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Sorrow for Egypt

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franciscosan View Drop Down
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    Posted: 26 Nov 2017 at 00:07
What happened in Egypt, with the bombing, and targeting of civilians and emergency vehicles is criminal.  That is what "Islamic" "State" is, a criminal enterprise attacking defenseless civilians and, indeed, muslims.  What "Islamic" "State" is neither a state or Islamic, but a gangrenous disease, that deserves to be cut out of the Islamic body, before it kills it.  The sufis, despite their persecution (or maybe because of it,) have learned the skill of being able to play nice with others.  It would be a better world, if mystics would influence the Sunnis on one hand, and the Shiites on the other, away from their cynical nihilistic mindset.

America is not perfect, but when we have an incident, it is usually a loner who goes crazy, and shoots up somewhere.  What happened in Egypt is not an individual eruption, like it is in, perhaps, an all too individualistic America, it is nihilistic criminal enterprise, a festering sore on the body politic that deserves to be lanced.  The participants do not believe in God, there pride, presumption, "hubris" gets in the way of that.  I am not a Muslim, but from what I understand "Islam" means "surrender."  But, these vermin have nothing but a sickness of the mind, that places their will before that of any other, any other including the will of God or what Muslims call Allah.  One knows a tree from its fruit.

I say this not as a muslim or an Arab, for I am neither, an outsider to both of those groups, instead, I say this as a member of the human race.  I am sorry that these things happen, in Egypt or New York, London, Mumbai, or elsewhere.  There is little I can do, so far away, but one thing I can do is say that it should not be this way, of terrorists attacking soft targets and having orgasmic ecstasy over the gore.  Some day those with such a twisted spirit will be extinguished, and hopefully there are others who learn to care, despite the blackness that embraces them now.  I believe in salvation, but not through bombing civilians, women and children.

Jf
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Vanuatu View Drop Down
Chieftain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2017 at 01:52
Wonder about this author's comment? Is this new heresy a mistake? 
Or just the murderous reaction of Jihadists groups who could never be a legitimate political entity?


There is however a common ground often neglected between the two, which would help distinguish the most important difference of all. In her book Sufism, Mystics, and Saints in Modern Egypt, Valerie Hoffman rather daringly states that Sufis view ‘the intention of the fundamentalists, insofar as it is toward producing a godly society, is correct, even if their methods are mistaken’. The merely ‘mistaken’ methods make the difference between the two and today have caused the one to murder the other. Sharing most theological and moral conservative notions with ‘fundamentalists’, Sufis only refuse in the fascism of its implementation. But acquiescence to violence over mere differences of ‘method’ has been a fact in Islamic history and is found in the life and execution of the mystic Mansur al-Hallaj.
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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franciscosan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 2017 at 19:03
Interesting that they characterize Sufism as a polytheism.  Since in the negation of the ego, one 'becomes' God.  I think the Gospel of Thomas may have something similar in that the believer becomes the 'twin' of Jesus.  I have heard that sufism predates Islam.

The Greek philosopher-poet Empedocles said, 'I am God,' there was a sufi that announced himself a follower of Empedocles (follower named: Al Suhawardi), and got executed for it too.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions?  Maybe there is a similarity between sufism and the lunatic fringe, but only one of those groups is massacring people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2017 at 01:58
Agree. Sufis see god in every form of conscious creation, I don't see why author terms it polytheism.
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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toyomotor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2017 at 13:53
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Agree. Sufis see god in every form of conscious creation, I don't see why author terms it polytheism.

Charlie Pride sang,"We're all Gods Children,his next of kin." Whether or not you believe in a God, the fact is that the atrocities being committed by humans on humans is an affront to humanity.

Forget which God you pray to, those who commit these atrocities need to be dealt with in the harshest manner possible.
Tiocfaidh ár lá
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 2017 at 22:00
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Agree. Sufis see god in every form of conscious creation, I don't see why author terms it polytheism.

Charlie Pride sang,"We're all Gods Children,his next of kin." Whether or not you believe in a God, the fact is that the atrocities being committed by humans on humans is an affront to humanity.

Forget which God you pray to, those who commit these atrocities need to be dealt with in the harshest manner possible.

Hello toyomotor,
Frank was utterly merciful and it seems that the terrorist elicited the desired response. I understand, it could be worse than a whole year's traffic fatalities.

My hands weren't wringing this time it was just numbing. Even more horrifying, jihadist decay into zombie apocalypse, no brains behind the hive order.

I was getting around to this point- The author quoted is positing that the Sufi mystics think the blood thirsty jihadists are misguided but ultimately the means bring about the inevitable ends, so be it for their part. They don't think like fundamentalists. 

Sorrow prepares you for joy. It violently sweeps everything out of your house, so that new joy can find space to enter. It shakes the yellow leaves from the bough of your heart, so that fresh, green leaves can grow in their place. It pulls up the rotten roots, so that new roots hidden beneath have room to grow. Whatever sorrow shakes from your heart, far better things will take their place.-Rumi


The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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franciscosan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2017 at 00:06
I would hope that Sufis would think that the radicals are also misguided in that the means that the radicals take, will not get them where they want to go, (the ends).  The terms "fundamentalist," "extremist" do not have the same meaning for muslims that we associate with them.  There is no such thing as "extremism" in the love of God, one can be misguided in what one does, but it is not in the "extreme" or the "fundamentals" that one is wrong.
In saying "I am God," that means to radicals (since that means other people are also God), a plurality, something that sufis avoid by negating the ego or the self, but if you don't believe that they are negating the self, then when sufis say, "I am God," that means _to_ _the_ _radicals_ a plurality, a polytheism as far as God is concerned.  Of course, to the radicals, nobody except "me and thee" meet the criteria of a believer, "and I am not sure about thee."  It makes sense from a narrow, oppositional mindset, I don't agree with that radical mindset, but I can see where it makes sense to a certain logic to think that the sufis must be polytheists.  

The radicals on the other hand, are idolaters.  They are setting up their understanding of a narrow, antagonistic mindset, and bowing down to worship it.  I have never done an organized study of the Koran, (just flipped through and read a few sections), but I venture to guess it is a lot deeper than the radical interpretations (and that is what _they_ are), imply.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2017 at 00:15
Understanding the problem that jihadists have with anyone outside of the hive is not difficult to pinpoint. The Sufi religion is not unknown to me and I admire them.

Again, just a little awed that you are showing a merciful reaction.
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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