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The Top 100 Generals of History

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    Posted: 20 Jun 2009 at 16:50
The Top 100 Generals of History

For several years now, I and the people of the All Empires Forum (and the Paradox Interactive Forum) have been working on assembling the top 100 generals of all time in a cohesive list.  The objective is to not be biased by location at all, nor by era--we consider the generals according to their particular situation.

Originally, I started this work because I was dissatisfied with the "Military 100" that Michael Lee Lanning wrote, but liked the concept.  I considered 15 Americans in the top 100 more than a little biased!

Once researching online, I came across the work of Travis Congleton and Spartan, who already had excellent lists that I used heavily as reference for this work.

Here is Spartan's list: The Commanders of History--A Compilation
Here is Travis Congleton's list: Top 100 Commanders

The original thread is in the Archive: The Top 100 Generals
The thread on Paradox Interactive is here: The Top 100 Generals of History

Here is Version 8 of the list, with changes from the original list over 3 years ago:

Orig. Rank Name
6 1 Temujin (Genghis Khan)
1 2 Alexander the Great
3 3 Napoleon Bonaparte
2 4 Hannibal Barca
21 5 Timur
44 6 Khalid ibn al-Walid
23 7 Aleksandr Suvorov
24 8 Jan Žižka
12 9 Belisarius
8 10 John Churchill (Duke of Marlborough)
17 11 Subotai
4 12 Gustav II Adolf
14 13 Scipio Africanus the Older
15 14 Gaius Julius Caesar
16 15 Eugene of Savoy
11 16 Henri de La Tour d'Auvergne de Turenne
7 17 Heraclius
20 18 Sir Arthur Wellesley (Duke of Wellington)
5 19 Frederick II of Prussia
18 20 Maurice, comte de Saxe
13 21 Raimondo Montecuccoli
9 22 Philip II of Macedon
  23 Stefan cel Mare (Stephen III)
68 24 Selim I
10 25 Gaius Marius
  26 George Kastrioti (Skanderbeg)
27 27 Erich von Manstein
58 28 Nadir Shah
  29 Robert Clive
  30 Hán Xìn
28 31 Gonzalo Fernández de Córdoba (El Gran Capitán)
19 32 Helmuth Karl Bernhard von Moltke
  33 Shapur I
92 34 Chandragupta Maurya
43 35 Maurice of Nassau
33 36 Heinz Wilhelm Guderian
63 37 Robert E. Lee
26 38 Louis Nicholas Davout
34 39 Louis II de Bourbon, Prince de Condé
45 40 Tiglath-Pileser III
32 41 Thutmose III
  42 Trần Hưng Đạo
48 43 Toyotomi Hideyoshi
30 44 Lucius Cornelius Sulla
  45 Yue Fei
77 46 Babur
78 47 Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson
46 48 Janos Hunyadi
47 49 Duke of Parma (Alessandro Farnese)
35 50 Leo III the Isaurian
  51 Hamilcar Barca
  52 Simeon I the Great
31 53 Winfield Scott
  54 Nurhaci
36 55 Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck
53 56 Charles XII
51 57 Oda Nobunaga
  58 Shivaji Bhosle
  59 Francesco I Sforza
  60 Stanisław Koniecpolski
52 61 Claude-Louis-Hector de Villars
  62 Louis Joseph de Bourbon, duc de Vendôme
59 63 Georgy Zhukov
56 64 Aurelian (Lucius Domitius Aurelianus)
42 65 Epaminondas
57 66 Jan III Sobieski
  67 Alp Arslan
75 68 Constantine I the Great
  69 Murad IV
  70 Baibars
  71 'Amr ibn al-'As
  72 Emperor Taizong of Tang (Lĭ ShìMín)
  73 Sargon of Akkad
25 74 Suleiman I
81 75 Shaka Zulu
  76 Charles Martel
73 77 François Henri de Montmorency-Bouteville (Luxembourg)
  78 Aleksandr Vasilevsky
79 79 Jebe
  80 David
  81 Lautaro (toqui)
54 82 Flavius Stilicho
60 83 André Masséna
  84 Mahmud of Ghazni
69 85 Ulysses Simpson Grant
  86 Carl Gustav Mannerheim
  87 Uqba ibn Nafi
  88 Muhammad of Ghor
  89 Gazi Evrenos
94 90 Robert the Bruce
  91 Mustafa Kemal
37 92 Albrecht Wallenstein
38 93 Takeda Shingen
90 94 James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
80 95 Pyotr Bagration
  96 Ranjit Singh
  97 Samudragupta
  98 Michael the Brave
  99 Ahmad Shah Durrani
  100 Edmund Allenby, 1st Viscount Allenby

I will reserve the next 4 posts for future use.


Edited by DSMyers1 - 20 Jun 2009 at 17:04
The Top 100 Generals

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Criteria for the Rankings

Originally posted: In the Archive
Quote

Evaluation of Generals

These are the primary facets to consider in evaluating generals’ skills:

  1. Individual battlefield inspirational leadership—leadership of the soldier

a.       Exemplary work/Personal bravery

b.      Motivation

c.       Discipline

d.      Equipment (and hence innovation in equipment)

e.       Logistics (small scale)

  1. Tactical mastery—gaining success on the battlefield

a.       Maneuver

b.      Anticipation

c.       Timing

d.      Deception of intentions

e.       Organization of army

f.        Selection of ground for battle

g.       Disposition of troops

h.       Reconnaissance

i.         Evaluating options

j.        Audacity at proper times

k.      Understanding the enemy

2.5.(Less important) Siege mastery—gaining success in sieges

a.       Logistics

b.      Engineering

c.       Timing

d.      Intelligence gathering

e.       Motivation of troops

  1. Strategic mastery—gaining success in campaign through maneuver or battle

a.       Logistics

b.      Maneuver on large scale

c.       Understanding opportunities

d.      Diplomacy with allied armies/generals

e.       Forcing battle when necessary

f.        Obtaining results from victories in battles

g.       Limiting fallout from defeats in battles

h.       Choosing when to siege and when to bypass strong points

i.         Large-scale organization of army(s)

j.        Audacity at proper times

k.      Evaluating the enemy’s options

l.         Defense—fortifications

  1. Grand strategic mastery—gaining victory/the ends desired through the military campaigns (political victory/conquest)

a.       Diplomacy with allies and foes

b.      Intelligence gathering

c.       Understanding when to go to war

d.      Playing off rivalries

e.       Properly using strategic victories

f.        Choosing proper goals for campaigns

g.       Peace negotiations

h.       Pacification of inhabitants conquered

 

All of these must be considered in relation to:

  1. The relative strength of each side in each of these 4 facets
  2. The skill of opponents
  3. The economy with which victory in each of these 4 facets was one (in money, destruction of property, and manpower).
  4. Where the general was limited by influences out of his control (for instance, many generals had no opportunity to exhibit facet #4, grand strategy).
  5. Where generals were stabbed in the back/not supported by their own nations—see Barca, Hannibal.
  6. Whether the methods in which victories were gained were innovative or common practice (a small influence, but perhaps should be considered).
  7. The time scale of victories





Edited by DSMyers1 - 20 Jun 2009 at 17:09
The Top 100 Generals

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Generals 101-200

These are not in exact order like the top 100 is; this is more for reference than anything else.  Again the left column is original rank from over three years ago.

Orig. Rank Name
87 101 William the Conqueror
65 102 Erwin Rommel
  103 Cao Cao
85 104 Henry V
62 105 Robert Guiscard
96 106 Hernán Cortés
  107 Baji Rao
55 108 Oliver Cromwell
86 109 Nathan Bedford Forrest
  110 Sher Shah Suri
95 111 Saladin 
  112 Gwanggaeto the Great
  113 Yusuf ibn Tashfin
  114 Wanyan Aguda
  115 Nguyen Hue
  116 Gerd von Rundstedt
41 117 William Joseph Slim
  118 Edward, the Black Prince
  119 Giuseppe Garibaldi
  120 Alexander Nevsky
88 121 George Washington
22 122 Cyrus the Great
  123 Nikephoros II Phokas
  124 Sonni Ali
  125 Xu Da
  126 Quintus Sertorius
  127 Eulji Mundeok
  128 Bayinnaung
71 129 Johan t'Serclaes, Count of Tilly
  130 Gotthard Heinrici
  131 Andreas Prokop (Prokop the Great)
  132 Miklós Zrínyi
84 133 Trajan
  134 Li Jing
  135 Joshua
91 136 Nathanael Greene
  137 Andrei Yeremenko
  138 Vo Nguyen Giap
  139 Murong Ke
66 140 Jean Lannes
  141 Xiang Yu
  142 Pyrrhus of Epirus
  143 Harpagus
76 144 Archduke Charles of Austria
72 145 Lucius Septimius Severus
  146 Jan Karol Chodkiewicz
  147 Joseph Radetzky von Radetz
98 148 Attila the Hun
  149 Ban Chao
  150 Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar (El Cid)
  151 Basil II
  152 Suppiluliuma I
39 153 Konstantin Rokossovsky
29 154 Sebastien Le prestre de Vauban
  155 Rajaraja Chola I
  156 Stefan Uroš IV Dušan
100 157 Sun Tzu
74 158 Marcus Claudius Marcellus
67 159 Charlemagne
61 160 George S. Patton
  161 Zhu Yuanzhang (Hongwu)
  162 Mehmed II
  163 Edward III
40 164 Alexios I Komnenos
  165 Ernst Gideon Freiherr von Laudon
  166 Muhammad Shaybani
  167 Yelü Dashi
  168 Leonhard Graf von Blumenthal
  169 Pachacuti Inca Yupanqui
  170 James FitzJames, 1st Duke of Berwick
  171 Arminius
  172 Bertrand du Guesclin
  173 Erich Ludendorff
83 174 William T. Sherman
  175 Tokugawa Ieyasu
  176 Scipio Africanus the Younger
  177 Man Singh I 
  178 Jose de San Martin
  179 Ibrahim Pasha
  180 Jean-Baptiste Eugène Estienne
  181 Muwatalli II
  182 Sun Bin
  183 Tomoyuki Yamash*ta
  184 Chormaqan
  185 Kujula Kadphises
  186 Vladimir II Monomakh
99 187 John Moore
  188 Baron Ernst Gideon von Laudon
  189 Bairam Khan
89 190 Richard I
  191 Piye
  192 Ivan III Vasilevich 
  193 Judar Pasha
  194 Naresuan
  195 Louis William, Margrave of Baden-Baden
  196 Mukhali
  197 Gnaeus Domitius Corbulo
  198 Jai Singh II 
  199 Quizquiz
70 200 Kangxi




Edited by DSMyers1 - 20 Jul 2009 at 23:25
The Top 100 Generals

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Waiting List

These generals are candidates for the list, but I have not slotted them into the top 200 anywhere, either because I'm just not sure or because I don't know enough about them.  PLEASE, help out with this list by providing recommendations!

Muqali the Jalair Mongol
Modu Shanyu (Maodun Chanyu) Xiongnu
Wei Qing China
Kül Tigin Turkic Kaganate
Su Dingfang China
Bohdan Khmelnytsky Cossack
Tuoba Gui (Daowu) China
Istämi Yabghu Göktürks
Guo Ziyi China
Christiaan de Wet Boer
Dwight D. Eisenhower United States
Zhou Yu China
Guo Kan Mongol
Abd al-Qadir Algeria
Koos de la Rey Boer
Piet Joubert Boer
Jan Smuts Boer
Ashina She'er China
Ahuitzotl Aztec
George Marshall United States
Huo Qubing China
Nur ad-Din Zengid
Lin Biao China
Josip Broz Tito Yugoslav
Vasily Chuikov Russia
Diocletian Rome
Zhuge Liang China
Ran Min China
Hou Junji China
Imam Shamil Caucasian
Yelu Abaoji (Taizu) Khitan
Bumin Khan (Buqan Qaghan) Göktürks
Wang Jian China
Tadeusz Kos'ciuszko Poland
Zhao Kuangyin (Taizu) China
Surena Parthia
Wu Zixu China
Ahmad Shah Massoud Afghan
Matthew Ridgway United States
Zhu Di (Yongle Emperor) China
Huayna Capac Inca





Edited by DSMyers1 - 20 Jul 2009 at 23:34
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Search the Archive

Search the original Top 100 Generals thread to read the previous debates about the general you endorse.  I HIGHLY recommend reviewing what has already been said--for instance, there were 100 posts that mentioned Rommel in the old thread...



Edited by DSMyers1 - 20 Jul 2009 at 23:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Craze_b0i Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2009 at 09:28
My 2cents is that philip II of Macedon and the Duke of Wellington should be much much higher.
 
Charles XII possibly should not be on the list at all - he was no doubt a gifted leader but also driven by a compulsive disorder to do things unfeasible, eg. his invasion of Russia. In the end he was probably killed-off by his own side (not a ringing endorsement).
 
Charles X was another capable warrior-king but without the same weaknesses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2009 at 13:40
If those are Craze_boi's 2 cents worth, then here are mine. I think that Wellington and Skenderbeg should be moved up ahead of Eugene of Savoy and Churchill (I am adamant that Wellington was superior to Marlborough), and Gustav should take a hike down the list too. I'm not going to start on Napoleon because that will be fruitless. In fact we were in the middle of discussing Wellington in the old forum, so I might transfer some of those posts.

Regards,

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2009 at 18:41
Originally posted by Knights Knights wrote:

I think that Wellington and Skenderbeg should be moved up ahead of Eugene of Savoy and Churchill


i'd like to hear more about Skanderbeg of whom i don't know so much, particularly i'd like to hear how he's supposed to be better than Stefan cel Mare (contemporary, same enemy) or Shivaji (similar strategic situation).

Quote (I am adamant that Wellington was superior to Marlborough),


agree, though that's a no-brainer. but i think Eugene and Wellington are about equal, those will need some discussion to figure out who's on top of the other.

Quote and Gustav should take a hike down the list too.


agree.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2009 at 01:39
Wow Temujin, I saw that you had posted on this thread and opened it thinking "Oh no I've been torn to pieces by Temujin..." - but I encountered something quite different! Smile

Skenderbeg - I will do my best to post an overview as soon as possible (maybe in comparison to cel Mare and Shivaji, but I am not as well versed with those two)

Wellington - In regards to Eugene, I'm not sure. Maybe I will do some more reading on Eugene.

Oh and I'm in complete agreeance about Gustav.

Regards,

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ResoundingEagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2009 at 22:53
hmmm...its a very good list but...its kinda scattered and certainly missing noteworthy mentions. I see no Chinese generals who would certainly have a place there. There's also a few names I would contest should be included. Also, for the Russians in the 1900's, I think Rokossovsky is more worthy mention. He was one of the most capable Soviet leaders of WW2 and one of the most ethical and diplomatic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2009 at 03:29
Originally posted by ResoundingEagle ResoundingEagle wrote:

hmmm...its a very good list but...its kinda scattered and certainly missing noteworthy mentions. I see no Chinese generals who would certainly have a place there. There's also a few names I would contest should be included. Also, for the Russians in the 1900's, I think Rokossovsky is more worthy mention. He was one of the most capable Soviet leaders of WW2 and one of the most ethical and diplomatic.


Well, list your recommendations and I'll see what I can do.  Far East generals are certainly the weak point of this list.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2009 at 03:53
I think Belisarius should be higher on the list. What about another Romaioi Commander and Emperor? Basil Bulgaritikos. Basil Bulgar-slayer, he was noted for his good logistics, shrewd strategy and tactics, good use of intel and diplomacy and he restored much of the empires territory, and he was leading cavalry charges well into his sixties . . . There's a dude I'd hate to meet on a dark night in an alley.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Etnad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2009 at 09:12
Great list!
I would rate the "Motivation of troops" very high. Cause it probably helped Alexander the Great to be such a succesfull general. Therefore I would probably also rank Gajus Caesar higher.

And I believe that Erwin Rommel should have had an place, because of his "Shadow division" during the ww2.


Edited by Etnad - 19 Jul 2009 at 09:13
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The problem with Rommel was that he paid to much attention to tactics and not enough to logistics and strategy, don't get me wrong I kinda liked Rommel but IMO he would have served much better as a tank and infantry commander.

 
What about John Paul Sobeiski? the king of poland and man who lifted the Ottoman siege of Vienna and commanded the biggest cavalry charge in history.


Edited by Count Belisarius - 20 Jul 2009 at 02:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ResoundingEagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2009 at 01:40
Originally posted by Etnad Etnad wrote:

Great list!
I would rate the "Motivation of troops" very high. Cause it probably helped Alexander the Great to be such a succesfull general. Therefore I would probably also rank Gajus Caesar higher.

And I believe that Erwin Rommel should have had an place, because of his "Shadow division" during the ww2.


Good call. Rommel was an interesting figure for a Nazi, and certainly among the most capable and honorable of his side. It was a shame he was our enemy. I second this proposal. =)

Originally posted by DSMyers1 DSMyers1 wrote:

Originally posted by ResoundingEagle ResoundingEagle wrote:

hmmm...its a very good list but...its kinda scattered and certainly missing noteworthy mentions. I see no Chinese generals who would certainly have a place there. There's also a few names I would contest should be included. Also, for the Russians in the 1900's, I think Rokossovsky is more worthy mention. He was one of the most capable Soviet leaders of WW2 and one of the most ethical and diplomatic.


Well, list your recommendations and I'll see what I can do.  Far East generals are certainly the weak point of this list.


Thanks! Sorry, I come off a bit critical at times, but that's just because I would like to help with my best efforts - and my input should take nothing away from everyone's efforts thus far. Obviously a list like this is a long project which requires much thought and careful examination from numerous efforts. And naturally, I will put my back to the wheel as well since I decided to open my mouth. lol =P

I like your criteria set. That should prove to be some good factors covering a variety of angles - I can see where it has performed admirably with some of the placements.

Chinese Generals >D

Cao Cao  (Meng-De)
Zhuge Liang  (Kong-Ming)
Lu Su

I also still suggest Rokossovsky as well. =3 He accomplished far more in the wider arc of criteria than some of the other Russian WW2 generals mentioned. He arguably held far more merit in a variety of categories, rather than being only war, boardroom, or leadership inclined. I think he would match your criteria higher than even Koniev in a full comparison. Let me know in any way i can be of assisstance. =)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheRedBaron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2009 at 15:16
Rokossovsky should be there without a doubt. Its simply Zhukov's amazing press machine that means he remains a virtual unknown in the West.
 
Rommel.... No not a great general at all. Utterly devoid of any grasp of logistics. Even his Chief-of-staff in the desert, Werner Kreibel, noted his shortcomings in this regard and commented that many operations were a success despite Rommel. Great divisional commander... and that where he should have stayed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2009 at 16:49
Yeah I think it was his cheif of staff who said that he was happiest when leading a division of panzers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2009 at 18:29
Originally posted by Count Belisarius Count Belisarius wrote:

 
What about John Paul Sobeiski? the king of poland and man who lifted the Ottoman siege of Vienna and commanded the biggest cavalry charge in history.
 
You mean John III Sobieski? He is on the list on 67th position. A little bit too high in my opinion as he is not even the best Polish commander but the most famous indeed. Battle of Vienn wasn't any kind of strategic pearl. It was rather an easy win.
 
I still think that we have too many Americans and Europeans but not knowing Asian history I'm not able to propose any further candidates on the list.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Etnad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2009 at 19:36

The succes in North Africa is all on Rommel's account! His only problem was that he had to respond to Hitler - and thereby the logistics.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2009 at 23:43
I've posted a few additional updates on the thread, at the top.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2009 at 00:04
Thanks for your updates DSMyers1!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ResoundingEagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2009 at 03:57
Originally posted by Etnad Etnad wrote:

The succes in North Africa is all on Rommel's account! His only problem was that he had to respond to Hitler - and thereby the logistics.



Well said - logistics were a major issue for the Germans on all fronts, but, reporting to Hitler, I would argue, is worst of all. =P What a good waste of a wondrous man like Rommel. (That's just my opinion though)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2009 at 04:02
DSMyers - I promised an overview/argument for Skenderbeg a couple of weeks back. I apologise, but I have not had the time (nor will I in the near future) to post anything of substance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ResoundingEagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2009 at 04:15
Originally posted by Knights Knights wrote:

DSMyers - I promised an overview/argument for Skenderbeg a couple of weeks back. I apologise, but I have not had the time (nor will I in the near future) to post anything of substance.


BOOOOO! >O *forms angry mob*

I'm kidding, dude. XD You guys (and gals respectively) are doing an awesome job. Just pace yourself.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2009 at 04:34
Originally posted by TheRedBaron TheRedBaron wrote:

Rokossovsky should be there without a doubt. Its simply Zhukov's amazing press machine that means he remains a virtual unknown in the West.
 
Rokossovsky was good, but Zhukov was great. Only Zhukov was able to reverse impending catastrophes and either stalemate (Leningrad) or beat (Moscow) the vaunted German war machine as it existed before attrition ground it down.


Edited by Cryptic - 21 Jul 2009 at 04:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ResoundingEagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2009 at 04:45
Originally posted by Cryptic Cryptic wrote:

Originally posted by TheRedBaron TheRedBaron wrote:

Rokossovsky should be there without a doubt. Its simply Zhukov's amazing press machine that means he remains a virtual unknown in the West.
 
Rokossovsky was good, but Zhukov was great. Only Zhukov was able to reverse impending catastrophes and either stalemate (Leningrad) or beat (Moscow) the vaunted German war machine as it existed before attrition ground it down.


True, Zhukov was more than a great commander, and its to take nothing away from him, but it is true Rokossovsky was never given much attention, even, arguably, as much as he deserved in his own country.

I would not try to say Rokossovsky was better than Zhukov, (despite my personal opinion, which is irrelevant =P ) but I would be as bold, especially considering the lengthy and well thought criteria of this list, to say that its very possible he outranks Koniev and the others, (not Zhukov) beyond doubt.

Do I think that given the opportunities, Rokossovsky would have equalled Zhukov? Obviously I can't answer that definitively, but I do think that given whats known, it certainly was possible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2009 at 09:34
I would argue that due to the Germans overextending their forces and their logistical possibilities, no Soviet commander was in any 'actual' difficulty to force the Germans into a retreat after some time. Therefore, they are no 'military geniuses'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Etnad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2009 at 10:12
Since many of the soviet commanders where trained by the german commanders.. I would hardly place a soviet general instead of a german general on the list.
Glad you agree Eagle, it must have been frustrating working under Hitler. That man should have gone to the military-academy or something :D
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheRedBaron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2009 at 12:40
Originally posted by Etnad Etnad wrote:

The succes in North Africa is all on Rommel's account! His only problem was that he had to respond to Hitler - and thereby the logistics.

 
No not really.
 
The actual supplies scheduled for North Africa were substanial, the problem was getting it there.
 
Most of it ended up on the bottom fo the Med thanks to the RAF and RN, not Mr. Hitler.
 
Rommel had no grasp of logistics at the sharp end. He reguarly moved units too far from supply points causing massive strain on supply routes, and in several instances over-extended his force and cused it to become operationally mired.
 
He also failed to use proper recce as shown at Tobruk, and often felt speed of action would make up for detail recce... He was proved wrong when his tanks drove into minefields instead of waiting for the engineers to move up and clear them paths.
 
His real problem though was his desire to micro-manage everything and this then left him out of contact with his command mechanisms for extended periods often at vital moments in an operation. The fact that his own C-o-S is so critical of him, when his opponents were not, says alot about the propaganda machine and the image of the 'Good' German that Rommel has benefitted ffrom... The man who commanded Hitlers bodyguard detachment in poland.
 
He utterly fails to meet several of the points listed above as prime-requisites to meet inclusion on the list.
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