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South Africa to follow Zimbabwe?

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    Posted: 10 Mar 2018 at 16:07
Recent media reports claim that gangs of black people in South Africa are forcing the white owners off their properties, as part of a movement to "de-white" the country. It appears that the South African government have little interest in stopping them.

If this continues, South Africa will quickly follow Zimbabwe, once a thriving prosperous country, down the financial drain.

From http://theconversation.com/zimbabwes-financial-system-is-living-on-borrowed-time-and-borrowed-money-86159
Quote The rot goes back to the early 2000’s. ZANU-PF profligacy had been fuelled by acontinuous cycle of simply printing more money, and resultant  runaway inflation. Mega-inflation meant that ordinary people lost their pensions and whatever savings they had, as the Zimbabwe dollar lost its value and people resorted to barter or the use of other currencies.

This was a period when, under Mugabe's leadership, white settlers, well established in the country and prospering were terrorised by armed black gangs and either murdered or forced to flee the country, leaving all of their possessions behind them. The locals who took over the vacated land had no idea how to run the properties, and they lay fallow.

In Zimbabwe, it isn't only the farming sector that's gone bust, eviction or murder of white people has had a detrimental effect on all of the industries.

Quote Yet ZANU-PF faced major problems. Above all, “dollarisation” meant that the cost of Zimbabwe’s exports on international markets was high. Worse, the dramatic collapse in agricultural production since the early 2000s (following the appropriation of white farms) alongside the decimation of the country’s manufacturing industries meant that there was relatively little to export anyway. Tobacco production has recovered a little, but the quality is less than it used to be, so returns are relatively less.

Meanwhile government insistence that mines should be 51% Zimbabwean owned has done nothing to entice inward investment or boost exports.

Will the world stand by and watch this happen-AGAIN?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2018 at 01:48
The world did stuff when Zimbabwe were persecuting the whites, boycott and so forth, it was not just fiscal mismanagement that resulted in 4 trillion dollar notes.  The world does not just stand by.  But if you want more instantaneous result, I am sure you could get an airstrike, or a command raid or some such "action."  On the other hand, if you want positive, creative action, you probably should think about it, and understand the situation better.  Putting it up here on the forum does make it public (sort of), it is a step.

Stop wringing your hands, saying "we got to do something!" and realize that people and nations are doing something.  Maybe you don't like what they're doing, but that's just instant gratification speaking for you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2018 at 10:18
Franciscosan

Don't presume to patronise me on this issue.Angry

If you have proof that action is being taken to curb the anti-white violence in South Africa, or that white settlers, industrialists etc aren't being victimised, provide it!

Quote  But if you want more instantaneous result, I am sure you could get an airstrike, or a command raid or some such "action."  On the other hand, if you want positive, creative action, you probably should think about it, and understand the situation better. 

I'd venture to say, based on experience of your posts on a variety of topics, that you have no real knowledge of what's going on in South Africa, nor what is happening in neighbouring ex-colonies.

As is often your wont, you twist what has been written in posts, and then try to belittle the writer.

Quote Stop wringing your hands, saying "we got to do something!" and realize that people and nations are doing something.  Maybe you don't like what they're doing, but that's just instant gratification speaking for you.

Much of your post is mudslinging at me rather than addressing the post. Obviously it's beyond your capability.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2018 at 14:39
Awful & complicated situation in South Africa. Add to that fake news, which is rampantand most of us are baffled. 
South African Parliament Voted to take the farms of white people and not compensate them. If I'm a white farmer, it's a horrible but very clear message. I see it's affecting Australian families. 

How can they stay in South Africa now? Why do they want to? Investments and land are never coming back and it's open season on whitey, everywhere. No one will help white South Africans, I expect the world to do nothing.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 00:15
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Awful & complicated situation in South Africa. Add to that fake news, which is rampantand most of us are baffled. 
South African Parliament Voted to take the farms of white people and not compensate them. If I'm a white farmer, it's a horrible but very clear message. I see it's affecting Australian families. 

How can they stay in South Africa now? Why do they want to? Investments and land are never coming back and it's open season on whitey, everywhere. No one will help white South Africans, I expect the world to do nothing.



WOW!! I didn't know that expropriation of land had become official government policy in South Africa.

This being the case, I see South Africa going the same way as Zimbabwe and other ex-colonies, down the drain.

And what of the white people being driven off land they have worked for several hundred years-no compensation so they'll have to cut and run, IF they can get their money out of the South African banks. I suppose that could be the next step, freeze all assets owned by white people.

I'm reminded of an expression that you'll know well, "Forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do."


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 20:50
There is a reaction, that reaction may be people getting out of the country, leaving South Africa.  That reaction may be a chilling of relations between Western powers and South Africa.  Eventually, there may be boycotts from the West, although the West is very sensitive to being called "colonial."  There are media reactions to the events, in time foreign countries will respond to media reactions, and formulate policies in response to the events in South Africa.  This is all in the process of happening, so I am not sure what exactly you, toyomotor, expect people to _do_.

My local coffeehouse is owned by a family of former (white) South Africans, they got out, and have a nice life these days.  The son is very happy that Zuma got canned.  But, still they saw the writing on the wall, and got out.  Of course, in America, we too have people who believe others should be convicted for "the crimes of their ancestors" real or imagined.  It is a convenient excuse when confiscating property.  
That is what I see some people _using_ government for.  How are we going to stop the South African government from doing so, when people in our own societies believe that that is not only acceptable, but the _only_ thing acceptable?

They know very well what they do, it is their turn to pillage the system, and they are pillaging the system.  They're doing lest someone else get there first.  I am not sure what one should expect from a one party state, which is what the ANC has been since the end of apartheid.  They seem to be lapsing into tyranny of the majority, which in some respects is better (and some worse), than the old tyranny of the minority.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2018 at 00:21
Quote This is all in the process of happening, so I am not sure what exactly you, toyomotor, expect people to _do_.

I didn't say that I expected anything, I posed a question.

You may recall that as a result of Mugabe's policies in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe, that country was kicked out of the Commonwealth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2018 at 02:05
toyomotor You asked, "will the world stand by and watch this happen, again?"

Your question seems to suggest a call for action.  I would suggest that there is always action and reaction happening.  It is not a matter of doing "something," but doing positive things, maximizing the positive and minimizing the negative.  There are some people who cry out for action, who do not appreciate what is being done.

I suggest that the world did not just stand by for Zimbabwe.  It may have watched, but it watched in order to figure out what action to take.  Now maybe more effective action could have been taken, on the other hand the situation also could have been made a bigger mess than it already was.  From the outside  Africa in general often looks like a mess, and so why should South Africa be an exception?  Great music and magnificent wildlife.  To me, it seems like tribalism is the disease that effects Africa and a large part of the world.

So what do you see being done regarding South Africa, and what ought to be done?  I think it is important to note what is happening, but what further should be done, I don't know.


Edited by franciscosan - 13 Mar 2018 at 02:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2018 at 06:14
Franciscosan

Ever heard of a rhetorical question?

Why don't you concentrate on the topic instead of making ad hominem comments.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2018 at 13:44
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Awful & complicated situation in South Africa. Add to that fake news, which is rampantand most of us are baffled. 
South African Parliament Voted to take the farms of white people and not compensate them. If I'm a white farmer, it's a horrible but very clear message. I see it's affecting Australian families. 

How can they stay in South Africa now? Why do they want to? Investments and land are never coming back and it's open season on whitey, everywhere. No one will help white South Africans, I expect the world to do nothing.



WOW!! I didn't know that expropriation of land had become official government policy in South Africa.

This being the case, I see South Africa going the same way as Zimbabwe and other ex-colonies, down the drain.

And what of the white people being driven off land they have worked for several hundred years-no compensation so they'll have to cut and run, IF they can get their money out of the South African banks. I suppose that could be the next step, freeze all assets owned by white people.

I'm reminded of an expression that you'll know well, "Forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do."



Expropriation will create food shortages and hurt poor black people of course. The statistic -72% farmland in South Africa is owned by whites, has an air of historical mistakes repeated the wrongs of the past. They are already cannibalizing people in C.A.R. 

Hopefully most people will get out of Africa and maybe down the road address the theft of land in international court.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2018 at 01:10
Even if they went to court, and won, would you really want to live there again?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2018 at 02:41
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Even if they went to court, and won, would you really want to live there again?


No they shouldn't live there but they might get some money.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2018 at 03:02
Quote No they shouldn't live there but they might get some money.

The recently introduced legislation explicitly excludes compensation, so I would think that any court action within South Africa would fail.

Appeals to a court of world jurisdiction could possibly gain some traction, but the cost of launching such an action is very prohibitive.

I note that one South African parliamentarian has said that he was not saying go out and slaughter them (white people), yet!

That gives an open license to the violent gangs to do just about whatever they want.

I don't think that there are sufficient white people in the South African Armed Forces or police to mount a white led coupe, so pretty much, the white South Africans are defenceless.

Australian media is already asking why we shouldn't take white South Africans as refugees.

I see no reason at all!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2018 at 00:23
I am curious, what has been the decline in the white population since apartheid became an international issue?
Since the end of apartheid, and the Mandela government? 
and since then?  
Also I think it would be interesting to know what has happened over the time, with the black population growth, and the Indian population.  It would also be interesting to see what the difference in decline/growth for white Afrikaners, and white 'Anglos." over the time period, say 1980 to present (2018).  I imagine that the white population has been declining for some time, due primarily to emigration.  Probably a lot of the people who could get out, have gotten out.  Of course some people will have connection to the land or a region, and will stay due to that.

Are there white Zimbabweans still?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2018 at 02:48
Quote I am curious, what has been the decline in the white population since apartheid became an international issue?

Research it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2018 at 03:23
I am curious, I was hoping someone else might be curious too.
I've been wondering about it since probably the 'fall' of Rhodesia, other issues are more pressing.  Eventually, I will get to it, or not.  But don't hold your breath.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 2018 at 04:14
Franciscosan

A very quick "Google" of your question produced the following:
Quote https://businesstech.co.za/news/general/145347/how-south-africas-white-population-has-declined-every-year-over-the-past-decade/

Extracts:

"South Africa’s population has grown significantly over the past decade, hitting just short of 56 million people in 2016, up from 40.6 million people in 1996.

In that time, every population group has shown an increase in numbers – except for the country’s white population, which has declined."

and

"Between 1986 and 2000, 304,112 white South Africans have left the country. Between 2001 and 2005, 133,782 whites emigrated, dropping to 112,046 between 2006 and 2011."

There is more in this article, about the black population increase, and so on if you wish to read it.

The decline in white population does not bode well for the remaining whites in South Africa.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2018 at 19:42
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Will the world stand by and watch this happen-AGAIN?



Yes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2018 at 19:51
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

toyomotor You asked, "will the world stand by and watch this happen, again?"[DIV]
[/DIV][DIV]Your question seems to suggest a call for action.  I would suggest that there is always action and reaction happening.  It is not a matter of doing "something," but doing positive things, maximizing the positive and minimizing the negative.  There are some people who cry out for action, who do not appreciate what is being done.[/DIV][DIV]
[/DIV][DIV]I suggest that the world did not just stand by for Zimbabwe.  It may have watched, but it watched in order to figure out what action to take.  Now maybe more effective action could have been taken, on the other hand the situation also could have been made a bigger mess than it already was.  From the outside  Africa in general often looks like a mess, and so why should South Africa be an exception?  Great music and magnificent wildlife.  To me, it seems like tribalism is the disease that effects Africa and a large part of the world.[/DIV][DIV]
[/DIV][DIV]So what do you see being done regarding South Africa, and what ought to be done?  I think it is important to note what is happening, but what further should be done, I don't know.[/DIV]


I have a far more cynical view of the world. They won't do anything and will not acknowledge to nothing.

People don't mind genocide or atrocities as long as its not happening locally.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2018 at 01:27
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Will the world stand by and watch this happen-AGAIN?



Yes.

Hi Panther, it's been a long time. Good to hear from you.

I suppose it was really a rhetorical question, but I agree with you. In the west we have North Korea, China and Russia to worry about-so I guess this will be swept under the carpets.


Edited by toyomotor - 06 Apr 2018 at 01:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 01:00
This highlights the danger in saying things like "Black Lives Matter." It only emphasizes the difference and dehumanizes the minority.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2018 at 01:02
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

This highlights the danger in saying things like "Black Lives Matter." It only emphasizes the difference and dehumanizes the minority.

Yes, I see your point.

ALL LIVES MATTER!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2018 at 23:13
Yes, but one view of the world emphasizes the view that resources are abundant and unlimited in the opportunity (JFK), and another view of the world emphasizes the limitations and shortages of resources and goods (Eisenhower).  What is my point?  My point is that in saying, "_all_ lives matter," one does not confront the scarcity of resources that limit things.  We care about our family and our friends first, then maybe our tribe (however, I consider tribalism to be a pernicious idea), maybe you can make a difference here or there, but one cannot save everybody, especially from themselves.  It is nice to say that we have unlimited resources, and it is all the fault of somebody who is hoarding things somewhere.  But the reality is that sub Saharan Africa has a shortage of good harbors which has probably contributed more to its underdevelopment than colonialism has.  Children sometimes get terrible diseases, from which they die despite every effort in the best hospitals in the world.  Of course, all lives matter, but at the same time we make choices one way or another all the time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 2018 at 01:24
Quote Of course, all lives matter, but at the same time we make choices one way or another all the time.

Are you saying that African people all have a choice as to where they live? Have a choice to starve and be susceptible to a whole host of diseases?

I'd much rather like to see all of the money spent on space exploration spent instead on the starving and sick people around the world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2018 at 17:39
Without political solutions resources are misused. Would you want to give aid to a government that just voted to take wealth from people based on their skin color? Tribalism is the reason for many of the ills in Africa including the slave trade.

The Maasai people of Kenya have maintained their very unique culture and through the generosity of philanthropists from around the world many who have lived as Maasai are recording their old ways as the animals dissapear. 

This is a repercussion of colonialism and it doesn't matter to the world if innocents pay in blood. Innocents paid in blood before and it's their land. Maybe taking back Africa is what must be done. George Bush planted a seed in Monrovia and I admit the UN has been very successful there. 

George Weah is the newly elected president of Monrovia and he represents a new way for Africa and HOPE!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2018 at 00:41
toyomotor, people always have a choice, sometimes it is between a bad option and a worse option, and often they don't know which is which.  But they do have a choice.  But that choice is never completely free in that it costs someone.  For example, there are pluses and minuses to immigration into the United States, pluses and minuses concerning the American way of life.  Letting people come in/keeping them out, neither is neutral, neither is immigration from Africa to Europe neutral.

toyomotor, I think you assume that if money was taken from the space program, it would be used for something positive.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2018 at 05:31
Quote toyomotor, I think you assume that if money was taken from the space program, it would be used for something positive.

I assume nothing, my wish is that the money spent was spent on the sick and starving.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 2018 at 23:18
Famine is due to political situations, not natural disasters.  It is not a matter of pouring money in, because the local regimes (in Somalia or Ethiopia or North Korea) are the problem, not intrinsic lack of food.  The political situation gets in the way of food aid, or at least makes it more difficult.

Let's feed the North Korean people, so the regime can do the things that they consider important, getting a healthy military and paying money for WMDs.  Somali food aid in the '90s had to be protected from warlords stealing it, and funding themselves through selling it on the grey market.  Do you see how aid can contribute to the world's problems more than it solves them?  Getting aid to those who deserve it is no simple task.  Military interventionism is looked down upon these days.  Food can be used as a weapon by a tyrannical regime.  Distributing food depends on have a distribution system, which is controlled by the government.  Sure, there are problems with desertification, but if there is a good distribution system, that can be coped with unless other things complicate matters further (war).

I think people are coping with world problems already, it is not a question of whether they are doing enough, it is a question of how could they do more, it is not just a matter of resources, it is a matter of how to apply them, effectively so they don't just go down the rabbit hole of corruption.

Some space fans think that unification of the world behind space travel will make war obsolete.  Space is a new frontier.
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toyomotor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2018 at 05:01
Quote Famine is due to political situations, not natural disasters.

You can't possibly be serious! Historically, natural phenomena such as plague, draught and infestation have all resulted in famine.

Quote The political situation gets in the way of food aid, or at least makes it more difficult.

Yes it does.

Quote I think people are coping with world problems already, it is not a question of whether they are doing enough, it is a question of how could they do more, it is not just a matter of resources, it is a matter of how to apply them, effectively so they don't just go down the rabbit hole of corruption.

Quote "People are coping with world problems already......"
is not even close. In Africa and on the Indian sub-continent, people are starving to death. You can't be that insular, surely.

I agree that politics and the breakdown of social structure in some countries adds to the misery of famine.


It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2018 at 02:30
So sell everything and give it to the poor, God will reward you.

I think that your definition of coping is different than mine.  Are people working the issues?  Yes.  Do they have all the answers?  No, not if they are actually working the problems.  I think that people who are involved in such problems have more of an appreciation for the problems.  They may wish for more money, but they know that other people have their own priorities and have to be convinced.  

They have to argue that money for someone in some far off foreign country is more important than giving to someone here, giving to art, giving to God.  It is not like people don't have competing interests.  Islam believes in charity, and al Quada set up donation boxes in Saudi Arabia.  How do you know that when giving to a charity it is actually doing good?  Of course, Muslims in Saudi Arabia, might just be okay with giving funds to al Quada.  How about this, UN aid for Rwandese refugees set up an alternative economy away from the capital in the Congo leading to the overthrow of Mobutu Sese Seko.  Isn't the UN supposed to know how to give aid without it causing more problems than it solves?  In some cases, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

It is my understanding that the US gives more to charity than anyone else in the world.  Other people have higher taxes, and so the government gives for them.  United States, at least traditionally, has had lower taxes, but more an expectation of individuals giving charity.  Personally, I think morality has to do with having a choice, to give or not to give.  Are people moral agents if the government makes all the decisions for them?

Space travel represents to a lot of people hope for the future.  How much is hope worth to you?  You can try to solve all the problems of the world, but if you just put the world in a bottle, and in the process destroy hope, what is the solution worth?
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