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Sinitic Civilization began in 3000 BC in Liangzhu

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote easy772 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2014 at 17:48
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Easy 772:
In any case, you've gone off topic with the DNA aspect, it simply isn't relevant to the date and place of Sinitic Civilisation.
 
Don't be sucked in by Literary Clarity.
 
I've questioned his reasoning on the date and place, but he can't provide the answers.
 
I maintain my belief that Chinese civilisation was accomplished in the Yellow River region and spread south to the people described by the Chinese as barbarians, who may have been, at least in part, Austronesian peoples.
 
 

Sorry about going off-topic. I just wanted to showcase how he distorts sources for everyone to see. 

RE: Tarim mummies

West Eurasians were much more common place in Northwest China and the Altai before the Iron Age. I have a research paper bookmarked that may give some insight on the demographic shift if you are interested. The change seems to have occurred ~700 BC

"A recent discovery of Iron Age burials (Pazyryk culture) in the Altai Mountains of Mongolia may shed light on the mode and tempo of the generation of the current genetic east-west population admixture in Central Asia. Studies on ancient mitochondrial DNA of this region suggest that the Altai Mountains played the role of a geographical barrier between West and East Eurasian lineages until the beginning of the Iron Age. After the 7th century BC, coinciding with Scythian expansion across the Eurasian steppes, a gradual influx of East Eurasian sequences in Western steppes is detected."
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0048904

RE: Origin of Sinitic expansion

"The eastern Himalayas are located near the southern entrance through which early modern humans expanded into East Asia. The genetic structure in this region is therefore of great importance in the study of East Asian origins. However, few genetic studies have been performed on the Sino-Tibetan populations (Luoba and Deng) in this region. Here, we analyzed the Y-chromosome diversity of the two populations. The Luoba possessed haplogroups D, N, O, J, Q, and R, indicating gene flow from Tibetans, as well as the western and northern Eurasians. The Deng exhibited haplogroups O, D, N, and C, similar to most Sino-Tibetan populations in the east. Short tandem repeat (STR) diversity within the dominant haplogroup O3 in Sino-Tibetan populations showed that the Luoba are genetically close to Tibetans and the Deng are close to the Qiang. The Qiang had the greatest diversity of Sino-Tibetan populations, supporting the view of this population being the oldest in the family. The lowest diversity occurred in the eastern Himalayas, suggesting that this area was an endpoint for the expansion of Sino-Tibetan people. Thus, we have shown that populations with haplogroup O3 moved into the eastern Himalayas through at least two routes."

Higher diversity indicates that a lineage has been around in that area for a while. Lower diversity indicates the area has been recently settled


Edited by easy772 - 08 Jun 2014 at 18:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2014 at 19:21
easy772 you reveal your distortion by going off topic.  That is the point.  Nobody cares about the eastern Himalayas peopling of China and where O3 has retained all the diversity near Qiang territory.  Coinciding with that it turns out the eastern Himalyas is also where the least diversity has also occurred depending on which population you are talking about.  By using your same source we can understand that people within the region had no opportunities to expand.  They aged and retained internal diversity.  In any case your article talks about who were the oldest population within the family, not that they invented anything within Sinitic civilization.

easy772, the topic simply doesn't care if Chinese have different arrangments of C, D, J, N, O, Q, R etc.  Neither does it care about nonexistant writings of Tarim during the middle neolithic and Scythian expansion at the turn of the 7th century BC.  It cares about the Sinitic civilization of China, not Sino-Tibetan Austronesian.  If you want to talk about the mtDNA admixtures for the matrilocal Tibeto-Burman/Austronesian expansion, teeth pulling, millet farming, facial tattooing, be my guest but please go to another thread.


Edited by literaryClarity - 08 Jun 2014 at 21:02
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2014 at 00:44
http://www2.econ.iastate.edu/classes/econ355/choi/silkroad.htm

Quote
The Ricardian trade model does not explain the caravan trade along the Silkroad between the two empires, Rome and China (because China have exported not only silk but also many other products, including porcelain wares, to Europe). The Specific Factors Model explains the trade along the Silkroad. Emperor Wu Di (145-87 BC) of Han dynasty (206 BC - 220 AD) built the silkroad, connecting Chang An (Xian today, where Qin Shi Huang-Di's tomb was recently found, making it the most important archeological discovery in the 20th Century) and Europe, though central Asia. However, the Chinese were trading with Europe long before the Silkroad was officially built and expanded by emperor Wu Di. Imported colored glasses were found in China during the Warring States period. Silk was produced by the Liangzhu people who lived around the Yangtze River basin (around Shanghai today).


http://www.friendsofjade.org/current-article/2004/12/2/neolithic-jades-of-the-liangzhu-culture-in-the-zhejiang-provincial-museum-of-hangzhou.html

Beautiful jade pieces and other artifacts showcases Liangzhu in the Zhejiang provincial museums.  Notice that none of these things were originated from the Yellow River nor were they Tibeto-Burman/Austronesian inheritances.


Edited by literaryClarity - 15 Jun 2014 at 01:00
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2014 at 05:16
Just launched a formal complaint.  If I was wrong please take no notice of this.

Quote
I would like to bring this dual account to the attention of the administrators/mods

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34369

toyomotor/Arlington was banned from AllEmpires.com months ago and he's possibly here now doing the same thing with his proxies.

His reason for being banned:

Quote
Dual idents and trolling.  He's apparently a notorious troll.  He's using false proxies.


I did notice toyomotor's and Arlington's join dates were very close together, in fact they joined this forum within a day or two from receiving permanent ban from AllEmpires.com


Edited by literaryClarity - 18 Jun 2014 at 05:17
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2014 at 05:54
literaryClarity
I strongly would advice you to rethink what you are doing on this forum. You already had one friendly advice from Panther... - so this is an official warning.

You open thread after thread on the same topic - spamming and trolling just to keep your attack up on toyomotor and easy772. 
That is a violation of our Code of Conduct, and next time it happens, there will be consequences.

Furthermore:
Now when this didn't work for you, you bring up some old knowledge about dual identity - something totally unfounded from another forum, that has nothing to do with this forum. 
It has been brought up before and there is no shred of evidence to support such a claim.

You are not doing yourself any favors with this kind of behavior.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2014 at 05:58
Northman & Panther:
Thank you, I will not respond to any further posting by Literary Clarity on these topics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2014 at 06:32
Northman

I thought resolving someone's report on a suspicious post wouldn't be conditional on whether the person wanted to open multiple threads or wanted to open single threads.  They are separate issues in my book.  I was under the impression a reported post would be dealt with swiftly on account of the report in conjunction with a moderator's sound judgement.  There is no need to "advice" me on anything beyond the issue of my multiple threading, if that doesn't suit the forum.

I suppose the great majority of people would still understand the need for separate threading which is why my threads still remain although somewhat rearranged in posting order by moderator Panther.

The only reason I brought Arlington up was because he participated in this thread along with toyomotor which might seem coincidental to some unless you saw what I saw on the other forum.  I would have reported anyone thought of having dual accounts, not just for the people whom debated with me.  I'm not petty and scandalous like that.


Edited by literaryClarity - 18 Jun 2014 at 06:48
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2014 at 07:19
literaryClarity
You don't know me - so how can you even begin to have thoughts about my resolving reports?
You also have some "impressions" and you "suppose" on behalf of a majority of people.
Then you have something "coincidental" - and no...  I don't go to the other forum....

There is nothing factual in your post - all vague assumptions.
The best you have is still my advice - yet you don't seem to take it.  
That could prove to be a bad decision.

This is an answer to your post - you don't have to answer, its not a debate.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2014 at 07:29
Northman

I have received the advice from moderator Panther already.  You said so yourself.  When have I since opened a single thread? I had patiently awaited the issue to resolve itself.  My reports are a separate issue altogether.
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2014 at 08:14
 Interesting fact:
 
A person using the name the Sinitic, has posted exactly the same info as LC on another forum.
 
 
Oh well!
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2014 at 13:13
That's because that person is me...obviously...would you have me reword my own posts differently?

I've since posted the same threads modeling off of Panther's modifications and condensing the information within 2 threads, ie "Zhou adopted the East Asian lingua franca of Shang" and "Hemudu/Liangzhu link to Austronesian tenable?".

The purpose of which is to question the tenability of Tibeto-Burmans and Austronesians to Hemudu/Liangzhu after it had already been explained why "Sinitic civilization began in Liangzhu in 3000 BC".

Maybe I'll create one just for Cumans and one for Ancient Black Chinese.
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2014 at 10:19
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

That's because that person is me...obviously...would you have me reword my own posts differently?

I've since posted the same threads modeling off of Panther's modifications and condensing the information within 2 threads, ie "Zhou adopted the East Asian lingua franca of Shang" and "Hemudu/Liangzhu link to Austronesian tenable?".

The purpose of which is to question the tenability of Tibeto-Burmans and Austronesians to Hemudu/Liangzhu after it had already been explained why "Sinitic civilization began in Liangzhu in 3000 BC".

Maybe I'll create one just for Cumans and one for Ancient Black Chinese.
 
Proceeding with your current attitude will only result in us ignoring you. Is that what you want?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote easy772 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2014 at 19:24

Past Human Migrations in East AsiaMatching Archaeology, Linguistics and Genetics

Writing and Literacy in Chinese, Korean and Japanese


Dawenkou and Yangshao seem to be the precursors to Old Chinese, not surprising. Here's yet another source supporting that:

RE: Peiligang cultures only farming millet. 

That's not true. They also farmed rice. 


Edited by easy772 - 21 Jun 2014 at 19:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2014 at 09:31
The rice was not sacred, the millet was.  That was the point Sagart focused for Tibeto-Burmans/Austronesians.  There was a hierarchical priority to the matriarchs establishing Austronesian expansion.  Notice Sagart's paper was NOT "The expansion of Rice farmers in East Asia"

Why did you bring up sources written by armchair historians only to smear them?  Remember Goodenough?  You said he thought the Yangzi valley was sinicized when he never said such a thing.  He actually posited there may be remnant tribes of the Austronesian expansion which remained along the coast but for which most ended up in Taiwan.  Likewise the anonymous source you give here isn't saying Yangshao invented the Longshan horizon and Sinitic writing.  Its symbols were simple geometric imprints or abstractions of plants and animals, making them worshipped totems (eg. eyes of a taotie or s-shape of dragon).  A symbol must have literary value assigned, not merely pictorial, to be considered "word".  While descendants of Yangshao people can be observed for how they drew a certain fish or animal which can then be used as part of a library of written symbols, they didn't invent writing of words.  Sinitic writing or words meant putting symbols together by people in civilization knowing how to construct sentence structure.

The symbols shown relating to Dawenkou were found in multiple regional areas showing that it was a neolithic logo having to do with the east.  Therefore its structure as different words is not tenable ie a short sentence which reads "Sun fire mountain".


Edited by literaryClarity - 23 Jun 2014 at 09:50
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yingui Lexicon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2014 at 23:47
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

The rice was not sacred, the millet was.  That was the point Sagart focused for Tibeto-Burmans/Austronesians.  There was a hierarchical priority to the matriarchs establishing Austronesian expansion.  Notice Sagart's paper was NOT "The expansion of Rice farmers in East Asia"

Why did you bring up sources written by armchair historians only to smear them?  Remember Goodenough?  You said he thought the Yangzi valley was sinicized when he never said such a thing.  He actually posited there may be remnant tribes of the Austronesian expansion which remained along the coast but for which most ended up in Taiwan.  Likewise the anonymous source you give here isn't saying Yangshao invented the Longshan horizon and Sinitic writing.  Its symbols were simple geometric imprints or abstractions of plants and animals, making them worshipped totems (eg. eyes of a taotie or s-shape of dragon).  A symbol must have literary value assigned, not merely pictorial, to be considered "word".  While descendants of Yangshao people can be observed for how they drew a certain fish or animal which can then be used as part of a library of written symbols, they didn't invent writing of words.  Sinitic writing or words meant putting symbols together by people in civilization knowing how to construct sentence structure.

The symbols shown relating to Dawenkou were found in multiple regional areas showing that it was a neolithic logo having to do with the east.  Therefore its structure as different words is not tenable ie a short sentence which reads "Sun fire mountain".

Didn't genetic tests show that the Liangzhu people were closer to modern Austronesians? I'm not sure, that's what I read. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 03:09
YL wrote:
Quote Didn't genetic tests show that the Liangzhu people were closer to modern Austronesians? I'm not sure, that's what I read.
 
I also thought that was the case.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 13:26
Originally posted by Yingui Lexicon Yingui Lexicon wrote:

Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

The rice was not sacred, the millet was.  That was the point Sagart focused for Tibeto-Burmans/Austronesians.  There was a hierarchical priority to the matriarchs establishing Austronesian expansion.  Notice Sagart's paper was NOT "The expansion of Rice farmers in East Asia"

Why did you bring up sources written by armchair historians only to smear them?  Remember Goodenough?  You said he thought the Yangzi valley was sinicized when he never said such a thing.  He actually posited there may be remnant tribes of the Austronesian expansion which remained along the coast but for which most ended up in Taiwan.  Likewise the anonymous source you give here isn't saying Yangshao invented the Longshan horizon and Sinitic writing.  Its symbols were simple geometric imprints or abstractions of plants and animals, making them worshipped totems (eg. eyes of a taotie or s-shape of dragon).  A symbol must have literary value assigned, not merely pictorial, to be considered "word".  While descendants of Yangshao people can be observed for how they drew a certain fish or animal which can then be used as part of a library of written symbols, they didn't invent writing of words.  Sinitic writing or words meant putting symbols together by people in civilization knowing how to construct sentence structure.

The symbols shown relating to Dawenkou were found in multiple regional areas showing that it was a neolithic logo having to do with the east.  Therefore its structure as different words is not tenable ie a short sentence which reads "Sun fire mountain".

Didn't genetic tests show that the Liangzhu people were closer to modern Austronesians? I'm not sure, that's what I read. 


No I think you got confused by the haplogroups analysis as did toyomotor. The original places had O O1 O2 and O3 and bottlenecking served to make different areas have different concentrations.  The actual phenotypes bottlenecked by Liangzhu people were very close to what many Sinitics in the area look like.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2014 at 05:11
Quote 16. By 1500 BCE
Out of the Longshan culture arose China’s first civilisation – Shang Civilisation
Yellow River Plains – cradle of Chinese civilisation
Remains of the Shang Civilisation have been found between the present-day cities of Anyang and Luoyang
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2014 at 05:25
The Longshan came from Liangzhu.

Quote
−The Longshan horizon (Lung-shan), started around 3500 BC with Liangzhu culture, became widespread by 2500 BC; lasted until about 1500 BC
−also written Longshan or Longshan
−a “horizon” that spread across northern China
−a “horizon” is the extension of a style (usually of pottery) over a very wide area
−horizons make convenient time markers
−because sites that contain objects in the horizon s tyle must be roughly contemporarywith each other
−horizon styles allow us to correlate what was happening in many different places at thatsame time
−but since a horizon style may take a while to spread, appearance of the style in different places may not actually happen at the same moment
−a horizon typically starts somewhere, and gets to its periphery later
−horizons are also interesting because they imply widely shared ideas, probably beyond the pottery style that marks them




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sardor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2015 at 09:14
Chinese historians and some concepts. The definition of the world civilization finds them denied.
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