacio Prado

387Juan Williams Rebolledo

388John O'Neill

389General von Moltke

390General von Falkenstein

391General von Arentschildt

392Wilhelm von Tegetthoff

393John Sedgwick

394Cadmus Marcellus Wilcox

395Cadmus Marcellus Wilcox

396Alexander William Doniphan

397Franz Joseph von Schlik of Bassano and Weisskirchen

398Prince of Windisch-Grätz

399Louis-Alexandre Berthier

400Mikhail Kutuzov

401Charles XIV & III John

402Louis-Nicolas d'Avout

403 Ferdinand, Duke of Brunswick

404Ernst Gideon von Laudon

405Robert Clive

406Sir Ralph Abercromby

407Sargon the Great

408Thutmose III

409King Wu of Zhou

410Ashurbanipal

410Psammetichus I

411Sinsharishkun

412Xenophon

413Gobryas

414Cambyses II

415Miltiades the Younger

416Callimachus 

417Eurybiades

418Themistocles

419James Scott, 1st Duke of Monmouth, 1st Duke of Buccleuch

420Ludwig von Reuter

421Julian Byng

423Georg von der Marwitz

424Edmund Allenby

425Philip Chetwode

426Henry Chauvel

427Ali Fuat Cebesoy

428Enver Pasha

429Armando Diaz

430Svetozar Boroević

431Arminius

432Vespasian

434Titus Maximus

435Huang Zu

436Constantine

437Licinius

438Flavius Julius Crispus

439Constantius II

440Shapur II the Great

441Julian the Apostate

442Ardaric

443Flavius Aëtius

444John Troglita

445Bagrat IV

446Robert Guiscard

447Robert Guiscard

448Richard I Drengot

449Alexios I Komnenos

450Earl Van Dorn

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