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    Posted: 25 Feb 2015 at 12:46
What if Sir Francis Bacon had not insisted on forcing secrets out of Nature?

What if understanding the Natural world was left to the Alchemist?

The "Gold" could have been more effective than vaccines and trumped religion in the realization of Consciousness as a vehicle for turning thoughts into manifested, real time events.

Jakob Boheme looked at the plant Foxglove and simply understood its purpose, he successfully treated patients for dropsy. Today Digitalis is used to treat Heart Arrhythmias, its made from Foxglove.

What if 8th century flagellates understood that the sexual energy they felt during deep contemplative prayer was not the devil trying to tempt them? What if they ceased hatred of the body and embraced the miracle of spiritual ecstasy? Or the Oceanic Experience as Barclay called it.
All religions have a name for it, Europe called it temptation by Satan. How strange to deny peace joy and pleasure and instead call it an evil used to subjugate the masses..ooh yes now I get it.

Edited by Vanuatu - 25 Feb 2015 at 12:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2015 at 00:39
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

What if Sir Francis Bacon had not insisted on forcing secrets out of Nature?

It was in the air, I believe Machiavelli described nature as a woman who should be forced to reveal her secrets.  Pierre Hadot in his "Veil of Isis" talks about Bacon as an example of the Promethean paradigm of nature, going back to ancient Greece.  But another option is the Orphic paradigm, which I imagine would be more in line with alchemy.  Goethe and Schiller are modern examples of the Orphic paradigm, Plato's Timaeus is an ancient example of the Orphic paradigm.

What if understanding the Natural world was left to the Alchemist?

German Romanticism? giant dirigibles a la Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow.  The triumph of imagination over the mechanical paradigm? 

The "Gold" could have been more effective than vaccines and trumped religion in the realization of Consciousness as a vehicle for turning thoughts into manifested, real time events.

Jakob Boheme looked at the plant Foxglove and simply understood its purpose, he successfully treated patients for dropsy. Today Digitalis is used to treat Heart Arrhythmias, its made from Foxglove.

Boehme is big on the imagination, if I recall correctly.

What if 8th century flagellates understood that the sexual energy they felt during deep contemplative prayer was not the devil trying to tempt them? What if they ceased hatred of the body and embraced the miracle of spiritual ecstasy? Or the Oceanic Experience as Barclay called it.
All religions have a name for it, Europe called it temptation by Satan. How strange to deny peace joy and pleasure and instead call it an evil used to subjugate the masses..ooh yes now I get it.

You get what? "sticks and stones may break my bones, but whips and chains excite me."?  I mean it doesn't excite me, and I imagine it doesn't excite you, but different strokes for different folks.  If they want to whip themselves, I am not going to get in the way.  It's like cutters, it's not a healthy activity, but it is more a symptom of the problem than a problem in itself.


Edited by franciscosan - 26 Feb 2015 at 00:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2015 at 00:48
Ok, Vanuatu did not say all that, but I'm just learning to quote, so I apologize.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 2015 at 22:48
Simultaneity in pleasure and pain is part of human programming ask anyone who endured Catholic school when beatings were still part of the curriculum. It was the emotional confusion that's so pitiable.
What I get is that mutilating yourself is great way to justify mutilating others. So my friends can be burned at the stake, as I believe its saving their mortal soul.
Certainly then the church should tell us also when to confess when to allow mere wealth to remove the sins our deviant souls wallow in.

You better not enjoy that flogging!

Francis Bacon is important because he changed the method for thinking about How and Why. His method (not his actual experiments there were none) required checking with established data before proceeding with any eureka thought. Einstein didn't work that way, I think Crick dreamed about helical structure and Tesla had a daydream about alternating current.
There would have more participation in natural intelligence.
Boehme needed his spelling corrected thank you.
Boehme, DaVinci and others read Nature without vexing systems at work.
Our human progress may have been more harmonious less blow up the world-ish.

Allowing full ecstatic experience (St Theresa, St Katherine) without beatings could have led to even greater revelations on the nature of sin and forgiveness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 00:14
Because nothing says Bacon like a Natural Philosopher
http://www.kepler.edu/home/index.php/articles/history-of-astrology/item/333-francis-bacon-the-natural-philosopher

Bacon’s lack of consideration towards the craftsmen, artisans, mechanics, and engineers was pitiable [Perry, 549]. In fact, the craftsmen and artisans made a huge impact on the improvement of human life. They advanced knowledge and technology and contributed to the betterment of human life, far more then Bacon ever did. Even though the craftsmen occupied a lower status in society, they were able to construct products for the natural philosophers to use. The craftsmen mastered their art and became experts at assisting the philosophers to produce important, systematic experimentations [Gregory, 136]. These new scientific philosophers worked with the craftsmen to further develop existing instruments, and make them even more accurate. Measuring instruments were essential for everyday use: the weighing of food, surveying of land, navigating by using the stars, telling time and even preparing herbal remedies, which were upgraded for experimental use. The Optician, who had traditionally worked with reading glasses and nautical telescopes soon became in demand in the seventeenth century when they expanded to use microscopes and telescopes as well. These optical instruments revealed details of the natural world that had never been seen before and lead the early experimenters to turn to the craftsmen for guidance, not to Francis Bacon [Fara, 159].


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 04:08
I have studied Francis Bacon lately, but I don't feel like I have a good grasp on him.  i'm not disagreeing with you, but what do you mean by "how" and "why"?  How is inductive rather than deductive?  why means loosing the final cause of Aristotelian philosophy?  is that what you are referring to? please put in your own words, if you would.  Maybe I'm expecting too much from Bacon.

When was the heyday of Alchemy?  When does chemistry begin?  I seem to remember that Parcelsus offered a "more Christian" alternative to the four humors, thus breaking medicine away from Galen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 06:07
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I have studied Francis Bacon lately, but I don't feel like I have a good grasp on him.  i'm not disagreeing with you, but what do you mean by "how" and "why"?  How is inductive rather than deductive?  why means loosing the final cause of Aristotelian philosophy?  is that what you are referring to? please put in your own words, if you would.  Maybe I'm expecting too much from Bacon.

When was the heyday of Alchemy?  When does chemistry begin?  I seem to remember that Parcelsus offered a "more Christian" alternative to the four humors, thus breaking medicine away from Galen.


First I'd start with the idea of "form" and the material reality of what form was to Plato and Aristotle. A rock has weight and it can be hurled into flight , maintain its speed then eventually drop to the ground in a predictable way. Every form has attributes and Rationalism states that laws of thought conform to laws of things. There was no major split on this idea between Plato and Aristotle that I'm aware of.



Empiricism tells us to check our thoughts against data so that we may know how to think about the trajectory of the rock based on the data. Bacon's response to Descartes work in mathematics as a certainty, a truly reasoned knowledge, may have inspired his idea of "nature annoyed." Bacon wanted to arrange circumstances that could produce a yes or no answer, pure knowledge. Increasing interest in the "How" question, how does an inclined plane work, how do the heavenly bodies travel? etc.



For Aristotle teleological (goal driven) symbolism was important and nonmaterial things possessed a quality that was the essence of what they were and "Why" they existed. The rock falls because it is seeking its place. There was also the idea of Tacit Knowing -you could call it a Gestalt or an inborn subconscious understanding of the "Participating Awareness" Animism, intercommunication of all the earth, its creatures, celestial bodies and the gods. This is how the Alchemist was operating, think of Nostradamus peering into his copper bowl of water and having revelations. The mechanical world deteriorated the Alchemist's and Galileo ended ideas of Aristotle's teleological properties. It no longer mattered why things fell, we needed to know how. I think that is what your asking about Aristotle.



Heyday of Alchemy..I can't say. Did it start with the Druids? The Gnostics? The Cathars took their name from the Greek katharos -pure. It led to the word Ketzer, German for heretic.
*correction"ketzer" is German for "purity"

I'll do some digging












Edited by Vanuatu - 31 Mar 2015 at 18:53
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The origins of Alchemy in Egypt (Alexandria) in late antiquity (3rd-4th c. BC??), Zosimos is mentioned in The Story of Alchemy and Early Chemistry (Stillman).  Not a book I would particularly recommend, but it is on my shelf and thus handy.  Al-chemy is the Arabic version of the Greek word.  But Plato, and Hesiod before that wax poetic on (some of) the different metals representing the Ages of Man.  I would love to connect it to Pythagoras of Samos, but I am not sure that is possible.  I didn't know Cathars came from katharos.  Learn something new every day:)

When Galileo talked about falling objects, for the Aristotelians he was talking about the most trivial kind of thing.  The natures of plants and animals, and especially of man were much more important to them.  For the Aristotelians, Galileo, his mathematics and his Copernicanism (also called Pythagoreanism, at the time), were a bother to them.  Furthermore, he was a talented writer and so that made him into a bigger "troublemaker" for them.  And so they went after him, with a heresy trial.

Looking at Bacon from another angle helps me put him into better perspective,  Thank you.

Btw, never tried whips and chains, although the fact that I can tolerate being wrapped up in C-Pap hoses makes me wonder if I have a secret 'bondage' fetish<grin>.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 15:29
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I have studied Francis Bacon lately, but I don't feel like I have a good grasp on him.  i'm not disagreeing with you, but what do you mean by "how" and "why"?  How is inductive rather than deductive?  why means loosing the final cause of Aristotelian philosophy?  is that what you are referring to? please put in your own words, if you would.  Maybe I'm expecting too much from Bacon.

When was the heyday of Alchemy?  When does chemistry begin?  I seem to remember that Parcelsus offered a "more Christian" alternative to the four humors, thus breaking medicine away from Galen.


Hi, I'm wondering what you think a 'heyday' means in this discussion. Would it be the time of the most far reaching and influential Alchemists? Or those who operated quietly for great uninterrupted periods? Or are you thinking of Jung?!

Chemistry seems an outgrowth of Alchemy. Did that occur in China, Egypt, Arabia or the British Isles? Roger Bacon and Isaac Newton didn't call themselves Alchemists but some have described them in that language. Newton's posthumous publications indicate his continued interest in Alchemy, once a Hermetic..

Please elaborate on Parcelsus, thanks

Edited by Vanuatu - 27 Feb 2015 at 15:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 15:53
I just have faint memories of Paracelsus from a class I took 15-20 years ago.  He had a three part view of medicine instead of the four humors, and I seem to remember that one reason why he was significant was that he broke with Galen, by advocating a more "Christianized" view of health.

Of course, the "Aristotelian" view in the 16th century was not just Aristotle,  It was Ptolemy and Galen too.

One might say the "heyday" of the sailing ship was when sailing ships were at their biggest, most sophisticated point.  In other words, the time before they started being replaced by steam ships.

The "heyday" of Alchemy would be when the most influential and, I would guess, most flamboyant alchemists were getting royal sponsors.  When the most activity of alchemy was going on.  
(note, I may be using the word heyday wrong).  Whether they were the "purest" alchemists might be another question.  The heyday is when alchemy is most influential in society.

I wasn't thinking of Jung.  I know _of_ Jung, but have not read much of his work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 2015 at 16:23
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I just have faint memories of Paracelsus from a class I took 15-20 years ago.  He had a three part view of medicine instead of the four humors, and I seem to remember that one reason why he was significant was that he broke with Galen, by advocating a more "Christianized" view of health.

Of course, the "Aristotelian" view in the 16th century was not just Aristotle,  It was Ptolemy and Galen too.

One might say the "heyday" of the sailing ship was when sailing ships were at their biggest, most sophisticated point.  In other words, the time before they started being replaced by steam ships.

The "heyday" of Alchemy would be when the most influential and, I would guess, most flamboyant alchemists were getting royal sponsors.  When the most activity of alchemy was going on.  
(note, I may be using the word heyday wrong).  Whether they were the "purest" alchemists might be another question.  The heyday is when alchemy is most influential in society.

I wasn't thinking of Jung.  I know _of_ Jung, but have not read much of his work.


So would you say Hermes or a reluctant Isaac Newton?

Jung included Alchemy in his work on the Psyche and the collective unconscious. Freud hated that it ended their friendship.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2015 at 05:26
Are you asking me who is the purest alchemist?  Hermes is the god of alchemy, Hermes Trismagistus (Hermes Thrice-greatest)= the Greek name for Thoth.

Galileo ended his friendship with Johannes Kepler because Kepler continued to support Tycho Brahe.
"great men" are often poor examples for friendship.  Jobs was the greater visionary, but Gates was the better friend, or so I hear.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2015 at 16:10
Ficino had an amazing life and many good friends that he wrote to often. He came up with notion of Platonic love, at least in writing.
He truly valued his friends even those who disagreed with him. This is sadly lacking in our time.

Marsilio Ficino (Italian: Latin name: Marsilius Ficinus; 19 October 1433 – 1 October 1499)

His letters, extending over the years 1474–1494, survive and have been published. He also wrote De amore (1484) and the influential De vita libri tres (Three books on life.) De vita, published in 1489, provides a great deal of curious contemporary medical and astrological advice for maintaining health and vigor, as well as espousing the Neoplatonist view of the world's ensoulment and its integration with the human soul:


There will be some men or other, superstitious and blind, who see life plain in even the lowest animals and the meanest plants, but do not see life in the heavens or the world ... Now if those little men grant life to the smallest particles of the world, what folly! what envy! neither to know that the Whole, in which 'we live and move and have our being,' is itself alive, nor to wish this to be so.[6]

One metaphor for this integrated "aliveness" is Ficino's astrology.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Ficino%2c+Marsilio
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2015 at 07:10
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Ficino 
He truly valued his friends even those who disagreed with him. This is sadly lacking in our time.
 

I am not sure I agree;) despite popular opinion most people value people who compliment their personality, not people who mirror it.  Difference allows for a dialogue, a dialectic to develop.

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Marsilio Ficino (Italian: Latin name: Marsilius Ficinus; 19 October 1433 – 1 October 1499)

His letters, extending over the years 1474–1494, survive and have been published. He also wrote De amore (1484) and the influential De vita libri tres (Three books on life.) De vita, published in 1489, provides a great deal of curious contemporary medical and astrological advice for maintaining health and vigor, as well as espousing the Neoplatonist view of the world's ensoulment and its integration with the human soul:

There will be some men or other, superstitious and blind, who see life plain in even the lowest animals and the meanest plants, but do not see life in the heavens or the world ... Now if those little men grant life to the smallest particles of the world, what folly! what envy! neither to know that the Whole, in which 'we live and move and have our being,' is itself alive, nor to wish this to be so.[6]
What does it mean "to see life plain in even the lowest animals and the meanest plants" (cacti??).
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:


One metaphor for this integrated "aliveness" is Ficino's astrology.

I think, it would be called the Gaia hypothesis today?
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:



Edited by franciscosan - 08 May 2015 at 02:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2015 at 06:52
Nice quote from Giordamo Bruno poor suffering bastard at the hands of the Inquisition. He also talked about the simultaneity of past present and future.

"I can imagine an infinite number of worlds like the earth, with a Garden of Eden on each one. In all these Gardens of Eden, half the Adams and Eves will not eat the fruit of knowledge, but half will. But half of infinity is infinity, so an infinite number of worlds will fall from grace and there will be an infinite number of crucifixions. Therefore, either there is one unique Jesus who goes from one world to another, or there are an infinite number of Jesuses. Since a single Jesus visiting an infinite number of earths one at a time would take an infinite amount of time, there must be an infinite number of Jesuses. Therefore, God must create an infinite number of Christs."

He had courage enough to speak and write about the multiverse theory in the 16th century. The theory shared by Einstein and now all of quantum physics.

The Inquisition understood that Heresy threatens the existence of organized religion. What comes from the Self where no one can live with the denial of truth?
Free thinking, speech and courage, all are very dangerous they hinder the controlling elements of conditioning.   

“Movement….does not come to bodies from outside; they have it in themselves, for every body is animated by its own internal principle of motion, its “soul”, the cosmic soul present in everything without suffering division or fragmentation. Not only is this soul in every single body, but it animates all the elementary particles of matter as well” (p83).
http://greenspirit.org.uk/bookreviews/2012/01/%E2%80%98the-acentric-labyrinth-giordano-bruno%E2%80%99s-prelude-to-contemporary-cosmology%E2%80%99-by-ramon-mendoza/http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_giordano.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2015 at 03:19
There is a "conservative" virtue called "prudence."  With prudence, the individual has enough wisdom not to piss off the powers that be.  Bruno lacked any prudence, from what I hear he was wonderful, but he was like a falling star, radiant, but he "burned" himself out (ok, bad joke).  Point is, though, that maybe one should be circumspect with the truth.  That might seem difficult today, because we all worship honesty and the truth.  But really we usually only worship the truth that we want to hear.  We still have political correctness and "litmus tests" concerning beliefs.

Maybe the truth is like the sun, something that if you look directly at it, you go blind, like Galileo did.
We tend to think that the truth is for everybody, maybe it is not.  "You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!"(from 'A Few Good Men', i think...).  If the truth is powerful, then maybe there is a price involved in finding it.  I think that we can say Bruno found something, and definitely payed the price.

Ancient and Medieval philosophers believed that there was the exoteric and the esoteric level of various ancient and medieval writers.  Modernity, however, believes that there is only one level, different degrees to that level but only one level.  For the esotericist there is a gulf between the novice and the master.  For the modern, there is only the exoteric, albeit with different complexities.  Therefore, the exoteric/esoteric interpretation, often does not get recognition at all.
Moses Maimonides talks about the truth being like an orb that has silver filagree on the outside and gold on the inside.  If you just glance at it, or don't look closely, you see the beauty of the silver, but if you look at it closely you notice that underneath the silver, one sees gold.  Of course, you could point out to others that there is gold underneath, but at the same time, maybe the point is that instead of telling them, they should be looking for it themselves.
Literary criticism, say in the former USSR, operated similarly, you could not directly speak out against the regime, but you could do an interpretation of Pushkin or Tolstoy, or so forth, and get your message across through carefully 'writing between the lines,' so that someone steeped in Pushkin could read your essay, and get your message carefully laid in the larger article. 
Leo Strauss, who I mention elsewhere, has a couple of essays, "Exoteric teaching" (I think that its 'teaching'), and "Reading between the Lines."  I seem to remember that "reading between the lines"  (or is it 'writing...'? is the more accessible of these two articles.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2015 at 17:53
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:



Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Ficino 
He truly valued his friends even those who disagreed with him. This is sadly lacking in our time.
 

I am not sure I agree;) despite popular opinion most people value people who compliment their personality, not people who mirror it.  Difference allows for a dialogue, a dialectic to develop.

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Marsilio Ficino (Italian: Latin name: Marsilius Ficinus; 19 October 1433 – 1 October 1499)

His letters, extending over the years 1474–1494, survive and have been published. He also wrote De amore (1484) and the influential De vita libri tres (Three books on life.) De vita, published in 1489, provides a great deal of curious contemporary medical and astrological advice for maintaining health and vigor, as well as espousing the Neoplatonist view of the world's ensoulment and its integration with the human soul:

There will be some men or other, superstitious and blind, who see life plain in even the lowest animals and the meanest plants, but do not see life in the heavens or the world ... Now if those little men grant life to the smallest particles of the world, what folly! what envy! neither to know that the Whole, in which 'we live and move and have our being,' is itself alive, nor to wish this to be so.[6]
What does it mean "to see life plain in even the lowest animals and the meanest plants" (cacti??).
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:


One metaphor for this integrated "aliveness" is Ficino's astrology.

I think, it would be called the Gaia hypothesis today?
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:





Don't laugh at cacti, they have complex communication skills. Gaia hypothesis yes but I think he also meant swords, tables , books etc.

"Plants might be able to eavesdrop on their neighbors and use the sounds they "hear" to guide their own growth, according to a new study that suggests plants use acoustic signaling to communicate with one another."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/13/130507-talking-chili-plant-communication-science/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2015 at 23:58
what?  isn't that what "mean plants" means, spiny, prickly cacti? ;)

At Dodona there was an oracular shrine dedicated to Zeus, where you would go into
an oak grove and get your prophecy from the rustling of the leaves.

But yes, trees and other plants are "aware" in some fashion, but what that means,
I have little idea.  They are alive, they grow, they track the sun....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2015 at 03:51
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/what-plants-talk-about-video-full-episode/8243/

PBS "What Plants Talk About"

Wonder what a Venus Flytrap talks about. Plants talk about getting rid of insects, answer distress calls from other plants and grow towards beneficial symbiotic relationships.

Druids must have had similar Oak Grove chats. This information was not for everyone. Even after Sumerian writing, priestly secrets were kept unless they had to be written.

Bruno was a savant, he never had a reason not to say what he understood to be true. He was an early supporter of Galileo and Tycho Brahe. Not a scientist but maybe an Edgar Cayce kind of psychic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2017 at 01:02
I think that you have a mistaken idea of science in the time of the Middle Ages/ Renaissance/ Reformation/ Scientific Revolution.  Nobody was a scientist, by our standards.  In that time period, they called it "natural philosophy."  Newton was the Lucasian(??) professor of Natural philosophy (as Hawking is today).  But today, the name is a holdover from the past whereas then it really was a branch of philosophy.  Although sometimes I think "philosophy" is what is left over from what society considers standard.  I suspect that it is the tail that eventually wags the dog.
Scientists were kind of fruit loops, not only Giodorno Bruno, but Kepler's Pythagoreanism, Newton's magic and alchemy, Paracelsus and alchemy.  One wonders if they were (to some degree) wrong then, or if scientists, in their tameness today are wrong now.  Maybe they were 'crazy' in the Scientific Revolution (Brahe's silver nose), but working off of seemingly nothing, they built a lot.  Is it just that more people are tame these days, or is there a strong pressure for conformity.  By conformity, I don't mean giving a d--- who whomever sleeps with, I am talking about a conformity of thought.  Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Copernicus, Brahe were on the edge, but now we think of them as mainstream.  What is on the edge today, that will become the norm?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2017 at 02:30
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I think that you have a mistaken idea of science in the time of the Middle Ages/ Renaissance/ Reformation/ Scientific Revolution.  Nobody was a scientist, by our standards.  In that time period, they called it "natural philosophy."  Newton was the Lucasian(??) professor of Natural philosophy (as Hawking is today).  But today, the name is a holdover from the past whereas then it really was a branch of philosophy.  Although sometimes I think "philosophy" is what is left over from what society considers standard.  I suspect that it is the tail that eventually wags the dog.
Scientists were kind of fruit loops, not only Giodorno Bruno, but Kepler's Pythagoreanism, Newton's magic and alchemy, Paracelsus and alchemy.  One wonders if they were (to some degree) wrong then, or if scientists, in their tameness today are wrong now.  Maybe they were 'crazy' in the Scientific Revolution (Brahe's silver nose), but working off of seemingly nothing, they built a lot.  Is it just that more people are tame these days, or is there a strong pressure for conformity.  By conformity, I don't mean giving a d--- who whomever sleeps with, I am talking about a conformity of thought.  Galileo, Kepler, Newton, Copernicus, Brahe were on the edge, but now we think of them as mainstream.  What is on the edge today, that will become the norm?
Your quote from the thread franciscosan;
"There is a "conservative" virtue called "prudence."  With prudence, the individual has enough wisdom not to piss off the powers that be.  Bruno lacked any prudence, from what I hear he was wonderful, but he was like a falling star, radiant, but he "burned" himself out (ok, bad joke).  Point is, though, that maybe one should be circumspect with the truth.  That might seem difficult today, because we all worship honesty and the truth.  But really we usually only worship the truth that we want to hear.  We still have political correctness and "litmus tests" concerning beliefs.

Maybe the truth is like the sun, something that if you look directly at it, you go blind, like Galileo did.
We tend to think that the truth is for everybody, maybe it is not.  "You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!"(from 'A Few Good Men', i think...).  If the truth is powerful, then maybe there is a price involved in finding it.  I think that we can say Bruno found something, and definitely payed the price."

Agree. I am not sure why you think I have mistaken the essence (or idea?) of early scientific expression. 

I don't suggest that Bruno shares a likeness to modern science or even to Bacon's natura vexta.
Bruno is all heart, Bacon was all ambition and conformity and that "Method" has prevailed and devalued the spirituality of intellectual pursuits. Bacon dogmatized science the way Rome dogmatized the religious experience. Order and rules into intellectual pursuits both of the scientific and religious nature limited the dreamer or at least what a dreamer could discuss openly. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2017 at 23:05
A story from the Middle ages- Medical school anatomical demonstration. The surgeon cuts open the corpse with one hand holding a copy of Galen's 'Anatomy' in the other. He then removes an organ and explains 'this is the liver' while holding up a kidney.

Occult practice, magic and alchemy are the beginning of experimental science. 16th century science has less to do with the natural world than the works of 'Magi.' Even UnContacted tribes know where the liver is and understand the extraordinary value of consuming it. It's both physically and ceremoniously significant.

The Italian thinkers of the late 15th century are disillusioned with Scholasticism and turn to magic and have less interest in the detached mechanical view of nature that Bacon wanted to construct. Have you read Bacon's essay "Of Ambition?"


Edited by Vanuatu - 30 Apr 2017 at 23:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2017 at 02:13
Thankfully it was a corpse.

I could well imagine laying on the operating table, wide awake, and a surgeon standing over me with an instruction book in one hand and a scalpel in the other.
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2017 at 03:24
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Thankfully it was a corpse.

I could well imagine laying on the operating table, wide awake, and a surgeon standing over me with an instruction book in one hand and a scalpel in the other.
And Galen only dissected two human corpses;

Contexts -- Science -- Biology -- Anatomy -- Dissection

The dissection of human cadavers was controversial from ancient times, and was a topic fraught with controversy and popular superstition in Mary Shelley's day.

The taboo against desecrating the bodies of the dead goes back many centuries; it was prohibited by both ancient Greek and Roman religions. The first recorded instance of medical dissection of human bodies is in the sixth century BCE, when the Greek philosopher Alcmaeon began his research. In 275 BCE, Herophilus of Chalcedon (a follower of Hippocrates) founded the first school of anatomy at the Museum of Alexandria, encouraging his students to overcome their fear of dissecting human bodies.

In the year 30 C.E., the Roman physician Aulus Cornelius Celsus published an important collection of Greek medical writings, in which he suggested that "to open the bodies of the dead is necessary for learners." In 180 C.E., the Greek physician Galen followed Celsus's advice when he first published the results of his work on anatomy, based on two clandestine dissections.

The taboo continued into the post-Classical era. Christian doctrine promises the resurrection of the body, which many thought to be impossible if a body were anatomized. The Council of Tours in 1163 led to the Church's formulation of a prohibition against human dissections in the hopes of curtailing the practice of dismembering and boiling the remains of Crusaders killed in battle before their shipment home. But physicians at Salerno's medical school defied Church authority in 1235, and William of Saliceto published a record of his dissections in Chirurgia in 1275.

http://www.thingsrevealed.net/dscrtbacn.htm


Comparison and Contrast of the Methods of Descartes and Bacon

The differences between the methods of Descartes and Bacon are many and deep, but there are also many things they have in common. Each of these pioneers advocated the complete overthrow of all the methods and most of the results of the authorities that came before them. Both of these men demanded a new standard of precision, since there were so many examples of sloppy reasoning and observation that littered the path of the science of the past. There was also a common commitment to doubt in general and a concern about the "deceptions of the senses" (3, p. 474). In addition, they believed in the reduction of problems to their smallest constituent parts as a general principle. Descartes and Bacon each saw himself primarily in the role of an advocate for science and therefore they contributed very little to any particular field of empirical science (5). Finally, both of these men were uniquely gifted to promote the particular aspects of science that were eventually crucial to its advance.

Galen's Goof



Edited by Vanuatu - 01 May 2017 at 03:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2017 at 03:54
It's strange, to disect a body for scientific purposes was, at the very least, frowned upon, but not long after this, it was perfectly OK to hang, draw and quarter a persons body as punishment.

Oh well!
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2017 at 04:08
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

It's strange, to disect a body for scientific purposes was, at the very least, frowned upon, but not long after this, it was perfectly OK to hang, draw and quarter a persons body as punishment.

Oh well!


History of Medieval Inquisition Torture - Heresy
The Medieval Inquisition was the institution of the Roman Catholic Church for combating or suppressing heresy. Heresy is defined as an opinion or belief that which was held deliberately and with knowledge against orthodox church teachings. The Medieval Inquisition was a series of Inquisitions  by the Catholic Church to suppress heresy. The first Medieval Inquisition was established in the year 1184 against the Cathar movement. Torture was used after 1252 when Pope Innocent IV issued a papal bull which authorized the use of torture by inquisitors.

Medieval Inquisition Torture Methods - No Bloodshed, Mutilation or Death
No torture methods were allowed in an Inquisition that resulted in bloodshed, mutilation or death. A common form of torture was hanging the accused by their wrists, hoisted above ground and then having weights hung from their ankles. This torture method was known as the Judas Cradle and a similar method was called the Strappado. The rules restricting bloodshed extended to the preferred execution method of men or women who were proclaimed as heretics by the Inquisition was therefore being burnt to death.

List of Medieval Inquisition Torture Methods and Devices
The following list of Medieval Inquisition Torture Methods provides an insight to the devices and methods used by the Medieval Inquisition:

  • Judas Cradle
  • Strappado
  • The Boot or Spanish boot
  • Brodequin
  • Branding Irons
  • The Collar
  • Rack
  • Thumbscrews
  • The Wheel

  • Foot press
  • Foot screw
  • Heretic's fork
  • Water Torture
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2017 at 04:21
Beats watching Saturday Night Live I suppose.

But what hypocracy! The Church, formed to do Gods will, to help humankind, to provide a moral compass and in general, do good works, instead sets about flaying, racking, hanging, torturing and burning it's flock, all because of a difference of opinion.

What happened to the loving and non-judgemental God?

And how many people died because of the church's attitude towards some of the sciences?

"You say you want a revolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
You tell me that it's evolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world"
The Beatles


I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2017 at 21:08
I think that you will find that the stern, punishing God came first, and has been moderated over history.  Nobody died in the Middle Ages that wouldn't be dead today, (except the Highlander, and there can be only One).  You talk as if the Church and science were different institutions, but they weren't.  When the Church was the only game in town (which in Europe, it was conceptually and practically, if not literally), most of the evils in society are going to come from the Church, as are most of the goods.  People like to choose, they think that they can select the Sistine Chapel and Gregorian chants, but not the inquisition.  It is a package deal, you can't just cherry pick, or rather you can, but only from a historical perspective, if you are _honest_, you will try to understand that the bad comes with the good, in our era, just as in theirs.  But we don't have as much perspective about our era, as we think we do about other, historical eras.
There was some question in ancient times about the efficacy of dissections, they thought that looking at a dead example did not necessarily help with a live example.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2017 at 02:36
Franciscosan
Sorry, I cant agree. Holy Mother Church (The Pope) actively stifled some of the sciences, medicine being one of them. If medical resaerch had not been stifled, who knows what the result would have been. It's possible that the causes of plagues and other diseases could have been recognised earlier and methods developed to combat them.

We just don't know, but to say that no one died who wouldn't have died anyway, imo, is just wrong.

How many were persecuted for daring to suggest that the earth revolved around the sun, or that the earth was in fact round, not flat? (It is round, isn't it? Wink )
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2017 at 02:50
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I think that you will find that the stern, punishing God came first, and has been moderated over history.
  
God had more minions over time to do his bidding, so maybe he mellowed out.

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Nobody died in the Middle Ages that wouldn't be dead today, (except the Highlander, and there can be only One).
 
Haggis !
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

you talk as if the Church and science were different institutions, but they weren't.
Right, way back when kidneys were livers.
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

When the Church was the only game in town (which in Europe, it was conceptually and practically, if not literally), most of the evils in society are going to come from the Church, as are most of the goods.
No argument there, your point?

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

 People like to choose, they think that they can select the Sistine Chapel and Gregorian chants, but not the inquisition.  It is a package deal, you can't just cherry pick, or rather you can, but only from a historical perspective, if you are _honest_, you will try to understand that the bad comes with the good, in our era, just as in theirs.  But we don't have as much perspective about our era, as we think we do about other, historical eras.
There was some question in ancient times about the efficacy of dissections, they thought that looking at a dead example did not necessarily help with a live example.
The reason the Church was against dissection was because the body had to reunite with the soul at the end of time , Apocalypse? 
Unless you were a heretic. In which case -No Soup for You!
What exactly are you trying to say? You want to remind us of the 'good' Church but the discussion was about exploring an alternative view. How different the world might have been if people were allowed to pursue spiritual experiences such as ecstatic trance. 'Ascent' the journey of the soul through meditation along with contemplative prayer, chanting and or music was a natural human experience of great value. Pythagoras understood the power of this vehicle as did the Cathars. 
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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