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Scientific Revolution

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2017 at 03:54
Besides probes, I think we are a long way away from traveling to other planets in our solar system.

Eisenhower was opposed to manned space missions, I think because of the possibility of casualties.  Too costly in his opinion.  It was Kennedy that really advocated manned moon mission.  But then again, Kennedy was into the grandiose vision.  It is ironic that the Eisenhower dollar coin has the eagle landing on the moon, on the reverse, considering what he thought of manned space flight.  Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of being involved in space.  But a lot of what the space race was, was propaganda.

I think the human mind needs for there to be something else than 'what' there is, right in front of us.  Whether that is God or a frontier.  Like supposedly how sharks, if they stop swimming, don't get oxygen through their gills and die.  I think it is important for man to imagine something else, something bigger.  Not necessarily everybody needs that, but I think that some people without an external focus, will create problems whether it is terrorism, or just apathy.  I think this is more of a problem for men, who if they (as cavemen) have nothing to 'hunt,' will find something (stupid) to do.

Idle hands make the devil's work, I worry that fixing everything will make a heaven for some, a hell for others.  But you can try, I am just not sure you will get the results you want.

I think of Obama "fixing" healthcare.  I think of how people talk about "fixing" a dog, which means in a way breaking it of something that biological is essential for dogs to do, make puppies.  If, say, we entirely control the weather, is that fixing the planet? or is it destroying something primordial, such as a big storm?  Maybe we can fix the planet "just a little."  Then again, maybe it doesn't work that way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2017 at 08:01
Did you hear about the CEO's like Elon Musk, Jeff Immelt  and Mark Zuckerburg talking about a Universal Wage bc all the jobs will be taken over by robots? Zuckerburg is saying 5 years and more than ten percent of jobs now done by humans will be a thing of the past.

That's why I think humans will be merged with machines if only to keep the machines from becoming our slave masters.
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2017 at 09:12
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Besides probes, I think we are a long way away from traveling to other planets in our solar system.

Eisenhower was opposed to manned space missions, I think because of the possibility of casualties.  Too costly in his opinion.  It was Kennedy that really advocated manned moon mission.  But then again, Kennedy was into the grandiose vision.  It is ironic that the Eisenhower dollar coin has the eagle landing on the moon, on the reverse, considering what he thought of manned space flight.  Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of being involved in space.  But a lot of what the space race was, was propaganda.

I think the human mind needs for there to be something else than 'what' there is, right in front of us.  Whether that is God or a frontier.  Like supposedly how sharks, if they stop swimming, don't get oxygen through their gills and die.  I think it is important for man to imagine something else, something bigger.  Not necessarily everybody needs that, but I think that some people without an external focus, will create problems whether it is terrorism, or just apathy.  I think this is more of a problem for men, who if they (as cavemen) have nothing to 'hunt,' will find something (stupid) to do.

Idle hands make the devil's work, I worry that fixing everything will make a heaven for some, a hell for others.  But you can try, I am just not sure you will get the results you want.

I think of Obama "fixing" healthcare.  I think of how people talk about "fixing" a dog, which means in a way breaking it of something that biological is essential for dogs to do, make puppies.  If, say, we entirely control the weather, is that fixing the planet? or is it destroying something primordial, such as a big storm?  Maybe we can fix the planet "just a little."  Then again, maybe it doesn't work that way.

Once again you miss the point.

The money that is being spent NOW is the issue.
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2017 at 23:50
OK, toyomotor, you go ahead and cut out the Australian Space Program, and I will keep the American Space program.

You miss the point, if you want to convince the world to give up on space, you better convince the people who are pro-space exploration.  You may think that the idea of manned spaceflight is a fantasy, but I submit to you, that the world has always had poor, and yes, even starving people, your utopian ideals are a fantasy as well, even more so.  In fact, I think it is more likely that we can do both, rather than create your utopia, and give up on space.

If you were paying attention, you would realize that in the story of Eisenhower, I gave you an example of someone who historically in the US tradition, may have supported a position much like yours.  If you were paying attention....  You are welcome.


Edited by franciscosan - 30 Jun 2017 at 23:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2017 at 02:28
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

OK, toyomotor, you go ahead and cut out the Australian Space Program, and I will keep the American Space program.

You miss the point, if you want to convince the world to give up on space, you better convince the people who are pro-space exploration.  You may think that the idea of manned spaceflight is a fantasy, but I submit to you, that the world has always had poor, and yes, even starving people, your utopian ideals are a fantasy as well, even more so.  In fact, I think it is more likely that we can do both, rather than create your utopia, and give up on space.

If you were paying attention, you would realize that in the story of Eisenhower, I gave you an example of someone who historically in the US tradition, may have supported a position much like yours.  If you were paying attention....  You are welcome.

Nope, not trying to convince the world. Just giving my opinion, which is my entitlement.
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2017 at 01:17
Oh, I am sorry, I thought you were trying to make the world a better place, my mistake.

Let us try to get back to scientific revolution.  Is that okay?  
Listening to a CD course on the history of early modernism, apparently Francis Bacon did not just come out of nowhere, he was very much anti-Aristotle.  My point is, that someone like Bacon was necessary to break away from the scholastic Aristotelianism that predominated in that age.  If you didn't have Bacon or someone like him, I suspect it would have been much more difficult to break away from the Medieval view of scholastic Aristotelianism.  So get rid of Bacon and Descartes, the medieval view of scholastic Aristotelianism would have been more entrenched.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2017 at 05:02
Yes,Bacon and Descartes have a mechanistic view of nature. It replaced Aristotle's teleological explanation for the drive in nature to "be" or strive for existence. There is a goal for the falling rock, it's seeking it's place.

Aristotle talked about a final cause right? Was the final cause of the poppy to provide an antidote for pain ? Aloe to heal the skin? Foxglove for the heart? Maybe.

Did Bacon or Descartes contribute to a disregard for the stewardship of the wild game, trees and plants? People understood when fish were breeding and knew they had to wait for the right time to fish. The beginnings of industry led to over-fishing in Europe. It drove expansionism when the connection to nature became vivisection. 
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2017 at 22:57
I think it was Moliere who mocked the medical community of the time, which it being Aristotelian said that opium had a property of sleepiness (or something like that), as if that was a learned judgment.

That is something interesting about early modern science, Newton gave man the ability to look upon nature and manage it through (mechanistic) laws, in order to "mine" it for resources for man, but at the time there is not really much thought about preservation or conservation, or how "mining" degrades the resources.

It is kind of Faustian, Newton gave a lot of control to people through his physics, but at the same time much of European society has no concept of limiting the control for what we now would call sustainability.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2017 at 09:59
Franciscosan
Why do you go on with all of this twaddle (which is a British word for bull sh*t) rather than address the OP head on.

Is it really germain what Moliere or Newton said?  Wouldn't be more relevant to discuss what happened as the result of their cogitations and prognostications ?

I have to be frank, Frank, you cock up interesting conversations with boring irrelevant crap, mate.
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2017 at 22:11
I am responding to what Vanuatu said, read her post before mine, (and mine before her's), she also started the OP thread, so if she does not have a problem with what I post, I don't see why you should either....  
Newton is very relevant to the scientific revolution, and so he is very relevant to imagining an alternate history to the scientific revolution.  
Moliere's comment is a criticism of the old Aristotelian norm, that the scientific revolution is replacing.  He is pointing out that the supposedly learned comment that 'poppies have a sleepiness propertiy' is educated drivel, which should be replaced with genuine scientific knowledge.  Vanuatu talked about poppies as pan-killers in the previous post.  So you are right, that the Moliere paraphrase is drivel, and that is its point.
I am listening to a lecture course on early modern thought, and it is very good, but I may not be able to adequately express it all the time.  So sometimes, maybe I try and I don't succeed as well as i hope.  But I do think Vanuatu's thread of the scientific revolution _as_alternate_history_ is a really interesting angle at which to approach it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2017 at 02:39
Sorry for having an opinion!
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2017 at 04:48
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I think it was Moliere who mocked the medical community of the time, which it being Aristotelian said that opium had a property of sleepiness (or something like that), as if that was a learned judgment.

That is something interesting about early modern science, Newton gave man the ability to look upon nature and manage it through (mechanistic) laws, in order to "mine" it for resources for man, but at the time there is not really much thought about preservation or conservation, or how "mining" degrades the resources.

It is kind of Faustian, Newton gave a lot of control to people through his physics, but at the same time much of European society has no concept of limiting the control for what we now would call sustainability.

Not a thought for conservation but the people of Elizabethan England certainly were familiar with conquerors. The loss of resources was a reason for run by European countries on the New World.

Moliere wrote comedies right? Do you know much about him outside the course material? I know he was said to be brilliant without fail.
Who is most like a modern version of Moliere??

toyomotor Smile, I do think the subject of the alternate Scientific Revolution is a big enough umbrella for a varied commentary branching off among many contributors of the time. And art and drama must have been a force in society and well know to the nobility. Wouldn't you say?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2017 at 07:40
Quote toyomotor Smile, I do think the subject of the alternate Scientific Revolution is a big enough umbrella for a varied commentary branching off among many contributors of the time. And art and drama must have been a force in society and well know to the nobility. Wouldn't you say?

Say what???Confused


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2017 at 20:39
Vanuatu

 I've said everything i know about Moliere, if I learn anything else, I'll send you a PM about it.  One thing, though, Moliere is probably more relevant to the popularization of the scientific revolution in French culture, then directly to the science itself.  
In our society, everything is as instant as an email or a tweet.  Getting ideas out in the 17th and 18th century, was more roundabout, especially with the censorship.  And with the development of printing and pamphlets, that was ten times more direct than the Middle Ages.

I don't know how much of a need there was in Elizabethan England for new sources for resources.  I am not saying that you are wrong about it spurring colonization, I just don't know.
And of course, Germany was a Johnny-come-lately to the colonial endeavor, which means they didn't develop the colonies like other European powers had (and pillaged).  Which also lead to them becoming more technologically savvy than other European powers, but also led them to try carving out an empire in all of Europe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2017 at 03:57
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote toyomotor Smile, I do think the subject of the alternate Scientific Revolution is a big enough umbrella for a varied commentary branching off among many contributors of the time. And art and drama must have been a force in society and well know to the nobility. Wouldn't you say?

Say what???Confused



The people who could read would have read Moliere. The subject is broad enough to include a lot of people of the 15th century and before.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 2017 at 22:00
There may be some confusion about what the scientific revolution is.
The scientific revolution is the switch away from the Aristotelian closed universe, using deductive knowledge, to the Newton open universe, where inductive knowledge and empiricism is supreme.  With Astronomy at the forefront, because of the perfection that Aristotle gives to the heavens, the scientific revolution (astronomy track) starts, with Copernicus, Bruno, Galileo, Brahe, Kepler, Newton, Halley.  Rene Descartes is not an astronomer, but would be after Kepler.  Francis Bacon is also early and influential on the rejection of authority, the adoption of empiricism and induction.  Locke is also important for his empiricism.  Part of this empiricism is powered by tools that allow us to measure, whereas the Aristotelian view was more qualitative, the new scientific view was more quantitative.  The telescope, the microscope and the mechanical clock are used.  Many of the early scientists, however are very obscure in their writings, and so there is a need for popularizers, like Voltaire for Newton.  Moliere is probably partially in that camp.

We sometimes use the phrase "scientific revolution" when referring to AI or space flight, or nanotechnology.  But historically the phrase belongs to the 15-18th centuries, the end of the Middle Ages (Copernicus, Bruno), gaining into the Renaissance (Galileo) into Early Modern (Bacon, Descartes, Lock, Newton), and into the Enlightenment, ending with the French Revolution "eating their children."

The Enlightenment is probably not so much part of the intellectual 'milleu' of the scientific revolution, as it is the pay off.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2017 at 10:08
Franciscosan

Yes, your right of course. I looked at the OP from a different angle, and not being a trained scientist, I took the view of everyman.

I apologise if I offended you.
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2017 at 02:06
Don't worry about it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2017 at 11:15
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Vanuatu

 I've said everything i know about Moliere, if I learn anything else, I'll send you a PM about it.  One thing, though, Moliere is probably more relevant to the popularization of the scientific revolution in French culture, then directly to the science itself.  
In our society, everything is as instant as an email or a tweet.  Getting ideas out in the 17th and 18th century, was more roundabout, especially with the censorship.  And with the development of printing and pamphlets, that was ten times more direct than the Middle Ages.

I don't know how much of a need there was in Elizabethan England for new sources for resources.  I am not saying that you are wrong about it spurring colonization, I just don't know.
And of course, Germany was a Johnny-come-lately to the colonial endeavor, which means they didn't develop the colonies like other European powers had (and pillaged).  Which also lead to them becoming more technologically savvy than other European powers, but also led them to try carving out an empire in all of Europe.

I know you like my words but you doubt me so let there be clarity. ;)
 
Historical Overfishing and the Recent Collapse of Coastal Ecosystems
The collapse of Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar) stocks throughout North-Western Europe is generally ascribed to large-scale river regulation, water pollution and over-fishing in the 19th and 20th century. However, other causes have rarely been quantified, especially those acting before the 19th century. By analysing historical fishery, market and tax statistics, independently confirmed by archaeozoological records, we demonstrate that populations declined by up to 90% during the transitional period between the Early Middle Ages (c. 450–900 AD) and Early Modern Times (c. 1600 AD). These dramatic declines coincided with improvements in watermill technology and their geographical expansion across Europe. Our extrapolations suggest that historical Atlantic salmon runs must have once been very abundant indeed. The historical perspective presented here contributes to a better understanding of the primary factors that led to major declines in salmon populations. Such understanding provides an essential basis for the effective ecological rehabilitation of freshwater ecosystems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2017 at 21:42
For ideas, I think that it is a sign of understanding if one can put it into one's own words.  That is not necessarily true if one is giving a factual statement, then it can be more important to faithfully report the original statement.
I am aware of environmental degradation over time, but I don't know how much that changed or got worse with the industrial revolution.  The mechanization in the industrial revolution kind of originated from the mechanical model of the scientific revolution.  Never thought of that angle of the waterwheel on the Salmon runs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2017 at 04:54
From the 1700's on the populations exploded in Europe, so many more people to feed. 

There are records in the Christian monasteries of European countries switching from local fresh water fish to dried cod from Norway. It's been interpreted as reaction to over fishing.

Water wheel was another painful gain for industry. It must have happened everywhere the water wheel was introduced to the local fish. 

The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2017 at 05:46
Vanuatu
Quote  It must have happened everywhere the water wheel was introduced to the local fish.

Yes, the Waterwheel would have had some impact on the fish. It would also had an impact on the labourers previously used to "walk the wheel" and the horses used for the same purpose.

Whatever advancements were made in science, there have been some negative side effects, take the Atomic Bomb, horrific side effects, Thalidomide, LSD, and so on.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2017 at 20:57
There may well be negative side effects to science, but usually when we talk about negative side effects, of the Waterwheel or whatnot, we are talking about a technology, or how science is applied, not the theories of science itself.  Of course, some people believe that if we can do something, we ought to do something, clone sheep or whatever.  So it might be in some cases, a fine distinction between theory and practice.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 02:23
Agree.
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 14:57
Maybe the urge to protect nature from the advancement of science is an evolutionary advancement caused by the earth. Like earth's hive mentality seen in bees to protect home, we are not as efficient at rebuilding home.
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2017 at 02:55
Agreed.
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2017 at 06:17
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu
Quote  It must have happened everywhere the water wheel was introduced to the local fish.

Yes, the Waterwheel would have had some impact on the fish. It would also had an impact on the labourers previously used to "walk the wheel" and the horses used for the same purpose.

Whatever advancements were made in science, there have been some negative side effects, take the Atomic Bomb, horrific side effects, Thalidomide, LSD, and so on.




So is it a swirling spiral of ever worsening conditions? 

Hindu would say don't worry it's just a game and we get to do it all over again. 



The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2017 at 17:57
Two steps(?) forward, one step back.  
Or maybe like a waltz, one forward, one to the side, one back, one to the other side, repeat.....
Some people are reassured by reincarnation, the point is, you are not _supposed_ to come back, you are supposed to get it right, and go to Nirvana.  Ironically, Nirvana was also a Seattle grunge band whose lead singer blew his brains out with a shotgun.  Truly a troubled soul.
But in modernity, mechanization like the waterwheel, steam engine, gas engine, replace brute force, either human or animal in doing labor.  "Mechane" in Greek, means trick or rouse.  I kind of wonder, ironically, if the trick is ultimately on humans, with robots replacing human workers.  

Francis Bacon believed that the steady progression of method was better than genius, because genius gets one further, but not necessarily in the right direction.  But what is to say that a steady progression of method gets one in the right direction?  It is true that if going in the wrong direction, a ship can turn around, but if you have an aircraft carrier or a supertanker, there are only a few places, say, in the Persian Gulf that they can (slowly and with much effort) turn around.  Society is much like that, the steady progression of method, means that vested interests hinder turning around.  Often it takes Bacon's maligned genius to break out of the pattern that is well established. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2017 at 22:25
I'd be interested to hear some examples of Bacon's maligned genius. Just curious what you had in mind.

Edited by Vanuatu - 16 Jul 2017 at 22:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2017 at 02:05
I do not know which geniuses Francis Bacon is talking about, I would assume Aristotle and Aristotelians like Aquinas, maybe Plato, but definitely Aristotle.  He would consider the geniuses as going a long way, but probably not in the right direction.  He would advocate slow and steady, following empirical, inductive method, like following a compass on a walk, constantly consulting and correcting (my analogy).
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