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The Culture of the Gun

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    Posted: 07 Apr 2012 at 02:06
The Florida stand your ground law has gotten me to thinking. I liked to focus on gun cultures around the globe. It's history and it's effects on society. In defense of it and it's draw backs. A balanced view if we can possibly achieve that here?

It is no secret that the US has had a unique love affair with guns. From the blunderbuss of four hundred years ago, to the famed Kentucky rifles or the foreign manufactured of British origin the Brown Bess and the Lee Enfield's in the mid to the late 19th century and continuing up to the modern era with the increasing lethal variety. From the AR-15, AK-47, MP-5 to hand held pistols of glocks, colts and barretta's to 12 gauge pumps or single shot shot guns and bolt action rifles. Leading most people too think we are simply insane for allowing all this weaponry to flourish within our borders.

 However, i disagree. There is more responsibility, than most think, among the average American citizen. On a personal level, with some paternal push too become acquainted with it, having been raised in this culture, i realize the terrible power of this weapon in all it's manifestations, and truly respect it's ability to not only protect life, but take it as well. It gives the weaker a strong sense of empowerment against a much more powerful physical adversary, let's say for the sake of the discussion... a granny in 80's against a man in the peak of his life looking to do great bodily harm upon her. Sure, police response is minutes away, but what matters are the seconds that count on whether she is to live beyond that day.

It is a responsibility that i don't take lightly and i view it as the last option i would use in a last resort if the absolute worst is unavoidable: if my family, my life or a strangers well being is threatened by the immediacy of another with a gun. Otherwise, taking another persons life in a threatening situation with a gun in my hands in not an option. Shoot to wound, to incapacitate, would be the most i could bring myself to do if forced to do so, and even then i would be consumed with worry, not for my personal safety and interest, but for theirs. What i am saying is this gun culture has not made me or my friends more violent, but more aware of this weapons power  and when to wield it  and when it is unnecessary to do so.  I have my father to thank for not letting me live in fear of this weapon from an early age.

Now the challenge to our posters is to look at it from a balanced perspective, contrary to a currently held belief. For example, it is obvious i have a positive view of our gun culture. On the flip side, no matter how responsible, no matter the experience... accidents of all kinds will happen, misunderstandings will be common, the ease in which a life can be snuffed out unconscionable and the results will be the same, tragic! It's abuse can be common and the will and the speed to use such a weapon of force among equal physical parties can border on the downright irresponsible. Legislation is thought to curb it's abuse, and in a lot of cases, it does but only among the law abiding. Knowledge in how to handle a gun takes away the fear for the most part, but the main problems that will always remain in a law abiding society are the criminals who know all of this, but it doesn't stop from using and abusing a society's weakness to their advantage. Whether a society fears this weapon or fears the one holding said weapon, the disarmament of a populace has it pro's and con's that have been little explored in our modern world.

Well, this is it for starters...


Edited by Panther - 07 Apr 2012 at 02:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2012 at 03:11
Panther- You are not safer surrounded by guns. When you go to the grocery store, or take the kids for a haircut, do you move tactically, infantry style, moving from cover to cover and going to ground, while an armed collegue scans the area? Because if you don't, you are just as much a sitting duck for a determined assailant as you would be unarmed. Any fool can shoot someone- in the back to be safe, in the front if feeling like a gamble. Do you have your hand on your gun, ready to draw whenever you can't see the hands of someone suspicious? Because if you don't, your gun won't protect you. The good guys win shoot-outs on Main St in Hollywood movies, but in real life, the facts are much grittier, and less heroic.
 
What guns do accomplish is to ratchet up the level of violence and lethality. Criminals, estimating that their victims are armed, will be much more likely to shoot first, in order to survive. Millions of guns stored in houses, cars, or what have you mean statistically many more accidents, or resort to lethal measures during domestic disputes, or similar arguements. They also mean many more opportunites for criminals to gain weapons by one of the most frequent ways they do: theft. It constrains police to the use of more lethal force than would otherwise be employed in other countries, as the presence of guns anywhere and everywhere naturally influences their tactics.
 
You say most people are responsible, and they probably are, but in any large population there will be outliers that are not, are not at certain times, or are simply ill-intentioned. In a population of 310 million, this means untold millions in possession of guns that likely should not be. America has many more guns in the hands of individuals than most other advanced countries. It also has many more deaths by firearm. This pretty much tells the story.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2012 at 09:15
I am (not surprisingly) in total agreement with CV...
But who will pass up an opportunity to say something too....  Wink
 
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

The Florida stand your ground law has gotten me to thinking. I liked to focus on gun cultures around the globe. It's history and it's effects on society. In defense of it and it's draw backs. A balanced view if we can possibly achieve that here?

It is no secret that the US has had a unique love affair with guns. From the blunderbuss of four hundred years ago, to the famed Kentucky rifles or the foreign manufactured of British origin the Brown Bess and the Lee Enfield's in the mid to the late 19th century and continuing up to the modern era with the increasing lethal variety. From the AR-15, AK-47, MP-5 to hand held pistols of glocks, colts and barretta's to 12 gauge pumps or single shot shot guns and bolt action rifles. Leading most people too think we are simply insane for allowing all this weaponry to flourish within our borders.

Indeed - insane with all those weapons and your fellow americans have long lost why it actually is so. 
Two hundred and 50 years ago, when there could be a good reason to cater some states which were more than reluctant to submit a common government, the second amendment was added for the purpose...
Second Amendment - Bearing Arms
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
A Militia to protect a state from it's own government. 
In 2008 the surpreme court ruled that the right to bear arms was unconnected with service in a militia and those arms could be used for personal protection in homes.
The message is clear- we give up - "we and the police cannot protect you - do it yourself".
More food for the escalating paranoia.
 
Quote  However, i disagree. There is more responsibility, than most think, among the average American citizen. On a personal level, with some paternal push too become acquainted with it, having been raised in this culture, i realize the terrible power of this weapon in all it's manifestations, and truly respect it's ability to not only protect life, but take it as well. It gives the weaker a strong sense of empowerment against a much more powerful physical adversary, let's say for the sake of the discussion... a granny in 80's against a man in the peak of his life looking to do great bodily harm upon her. Sure, police response is minutes away, but what matters are the seconds that count on whether she is to live beyond that day.
Why on earth would a simple intruder - a thief in example - kill an old lady and face a possible murder charge to get what he wants from her? Whether he has a gun or not is of no consequence, but if she starts cocking a gun, then he will shoot to protect his own life.
This is not self defence on the old ladies part - it is suicide.

Quote It is a responsibility that i don't take lightly and i view it as the last option i would use in a last resort if the absolute worst is unavoidable: if my family, my life or a strangers well being is threatened by the immediacy of another with a gun. Otherwise, taking another persons life in a threatening situation with a gun in my hands in not an option. Shoot to wound, to incapacitate, would be the most i could bring myself to do if forced to do so, and even then i would be consumed with worry, not for my personal safety and interest, but for theirs. What i am saying is this gun culture has not made me or my friends more violent, but more aware of this weapons power  and when to wield it  and when it is unnecessary to do so.  I have my father to thank for not letting me live in fear of this weapon from an early age.
It's not a question of you being violent or not - it's a question of your own survival...
- "Shoot to wound, incapacitate", you say? 
The intruder will probably know you have a gun, and I can guarantee you, that he won't spend time on speculations as to think about where to hit you - you'll be dead when you start lifting your gun, or at least after you wound him lightly in the left thig... you won't get the next shot in.
 
Quote Now the challenge to our posters is to look at it from a balanced perspective, contrary to a currently held belief. For example, it is obvious i have a positive view of our gun culture. On the flip side, no matter how responsible, no matter the experience... accidents of all kinds will happen, misunderstandings will be common, the ease in which a life can be snuffed out unconscionable and the results will be the same, tragic! It's abuse can be common and the will and the speed to use such a weapon of force among equal physical parties can border on the downright irresponsible. Legislation is thought to curb it's abuse, and in a lot of cases, it does but only among the law abiding. Knowledge in how to handle a gun takes away the fear for the most part, but the main problems that will always remain in a law abiding society are the criminals who know all of this, but it doesn't stop from using and abusing a society's weakness to their advantage. Whether a society fears this weapon or fears the one holding said weapon, the disarmament of a populace has it pro's and con's that have been little explored in our modern world.
Well, this is it for starters...
Sorry Panter, but you won't find my view very balanced.
You yourself lists all the good reasons for not having firearms ad libitum laying around the house...
No legislation will prevent all the tragic accidents or the fatal domestic killings - nor will it prevent crazy people from running amok in schools or elsewhere....
Only no guns can prevent/reduce these incidents.
 
A small time burglar finds a gun in a drawer - next time he is out, it isn't burglary, but armed robbery on a gas-station.
I think the numbers shouts deafening...  
USA has a 10 times higher killing rate with firearms than my country.
 
You value guns over life... - Your choice.
 
~ North


Edited by Northman - 07 Apr 2012 at 09:24
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2012 at 10:08
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

The good guys win shoot-outs on Main St in Hollywood movies,
Even that isn't actually true. In a Hollywood western the 'civilian' who takes on the bad guys usually ends up dead, as in real life. The guy who wins the final shootout isn't a goodie, but an in between figure like Paladin or Shane, or a professional like Will Kane.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2012 at 10:27
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Why on earth would a simple intruder - a thief in example - kill an old lady and face a possible murder charge to get what he wants from her? Whether he has a gun or not is of no consequence, but if she starts cocking a gun, then he will shoot to protect his own life.
This is not self defence on the old ladies part - it is suicide.


Granted, i had this lovely chap in mind, as an example, when i was writing this, The Night Stalker


Quote
It's not a question of you being violent or not - it's a question of your own survival...
- "Shoot to wound, incapacitate", you say? 
The intruder will probably know you have a gun, and I can guarantee you, that he won't spend time on speculations as to think about where to hit you - you'll be dead when you start lifting your gun, or at least after you wound him lightly in the left thig... you won't get the next shot in.
 


As said and probably didn't make clear, if the intruder was armed with a weapon other than a gun, A sword, A bat or a bowie knife it doesn't matter... i wouldn't be so quick to take a life unless my life or another innocent life is threatened by a criminal with a gun. That is just a no brainer.


Quote
Sorry Panter, but you won't find my view very balanced.
You yourself lists all the good reasons for not having firearms ad libitum laying around the house...
No legislation will prevent all the tragic accidents or the fatal domestic killings - nor will it prevent crazy people from running amok in schools or elsewhere....
Only no guns can prevent/reduce these incidents.
 


Actually, i was hoping for an in-depth discussion. A challenge to your views as well as too mine. Yes, in the perfect world of our imaginations, no guns at all would prevent such occurrences. But that wouldn't stop knifing, clubbing, strangling and all other manner of violence, mayhem and murder. In essence, people kill people. We just happened to find another gory way of doing so.  But anyway, the gunpowder genie is out of the bag. So...

Quote
A small time burglar finds a gun in a drawer - next time he is out, it isn't burglary, but armed robbery on a gas-station.
I think the numbers shouts deafening...  
USA has a 10 times higher killing rate with firearms than my country.
 
You value guns over life... - Your choice.
 
~ North


They ain't going to be using no pop gun in the commission of their crimes, they are going to go where ever they can to get the most lethal of weaponry they can. A pop gun from a draw just ain't going to cut it in a gun culture.

Anyways, it is a part of life in some of the states. As you say, it is my choice to be protected with what ever weapons i have. However, it is not up to the victim in having a choice on whether they become another crime statistic. And no, i'm not paranoid, though it sure sounds like it. I just have a different way at looking after my life's insurance policy.Wink

You know what... on second thought, Denmark is sounding a little nicer as a second home.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2012 at 10:50
It's true it's not actually the 'culture of the gun' that is the problem, but the 'culture of the lethal weapon' if I may coin a phrase.
 
The reason the gun becomes the focus seems to be because people for some reason think using a gun is easy. Once upon a time not so long ago the culture of the sword played the same role: people habitually wore swords in the street. But no-one believed that just having a sword made you capable of winning a bout with a more experienced or better trained swordsman.
 
People didn't think "I have a sword - I'm safe". Nowadays they seem to think "I have a gun - I'm safe'. But it's no more true of the gun than it was of the sword.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2012 at 10:53
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

 
People didn't think "I have a sword - I'm safe". Nowadays they seem to think "I have a gun - I'm safe'. But it's no more true of the gun than it was of the sword.


Crap! I know your right. Weapons don't really make a person safe. It's the risk assessment that causes most pause.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2012 at 13:10
I think it is important to look at the US in a historical context to understand where the gun culture has come from. The need for armed citizens in the early part of the nation's history is readily apparent. Putting food on the table, fighting off hostile natives, defending against overreach of central political power: all perfectly valid reasons to have some citizens armed. But of course times change and we must question the utility and worth of our cultural institutions as every facet of our society evolves.

I think of my own country and ponder the outcome of a reintroduction of automatic weaponry, pistols, shot guns etc. You see, we got rid of all that heavy duty stuff after the horror of the Port Arthur massacre in 1996. I would have been about 10 at the time. That people will murder people is a given. But what was so shocking is that a retard (don't be offended, it's true) could take out nearly 3 dozen people all by himself in a short couple of hours. And so our country gained the dubious accolade of having the largest kil count in a single massacre of any event in peacetime. It was an accolade we would bear for a further decade and a half, until a Norwegian with far higher intellect than our own butcher took out nearly a hundred people.

But anyway, back to my hypothetical. I think with time I have come to recognise a lot of good things in my countrymen. They are some of the most highly educated and well travelled of all people on the planet. Often they have led the world in advancing human rights (e.g given women the vote, ok NZ you got there first, but still). Generally rather law abiding, they also rank at the upper end of the scale for the indices which measure incorruptibility. Surely here we have a people here who can be trusted to purchase a firearm without it needing to be limited in delivery speed or the lengthy bureaucratic red tape of filling out forms and performing background checks and psychological assessments?

But then I remember all the times I have seen perfectly reasonable people turn into monsters under the influence of drugs or alcohol in the blink of an eye. Or barfights where I have seen someone lose their temper and actually attack someone with a glass or bottle (can you imagine if he had only had a concealed firearm on him). Even with all the very upstanding examplars that we have in my society, we will always have the violent and unstable dregs. And they aren't going anywhere.

I don't buy the argument that guns are useful for personal protection. Criminals are cowards by nature and have no honour. A criminal in a gun armed society is not going to give me a chance to draw my concealed weapon. He's going to take me out any way he can so he can access my wallet. If I'm lucky he'll sneak up behind me and have the gun at my head before I'm silly enough to try and take out my pistol. But he might not be in the mood to take chances. Sociopaths (making up 2-4% of the population) don't feel empathy. And for someone who doesn't feel empathy and knows they will not be caught, it simply makes logical sense to kill someone before trying to steal from them. If guns prevented crime we would see lower firearms offences and murder rates in the US than in other countries. Instead, unsurprisingly, the opposite is true:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States#Homicides

Quote Gun-related homicide rates in the United States are twenty to thirty-five times higher than they are in countries that are economically and politically similar to it. Higher rates are found in developing countries and those with political instability


Also, having lots of guns and having a gun culture does not give members of that society who use guns an edge in being safe and in control, IMHO. Strict regulation and examination of prospective gun owners, with safety courses, will do that job adequately enough.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2012 at 15:47
Panther, in re your:  "Shoot to wound, to incapacitate, would be the most i could bring myself to do if forced to do so, and even then i would be consumed with worry, not for my personal safety and interest, but for theirs."

If you want to survive this encounter, some advice:   Start pulling that trigger when you pull the gun. Even you fire early, and the first round goes wild, you will find pulling the trigger a second time far easier. If you can get the gun up before that first round goes off, aim for center body mass and pull that trigger twice. THEN you can start with your remorse, worry, guilt, or whatever. You should still be standing. The other guy will be dead, wounded, shooting back, or beating a hasty retreat.

So, never show or pull a gun until you are going to fire it.

Otherwise, I agree with much of Capt V's post.

Constantine: Also a good post, however in re your: "If guns prevented crime we would see lower firearms offences and murder rates in the US than in other countries. Instead, unsurprisingly, the opposite is true..."

First, the new laws also made bang sticks difficult to obtain. A retired SAS Major friend of mine who is into to ocean kayaking in Queensland is quite upset with that.  Apparently, Jaws has lots of kin in Queensland waters.

Second, regarding the quote: Wouldn't including all violent incidents involving any manufactured or improvised weapons offenses, rather than just firearms offenses, give a truer picture?


Edited by lirelou - 07 Apr 2012 at 16:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2012 at 16:30
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

 
People didn't think "I have a sword - I'm safe". Nowadays they seem to think "I have a gun - I'm safe'. But it's no more true of the gun than it was of the sword.


Crap! I know your right. Weapons don't really make a person safe. It's the risk assessment that causes most pause.
 
In how many cases is there a risk assessment, or at least one that is beneficial to the law abiding citizen? Many criminals are in the position they are because of extremely poor judgement, emotional mis-management, psychological illness, distortions in thinking due to drug abuse, or simply a low IQ.
 
Are these folks assessments the ones you want to base your life on, or even for that matter the ones you would like to have determine whether you are going to have a shootout on Main St?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2012 at 03:55
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

I think it is important to look at the US in a historical context to understand where the gun culture has come from. The need for armed citizens in the early part of the nation's history is readily apparent. Putting food on the table, fighting off hostile natives, defending against overreach of central political power: all perfectly valid reasons to have some citizens armed. But of course times change and we must question the utility and worth of our cultural institutions as every facet of our society evolves.


That has been particularly hard for the US. It is simply too ingrained to simply give it up. Up until the 80's and the attempt on Regan's life, the gun was an inviolable institution in the US. Plenty of attitudes have changed towards the gun since then, advocates like Brady or in his name have introduced anti-gun bills. the intent was well meaning but it had quickly become another front in the culture wars here in the US . While i believe the effort was an attempt as reasonable restrictions, accolades of the gun were horrified that any attempt was a contravention of their god given right. Women have their abortion legalized and commoners had their gun rights.

Quote
I think of my own country and ponder the outcome of a reintroduction of automatic weaponry, pistols, shot guns etc. You see, we got rid of all that heavy duty stuff after the horror of the Port Arthur massacre in 1996. I would have been about 10 at the time. That people will murder people is a given. But what was so shocking is that a retard (don't be offended, it's true) could take out nearly 3 dozen people all by himself in a short couple of hours. And so our country gained the dubious accolade of having the largest kil count in a single massacre of any event in peacetime. It was an accolade we would bear for a further decade and a half, until a Norwegian with far higher intellect than our own butcher took out nearly a hundred people.


That was a tragedy and i don't know why Australia has been mocked for such an event. It is exceedingly unfair. Diggers need not be ashamed that such an event tragically unfolded in their country. There are nuts enough in any country to do such a foul deed and i don't think any amount of gun laws will keep the retards from getting their hands on weapons in the age of globalization. Slow them down perhaps, but as the rebels within us say, laws are made to be broken.

Quote
But anyway, back to my hypothetical. I think with time I have come to recognise a lot of good things in my countrymen. They are some of the most highly educated and well travelled of all people on the planet. Often they have led the world in advancing human rights (e.g given women the vote, ok NZ you got there first, but still). Generally rather law abiding, they also rank at the upper end of the scale for the indices which measure incorruptibility. Surely here we have a people here who can be trusted to purchase a firearm without it needing to be limited in delivery speed or the lengthy bureaucratic red tape of filling out forms and performing background checks and psychological assessments?


Indeed they are. They are that as you say and more. And i feel the same way about mine, though they don't get the same level of positive press as most other nationalities. And regretfully but understandably, little sympathy here.

Quote
But then I remember all the times I have seen perfectly reasonable people turn into monsters under the influence of drugs or alcohol in the blink of an eye. Or barfights where I have seen someone lose their temper and actually attack someone with a glass or bottle (can you imagine if he had only had a concealed firearm on him). Even with all the very upstanding examplars that we have in my society, we will always have the violent and unstable dregs. And they aren't going anywhere.


That is true for any society. I think, anger is the more powerful of human emotions to self control.

Quote
I don't buy the argument that guns are useful for personal protection. Criminals are cowards by nature and have no honour. A criminal in a gun armed society is not going to give me a chance to draw my concealed weapon. He's going to take me out any way he can so he can access my wallet. If I'm lucky he'll sneak up behind me and have the gun at my head before I'm silly enough to try and take out my pistol. But he might not be in the mood to take chances. Sociopaths (making up 2-4% of the population) don't feel empathy. And for someone who doesn't feel empathy and knows they will not be caught, it simply makes logical sense to kill someone before trying to steal from them. If guns prevented crime we would see lower firearms offences and murder rates in the US than in other countries. Instead, unsurprisingly, the opposite is true:


No, they don't have honor and are cowards and whether a victim is armed or not, a dead person is so much easier to handle than a live one.


Quote Gun-related homicide rates in the United States are twenty to thirty-five times higher than they are in countries that are economically and politically similar to it. Higher rates are found in developing countries and those with political instability

[/quote]

I don't dismiss your view, i accept it as your belief and will honor it. But, i must say, i've tried arguing statistics once with Graham. I thought i proved a point and a few were impressed, only to realize that only through the efforts of others, it was pointed out to me that i had misinterpreted the numbers. I was kind of shocked at how easy these numbers were too manipulate for my benefit, albeit not intentionally. Since the i have abandoned and tried too stay away from the statistical points as way to argue, in favor of just discussing the issue.

Quote
Also, having lots of guns and having a gun culture does not give members of that society who use guns an edge in being safe and in control, IMHO. Strict regulation and examination of prospective gun owners, with safety courses, will do that job adequately enough.


IMHO, safety is in the eye of the beholder. Indeed, the regulations and tough gun laws are what we have in place now, and some argue it isn't enough.


Edited by Panther - 08 Apr 2012 at 04:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2012 at 04:00
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Panther, in re your:  "Shoot to wound, to incapacitate, would be the most i could bring myself to do if forced to do so, and even then i would be consumed with worry, not for my personal safety and interest, but for theirs."

If you want to survive this encounter, some advice:   Start pulling that trigger when you pull the gun. Even you fire early, and the first round goes wild, you will find pulling the trigger a second time far easier. If you can get the gun up before that first round goes off, aim for center body mass and pull that trigger twice. THEN you can start with your remorse, worry, guilt, or whatever. You should still be standing. The other guy will be dead, wounded, shooting back, or beating a hasty retreat.

So, never show or pull a gun until you are going to fire it.


I'll reiterate what i had said a couple of posts ago to Northman, and put it in bold so there will be no more confusion:

As said and probably didn't make clear, if the intruder was armed with a weapon other than a gun, A sword, A bat or a bowie knife it doesn't matter... i wouldn't be so quick to take a life unless my life or another innocent life is threatened by a criminal with a gun. That is just a no brainer.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2012 at 04:08
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:



In how many cases is there a risk assessment, or at least one that is beneficial to the law abiding citizen?


Nearly every moment we draw breath, CV my friend. Life is a risk at all times. No amount of legislation will change that nor it's strictness will guarantee anything to be an absolute.

Quote
Many criminals are in the position they are because of extremely poor judgement, emotional mis-management, psychological illness, distortions in thinking due to drug abuse, or simply a low IQ.
 
Are these folks assessments the ones you want to base your life on, or even for that matter the ones you would like to have determine whether you are going to have a shootout on Main St?


Do you really think every other American is a drug addict, criminal or an emotionally laden nut job or a numskull with a below average IQ, living their life in the ongoing wild west?
Scratch that. I don't think you need to answer that. I think i already know the answer. I would like to believe otherwise, though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2012 at 04:42
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:



Quote Gun-related homicide rates in the United States are twenty to thirty-five times higher than they are in countries that are economically and politically similar to it. Higher rates are found in developing countries and those with political instability



I don't dismiss your view, i accept it as your belief and will honor it. But, i must say, i've tried arguing statistics once with Graham. I thought i proved a point and a few were impressed, only to realize that only through the efforts of others, it was pointed out to me that i had misinterpreted the numbers. I was kind of shocked at how easy these numbers were too manipulate for my benefit, albeit not intentionally. Since the i have abandoned and tried too stay away from the statistical points as way to argue, in favor of just discussing the issue.

Quote
Also, having lots of guns and having a gun culture does not give members of that society who use guns an edge in being safe and in control, IMHO. Strict regulation and examination of prospective gun owners, with safety courses, will do that job adequately enough.


IMHO, safety is in the eye of the beholder. Indeed, the regulations and tough gun laws are what we have in place now, and some argue it isn't enough.
[/QUOTE]
 
Yes some statistics can be manipulated, but to dismiss all research because of this just throws out the baby with the bathwater. The US is extreme in relation to other modern democracies in this regard. I'm not sure what you consider tough gun laws, but when just about anyone can buy a handgun with the most minimal checks, or in some cases with no checks, and then carry them around to places such as bars, university classrooms, or political meetings, I have to tell you that this is out of step with the rest of the civilized world. This is lenient beyond belief even to countries like Canada, which is not the most strict with gun laws by a long shot. In Canada it is almost impossible to own a handgun, and few do. One could easily go their whole life with never seeing a handgun, outside of the military,police, or in the movies here. The figures provide powerful evidence of gun violence in the US as compared to similar countries. You may feel safer in  a society awash in guns, the great weight of evidence argues against this view.
 
The arguement  that one can carry a gun, and then draw down on the bad guys at just the right time, or scare them off, or shoot to wing 'em, is, again, great material for a Hollywood movie, but a reckless and crazy policy for real life. Take a look at what professionals do. Do they approach suspicious people, Clint Eastwood style, gun in holster, and say- make my day! No, they don`t. They were body armour, work in teams, ensure overwhelming firepower, and have weapons aimed and ready to fire in a microsecond. And still some get injured or killed. How much of your day do  you spend engaged in these tactics......because if you don`t, you`re just a citizen walking down the road with a gun, which may urge a criminal to shoot first, or maybe shoot first just to get your gun, a saleable item in the gun culture.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2012 at 05:11
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:



In how many cases is there a risk assessment, or at least one that is beneficial to the law abiding citizen?


Nearly every moment we draw breath, CV my friend. Life is a risk at all times. No amount of legislation will change that nor it's strictness will guarantee anything to be an absolute.
 
I believe we are mis-communicating Mr P. By "risk" I don't mean the daily risks inherent in life, but the subjective judgement of risk that a potential assailant may make before committing a crime. You made the point that criminals make an assessment, one likely containing logic, enough so that they will take your gun into account. I made the point that in many, many cases the logic invovled in highly faulty, for the reasons listed, or it may be absent all together. This would tend to negate your perceived deterent effect of carrying a gun.
 
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:


Quote
Many criminals are in the position they are because of extremely poor judgement, emotional mis-management, psychological illness, distortions in thinking due to drug abuse, or simply a low IQ.
 
Are these folks assessments the ones you want to base your life on, or even for that matter the ones you would like to have determine whether you are going to have a shootout on Main St?


Do you really think every other American is a drug addict, criminal or an emotionally laden nut job or a numskull with a below average IQ, living their life in the ongoing wild west?
Scratch that. I don't think you need to answer that. I think i already know the answer. I would like to believe otherwise, though.
 
Those whose lives are distorted enough for them to commit violence and crime are usually a very small minority in most cases. But, that's all it takes, especially if they are armed. Look at the case of the "DC Sniper" from a couple of years ago. Two people=mayhem for millions across a large urban area.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2012 at 06:35
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

 
Yes some statistics can be manipulated, but to dismiss all research because of this just throws out the baby with the bathwater.


Indeed. Somewhere amongst all the easily twisted  figures is the truth. As you said and i would like to clarify, unfortunately the political abuse of this tool can't go out with the bath water.

Quote
The US is extreme in relation to other modern democracies in this regard. I'm not sure what you consider tough gun laws, but when just about anyone can buy a handgun with the most minimal checks, or in some cases with no checks, and then carry them around to places such as bars, university classrooms, or political meetings, I have to tell you that this is out of step with the rest of the civilized world.


I think you may be misinformed. The US isn't Canada. Gun Laws vary by state and are independent of federal gun laws. I think this may stem from the old psychology of the US that at one time did not favor centralization and the severe resistance to any growth of federal power.

Quote
This is lenient beyond belief even to countries like Canada, which is not the most strict with gun laws by a long shot. In Canada it is almost impossible to own a handgun, and few do. One could easily go their whole life with never seeing a handgun, outside of the military,police, or in the movies here. The figures provide powerful evidence of gun violence in the US as compared to similar countries. You may feel safer in  a society awash in guns, the great weight of evidence argues against this view.
 


That sounds like a generalization. How do we know that to be a fact? I could just as easily say the same thing for many areas of the US and it would be no less true. Get this, my wife is a born and bred Texan and she hasn't seen a gun in nearly four decades.

Plus the figures, which i am not in argument with, can be too easily manipulated and used to further anyone's agenda. It is the question of a important matter as far as i'm concerned... in whom can i trust! One side is dead set in keeping this country armed & dangerous and the other side is just as hell bent in restraining or disarming their opposites. I trust you can understand why i am a bit leery when anyone starts trotting out figures. It is not to suggest others here have a agenda. I believe their view points to be beneficial.

Further, i think there are other sociological factors at work other than gun toting Americans shooting each other up at the local saloon. There doesn't seem to be any discussion here in the states that i am aware of, for black on black violence? Bringing it up seems to be a near impossibility without being called a racist. Being labeled as such seem to be the end of the discussion as well as many a long term friendships And sadly, my black fellow country men are killing themselves off for their gangs and we haven't yet discovered how to have an adult  discussion on it.

Quote
The arguement  that one can carry a gun, and then draw down on the bad guys at just the right time, or scare them off, or shoot to wing 'em, is, again, great material for a Hollywood movie, but a reckless and crazy policy for real life.


Good lord! Is anyone listening!? How in the hell did Hollywood come into this? Since when is planning ahead in case of an emergency a bad thing?

Quote
Take a look at what professionals do. Do they approach suspicious people, Clint Eastwood style, gun in holster, and say- make my day! No, they don`t. They were body armour, work in teams, ensure overwhelming firepower, and have weapons aimed and ready to fire in a microsecond. And still some get injured or killed. How much of your day do  you spend engaged in these tactics......because if you don`t, you`re just a citizen walking down the road with a gun, which may urge a criminal to shoot first, or maybe shoot first just to get your gun, a saleable item in the gun culture.


You must really think i am that naive? I may be missing something in your argument here, but for the time being, if you would please excuse me, but i need to go find a wall to bang my head against...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2012 at 06:42
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

 I believe we are mis-communicating Mr P. By "risk" I don't mean the daily risks inherent in life, but the subjective judgement of risk that a potential assailant may make before committing a crime. You made the point that criminals make an assessment, one likely containing logic, enough so that they will take your gun into account. I made the point that in many, many cases the logic invovled in highly faulty, for the reasons listed, or it may be absent all together. This would tend to negate your perceived deterent effect of carrying a gun.
 


Well your looking at it from the criminals side. Your assuming a potential victim isn't aware of their surroundings or assessing the risks.

Quote
 Those whose lives are distorted enough for them to commit violence and crime are usually a very small minority in most cases. But, that's all it takes, especially if they are armed. Look at the case of the "DC Sniper" from a couple of years ago. Two people=mayhem for millions across a large urban area.


Actually, i don't think the DC sniper case is a good example of our gun culture run amok. I think it is a good example of terrorists tactics though. Perhaps, in all fairness to you and a disadvantage to me, Columbine would be better for the interests of the discussion and more to your point?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2012 at 18:00
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

 
Yes some statistics can be manipulated, but to dismiss all research because of this just throws out the baby with the bathwater.


Indeed. Somewhere amongst all the easily twisted  figures is the truth. As you said and i would like to clarify, unfortunately the political abuse of this tool can't go out with the bath water.

Quote
The US is extreme in relation to other modern democracies in this regard. I'm not sure what you consider tough gun laws, but when just about anyone can buy a handgun with the most minimal checks, or in some cases with no checks, and then carry them around to places such as bars, university classrooms, or political meetings, I have to tell you that this is out of step with the rest of the civilized world.


I think you may be misinformed. The US isn't Canada. Gun Laws vary by state and are independent of federal gun laws. I think this may stem from the old psychology of the US that at one time did not favor centralization and the severe resistance to any growth of federal power.

Quote
This is lenient beyond belief even to countries like Canada, which is not the most strict with gun laws by a long shot. In Canada it is almost impossible to own a handgun, and few do. One could easily go their whole life with never seeing a handgun, outside of the military,police, or in the movies here. The figures provide powerful evidence of gun violence in the US as compared to similar countries. You may feel safer in  a society awash in guns, the great weight of evidence argues against this view.
 


That sounds like a generalization. How do we know that to be a fact? I could just as easily say the same thing for many areas of the US and it would be no less true. Get this, my wife is a born and bred Texan and she hasn't seen a gun in nearly four decades.

Plus the figures, which i am not in argument with, can be too easily manipulated and used to further anyone's agenda. It is the question of a important matter as far as i'm concerned... in whom can i trust! One side is dead set in keeping this country armed & dangerous and the other side is just as hell bent in restraining or disarming their opposites. I trust you can understand why i am a bit leery when anyone starts trotting out figures. It is not to suggest others here have a agenda. I believe their view points to be beneficial.

Further, i think there are other sociological factors at work other than gun toting Americans shooting each other up at the local saloon. There doesn't seem to be any discussion here in the states that i am aware of, for black on black violence? Bringing it up seems to be a near impossibility without being called a racist. Being labeled as such seem to be the end of the discussion as well as many a long term friendships And sadly, my black fellow country men are killing themselves off for their gangs and we haven't yet discovered how to have an adult  discussion on it.
 
How many metal detectors are installed at state boundaries? I'm aware that gun laws vary from state to state, but that doesn't alter the fact that laws are very liberal, by world standards, in many states, and further, it is easy to obtain a gun and then cross into another state.
 
You say you don't want to believe figures, but this hobbles the discussion. In comparison to the US, the chance of being a victim of gun violence is miniscle in Canada, even less in Europe, and essentially non-existent in Japan. The US, in comparison to these countries, is awash in guns. If it were me, I would ask myself- if a mountain of evidence existed, and I kept trying to find some obscure statistical arguement to disprove it, if I was exhibiting  bias to some extent.
 
I do agree that the numbers alone don't tell the story, although that is the main issue. The US has revelled in the gun culture, and the image of the cowboy on Main St, facing down the bad guys, for some time. This has varied through the years, and has waxed towards the extreme in recent times. This has been taken up by Hollywood, and unfortunately completed the circle of art imitating life- and life imitating art. Today the myth of the independent cowboy with a gun is riding high, probably not least because it fits well into the general image the "one percent" as they have recently been dubbed, would like to put out. Little or no government suits their aims quite well, as it means also no taxes or constraints on their business practices. The idea of citizens independent of anything furthers their aims, and fits nicely with some long standing national mythology. This sort of theme is picked up by radical voices on the right, and goes into the push towards a libertarian society in which class division is extreme.
 
As for black violence, I have to agree to an extent that blacks are overrepresented in this issue. I'd say though that this is not so much about race, as it is about being in a group disfavoured, or at the very least, perceived to be disfavoured, by the prevailing majority. This sort of thing can easily cross racial lines, with for example, the IRA in Ireland, or the FLQ in Canada. Animosity can run rampant when the family sits down to dinner, and one is consigned to standing outside, and watching through the window.
 
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:


Quote
The arguement  that one can carry a gun, and then draw down on the bad guys at just the right time, or scare them off, or shoot to wing 'em, is, again, great material for a Hollywood movie, but a reckless and crazy policy for real life.


Good lord! Is anyone listening!? How in the hell did Hollywood come into this? Since when is planning ahead in case of an emergency a bad thing?

Quote
Take a look at what professionals do. Do they approach suspicious people, Clint Eastwood style, gun in holster, and say- make my day! No, they don`t. They were body armour, work in teams, ensure overwhelming firepower, and have weapons aimed and ready to fire in a microsecond. And still some get injured or killed. How much of your day do  you spend engaged in these tactics......because if you don`t, you`re just a citizen walking down the road with a gun, which may urge a criminal to shoot first, or maybe shoot first just to get your gun, a saleable item in the gun culture.


You must really think i am that naive? I may be missing something in your argument here, but for the time being, if you would please excuse me, but i need to go find a wall to bang my head against...
 
The reality of gun use is not pretty. It consists of bits of anatomy flying about, pain and suffering, and lives ruined or snuffed out althogether. Popular entertainment tends to not dwell on this, as it is not good for box office receipts.
 
Your posts seem to want to dismiss the idea that you could be a target, indeed an easy target, for those with ill intent, even though you are carrying a gun. All I can say to this is ask someone who actually has been the recipient of such ill intent how easy it is the be injured or killed. Just saying you are aware is almost meaningless. Are you aware of what is going on behind you at all times? On a crowded street? In the cars coming up beside you at a traffic light? That black fellow with the bulge in his coat- what is he going to do after he walks past you? That sort of "awareness" you suggest would not only promote an hysterically paranoid society, if it ever really came to pass, but moreover would still not ensure safety. The DC area, I think it safe to say, had a heightened level of "awareness" while the sniper was doing his thing. Did that help his victims? If you are saying that you can control this sort of situation due to your reading of others faces, and maintaining a hyperawareness of your surroundings, and other similar tactics, then you are merely acting out an scenerio that is a mix of imagery from popular entertainment, and cultural mythology.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2012 at 21:55

Coming from a culture that doesn't recognise the manhood of a person who doesn't own a gun I think I have something to say here.

 
The problems that in the US doesn't come from guns per se. It has to do with the general culture and legal system that prevails. Even in the US outlaws guns completely crime will still be rampant and people will kill other people using other weapons whether they were knives or bows. 
 
I mean the US is still a largely rural country where nearly 1/3rd of its current population were born in rural or very small urban areas in the middle of rural states. Urbanised States in the US have much stricter gun laws than rural states even if those rural states were liberal. Case in point the most democratic state right now is Vermont which has a semi-socialist healthcare system yet has the most liveral gun laws in the US and they ain't about to change. On the other hand Mass., a heavily urbanised democratic state has among the strictest gun laws in the US.
 
This rural segment of the US is very conservative when it comes to guns and carried and perserved the culture even when it moved to the city.
 
The second problem with guns in the US is law enforcement. Lets be honest. Law enforcement in the US is the worst in all modern industrialised nations. Basically if you are not rich you won't be protected and in many rural areas as well as inner city neighbourhooods there is no police or sherrif department. The Justice system is just as bad with criminals often times escape from serious crimes unscathed. Not to mentioned the existence of organised crime. Such insecurity is a powerfull reason why people arm up.
 
What is the problem with American and guns? Well its laws that allow some extremely unreasonable things that are specifically desinged by the gun lobby to increase arms sales. With the Florida law (which exists in 24 other states) duelling is now defacto legal. The winner will go free and the loser probably will face jail time if he survives. Believe me if I was in Florida and was the most ardent anti-gun activist I would buy a Beretta ASAP because according to this law, anyone who doesn't like me can shoot me by just "standing his ground" and not yielding to my demands to move. There is also concealed carry, guns in bars, guns on campus, guns in private establishments that prohibits them like churches. This is insanity.
 
Worse still gun control laws that are perfectly logical like banning military grade semi-automatic weapons, putting limits on magazine sizes and the such are branded by the gun lobby as an assault on liberty and the right to own guns.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2012 at 00:38
Originally posted by lirelo lirelo wrote:

First, the new laws also made bang sticks difficult to obtain. A retired SAS Major friend of mine who is into to ocean kayaking in Queensland is quite upset with that.  Apparently, Jaws has lots of kin in Queensland waters.


Hi lirelou, I was not aware that this device had similar restrictions placed upon it. Yes we certainly do have troubles with the cartilage spined prowler of the deep in our waters. If these devices are not so hazardous to terrestrial life then perhaps the laws could use some adjustment to allow their usage.

Quote Second, regarding the quote: Wouldn't including all violent incidents involving any manufactured or improvised weapons offenses, rather than just firearms offenses, give a truer picture?


Yes, that is fair. So returning to homicide (and I hate to use wiki but it is ever so convenient), we have a comparison of 1.3 homicides per 100,000 people per year for a country like Australia (which in some ways is culturally, politically and economically more similar to the US than many other OECD nations), with the US experiencing 5 homicides per 100,000 people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

So essentially it's a ratio of about 1:4. Clearly while people in Australia tend to murder eachother more often with weapons other than firearms, there is still a much increased proportional murder rate in the USA.

In the interests of fairness we also need to factor in other independent variables. The US is more ethnically heterogenous. The US, from what I can gather, has more of an 'honour culture' - where grudges are held and slights demand satisfaction - this especially seems to be so in certain US ethnic minority groups. And I am certain the hardline war on drugs, coupled with the involvement of cross border criminal gangs, is in itself a great motivator to kill other people. A good researcher will take into account all of these differences when comparing the two countries, controlling for each independent variable, and so be left with only the pure effect of the independent variable (widespread gun possession) with the dependent variable (homicide rate).

My suspicion is that even with the aforementioned variables controlled for, the proliferation of firearms among civilians still has a strong effect on increasing the homicide rate.





Edited by Constantine XI - 09 Apr 2012 at 00:40
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Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

That has been particularly hard for the US. It is simply too ingrained to simply give it up. Up until the 80's and the attempt on Regan's life, the gun was an inviolable institution in the US. Plenty of attitudes have changed towards the gun since then, advocates like Brady or in his name have introduced anti-gun bills. the intent was well meaning but it had quickly become another front in the culture wars here in the US . While i believe the effort was an attempt as reasonable restrictions, accolades of the gun were horrified that any attempt was a contravention of their god given right. Women have their abortion legalized and commoners had their gun rights.


Then those people need to be told to study their history. Once upon a time it was perfectly legal in the US to engage in a duel with pistols. This was simply how slights upon one's honour were settled. Frequently, both sides would fire at eachother, neither registering a hit, and honour would have been satisfied.

But guns changed. They became more accurate, had a longer rang and their power of impact and penetration increased. In the 17th century a duel with guns rarely resulted in death: the weapons typically were not powerful or accurate enough. By Alexander Hamilton's time, things were clearly changing. And so with the change in technology came a change in the law. Duels were no longer an appropriate way to settle one's differences.

Likewise, firearms of today are vastly more powerful than the muzzle loading devices of George Washington's time. And the reasons for which they were introduced, such as fighting off the King of England, putting food on the table, and providing an effective militia force to protect and advance the frontier, are now also just about completely obsolete. Traditions are all well and good, I respect that. But when traditions serve no utility, and inevitably lead to the deaths of thousands every year, they may well be dispensed of.

Quote That was a tragedy and i don't know why Australia has been mocked for such an event. It is exceedingly unfair. Diggers need not be ashamed that such an event tragically unfolded in their country. There are nuts enough in any country to do such a foul deed and i don't think any amount of gun laws will keep the retards from getting their hands on weapons in the age of globalization. Slow them down perhaps, but as the rebels within us say, laws are made to be broken.


Australia was mocked? That would be the first I have heard of it. From my recollection there was nothing but an outpouring of sympathy from others around the world.

The reason I mention Martin Bryant is to illustrate something very fundamental to the point of firearm control: there is no way that an individual like that could have killed 35 people and maimed half as many had he not had access to a semi-automatic weapon. No way. Intellectually he was stunted, physically he was a runt. I don't doubt that he could have murdered people if he really wanted to, with a knife or sword. But to kill 35 people in two hours, and maim half as many?

The availability of semi-automatic weaponry vastly increased the scale of damage he was able to inflict. And in this case, scale = human life.

Quote Indeed they are. They are that as you say and more. And i feel the same way about mine, though they don't get the same level of positive press as most other nationalities. And regretfully but understandably, little sympathy here.


Quote That is true for any society. I think, anger is the more powerful of human emotions to self control.


My point here is that even in some of the most responsible societies, you still get the dickhead factor. That tiny percentage of the population who don't deserve the same rights and freedoms as everybody else because they will always abuse them and leave everybody else to pick up the pieces. It's not so bad when they OD on drugs or become alcoholics. They are usually quite managable and can be given medical care. And when they do harm, it is usually to themselves (though I still feel for the kids born to these people).

But extending the freedom to possess military grade weapons to this segment of society is something I object to because I know that the dickhead factor will go from being a danger only to themselves to being a danger to wider society.

Please excuse my language here but this is simply the terminology which I consider most fitting.

Quote No, they don't have honor and are cowards and whether a victim is armed or not, a dead person is so much easier to handle than a live one.


And it is far easier to make sure the person you rob is dead rather than alive if you have a gun. Especially if you are a bit of a runt. It is also a much safer bet to snipe your victim using cover and the element of surprise. Something much harder to do with a knife/cricket bat/beer bottle than a firearm.

Quote I don't dismiss your view, i accept it as your belief and will honor it. But, i must say, i've tried arguing statistics once with Graham. I thought i proved a point and a few were impressed, only to realize that only through the efforts of others, it was pointed out to me that i had misinterpreted the numbers. I was kind of shocked at how easy these numbers were too manipulate for my benefit, albeit not intentionally. Since the i have abandoned and tried too stay away from the statistical points as way to argue, in favor of just discussing the issue.


I wasn't entirely fair with my stats, because Australians naturally are more inclined to kill eachother with devices other than firearms if they really have their heart set on committing a murder. The Aussie homicide rate is not 1/30th of the American. My reply to lirelou gives a fairer picture. Instead we are looking at a homicide rate in the US which is approx 4 times that of Australia. Despite other factors which must influence that increase, I daresay that firearm proliferation amongst civilians still plays a role in elevating the homicide rate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2012 at 18:04
Panther, you will never get them to understand. It's like the Electoral College and NFL rules. They will never get it. You will find that those most opposed to our freedoms come from countries that give them no choice on gun ownership. I have to differ with you on your response to an intruder. You get them center of mass then two in the head. A wounded crackhead is as dangerous as a Kodiak Griz with cubs. Be sure of your target. I never have my finger on the trigger until it's time to light em up. I find the best alert system are my Dogs. We have Anatolian Shepards and they are incredibly protective and territorial. I don't care what an intruder has or has not in his hand. He is a threat to me and mine and will be given no slack by me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2012 at 18:48
So your idea of self protection is a huge arsenal of guns and killerdogs  - to protect yourself in your home?
And if you hear noise at night, you grab your gun?
All right - we know crime escalate - and your next step would be a ten feet high barbed-wire fence around your homestead, preferably electrified and of course with security cams on every pole on the perimeter connected to the command central 20 feet under ground.
Oh oh oh - you already have that???
 
Long live the freedom you enjoy and treasure so highly behind all your defence systems - Land of the free...
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2012 at 18:54
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

So your idea of self protection is a huge arsenal of guns and killerdogs  - to protect yourself in your home?
And if you hear noise at night, you grab your gun?
All right - we know crime escalate - and your next step would be a ten feet high barbed-wire fence around your homestead, preferably electrified and of course with security cams on every pole on the perimeter connected to the command central 20 feet under ground.
Oh oh oh - you already have that???
 
Long live the freedom you enjoy and treasure so highly behind all your defence systems - Land of the free...
 

  If you're happy Northman (despite your twisted conclusions) Then I'm happy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2012 at 19:08
I'm not twisted at all - nor are my conclusions...
 
 
Let me relay to you how I have handled a "situation"...  I could tell of many cases, but I'm sure you get the idea...
 
At our beachhouse we usually have a huge pile of wood and it was obvious that the young groups on the neighboring public beach "borrowed" some from our piles now and then for their bonfires..
A saturday night when I saw a good part missing I got tired of it, bought two cases of beer and drove my car right up to their fire.
 
I told them - you have borrowed some of my wood, and I don't like that, but you are not the only ones doing it.  Here is some beer for you if you will keep an eye on my wood, and if you need wood, come over lets talk about it - you can cut some trees for me.
Obviously, I never experienced missing wood again - nor did they come to work for me cutting tree's....
 
What do you think would have happened if I had come charging with any weapon?
 
Sometimes using your head is better than using a gun...
 
 
 
 
   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2012 at 19:13
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

I'm not twisted at all - nor are my conclusions...
 
 
Let me relay to you how I have handled a "situation"...  I could tell of many cases, but I'm sure you get the idea...
 
At our beachhouse we usually have a huge pile of wood and it was obvious that the young groups on the neighboring public beach "borrowed" some from our piles now and then for their bonfires..
A saturday night when I saw a good part missing I got tired of it, bought two cases of beer and drove my car right up to their fire.
 
I told them - you have borrowed some of my wood, and I don't like that, but you are not the only ones doing it.  Here is some beer for you if you will keep an eye on my wood, and if you need wood, come over lets talk about it - you can cut some trees for me.
Obviously, I never experienced missing wood again - nor did they come to work for me cutting tree's....
 
What do you think would have happened if I had come charging with any weapon?
 
Sometimes using your head is better than using a gun...
 
 
 
 

It's called common sense. If I shot a guy on the beach for stealing my cold drinks,....guess what?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2012 at 19:15
That's some beach BTW. You need a fire to keep your butts warm. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2012 at 20:55
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

Panther, you will never get them to understand. It's like the Electoral College and NFL rules. They will never get it. You will find that those most opposed to our freedoms come from countries that give them no choice on gun ownership. I have to differ with you on your response to an intruder. You get them center of mass then two in the head. A wounded crackhead is as dangerous as a Kodiak Griz with cubs. Be sure of your target. I never have my finger on the trigger until it's time to light em up. I find the best alert system are my Dogs. We have Anatolian Shepards and they are incredibly protective and territorial. I don't care what an intruder has or has not in his hand. He is a threat to me and mine and will be given no slack by me.
 
Far from being free by hiding behind an arsenal of weapons, guard dogs, and who knows what else, the American fixation on guns is, IMO, a symptom of a society under stress.
 
There is a dissonance here when flag waving and statements of patriotism abound, yet individuals are ready to draw down on and shoot any fellow citizen that they see as a threat, and that seems to include a large number of categories.
 
There is also a broad statement made when adults use terms like packing heat, and lighting them up. It strongly suggests a dumbing down of society, a devaluation of education, a retreat to a more adolescent viewpoint, and a bluring of the line between real life and the fantasy seen in movies.
 
Ronald Reagan was perhaps the foremost symbol of this transformation. Americans elected as president someone who, in fantasy, was the most admirable person, but in real life was rather clueless, at least in relation to the requirements of the job he took on.
 
It is tempting to retreat to fantasy in times of stress. Dealing with the real issues is a more functional technique though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2012 at 21:31
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

I'm not twisted at all - nor are my conclusions...
 
 
Let me relay to you how I have handled a "situation"...  I could tell of many cases, but I'm sure you get the idea...
 
At our beachhouse we usually have a huge pile of wood and it was obvious that the young groups on the neighboring public beach "borrowed" some from our piles now and then for their bonfires..
A saturday night when I saw a good part missing I got tired of it, bought two cases of beer and drove my car right up to their fire.
 
I told them - you have borrowed some of my wood, and I don't like that, but you are not the only ones doing it.  Here is some beer for you if you will keep an eye on my wood, and if you need wood, come over lets talk about it - you can cut some trees for me.
Obviously, I never experienced missing wood again - nor did they come to work for me cutting tree's....
 
What do you think would have happened if I had come charging with any weapon?
 
Sometimes using your head is better than using a gun...
  

It's called common sense. If I shot a guy on the beach for stealing my cold drinks,....guess what?
 
My beachhouse is my home as well as this one....   is there a difference depending of the address?
....or aren't you so sure anymore?
 
 
 
 
 
   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 00:47
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

I'm not twisted at all - nor are my conclusions...
 
 
Let me relay to you how I have handled a "situation"...  I could tell of many cases, but I'm sure you get the idea...
 
At our beachhouse we usually have a huge pile of wood and it was obvious that the young groups on the neighboring public beach "borrowed" some from our piles now and then for their bonfires..
A saturday night when I saw a good part missing I got tired of it, bought two cases of beer and drove my car right up to their fire.
 
I told them - you have borrowed some of my wood, and I don't like that, but you are not the only ones doing it.  Here is some beer for you if you will keep an eye on my wood, and if you need wood, come over lets talk about it - you can cut some trees for me.
Obviously, I never experienced missing wood again - nor did they come to work for me cutting tree's....
 
What do you think would have happened if I had come charging with any weapon?
 
Sometimes using your head is better than using a gun...
  

It's called common sense. If I shot a guy on the beach for stealing my cold drinks,....guess what?
 
My beachhouse is my home as well as this one....   is there a difference depending of the address?
....or aren't you so sure anymore?
 


They were not in your house, and you were not under threat. Northman please quit adding luggage to your posts sir. I don't need things like "or aren't you so sure anymore?" or killer dogs and a sub surface safe room, or words to that effect. I never called you twisted, but most of all. Don't talk bad about my dogs Shocked 

  All we are talking about is plain old common sense. If I shot a guy on the beach for stealing stuff like firewood from me. I'm headed for the slammer, and quick. If he approached me with a weapon and I defended myself, that's a different set of circumstances. Don't you agree?


Edited by Buckskins - 10 Apr 2012 at 01:18
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