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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 03:29
Not, they were not in my house - but even if they were, I'd rather sit them down and offer them a cup of coffee and see how I could help them.  Something must have went very wrong for them.
I know I would never give them your welcome "You get them center of mass then two in the head."
 
I didn't know you were so sensitive about a little exaggeration to promote the understanding....
- the room and killerdogs was merely a look into the future - and maybe it's even not exaggerations in five years time - who knows.
But sorry if I offended your dogs....
 
Yes - I'm all for common sense...  that is what I am advocating for in this thread - common sense.
 
 
 


Edited by Northman - 10 Apr 2012 at 03:30
   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 08:29
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:



Australia was mocked? That would be the first I have heard of it. From my recollection there was nothing but an outpouring of sympathy from others around the world.


Just a quick comment, I was going completely on memory. The internet was newly fresh and  life online then, the brutal attitudes some adopted were  little understood then like they are now. In a word, it was my first encounter with the disgusting internet troll. People really can be quite extraordinarily ugly when they want to be!





Edited by Panther - 10 Apr 2012 at 08:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 11:30
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

. Be sure of your target. I never have my finger on the trigger until it's time to light em up.
And just how many people have you 'lit up'? How many gun duels have you won?
[/QUOTE]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 14:09
Quote  Be sure of your target. I never have my finger on the trigger until it's time to light em up.
 
 
Quote
And just how many people have you 'lit up'? How many gun duels have you won?

 A darn sight more than you. I never had a ship to hide in.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 14:18
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Not, they were not in my house - but even if they were, I'd rather sit them down and offer them a cup of coffee and see how I could help them.  Something must have went very wrong for them.
I know I would never give them your welcome "You get them center of mass then two in the head."
 
I didn't know you were so sensitive about a little exaggeration to promote the understanding....
- the room and killerdogs was merely a look into the future - and maybe it's even not exaggerations in five years time - who knows.
But sorry if I offended your dogs....
 
Yes - I'm all for common sense...  that is what I am advocating for in this thread - common sense.


A guy breaks into your house in the middle of the night,  you're going to sit him down and have some coffee with your intruder." Something must have went very wrong for them." Not so much as what should be about to go "very wrong for them"

I think you're trying to press my buttons Nordy. I just can't take your post seriously. I mean no disrespect by that. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 14:52
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

Quote  Be sure of your target. I never have my finger on the trigger until it's time to light em up.
 
 
Quote
And just how many people have you 'lit up'? How many gun duels have you won?

 A darn sight more than you. I never had a ship to hide in.

How many? Doesn't matter if it's more or less than me.
 
What do ships have to do with anything? I was in the army, in peacetime[1], in military intelligence, for what it's worth. And I know all the jokes about military intelligence. 
 
I assume from your response that you haven't in fact, despite what you write, ever actually shot anyone. If you have then I apologise, but I wish you would straight out answer the question, otherwise there's no reason I can see to pay any attention to your claims of expertise.
 
[1] Actually during the Korean War, but as a Russian specialist, I wasn't sent there.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 18:39

I know Panther asked for a balanced view, and I for one am sorry that I cannot contribute to such a discussion. To me it's black or white - up or down. No balanced middelground.

I fail to see what I should do with a gun for selfprotection - chances are, no matter how much I practise, that whoever should threaten me, would be much better with a gun than I am.

Of course there are huge cultural differences and I know it was commonly used and respected to settle differences by gunfights on the streets 150-100 years ago... 
But is was not like portrayed by John Wayne and other "hero's" - it was bloody, gruesome and without dignity for anyone.....
Adding to that - the new territories of the west lacked law and order - every man was his own law - had to fend for himself...

This idea - each man for himself - is still prevailing to this day. The police is out-numbered and out-armed...    civilians have more firearms than any sheriff or policeman... and the criminals even more...
If the police is equipped with a gun, the criminals will carry two - a death spiral with no end.
How can the police be expected to have the upper hand in this scenario - to uphold law and order?
But that is part of the problem too, isn't it - you don't trust them to do it....

The only way to survive if you are threatened by an armed guy who knows what he is doing - be unarmed and friendly.

The city law from 1609 for the town I live in, clearly states who may carry a weapon in public and who may not.
Already then, it was obvious that weapons kill. As it is obvious today, despite the argument "Guns dont kill - people do."
Yes people kill - but with a gun it's so much easier to kill...

When I was young I worked as a bumper in a nightclub - no one would ever expect anyone carrying a gun - but fistfights were not uncommon....  the worst casualty was a black eye.

Panther and Buskins - Of course I respect your culture and I don't think you should throw out your firearms - but I think you should advocate and work for laws to decrease the number of firearms - preferably work for a total ban for anyone but the police and other law enforcement groups.

That way you would work for a much safer environment for all Americans.

   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 19:40
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Not, they were not in my house - but even if they were, I'd rather sit them down and offer them a cup of coffee and see how I could help them.  Something must have went very wrong for them.
I know I would never give them your welcome "You get them center of mass then two in the head."
 
I didn't know you were so sensitive about a little exaggeration to promote the understanding....
- the room and killerdogs was merely a look into the future - and maybe it's even not exaggerations in five years time - who knows.
But sorry if I offended your dogs....
 
Yes - I'm all for common sense...  that is what I am advocating for in this thread - common sense.


A guy breaks into your house in the middle of the night,  you're going to sit him down and have some coffee with your intruder." Something must have went very wrong for them." Not so much as what should be about to go "very wrong for them"

I think you're trying to press my buttons Nordy. I just can't take your post seriously. I mean no disrespect by that. 

PS. My Doggies forgive you.
 
Perhaps this seems unreal because you have have been so immersed in a culture of fantasy, hubris, and mythology, that actual human behavior appears as abstraction. Things like this do happen in real life, although not so much in the worlds of John Wayne or Tom Clancy.
 
The culture of guns simply inflates the levels of violence and paranoia in society. And unlike in Hollywood, where those shot just lay on the ground and look thoughtful, real life violence leads to tragedy, and divided and mistrustful communities.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 21:10
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

Quote  Be sure of your target. I never have my finger on the trigger until it's time to light em up.
 
 
Quote
And just how many people have you 'lit up'? How many gun duels have you won?

 A darn sight more than you. I never had a ship to hide in.

How many? Doesn't matter if it's more or less than me.
 
What do ships have to do with anything? I was in the army, in peacetime[1], in military intelligence, for what it's worth. And I know all the jokes about military intelligence. 
 
I assume from your response that you haven't in fact, despite what you write, ever actually shot anyone. If you have then I apologise, but I wish you would straight out answer the question, otherwise there's no reason I can see to pay any attention to your claims of expertise.
 
[1] Actually during the Korean War, but as a Russian specialist, I wasn't sent there.
 

I accept your apology.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 21:20
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

I know Panther asked for a balanced view, and I for one am sorry that I cannot contribute to such a discussion. To me it's black or white - up or down. No balanced middelground.

I fail to see what I should do with a gun for selfprotection - chances are, no matter how much I practise, that whoever should threaten me, would be much better with a gun than I am.

Of course there are huge cultural differences and I know it was commonly used and respected to settle differences by gunfights on the streets 150-100 years ago... 
But is was not like portrayed by John Wayne and other "hero's" - it was bloody, gruesome and without dignity for anyone.....
Adding to that - the new territories of the west lacked law and order - every man was his own law - had to fend for himself...

This idea - each man for himself - is still prevailing to this day. The police is out-numbered and out-armed...    civilians have more firearms than any sheriff or policeman... and the criminals even more...
If the police is equipped with a gun, the criminals will carry two - a death spiral with no end.
How can the police be expected to have the upper hand in this scenario - to uphold law and order?
But that is part of the problem too, isn't it - you don't trust them to do it....

The only way to survive if you are threatened by an armed guy who knows what he is doing - be unarmed and friendly.

The city law from 1609 for the town I live in, clearly states who may carry a weapon in public and who may not.
Already then, it was obvious that weapons kill. As it is obvious today, despite the argument "Guns dont kill - people do."
Yes people kill - but with a gun it's so much easier to kill...

When I was young I worked as a bumper in a nightclub - no one would ever expect anyone carrying a gun - but fistfights were not uncommon....  the worst casualty was a black eye.

Panther and Buskins - Of course I respect your culture and I don't think you should throw out your firearms - but I think you should advocate and work for laws to decrease the number of firearms - preferably work for a total ban for anyone but the police and other law enforcement groups.

That way you would work for a much safer environment for all Americans.


Now that's the sort of quality post I have come to expect from you sir. Of course I don't agree with much of it, but it's a fair post. We live in two very different cultures. That I believe is the crux of the matter. You would not want to live in mine, and I would not want to live in yours. Vive la difference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 00:09
Getting back to the theme of this topic, which is about culture of a sort, I wanted to explore an interesting point that a documentarian had put forward. In his documenrary he claimed that Canada had just as high gun ownership as the United States. But homicide rates and gun related crime in the USA is multiple times that in Canada. He made the point that proliferation of guns was not so much the issue, but instead the culture of the USA in embracing guns as a macho and acceptable way of dealing with problems lay at the core of increased gun crime and homicide.

What do you all think?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 02:20
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

I know Panther asked for a balanced view, and I for one am sorry that I cannot contribute to such a discussion. To me it's black or white - up or down. No balanced middelground.

I guess i was probably was asking way too much.

Quote

I fail to see what I should do with a gun for selfprotection - chances are, no matter how much I practise, that whoever should threaten me, would be much better with a gun than I am.

Of course there are huge cultural differences and I know it was commonly used and respected to settle differences by gunfights on the streets 150-100 years ago... 
But is was not like portrayed by John Wayne and other "hero's" - it was bloody, gruesome and without dignity for anyone.....
Adding to that - the new territories of the west lacked law and order - every man was his own law - had to fend for himself...

This idea - each man for himself - is still prevailing to this day. The police is out-numbered and out-armed...    civilians have more firearms than any sheriff or policeman... and the criminals even more...
If the police is equipped with a gun, the criminals will carry two - a death spiral with no end.
How can the police be expected to have the upper hand in this scenario - to uphold law and order?
But that is part of the problem too, isn't it - you don't trust them to do it....

I understand your point of view more than you know Northman. Another aspect that is overlooked, is when a society breaks down even a little. Condi Rice had put it best when she said that had her father not been armed, their family would have been easy targets for violence from the KKK back when she was growing up.

Quote The only way to survive if you are threatened by an armed guy who knows what he is doing - be unarmed and friendly.

I wish i could believe that to be true. I've played that out as well. But for every scenario i play out in my head, the chances of being shot just for the hell of it remains for no other reason, or because you are of the wrong skin color, a fatal misunderstanding or an accident by the perp.

Quote

Panther and Buskins - Of course I respect your culture and I don't think you should throw out your firearms - but I think you should advocate and work for laws to decrease the number of firearms - preferably work for a total ban for anyone but the police and other law enforcement groups.

That way you would work for a much safer environment for all Americans.



I respect your views North. But i guess it boils down to the differences amongst us. My take on what has been transpiring here in the states has gone from being perplexed decades ago to trying fight off the feelings of being down right bitter. I mean the nastiness that seems to prevail is really putting my Christian beliefs to the test. Perception wise, we often here and see rebellious attitudes towards the existing laws already in place. I guess from my point of view, hearing our cultural elites say things like laws are meant to be broken or constantly pushing boundaries in every way with out any due consideration for the feelings  that others have is not exactly a quality that promotes tranquility.

edit: Prior content & follow up responses removed to the appropriate thread

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Edited by Panther - 11 Apr 2012 at 12:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 09:38
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

By the way Northman, since the thread on the issue is closed (If you reopen it we can post this there
 
I have reopened the Martin thread.


Edited by Northman - 11 Apr 2012 at 09:38
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Birddog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 09:53
It might be a bit off track, but something I am reading at the moment.
 
Back in 1942, one of the reasons behind the hostility toward American soldiers and sailors by Australian servicemen was "the tendency of some Americans to draw their knives and guns too freely makes them despised by men who are accustomed to settle their disputes without recourse to arms."
American MP's had troubles with Australian troops because "The carrying of arms, especially firearms, is provicative to most Australians and is apt to be regarded as a direct challange which shouold be taken up as soon as possible." "The Battle of Brisbane: Australia and American at War." Chapter 15. Peter Thompson and Robert Macklin
 
It seems that Australians have been critical of American gun culture for a long time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 11:44
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

I accept your apology.
I said I'd accept your apology if you answered the question. You didn't answer it.
 
So no apology.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 12:18
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Panther- You are not safer surrounded by guns. When you go to the grocery store, or take the kids for a haircut, do you move tactically, infantry style, moving from cover to cover and going to ground, while an armed collegue scans the area? Because if you don't, you are just as much a sitting duck for a determined assailant as you would be unarmed. Any fool can shoot someone- in the back to be safe, in the front if feeling like a gamble. Do you have your hand on your gun, ready to draw whenever you can't see the hands of someone suspicious? Because if you don't, your gun won't protect you. The good guys win shoot-outs on Main St in Hollywood movies, but in real life, the facts are much grittier, and less heroic.
 
What guns do accomplish is to ratchet up the level of violence and lethality. Criminals, estimating that their victims are armed, will be much more likely to shoot first, in order to survive. Millions of guns stored in houses, cars, or what have you mean statistically many more accidents, or resort to lethal measures during domestic disputes, or similar arguements. They also mean many more opportunites for criminals to gain weapons by one of the most frequent ways they do: theft. It constrains police to the use of more lethal force than would otherwise be employed in other countries, as the presence of guns anywhere and everywhere naturally influences their tactics.
 
You say most people are responsible, and they probably are, but in any large population there will be outliers that are not, are not at certain times, or are simply ill-intentioned. In a population of 310 million, this means untold millions in possession of guns that likely should not be. America has many more guns in the hands of individuals than most other advanced countries. It also has many more deaths by firearm. This pretty much tells the story.


great post.  But the situation seems to be a viscious cricle int he US where criminals will estimate that the assailee is armed and may use lethal force regardless.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 12:30
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

By the way Northman, since the thread on the issue is closed (If you reopen it we can post this there
 
I have reopened the Martin thread.


Tanks... mon amiWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 13:39
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Getting back to the theme of this topic, which is about culture of a sort, I wanted to explore an interesting point that a documentarian had put forward. In his documenrary he claimed that Canada had just as high gun ownership as the United States. But homicide rates and gun related crime in the USA is multiple times that in Canada. He made the point that proliferation of guns was not so much the issue, but instead the culture of the USA in embracing guns as a macho and acceptable way of dealing with problems lay at the core of increased gun crime and homicide.

What do you all think?


What documentary was that?

Really don't know what to think of his theory at the moment. hmmm... on ta lighter note, I don't need no gun to feel macho. All i need to do is bare my manly, hairy barrel of a chest and all sorts of people start running to, uh... get out of the room.


Edited by Panther - 11 Apr 2012 at 14:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 13:50
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Getting back to the theme of this topic, which is about culture of a sort, I wanted to explore an interesting point that a documentarian had put forward. In his documenrary he claimed that Canada had just as high gun ownership as the United States. But homicide rates and gun related crime in the USA is multiple times that in Canada. He made the point that proliferation of guns was not so much the issue, but instead the culture of the USA in embracing guns as a macho and acceptable way of dealing with problems lay at the core of increased gun crime and homicide.

What do you all think?


What documentary was that?
Bowling for Columbine (Michael Moore) had a similar theme in that it took into account in particular Canadian gun ownership. But Moore, as I recall, hypothesised that the difference in violence was due to heightened paranoid attitudes in the US - i.e. a general tendency to distrust others (including Federal and local government) leading to a felt need for self-protection that is much less common in other developed countries.
 
Pinning it all on machoism tends to overlook the fact that women feel the need to carry or have accessible guns maybe not just as much, but almost as much, as men.


Edited by gcle2003 - 11 Apr 2012 at 13:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 14:24
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

I accept your apology.
I said I'd accept your apology if you answered the question. You didn't answer it.
 
So no apology.
 
You're trying to b e clever again. It desn't work.

I'm not your uncle, and you're not my nephew. Please stop acting like it. The question is immature and something you would hear from a child. It's been my experience that those who talk about their so called combat experiences, were in fact forklift drivers at Bagram air base. That or some other remf MOS. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 14:35
I'm surprised Canadians can own a firearm. Anytime I have crossed the border on our way to Alaska, every hunting rifle in the truck was sealed, and it better be that way when you get to the border. It could be an attempt to curb poaching or whatever.
Canadians are not Americans. To foreigners it could look as if we are very similar. In many ways we are, and in many ways we are not. Canadian and American cultures are different. The differences can be very subtle. The national personalities of our two countries are very different. In general I like Canadians, and they sure live in a cold but very beautiful country.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 18:41
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

I accept your apology.
I said I'd accept your apology if you answered the question. You didn't answer it.
 
So no apology.
 
You're trying to b e clever again. It desn't work.

I'm not your uncle, and you're not my nephew. Please stop acting like it. The question is immature and something you would hear from a child. It's been my experience that those who talk about their so called combat experiences, were in fact forklift drivers at Bagram air base. That or some other remf MOS. 
 
The question of your actual use of guns against humans, or your observation of these events, is  a reasonable one for this discussion. Many kids like to play with guns, and go to shoot 'em up movies, and they enjoy it because it is an abstraction- it's excitment, vicarious adventure, perhaps an acting out of ancient instincts. Most eventually come to terms with the reality of firearms however, and, with maturity, will take a more balanced viewpoint, one that recognizes the lethal power of guns, and the tragedy that occurs when they are used in real life. Yes, they are necessary in some instances, such as in the hands of the police or military. But the fascination with Rambo like characters fades. It definitely fades for those, in my experience, who have been involved in gun play, and suffered the effects, one way or another. Relating your experience in this area would help us know where you are coming from.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 20:21
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

I accept your apology.
I said I'd accept your apology if you answered the question. You didn't answer it.
 
So no apology.
 
You're trying to b e clever again. It desn't work.

I'm not your uncle, and you're not my nephew. Please stop acting like it. The question is immature and something you would hear from a child.
Possibly. You still haven't answered it.
Quote
It's been my experience that those who talk about their so called combat experiences, were in fact forklift drivers at Bagram air base. That or some other remf MOS. 
I pointed out I had no combat experience so I don't know why you said that. However I agree it's true that lots of people who brag about their combat skills never saw combat either. I presume you've never been in the forces?
 
(Probably just as well I was never in combat. The team of interceptors I was leading once reported three Soviet divisions landing on the Scottish coast, when the correct version was a Soviet army divided into three parts. Luckily of course this was an exercise, or our defensive response would have been somewhat inadequate.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2012 at 22:59
Panther

First, i had not seen any of this in my daily local news, though the case was widely discussed. So, maybe the TV stations here are being careful of possible jury contamination. Obviously CNN has covered it, but I likewise did not hear any of these reports on our local public radio station, which likes the BBC. (Hmm, and the liberals are always denouncing Fox, which I don't see either)

Now, reading what you sent me, Spike has agreed to 'compensate them' for any damages caused. That is not, strictly speaking, a settlement. Sounds to me like he's offered to pay incidentals such as rental car, hotel, travel, etc. occasioned by their having to leave their home for a while. (Quare as to mental suffering, etc)

Thanks for the reply.

 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ramesh V.Naivaruni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2012 at 10:01
I think we are slightly off the time of guns we must be talking about lazer weapon and other super toys. The guns and roses are for the eighties, now people have advanced toys.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 2012 at 12:12
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Getting back to the theme of this topic, which is about culture of a sort, I wanted to explore an interesting point that a documentarian had put forward. In his documenrary he claimed that Canada had just as high gun ownership as the United States. But homicide rates and gun related crime in the USA is multiple times that in Canada. He made the point that proliferation of guns was not so much the issue, but instead the culture of the USA in embracing guns as a macho and acceptable way of dealing with problems lay at the core of increased gun crime and homicide.

What do you all think?


What documentary was that?
Bowling for Columbine (Michael Moore) had a similar theme in that it took into account in particular Canadian gun ownership. But Moore, as I recall, hypothesised that the difference in violence was due to heightened paranoid attitudes in the US - i.e. a general tendency to distrust others (including Federal and local government) leading to a felt need for self-protection that is much less common in other developed countries.
 
Pinning it all on machoism tends to overlook the fact that women feel the need to carry or have accessible guns maybe not just as much, but almost as much, as men.


This is quite correct.

I admit, I didn't want to mention Michael Moore by name for the simple reason that some might dismiss him out of hand without listening to all of his arguments. I am certainly aware of his fabrication of claiming to have written a UN speech with Chavez during a tequila fuelled boozer (which Chavez, being a teetotaller, totally denies). But I was hoping that some of his earlier work, which seems to be a great deal more sensible and have better grounding, might perhaps be assessed on its own merit.

I must say, it made sense to me. Fear of one's government and neighbours is not so much a factor in my own country. And the citizenry generally trust that law enforcement is a government monopoly that is best left to government agents backed by their respective departments. Sure, you get a few hyper people who take things into their own hands now and then, but that isn't considered socially acceptable or within social convention.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2012 at 01:22
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:



This is quite correct.

I admit, I didn't want to mention Michael Moore by name for the simple reason that some might dismiss him out of hand without listening to all of his arguments. I am certainly aware of his fabrication of claiming to have written a UN speech with Chavez during a tequila fuelled boozer (which Chavez, being a teetotaller, totally denies). But I was hoping that some of his earlier work, which seems to be a great deal more sensible and have better grounding, might perhaps be assessed on its own merit.

I must say, it made sense to me. Fear of one's government and neighbours is not so much a factor in my own country. And the citizenry generally trust that law enforcement is a government monopoly that is best left to government agents backed by their respective departments. Sure, you get a few hyper people who take things into their own hands now and then, but that isn't considered socially acceptable or within social convention.


I understand why you didn't mention him and you were right not to do so. I gave him a shot and I can't take anything the man does or says seriously. He could have been more helpful to the discussion of guns in our culture with honesty and balance as a hallmark of his documentaries, no politiking was needed. Instead, he chose the polarizing tactic of playing fast and loose with the facts too fit whatever his agenda was. Won an academy award for his factually challenged false documentary and eye rolls from the groups of people he has openly mocked. Not the way to advance a national discussion. Hell, i have more deep respect for those with opposing view points from me than he ever will in his little itty bitty pinky!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 2014 at 09:22
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

I think it is important to look at the US in a historical context to understand where the gun culture has come from. The need for armed citizens in the early part of the nation's history is readily apparent. Putting food on the table, fighting off hostile natives, defending against overreach of central political power: all perfectly valid reasons to have some citizens armed. But of course times change and we must question the utility and worth of our cultural institutions as every facet of our society evolves.

I think of my own country and ponder the outcome of a reintroduction of automatic weaponry, pistols, shot guns etc. You see, we got rid of all that heavy duty stuff after the horror of the Port Arthur massacre in 1996. I would have been about 10 at the time. That people will murder people is a given. But what was so shocking is that a retard (don't be offended, it's true) could take out nearly 3 dozen people all by himself in a short couple of hours. And so our country gained the dubious accolade of having the largest kil count in a single massacre of any event in peacetime. It was an accolade we would bear for a further decade and a half, until a Norwegian with far higher intellect than our own butcher took out nearly a hundred people.

But anyway, back to my hypothetical. I think with time I have come to recognise a lot of good things in my countrymen. They are some of the most highly educated and well travelled of all people on the planet. Often they have led the world in advancing human rights (e.g given women the vote, ok NZ you got there first, but still). Generally rather law abiding, they also rank at the upper end of the scale for the indices which measure incorruptibility. Surely here we have a people here who can be trusted to purchase a firearm without it needing to be limited in delivery speed or the lengthy bureaucratic red tape of filling out forms and performing background checks and psychological assessments?

But then I remember all the times I have seen perfectly reasonable people turn into monsters under the influence of drugs or alcohol in the blink of an eye. Or barfights where I have seen someone lose their temper and actually attack someone with a glass or bottle (can you imagine if he had only had a concealed firearm on him). Even with all the very upstanding examplars that we have in my society, we will always have the violent and unstable dregs. And they aren't going anywhere.

I don't buy the argument that guns are useful for personal protection. Criminals are cowards by nature and have no honour. A criminal in a gun armed society is not going to give me a chance to draw my concealed weapon. He's going to take me out any way he can so he can access my wallet. If I'm lucky he'll sneak up behind me and have the gun at my head before I'm silly enough to try and take out my pistol. But he might not be in the mood to take chances. Sociopaths (making up 2-4% of the population) don't feel empathy. And for someone who doesn't feel empathy and knows they will not be caught, it simply makes logical sense to kill someone before trying to steal from them. If guns prevented crime we would see lower firearms offences and murder rates in the US than in other countries. Instead, unsurprisingly, the opposite is true:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States#Homicides

Quote Gun-related homicide rates in the United States are twenty to
thirty-five times higher than they are in countries that are
economically and politically similar to it. Higher rates are found in
developing countries and those with political instability


Also, having lots of guns and having a gun culture does not give members of that society who use guns an edge in being safe and in control, IMHO. Strict regulation and examination of prospective gun owners, with safety courses, will do that job adequately enough.





I know, another old post, but Panther hasn't changed his opinion if more recent posts are any indication.

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Edited by toyomotor - 28 Feb 2014 at 09:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2014 at 12:02
Yes - an old thread, but well worth a read...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2014 at 06:57
Originally posted by Birddog Birddog wrote:

It might be a bit off track, but something I am reading at the moment.
 
Back in 1942, one of the reasons behind the hostility toward American soldiers and sailors by Australian servicemen was "the tendency of some Americans to draw their knives and guns too freely makes them despised by men who are accustomed to settle their disputes without recourse to arms."
American MP's had troubles with Australian troops because "The carrying of arms, especially firearms, is provicative to most Australians and is apt to be regarded as a direct challange which shouold be taken up as soon as possible." "The Battle of Brisbane: Australia and American at War." Chapter 15. Peter Thompson and Robert Macklin
 
It seems that Australians have been critical of American gun culture for a long time.
 
From what I've read, I believe that the real reason for the Big Brisbane Brawl was more to do with women than guns. The US servicemen in Australia on R&R were more highly paid than the Australian soldiers, had access to nylon stocking and had flashier uniforms.
 
They openly rubbed the Australian soldiers' noses in their financial superiority and eventually got the result they didn't expect.
 
True, the reliance of US servicemen on guns and knives instead of bare knuckles also gave rise to the Australians decrying the yanks ability to fight man to man.
 
There were many investigations into the cause of the disturbance and many a discussion on how to ease the tensions and avoid a similar event. Besides the obvious effect of the liquor imbibed on the night of the disturbance, the other main contributing factors that seem to have raised the deep-seated frustration amongst the Australian servicemen were:-

- American pay levels compared to the Australians
- smarter American uniforms compared to the Australians
- shops and hotels favouring the well-paid Americans
- Americans pinching their Aussie girls (and in some cases their wives)
- and the Americans' custom of caressing girls in public

Private Norbert Grant was court-marshalled for manslaughter on 27 February 1943 but found not guilty, on the grounds of self-defence. Five Australians were convicted for assault as a result of the "Battle of Brisbane" with one person being jailed for 6 months.

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