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Sassanids: Middle East Rulers

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    Posted: 19 Jun 2009 at 06:59
Sassanian (aka Sassanids) were one of the most famous and strongest Persian dynasties who ruled over Middle east, Central Asia, part of South Asia and fought the Roman empires for dominating the Near East, Caucasus and North Africa for centuries. In case of civilization they were rival to Romans from 2nd to 6th centuries. Please come here and discuss about Sassanid empire in different angle.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2009 at 10:07
Your maps misleading
They never had all those territories at the same time, for example, they lost Yeman to Eithopia before they captured Egypt.

I'm also not sure about the territories marked in Sindh and Gurjat
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harburs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2009 at 10:39
Then plz read about Sassanid history a little bit moreWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2009 at 10:47
What were the cultural, political, and military characteristics of the Sassanid Empire compared to its predecessor: the Parthian Empire?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2009 at 13:41
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Your maps misleading
They never had all those territories at the same time, for example, they lost Yemen to Ethiopia before they captured Egypt.
I'm also not sure about the territories marked in Sindh and Gujarat
 
You've made a valid point, Omar, and I suspect that the map projects more the areas of Sassanid military activity rather than the territories of continued political control. Their presence in both Syria and Egypt was transitory since victory at Alexandria in AD 616 became defeat shortly thereafter as the Emperor Heraclius thrust deep into Mesopotamia in AD 627-629. True, much like the maps drawn of Europe in 1942, with the large swath across the continent showing Nazi control or dominance, I believe this map of the Sassanids captures the moment in AD 616 and the high tide in the reign of Khosro II (591-628). However, I admit I am baffled by your reference to the Yemen, since it was during the rule of Khosro I that the Sassanids broke Abyssinian (Axumite) control there (which essentially began in the 4th century). How that was achieved might explain the nature of the map you've challenged. The aforementioned ruler did dispatch a Sassanid force to the Yemen in support of local resistance to continued Abyssinian rule there. Subsequently, "vassalage" to the Sassanids became direct rule in AD 597-598 until the advent of Islam with the conversion of the last Sassanid "governor": Badhan. Muslim historical tradition has an interesting take on the Islamization of the Yemen that parallels the earlier Christian narratives on the conversion of "barbarians".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2009 at 13:56
Originally posted by calvo calvo wrote:

What were the cultural, political, and military characteristics of the Sassanid Empire compared to its predecessor: the Parthian Empire?
 
How about starting with the distinction between the organization of Parthia (which continued more as a conglomeration of kingdoms in tributary status than a consolidated state) and that of the Sassanid "empire" that did develop a new bureaucracy and a rather effective tax system under centralized control? Further, one might speculate on the "alien" origins of the Hellenized Parni in contrast to the more "orthodox" Parsi status of the Sassanids...


Edited by drgonzaga - 19 Jun 2009 at 13:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2009 at 14:08
The map is accurate depending on how it is introduced. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2009 at 14:13
The Sassanids went much deeper than that in India, they held Punjab for a bit, and operated in Gujarat for a while as well. But showing that is like showing a map of all the territories ever held by the British empire; misleading.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2009 at 15:38
regardless of that map accuracy, the Sassanids were a major power in the region, similar to the Achaemenids  , also somehow the fall of the Sassanids was similar to the fall of the Achaemenids, few battles and the whole empire falls.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2009 at 02:15
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

However, I admit I am baffled by your reference to the Yemen, since it was during the rule of Khosro I that the Sassanids broke Abyssinian (Axumite) control there (which essentially began in the 4th century). How that was achieved might explain the nature of the map you've challenged. The aforementioned ruler did dispatch a Sassanid force to the Yemen in support of local resistance to continued Abyssinian rule there. Subsequently, "vassalage" to the Sassanids became direct rule in AD 597-598 until the advent of Islam with the conversion of the last Sassanid "governor": Badhan. Muslim historical tradition has an interesting take on the Islamization of the Yemen that parallels the earlier Christian narratives on the conversion of "barbarians".

Oops, I seem to have manged to confuse myself somewhat.
The Persians defeated the Ethiopians in 570 however they failed to establish permanent control in Yeman. A number of independent kingdoms took over that were loosely associated with the Sassanids. I think its wrong to say that the Sassanids had direct rule over Yeman in 610-630, but they certainly had indirect influence. It is also wrong to say that the Sassanids ever had direct control over the amount of Yeman that is coloured in on the map, although for the 30 years or so after 570 it is probably fair to colour in parts of Yeman.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2009 at 18:37
The Sassanid empire's military engineers built some of the ancient world's largest defensive walls and fortresses, really monumental architecture. 
 
Sassanid Fortress - Derbent, Russia
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2009 at 15:02
The map is inconsistant. Not all these places were ruled at the same time and some were only ruled for months.
 
Anyway the Sassanids had great potential but their doom was actually the reason for their success. Their decentralisation.
 
The empror was really a Shahinshah, a king of several kings who only contribute if the empror, like Khosro, was powerful. When the Arabs first came the response was only made by those provincial rulers like Hormozan and the arab king of Hira. Only when Yazdgerd came with the full support of nobles did the Sassanids unite and by then it was too late. Qadisiyah and then the fall of Ahvaz (Hormozan) doomed the Sassanids who fragmented never to unite again.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2009 at 16:48
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

However, I admit I am baffled by your reference to the Yemen, since it was during the rule of Khosro I that the Sassanids broke Abyssinian (Axumite) control there (which essentially began in the 4th century). How that was achieved might explain the nature of the map you've challenged. The aforementioned ruler did dispatch a Sassanid force to the Yemen in support of local resistance to continued Abyssinian rule there. Subsequently, "vassalage" to the Sassanids became direct rule in AD 597-598 until the advent of Islam with the conversion of the last Sassanid "governor": Badhan. Muslim historical tradition has an interesting take on the Islamization of the Yemen that parallels the earlier Christian narratives on the conversion of "barbarians".

Oops, I seem to have manged to confuse myself somewhat.
The Persians defeated the Ethiopians in 570 however they failed to establish permanent control in Yeman. A number of independent kingdoms took over that were loosely associated with the Sassanids. I think its wrong to say that the Sassanids had direct rule over Yeman in 610-630, but they certainly had indirect influence. It is also wrong to say that the Sassanids ever had direct control over the amount of Yeman that is coloured in on the map, although for the 30 years or so after 570 it is probably fair to colour in parts of Yeman.
 
But Omar, how is that map on the Sassanids really any different from one of the Roman Empire at the time of Trajan?  Or for that matter a map of Africa in 1912, where colors indicated little more than questionable rule over wide swaths of territory. That the Sassanids in one way or another moved through the colored areas is a given, but we should not try to impose contemporary definitions of what constitutes government on past historical realities. Certainly, one has to keep in mind how "local" realities could employ an "empire" to consolidate its own interests. We've had a perfect example of such in our own times, for example the Al-Sabahs in Kuwait!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2009 at 09:18
The map seems to show every region ever ruled by the Sassanids, regardless of for how long. It's interesting enough but shouldn't be used without first explaining what it shows, otherwise it could give the impression one is trying to falsify the size of the empire for the sake of aggrandizing it.

I don't know much about the eastern and southern front, but I know for sure those western territories that initially belonged to the Roman Empire were only "ruled" ever so briefly while the empire collapsed from within under the disastrous reign of Phocas, allowing the Persians to overrun the eastern provinces. As soon as Heraclius took the reins the Persians were driven back and before long Roman soldiers were besieging Ctesiphon - so perhaps we should draw a map of the Roman Empire that includes all the Sassanid territories held by the Romans at that point? Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2009 at 09:28

I see a person iceskating, Turkiye the head, Greater Iran the body(with a long raincoat), Yemen/Pakistan the legs  and Egypt & Georgia/Armenia the arms( for the right iceskating persepective Egypt has to be the left arm)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2009 at 09:33
Wow, that's an even worse stretch! LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2009 at 09:53
lol it lacks realism but still to me the map resembles an iceskating man wearing a raincoatSmile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2009 at 22:14
Derbent (Darband: literally 'door band [lock]') is a spectacular Iranian edifice in Dagestan built to check (Turkic) Hun incursions.  I remember reading that its construction was even in part paid for by the Byzantines.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2009 at 11:48
Derbent, founded in the late 6th century by Kavadh I and fortified by his son Khosrau I, seems to have kept its military importance throughout centuries due to its geopolitical location at the border of every empire in the region. Under the Sassanids it functioned as their northern outpost against the Turks, likewise under the Abassids following the Arab conquest. Derbent was later taken by the Timurids, and following their fall the Ottomans and Safavids waged war over it, with the Ottomans taking control of the city in 1583, but Derbent was retaken by the Persians in 1735, before finally becoming part of the Russian Empire in 1813. It remains part of Russia today.

Despite its impressive fortifications Derbent wasn't impregnable. I found a particularly evocative account of the Göktürk sack of Derbent in 627, written by an Armenian eyewitness:

"Like waves in the sea, the Turks fell on the town of Chora (Derbent) and destroyed it completely. Seeing the terrible threat posed by this vile, ugly horde of attackers, with their slanting and lidless eyes, and their flowing hair like that of women, the inhabitants were seized by terror. Especially terrifying were the archers, who were skillful and powerful, and rained arrows down like hail then, like savage wolves, shamelessly threw themselves on the people and mercilessly cut them down in the streets and squares of the town. They did not even take pity on the children who hugged their slaughtered mothers, but sucked the children's blood like milk."


Edited by Reginmund - 24 Jun 2009 at 11:49
Sing, goddess, of Achilles' ruinous anger
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And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Praetor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2009 at 22:11
Ah yes, the Western Gokturks (at the time of the sack of Derbent the Gokturk empire had split into Western and Eastern empires some time previously), they certainly had an interesting history with the Sassanians, at first allying with them to defeat and conquer their mutual enemies the Hepthalite's (otherwise known as the White Huns) being successful in this the two empires now possessed a common border and that has a habit of causing problems for obvius reasons. Two invasions by the Gokturks followed, both seem to have been resoundingly defeated.

Then the last great Byzantine-Persian war came by and the Gokturks didn't miss the oppurtunity to ally with Heraclius against the Sassanids, interestingly the principal ally of the Persians in this most epic final confrontation between them and the Romans were the Avars who it seems were hostile too and who were descended from a group of nomads that fled the hegemony of the expanding Gokturk Empire to eventually form their own empire in Europe, if so that and considering the fact that soon following this epic confrontation the Western Gokturk empire started to disintegrate, Sassanid Persia was conquered, Byzantium lost half or more of its territory and the Avars too began to decline makes for a situation that is interesting in an oddly poetic way (for lack of a better word).

And Zagros though I cannot recall reading that the Byzantines helped pay for Derbent specifically I feel I can back you up on principal as the Byzantines most certainly helped pay for Sassanid defenses in the Caucasus that were placed to repel Steppe invaders as a form of tribute for peace. From the looks of that fortress I can certainly understand why the Sassanids would want a little help paying for it.............

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2009 at 12:15
I can't believe how Iranians can claim anything in Derbent. :)

Only after 1900, it was ceded to Dagestan. You can look up for Derbent Khanate. And if you check, the inhabbitants is still majority Azeri.

Iran should really stop disorting Azerbaijans history, like if its not enough already.


Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 06 Aug 2009 at 19:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2009 at 20:42
Hey, guys, in the era of the Sassanids, these Azeri were probably Medes. Besides, "Iran" is a modern novelty anyway. Why pretty soon the area will be known as Ahminidijadistan...Evil Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easternbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2009 at 21:34
And Turkey Turks are probably Hellenic people  LOL
Yes there was a Khanat.Wasn't it ruled from the Afsharid dynasty?
The fortress was built by Sassanids and not by AzariansTongue





Edited by Easternbul - 06 Aug 2009 at 21:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harburs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 00:32
Originally posted by Emil_Diniyev Emil_Diniyev wrote:

I can't believe how Iranians can claim anything in Derbent. :)

Only after 1900, it was ceded to Dagestan. You can look up for Derbent Khanate. And if you check, the inhabbitants is still majority Azeri.

Iran should really stop disorting Azerbaijans history, like if its not enough already.
You can see what is written about Derbent or Darband in any reliable sources not your history books in your high school. Go out side of Azerbaijani history books and find the neutral side of the view instead of reading fabricated bias history which has been written by grey wolf and pan-turk historians in early days of Azerbaijan Republic. I don't know why you guys try this hard to hate and discredit your self in public eyes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harburs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 00:33
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

"Iran" is a modern novelty anyway.
Please enlighten us more about this sentence.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 00:34
What are you talking about, yes its also Grey-Wolf propaganda that Derbent is an ethnical Azeri area. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harburs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 00:37
Originally posted by Easternbul Easternbul wrote:

The fortress was built by Sassanids and not by AzariansTongue
Fortress was built by Sassanids? yes. If you by saying Azaris, mean Turks then your answer is => No.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harburs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 00:40
Originally posted by Emil_Diniyev Emil_Diniyev wrote:

What are you talking about, yes its also Grey-Wolf propaganda that Derbent is an ethnical Azeri area. LOL
You are 100% aware of what I am saying. I can say many example of propagandas they are spreading around in Azerbaijan. It is an easy task. Now tell me do you believe that the fortress has been build by Turks or Sassanids?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emil_Diniyev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 00:42
Its not about fortress but what I see is that Persians are actually trying to claim something in Derbent....And its not the first time I see here.

Wow, as if fabrication of South Azerbaijan was not enough, now you guys go all the way north.




Edited by Emil_Diniyev - 07 Aug 2009 at 00:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harburs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2009 at 00:51
Look your country's name was Aran before Russians change it to Azerbaijan. Russians took that part from Qajar dynasty and rename it as Azerbaijan as you know. So there is no fabricating part in Iran. If there was any fabrication it was in Russian part.

Edited by Suren - 15 Nov 2009 at 01:52
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