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religion and economics

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    Posted: 04 Aug 2019 at 09:27
How wealthy a person may become may depend on the person's religion.  

I am quoting from Max Weber's book "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism".

"A glance at the occupational statistics of any country of mixed religious composition brings to light with remarkable frequency a situation which has several times provoked discussion in the Catholic press and literature, and in Catholic congresses in Germany, namely, the fact that business leaders and owners of capital, as well as the higher grades of skilled labour, and even more the higher technically and commercially trained personnel of modern enterprises, are overwhelmingly Protestant."

Christianity as understood by Luther "Lutheranism" is a branch of Protestantism that would manifest a very different reality than Calvinism.  

Social unrest lead to Luther's "traditionalistic interpretation based on the idea of Providence.  The individual should remain once and for all in the station and calling in which God had placed him, and should retrain his worldly activity within limits imposed by his established station in life... a more and more intense belief in divine providence, which identified absolute obedience to God's will, with absolute acceptance of things as they were."  You might recollect this is a German religion and played in a role in the power of Hitler and the Nazi.  The people were being obedient to God with the belief God was in control while their country was dragged into hell.   

We might see a similarity between Lutheranism and the Amish

Quote   The Amish (/ˈɑːmɪʃ/; Pennsylvania German: Amisch; German: Amische) are a group of traditionalist Christian church fellowships with Swiss German Anabaptist origins. They are closely related to, but distinct from, Mennonite churches.

The Amish resist modernization and will not be adopting the ways of New York city any time soon.   

On the other hand, there are the Calvinist and related protestant groups, who are the wheeler and dealers of the opening paragraph embracing technology and mercantilism as wealth is understood as God's blessing.

"The Quaker ethic also holds that a man's life in his calling is an exercise in ascetic virtue, a proof of his state of grace through his conscientiousness, which is expressed in the care and method with which he purses his calling.  What God demands is not labour in itself, but rational labour in a calling.  In the Puritan concept of the calling the emphasis is always placed on this methodical character of worldly asceticism, not as with Luther, on the acceptance of the lot which God has irretrievably assigned to man."   

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the wealthiest of the Protestants.   That is the Mormons who settled by the Salt Lake in Utah.   They must be doing something right.    



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 21:00
Typically people don't let religion interfere with personal wealth. I'm reminded that Jesus is supposed to have said that a wealthy man has no more chance of getting into Heaven than a camel has of passing through the eye of a needle. If he indeed said this or something similar, one wonders if he was being a tad hypocritical given he was making some noises that suggested he wanted to be King of Judaea. But turning over the moneylender's tables in the temple was a publicity stunt more than any actual religious objection - he only did that once, right?
 
I'm reminded of a woman I knew who was proudly Christian. Not quite in your face, as it were, but always a comment ready and waiting for the unwary. Yet she was not averse to her husband becoming a successful businessman with his 'n hers Porsche's on the drive.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 01:58
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

  But turning over the moneylender's tables in the temple was a publicity stunt more than any actual religious objection - he only did that once, right?


He only does it once. Being an "Anointed" one meant much more in ancient Jerusalem than we accept today. In the old Jewish Law if a young boy/man was "anointed" no Jew would harm him. If he's anointed as a sort of hero it means he has a destiny that is tied into the future of all Jews. He's not anointed with a circle but with an "X".

The anointing of oil was said to impart the Spirit, like Pentecost story where Jesus becomes the source of supernatural light entering the apostles. 
In early Christianity based on Clement's writing, it could be inferred that the anointing of Jesus was more revered as an auspicious event than his Baptism.

The history of the anointing pre dates Christians, obviously. Horus is often depicted as being circled by oils it's the sign of a king. Jewish priests were anointed but the question of using actual oil or a balsamic mixture added to Old Testament story of perpetual oil from Exodus complicates the history.

If you go back to the Cathars, lol their ideas about the blood of Christ/body of Christ, hearken back to the really old days when oil was made of the fat of dead relatives mixed with spices and fragrance and so the oil itself becomes supernatural. 

There are pre-historic finds suggesting an ancient ritual possibly involving eating of flesh, not as a meal but as ritual. 
A Jewish priest would not break the law of harming an anointed one but they might conspire to have others condemn him.
 
Quote I'm reminded of a woman I knew who was proudly Christian. Not quite in your face, as it were, but always a comment ready and waiting for the unwary. Yet she was not averse to her husband becoming a successful businessman with his 'n hers Porsche's on the drive.
The idea that religious people reject saving money or earning money is absurd. The quote about money being the root of evil is not in the bible as far as I know. The Old Testament has law about spending and saving, how much you should save and under what circumstances would you use money. 
Good economic sense isn't lost on the religious people. Money is a bloody blessing if you want some quality of life. Perhaps greed is the prohibition from Christianity? 


Edited by Vanuatu - 07 Aug 2019 at 05:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 05:38
Southern France was a Cathar stronghold they had land, great wealth from old families going back to Charlemagne and thus influence with the aristocracy. It took a few hundred years to root them out as heretics. When they were overcome around 1208 Pope Honorious III 1216 installed the first order of the Dominicans monks their model was St Augustine. 

They were created to replace the Cathar influence among common people an order of preachers with a common message crafted by Rome. Certainly in those days the church imposed a vow of poverty on the monks and made the monks not of a 'house' as they were previously organized but as an army with allegiance to Rome. Oh and something vague about poverty being a virtue.

The idea that some branch of organized religion is or was being especially greedy wouldn't be news. Church of Rome as an institution was gilded flash and Egyptians loved gold. All empires can play this game, Bronze Age Palestinian bastards!!
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 11:35
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Typically people don't let religion interfere with personal wealth. I'm reminded that Jesus is supposed to have said that a wealthy man has no more chance of getting into Heaven than a camel has of passing through the eye of a needle. If he indeed said this or something similar, one wonders if he was being a tad hypocritical given he was making some noises that suggested he wanted to be King of Judaea. But turning over the moneylender's tables in the temple was a publicity stunt more than any actual religious objection - he only did that once, right?
 
I'm reminded of a woman I knew who was proudly Christian. Not quite in your face, as it were, but always a comment ready and waiting for the unwary. Yet she was not averse to her husband becoming a successful businessman with his 'n hers Porsche's on the drive.

I think the teachings of Jesus had a lot to do with my poverty.  Religion has been used to make the working class content to work for poverty wages.  This was more so in the past than the present.  The abundances following the second world war and change in education has dramatically changed our economy and culture.  When I came of age, women were to get married and care for their husbands and children, and there were not many jobs for them.  They were closed our some colleges and some professions.  If a woman didn't marry well, it was her fate and the fate of the children to be poor and she was to stay married.  When I did have to support my family I didn't have the completed education nor work experience to compete for good jobs, and when I asked for a better wage to do a care giving job so I could support my children, the reaction was complete discust!  Women are supposed to care for others because they are caring people, not to get rich.   I think Christianity has a lot to do with with these ideas, but Aristotle equating a man having a wife with having an oxen and a slave didn't help either.  Plenty of laws were opposed to women having liberty and earning good wages.  And I accepted it because Jesus was about caring for others, not getting rich.   I was even afraid of having money and possibly becoming immoral and less caring of the poor.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 12:15
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

  But turning over the moneylender's tables in the temple was a publicity stunt more than any actual religious objection - he only did that once, right?


He only does it once. Being an "Anointed" one meant much more in ancient Jerusalem than we accept today. In the old Jewish Law if a young boy/man was "anointed" no Jew would harm him. If he's anointed as a sort of hero it means he has a destiny that is tied into the future of all Jews. He's not anointed with a circle but with an "X".

The anointing of oil was said to impart the Spirit, like Pentecost story where Jesus becomes the source of supernatural light entering the apostles. 
In early Christianity based on Clement's writing, it could be inferred that the anointing of Jesus was more revered as an auspicious event than his Baptism.

The history of the anointing pre dates Christians, obviously. Horus is often depicted as being circled by oils it's the sign of a king. Jewish priests were anointed but the question of using actual oil or a balsamic mixture added to Old Testament story of perpetual oil from Exodus complicates the history.

If you go back to the Cathars, lol their ideas about the blood of Christ/body of Christ, hearken back to the really old days when oil was made of the fat of dead relatives mixed with spices and fragrance and so the oil itself becomes supernatural. 

There are pre-historic finds suggesting an ancient ritual possibly involving eating of flesh, not as a meal but as ritual. 
A Jewish priest would not break the law of harming an anointed one but they might conspire to have others condemn him.
 
Quote I'm reminded of a woman I knew who was proudly Christian. Not quite in your face, as it were, but always a comment ready and waiting for the unwary. Yet she was not averse to her husband becoming a successful businessman with his 'n hers Porsche's on the drive.
The idea that religious people reject saving money or earning money is absurd. The quote about money being the root of evil is not in the bible as far as I know. The Old Testament has law about spending and saving, how much you should save and under what circumstances would you use money. 
Good economic sense isn't lost on the religious people. Money is a bloody blessing if you want some quality of life. Perhaps greed is the prohibition from Christianity? 

The line about money being the root of all evil is in this quote.  Also what is said here supports what I said about accepting poverty as a matter of following Jesus.   

Quote We like our priest and nuns with vows of poverty or at least simple lives, and we tend to think that anyone working in and around the Church should be happy with low wages or find another career.  Our heroes are our saints.  If they began with wealth, they walked away from it.  The few kings and queens that became saints cared greatly for the poor and lived humbly. 

The Bible tells us: “For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil” (1 Timothy 6:10). Jesus said, “No one can serve two masters. You cannot serve both God and money” (Matthew 6:24). But is it possible to be a good Catholic and be rich?  

Our Catholic Catechism teaches that holiness comes from poverty of the heart. “Jesus enjoins his disciples to prefer him to everything and everyone, and bids them "renounce all that [they have]" for his sake and that of the Gospel.  Shortly before his passion, he gave them the example of the poor widow of Jerusalem who, out of her poverty, gave all that she had to live on. The precept of detachment from riches is obligatory for entrance into the Kingdom of heaven. (CCC 2544).

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/armstrong/that-awkward-relationship-between-catholics-and-money

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2019 at 05:18

The “Problem”

Have you ever heard of the phrase, “Money is the root of all evil”? This expression is derived from a passage of Scripture.

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil… (1 Timothy 6:10)

However, the Bible includes other statements that seem to contradict this one, such as the following:

…but money answers everything. (Ecclesiastes 10:19)

How can money be evil and yet be the answer to everything?

The Solution

Before considering this supposed contradiction, we must first note what this verse does not state. Paul did not write that money is the root of all evil, or even that the love of money is theroot of all evil, which would imply that greed is ultimately responsible for all evil done on the earth. Instead, we read that love of money is “a root of all kinds of evil.” In other words, people do all sorts of evil deeds because of a controlling desire for money.

Scripture never calls money inherently evil. In fact, wealth is often portrayed throughout God’s Word as a blessing from the Lord. For example, Psalm 112:3 describes the man who fears the Lord: “Wealth and riches are in his house, and his righteousness endures forever.” This is not a promise that God will make every Christian rich. However, physical rewards in this life often accompany righteous living because God always blesses His people—sometimes in material ways. James reminded believers that all blessings are from God: “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights” (James 1:17).


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2019 at 08:59
Thank you for starting the topic.Thumbs Up
The church we went to had a class system and it's own mini-economy and aristocracy. Some were more equal than others. There were some gems among the parish who picked up the slack for poor families. 
Capitalism gives individuals the power to give away lots of cash when politics is seen to be failing people. And they usually do. Remember Live Aid? Feed the World? Flashback to the 90's people were starving all over the world. We did fund raising through school/church, MTV was new!
Overall statistically capitalism has been the 'rising tide lifting all ships'



http://https://www.ecnmy.org/engage/we-asked-economics-of-religion-professor-to-explain-what-her-subject-actually-means/So religious issues end up being mediated by other factors, like education. If a woman is educated, she’s likely to have fewer children, whether or not she’s Hindu, Muslim, or whatever. So that might matter more – it’s not that religion isn’t important to her, but other factors may dominate even more.

What do you think people misunderstand about religion today?

One of the big assumptions people make about religion is that they might not realize how many people in the world actually ascribe to some kind of religious belief or religious faith. There’s been a lot of data coming out which shows that there are still some 5.8 billion people around the world who say they are religious – that’s huge, when you think about it.

The rich world is becoming less religious, and the developing world is becoming more religious. People sometimes think that religion’s influence is diminishing as economies grow, but that’s not what we’ve seen. We’ve actually seen a stronger influence of religion.

My view is that inequality is a big part of this story. It may not really be poverty that is driving the evolution of religion, but inequality. As inequality grows, the importance of religion does too.

Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 03:13
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Thank you for starting the topic.Thumbs Up
The church we went to had a class system and it's own mini-economy and aristocracy. Some were more equal than others. There were some gems among the parish who picked up the slack for poor families. 
Capitalism gives individuals the power to give away lots of cash when politics is seen to be failing people. And they usually do. Remember Live Aid? Feed the World? Flashback to the 90's people were starving all over the world. We did fund raising through school/church, MTV was new!
Overall statistically capitalism has been the 'rising tide lifting all ships'



http://https://www.ecnmy.org/engage/we-asked-economics-of-religion-professor-to-explain-what-her-subject-actually-means/So religious issues end up being mediated by other factors, like education. If a woman is educated, she’s likely to have fewer children, whether or not she’s Hindu, Muslim, or whatever. So that might matter more – it’s not that religion isn’t important to her, but other factors may dominate even more.

What do you think people misunderstand about religion today?

One of the big assumptions people make about religion is that they might not realize how many people in the world actually ascribe to some kind of religious belief or religious faith. There’s been a lot of data coming out which shows that there are still some 5.8 billion people around the world who say they are religious – that’s huge, when you think about it.

The rich world is becoming less religious, and the developing world is becoming more religious. People sometimes think that religion’s influence is diminishing as economies grow, but that’s not what we’ve seen. We’ve actually seen a stronger influence of religion.

My view is that inequality is a big part of this story. It may not really be poverty that is driving the evolution of religion, but inequality. As inequality grows, the importance of religion does too.


I love evidence based information.  But evidence doesn't have much of an impression on us unless we hold a belief that leads us to feeling the evidence speaks of truth.  Today I am realizing the more I emotionally hurt I feel, the more I reach for an understanding of God or universal truth and the more I want to reject that which is worldly.   From pain it seems true that to be worldly is to have pain and our salvation, our escape from pain, is to be spiritual and detached from being worldly.

On the other hand that is self defeating, because it is science and technology that have given us the blessings we enjoy.  We now expect to live to old age and to die before our children die.  We believe it is possible to manage the causes of illness and death.  We believe it is possible to have comfortable lives in decent homes with hot and cold running water and clean heat in the winter and cooling in the summer.  Religion did not give us these very real and practical solutions to evil, but in many cases advanced the ignorance that made things worse.  

A better world means better reasoning, science and shared values and a willingness to work together and to think globally.   But technology without the wisdom to use it, and turning our backs on the gods, is what Zeus feared.  That is why he gave the first man a woman and a wedding present that was a jar containing all the miseries that would slow down our progress.   So we would not develop technology too fast and turn our backs on the gods.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2019 at 14:51
I worry about reasoning.  The view of reason seems to inevitably be limited.  Science cannot imagine were it will be in twenty years.  But if you ask people in the cult of reason what may be around the corner, they get uncomfortable about even recognizing that it may be different.  Think of these big tech companies, if they could freeze all development, so that they would remain on top, they would do it.  They already buy promising startups that may come to compete with them, so that they can shut them down.  They're in control, what better world could they possibly imagine.  Better reasoning would threaten the status quo, they would have none of that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2019 at 03:53
I think there is a rock, paper, scissors arrangement in society between politics, religion and business.  The three check each other.  Politics has a monopoly on legitimate violence, in other words taxation, imprisonment and killing (legitimately), religion however, is a higher cause.  It kicks in where politics gets out of line, the civil rights movement for example.  It kinda says, "you can kill us, but you can't make us go away.  Religion can, however, be distracted by business, which entertains our materialistic pleasures, government however uses taxation and regulation to keep business in check.
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