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The heroes of Greek mythos

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 11:29
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I don't know what mythology.
Sorry, the Furies are associated with the three Graces

InEumenides,Orestes' act was depicted as just, and the god Apollo* protected him in his sacredshrineat Delphi*. But the Furies still demanded justice. Finally, the gods persuaded the Furies to allow Orestes to be tried by the Areopagus, an ancient court in the city of Athens. The goddess Athena*, thepatronof Athens, cast the deciding ballot.

Athena then calmed the anger of the Furies, who became known afterward as the Eumenides (soothed ones) or Semnai Theai (honorable goddesses). Now welcomed in Athens and given a home there, they helped protect the city and its citizens from harm. The Furies also had shrines dedicated to them in other parts of Greece. In some places, the Furies were linked with the three Graces, goddess sisters who represented beauty, charm, and goodness—qualities quite different from those usually associated with the Furies

Read more: http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Fi-Go/Furies.html#ixzz5xqiX9Gjy

Quote The greatest Hero (besides Heracles) is probably Achilles.  After Achilles died, Odysseus and Ajax the Greater competed over his armor (made by Hephaestus), each gave his speech, Ajax was an immensely strong hero, who did not have to rely on the gods for his prowess, Odysseus however, argued that he deserved it, because not only did he personally do great heroic feats, but he urged other men on, and therefore was instrumental in winning the Trojan War.  Odysseus had done stuff like rally the men, when they were in a retreat, he stood up to Achilles when Achilles wanted the whole army to fast after the death of Patroclus, saying that Achilles could do what he wants, but the whole army needs its breakfast if they were going to fight that day.  Odysseus won the armor and so, because of his wiles is the second greatest hero after Achilles before Troy.
Armand Assante was a great Odysseus in the 1997 extended film. Clash of the Titans 1981 and Jason and the Argonauts made in 1963 are great depictions. The skeleton fight scenes done with the animation of Ray Harryhausen made it impressive work for the time and it is still very clever now. Jason and Perseus are great heroes. 
Are they in a different category than Achilles and Ajax? The goddesses Athena & Hera offered a lot of assistance to Jason and Perseus.
  


Edited by Vanuatu - 28 Aug 2019 at 11:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2019 at 05:15
Different mythological origins.  Think of Troy as a generation or two after most of the heroes.  Some the heroes are suns of heroes.  Philotectes who left behind on an island with a festering wound, has Heracles bow.  Something the Achaeans (Greeks need according to prophecy).  In earlier days Heracles visited Troy.   I think it is Diomedes who is the son of Tydeus who fought before Thebes, another cycle.  The myths to some degree overlap, but not always nor completely.  Heracles is in the Argonaut, but bows out early on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2019 at 10:31
When Ajax lost the contest to Odysseus, he went a brooded in his tent, then he decided to go on a rampage killing Odysseus and the two kings, Menelaus and Agememnon as well as the other Greeks.  Athena however found out what he was planning and deceived him in his rage, and sent him into the flock of sheep and cattle that the Greeks had won from defeating the Trojans.  Wading into the cattle, he thought he was killing the Greeks.  When his senses cleared, he discovered what he had done, went to th beach and fell on his sword.

So, you have the
The Theban Cycle,
The Trojan Cycle,
The Argonautica (Miletus)
The Boeotian tradition.
and others which we know little
or nothing about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 2019 at 12:26
Quote Achilles also has twin fates, something that only one other Greek hero has (and we have a name, but don't know his story), he could either live a long but uneventful life, or a short but glorious one.

Achilles has two fates, or did you mean twin? They are very different choices. Lots of regular people have to make that choice too. Achilles chose glory but he didn't get it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 2019 at 04:19
I don't know how it is phrased, from my understanding at some point he could freely have chosen A or freely have chosen B.  Whereas, a lot of people by trying to avoid their fate actually fell into it.  Oedipus, fleeing so that he would not murder his father (actually his _adopted_ father), ran into his actual father, murdered him, and then went to the nearby city and married the queen, thus becoming the king, but also the husband of his mother.

Achilles did get glory, he slew Hector who was the heart of the Trojan defense.  He also later (than the Iliad) slew Memnon, whose mother was the goddess Dawn.

Of course, some people will argue that actually Achilles as a hero had no choice, but had to go back into the fray.  That is who "he was."  But, I think that there actually was a time, when he could have gone a different direction than the direction he did go.  It is kind of a counterfactual, 'if Achilles had done 'X,' (sailed away, not avenged Patroclus, not given Patroclus his armor....), he would have lived a long and uneventful life.  It is a type of knowledge that we don't have, "the time right now is 11:14, if I had gone to the store this morning, I would have gotten a candy bar."  I did not go to the store, therefore I couldn't have known whether I would have gotten a candy bar, but a god could know.  That is what we are imaging when we imagine two fates, (or twin fates?), I think of them as twin, because they are paired together, one can do one or the other, but not both. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 15:24
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:


Achilles did get glory, he slew Hector who was the heart of the Trojan defense.  He also later (than the Iliad) slew Memnon, whose mother was the goddess Dawn.

Achilles tells Odysseus in the Underworld that he would rather be low and alive rather than glorified but in Hades awaiting filtration. Almost starting to sound like sin, any choice by a demigod should have kept him above ground, do you agree?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2019 at 03:32
filtration??

I wonder if "demigod" is a modern coinage.  Achilles lived fast and died young, he could have lived slow, amounted to little, and died later.  Not dying was not an option.  Although admittedly it does seem like an option for Menelaus, Helen, and maybe Heracles.

Of course, he is talking to Odysseus in the underworld, the ultimate survivor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Sep 2019 at 00:09
"filtration??"
The word filtration-reading about Achilles in the afterlife. The reason for keeping figures of deceased relatives around was less about grief more about Eusebia or piety, it was a citizens responsibility to keep the dead happy by remembering. And remember them happy! It will keep the dead from causing mischief for the living. If you were in Elysium and no living person held you in memory as a virtuous person then as a psyche would be downgraded to Tartarus.

The pysche in death or eidolon did not have intellect or phrenes. The intellect has been left in the body  possibly the liver and diaphragm. So the reflection of Achilles in death is a diminished reflection of living Achilles. Most essays and articles have Achilles wandering the plains of Tartarus for eternity. Achilles is less and less an essence of his former human self until he returns to a kind of mist. Still working on finding that article it was unique for its discussion eternity being more like infinity.

Eventually everyone is alone in Tartarus, then you are free again. Killing the demigod was not something Paris could do, Apollo has reasons for killing Achilles.
Wiki-

Etymology[edit]

demi- +‎ god. Calque of the Latin semideus (half-god), which is probably a coining by the Roman poet Ovid for less important gods such as dryads.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 13:38
Apollo directed the arrow from Paris' bow that killed Achilles.  Some accounts hitting him in his vulnerable heel.  You could kill Achilles, you just had to know where to hit him, at least according to later versions.

Apollo, by this time was probably prohibited like the rest of the gods from actively helping his side, telling Paris where to aim, wouldn't 'quite' be interference.

There is a difference between Hades and Tartarus.  I don't know what "most essays and articles" are, it would be good to know when and who those articles are published.  Scholarship changes over time, although a lot of what I like is old scholarship.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 16:59
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Apollo directed the arrow from Paris' bow that killed Achilles.  Some accounts hitting him in his vulnerable heel.  You could kill Achilles, you just had to know where to hit him, at least according to later versions.

Apollo, by this time was probably prohibited like the rest of the gods from actively helping his side, telling Paris where to aim, wouldn't 'quite' be interference.

There is a difference between Hades and Tartarus.  I don't know what "most essays and articles" are, it would be good to know when and who those articles are published.  Scholarship changes over time, although a lot of what I like is old scholarship.
Paris is mortal though, how does mortal kill demigod?

The first link discusses the beliefs about afterlife, war dead, Iliad/Oddessy/Aeneid.

The nature of Tartarus -

The primordial deity of the Tartarean pit sired a single child by Gaia (Earth) named Typhoeus--a monstrous, serpentine storm-giant who attempted to seize the throne of heaven. Zeus vanquished the creature and cast it back down into the pit of Tartaros where it remained as the cosmic-source of hurricanes and storm winds. The protogenos (primordial deity) Tartaros scarcely figures in myth and was a purely elemental deity, i.e. the pit itself instead of an anthropomorphic god.

Later, classical writers re-imagined Tartaros as a hellish prison-house for the damned conflating it with Homer's Haidean chamber of torments. This realm is described on a separate page--Tartaros, the Dungeon of the Damned.

Basically Achilles knows he is turning Hector into a ghost but may feel entirely obligated to do it. 

https://lawandreligionforum.org/2015/10/27/mistreating-the-enemys-body-the-judgment-of-zeus/

“Does not the hero’s beautiful death, which grants him eternal glory, have as its necessary corollary, its sinister obverse, the disfigurement and debasement of the dead opponent’s body, so as to deny him access to the memory of men to come? . . . [W]hat is most important is not to kill one’s enemy but to deprive him of a beautiful death.” When Achilles drag Hector through the dust, he seeks to deny him that “beautiful death”; when Apollo protects Hector with his golden shield, a god ensures that Hector may still have the beautiful death worthy of such a warrior.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2019 at 11:29
Where do you get this demigod thang?  There are mortals, heroes, daemons (which are often the spirits of heroes after death), and gods.  Achilles in his rage pushes up on the ceiling of being a mortal, but is still not divine.  Heracles becomes immortal when he takes upon himself Chiron's immortality.  Chiron was poisoned by one of the arrows of Heracles dipped in Hydra blood.  He is in pain, and want to be freed from his pain.  Later, Heracles needs to be freed from his own pain.  Which is why he needs to be immolated to free himself from the Hydra blood poison, when he is poisoned by the robe Deijanira made from the centaur Nessus' hide (who Heracles shot).  She was told by Nessus that if he ever strayed, the robe would make sure he (Herc) he would stay with her.

Now maybe Romans had demigods.  But the Pythagoreans said that there are three things that are rational, mortals, gods, and one thing besides Pythagoras).

I think that having one parent a god and one parent a mortal makes you a "demigod," but it doesn't make you a lesser immortal, just a really kick-ass hero.  Sarpedon dies in the Iliad, despite being the son of Zeus.

The dog is pressuring me for a walk.  I have no will of my own.  I will get to Tartarus soon.

"In the Homeric poems and in Hesiod's Theogony, Tartarus is the deepest region of the world, placed beneath the underworld itself.  There was the same distance between Hades and Tartarus as there was between Heaven and Earth.  It was in Tartarus that successive generations of gods locked away their enemies."  "Tartarus [became] the anti-type of the Elysian Fields where the Blessed lived.  In the Theogony, Tartarus is personified and represents the primordial elements of the world, along with Eros, Chaos and Gaia.  Penguin Dictionary of Classical Mythology.

Couldn't get your links to work. 'http// not found'  


Edited by franciscosan - 21 Sep 2019 at 00:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2019 at 00:46
Thetis is a water goddess. Achilles weak spot wasn't known to Paris or to Achilles. Is there a line or a description of Paris receiving this knowledge? Sorry, I'm reading that the Greeks had demigods.

To be clear, I am looking up stuff on the internet and you studied at the University level. 
These stories have been retold and scholarship with archaeology rewrite the stories, as itt has always been. Do not mistake my contrary statements for confident beliefs, I'm just trying to understand it bc the parallels to modern metaphysics and symbolism are fascinating. 

If you read http// not found, that's error 404 I believe, they include another hyperlink and that should work.
It's not the double http// mistake, although I see I have done that. There will be evidence, Google is re-routing my hyperlinks bc of all the pro-Trump comments. 

After the second democratic debate Tulsi Gabbard was the most Googled D candidate. She discovered that Google changed algorithms to keep people from accessing her content and kept her content from appearing on various web pages including her official campaign site. Google takes its cues from DNC, who are not behind Gabbard's campaign. 
Gabbard is suing Google who's CEO is on tape admitting that they interfered with information from pro-Trump sources. Why not Gabbard too? She was in the way.
I'm not important, not a candidate but I'm poking all the right (wrong?) places.


Edited by Vanuatu - 04 Oct 2019 at 01:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2019 at 00:57

https://www.theoi.com/Pontios/NereisThetis.html

THETIS was a goddess of the sea and the leader of the fifty Nereides. Like many other sea gods she possessed the gift of prophesy and power to change her shape at will.

Because of a prophesy that she was destined to bear a son greater than his father, Zeus had her marry a mortal man. Peleus, the chosen groom, was instructed to ambush her on the beach, and not release his grasp of the struggling goddess as she metamorphosed into a host of shapes. The couple were afterwards married in a ceremony attended by all the gods of heaven. She bore a son, the celebrated hero Akhilleus (Achilles).

In her desperate attempts to protect her son during the Trojan War, Thetis called in many favours from the gods. These included Hephaistos (Hephaestus) and Dionysos, both of whom she had given refuge in the sea as they faced crises of youth, and Zeus, whose throne she had protected by summoning the giant Briareus-Aigaion (Aegaeon) when the gods had sought to bind him.

Thetis's name is connected with the ancient Greek words thesis "creation" and têthê "nurse".


Thetis riding Hippocamp, Apulian red-figure Pelike C5th B.C., The J. Paul Getty Museum

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2019 at 01:19
Zeus could have saved Sarpendon but Hera tells Zeus that the other god/goddesses will interfere and help their favorites, Apollo protects Hector by making his shield strong. 

Then Zeus announces that Achilles will kill Hector so the promise to Thetis is kept and Achilles will be a hero but he will die bc Zeus allows Sarpendon to die and forbids the gods from interfering otherwise and Achilles through Zeus/Apollo is dead. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2019 at 09:00
The gods know it is a bad idea to mess with Fate (moira).  So, yes, maybe Zeus is tempted, but it would open up problems in all kinds of ways (including with the other gods).  But, even if they save them once, the gods would probably not be able to save there favorite mortals for good.  Heracles, however, does seem like an exception.

Prometheus knows the prophesy and uses it to get Zeus to free him.  I think that Thetis does not, at least not according to Aeschylus' _Prometheus Bound_.

You should understand that there is Homer, (and the Attic Tragedies), and then there was a mass of tales overlapping Homer, but sometimes telling variants.  Some of these variants are known by lesser sources, which may be more pure 'mythologically' (like Hyginus and Apollodorus), but less inspirational as literary creations.  Others of these variants are known only by artistic depictions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2019 at 09:11
wikipedia

In the ancient Greek and Roman world, the word did not have a consistent definition and was rarely used.[3][4]

The earliest recorded use of the term is by the archaic Greek poets Homer and Hesiod. Both describe dead heroes as hemitheoi, or "half gods". In these cases, the word did not literally mean that these figures had one parent who was divine and one who was mortal.[5] Instead, those who demonstrated "strength, power, good family, and good behavior" were termed heroes, and after death they could be called hemitheoi, a process that has been referred to as "heroization".[6] Pindar also used the term frequently as a synonym for hero.[7]


So when it is applied (to a hero) it sounds like it is applied after death, but it is infrequently and inconsistently used.  I wonder if it was a term in the Archaic era, that never caught on, or a term that fell out of favor.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2019 at 01:31
I got the demigod thang from Dungeons and Dragons. Big smile
Different versions of ancient stories about heroes maintain an overlap of important elements and continue to describe the ongoing human experience. As if nothing ever really changes emotionally with humans. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 2019 at 14:44
I used to play D & D, and touched on other RPGs (Role Playing Games), I say that I don't do it any more because I don't know who I am, let alone pretending to be someone else.  But, probably a more accurate description is that RPGs tend to be a great time sucker, and I feel like I should be doing other things.  If you have an evening on a weekly basis, and nothing better to do, it can be a fun way to fill the time.

Fantasy oriented RPGs can be a great way to indirectly learn about mythology.  Both ancient, and sometimes modern literary mythology.  The different deities books used to have Cthulu (Lovecraft), Nehwon (Leiber), Melibonian (Morcock), and Conan mythos, and Tolkien's Hobbits, but got sued over it and had to take them out.  I'm not sure it is good that commerce takes precedence over imagination.  There is a science fiction game that uses designs of Star Trek ships (and others- Kzinti), they did so, however, for such a long time that when Columbia Pictures sued them they (Columbia Pictures) was laughed out of court.

A little bit of a sidetrack from the main issue, but its all related in the big picture.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2019 at 09:39
D&D was good fun, the myths morphed into modern cartoons and comics, over and over still brand new.

Achilles has his most god like moments in battle when he is in Berzerker mode. Hector defiles Patroclus' body a bit and the gods don't like that. Achilles says I'll show you mutilation! Then he drags Hector around good.
In the Iliad Chariots were taxis and for keel hauling the dead :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2019 at 11:47
The gods preserve Hector's body when it is dragged.  So that Priam can come and get it back for burial.

I don't remember Patroclus' body being defiled particularly, but I don't have the text here.  Striping the dead of armor is not really defiling.

One thing that one must remember is that the army was all (male) citizens, and so to all of them, this and the Attic tragedies were real to them, they had served in war.  I wonder what it was with the traditional society that the equivalence of 'shell-shock' or PTSD was not more pronounced. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2019 at 01:52
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

The gods preserve Hector's body when it is dragged.  So that Priam can come and get it back for burial.

I don't remember Patroclus' body being defiled particularly, but I don't have the text here.  Striping the dead of armor is not really defiling.

One thing that one must remember is that the army was all (male) citizens, and so to all of them, this and the Attic tragedies were real to them, they had served in war.  I wonder what it was with the traditional society that the equivalence of 'shell-shock' or PTSD was not more pronounced. 

The Homeric poems show clearly that it was the most solemn duty incumbent on a warrior not only to avenge the blood of a kinsman or friend by the death of the slayer and of others bound to him by the ties of blood and friendship, but also to outrage thee bodies of these and to prevent their burial. This code of Homeric warfare Achilles follows in refusing the pleas of . . . Hector, and in dragging the body of the latter. . . . Homer shows by numerous passages that to expose to the dogs and vultures the body of one who had wronged a kinsman or friend was both a duty and an act of piety. (Samuel Eliot Bassett, The Poetry of Homer (new ed. 2003 (1938)).

In support of this bold claim, Bassett notes that in retaliation for Patroclus’ slaying of Polydorus, “Hector dragged the body of Patroclus that he might cut off the head (to fix it on the battlements, Iris says) and throw the body to the dogs.” See Iliad Book XVIII, ll. 154-56. What was considered virtuous in Hector could hardly be condemned in Achilles.

https://lawandreligionforum.org/2015/10/27/mistreating-the-enemys-body-the-judgment-of-zeus/

There was an interview with  a woman who was in Las Vegas during that mass shooting 2017. She said that even now if she hears a loud bang she goes right into a panic attack. That is one day in the life and victims can't escape that scene.

Imagine actually being in war, trenches, jungles, deserts-? So many sources of pain and injury. Honestly how do people carry on?

So Achilles and his fellow soldiers may have been compelled or forbidden from desecrating a soldier's body, both traditions existed. 

Is Homer giving us a moral opinion of Achilles' behavior or is he a detached witness?

Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2019 at 04:03
They weren't soldiers, they were warriors. desecrating the dead was considered abhorrent, kind of like shooting someone in the back in a Western, that didn't mean it didn't happen.  It probably happened a lot more than the 'society' cared to admit.

Well, if they are told (and believe) that it was a good war, like WWII, where the division line between the good guys and the bad guys is pretty clear, then it seems less senseless, rather a necessary evil, which can be endured.  The 1946 movie, Best Years of Our Lives, with three vets returning home is an interesting movie to watch.

Morality is not separate from the tale for Homer, but he is not particularly "moralizing," if Simone Weil's article is correct, (Iliad, Poem of Might), Homer is showing all the ugliness, and all the grandeur of the war.  There is something tragic about the Iliad, the great city of Troy is doomed, most of the characters in fact are doomed to die at Troy or shortly after.  Few make it through the war and the journey home.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2019 at 10:36
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

They weren't soldiers, they were warriors. desecrating the dead was considered abhorrent, kind of like shooting someone in the back in a Western, that didn't mean it didn't happen.  It probably happened a lot more than the 'society' cared to admit.
Essential as it was in the classical Greek world to honor the citizen-soldiers who had died for the city, it was also considered important, indeed commanded by the customs of war, to bury the bodies of enemy soldiers who had died in combat, or at least to permit the enemy recover and bury them himself. The custom was not, of course, universally followed, and indeed some have argued that the practice of the world that Homer dramatizes was contrary to it. But by the fifth century, and certainly by the time Euripides’ Suppliants was staged, the practice had congealed into a customary norm. So compelling was that norm, in fact, that it was taken to be a defining mark of Hellenism and of civilization. https://lawandreligionforum.org/2015/10/27/mistreating-the-enemys-body-the-judgment-of-zeus/

What would be the distinction between soldiers and warriors? The words are used interchangeably.  

Before the custom is cemented the custom was non existent, this reverence for the dead must have been an evolution. It's a huge part of Achilles' story, his anger drives him to do something that is "beneath him" says Homer. I feel like this implies an animal or uncivilized quality about man and war. Hector was ready to stick Patroclus' head on a spike at the gates of Troy, since Achilles won't agree to respect the dead.
(See On War, Book One, c. 1, sec. 23, in which Clausewitz says that “the pure concept” of war is that of “a complete, untrammeled, absolute manifestation of violence”).

Hector proposes to Achilles that whichever of them kills the other do no outrage on the defeated man’s dead body:

Let vows of fit respect pass both, when conquest hath bestow’d

          His wreath on either. Here I vow no fury shall be show’d

          That is not manly, on thy corse; but, having spoil’d thy arms,

          Resign thy person; which swear thou. (Iliad Book XXII, ll. 219-22).

Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2019 at 13:23
a "warrior" is of a tribal or clan society.  Everybody is a warrior, from bowman to great King.  But of course, there are chieftains and then there are Chieftains.  Agememnon was in charge over all, but Nestor and Odysseus were also kings.  Agememnon was primes inter pares or "first among equals."  He presided over the council.  Teucer was the half brother of Ajax the greater.  He was a bowman, and therefore less in honor than the kings.

However, on Persian coins (c 500 BC), there is figure of the king, with a bow.  The bow on Persian coins is symbolic of the king's power to effect people (strike) from afar.

A soldier is part of a polis, a society, a nation state.  soldiers take orders, Agememnon would never imagine that he could just order the other kings around.  A king has to go first for a charge, and show his prowess.  A general, well not so much.

custom and tradition are of great age.  Probably ultimately dates back to Neanderthals, who used ochre in their burials.  Respect for the dead goes way back, and one only disrespects the dead, when it is an enemy and one wants to show that disrespect.  Athenian generals were condemned to death after a battle when their ships did not recover the dead.

I would not impose Clauswitz definition of war on the ancients.  Clauswitz is not doing anthropology.
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