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Pythagoras

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    Posted: 25 Mar 2016 at 03:38
Pythagoras of Samos (c. 570-490 BC) is known as a philosopher, mathematician and a religious figure in modern academia.  It should be understood that none of these vocations were an occupation in Archaic Greece (pre-Salamis 480), or even in Classical Greece (Salamis to Alexander).  For example, Socrates was a stone mason, his father Sophronicus was a stone mason, and so on.  Occupations were a matter of tradition, and son learned the trade from father, and probably other guildsman.  Plato (an Aristocrat) writes about Socrates giving arguments where his opponents compare him to Daedalus, the mythic sculptor whose statues moved on their own.  Pausanias in his Travel book, actually saw some of Socrates' sculpture (a frieze) on the Acropolis.  Pythagoras was a craftman, not like Socrates, but higher class.

Pythagoras' father Mnesarchus was, according to Diogenes Laertius, a daktyloglyphos, a finger ring engraver.  He was much more than that, he was one of the Samian celators, the others of which, Rhoecus, Theodorus and Telecles are mentioned in Herodotus.  In Iamblichus, he is said to "have made a Temple to Apollo."  Probably most people who read this assume that he commissioned it.  More likely he was the central planner, actually designing it.

If Mnesarchus was an engraver, a celator, a high class artisan dealing with precious metals and gems, with maybe some bronze work and architecture included in that, then his son, Pythagoras, would have been trained in the family business, and sure enough we see, again in Diogenes Laertius, that 'he had made three silver cups for the priests of Egypt."  "Had made" sounds once again, like they were commissioned, but looking at the original Greek, the verb "had made" is reflexive.  What that means is that Pythagoras 'had made [himself] the three silver cups."  There are other references to things he created in antiquity, but the cups are the most clear.  There are, incidently, three major priesthoods that Pythagoras would have gone to for knowledge.  So the story matches up, in that respect too.

Well, so what?  We should realize that just as we are going through a tech revolution with computers, the ancient Greeks were going through a tech revolution, with coins.  The celator designed seal stones and rings, which is how people in antiquity verified their identity, and designed the dies for coins, which came to replace a barter economy, with quantifiable units of precious metal, stamped with an insignia that represented the coin as good, and exposed the inner metal hindering counterfeits.  Starting about 650 BC, coinage started to get introduced in Lydia and Ionia (Samos is in Ionia), Pythagoras would have grown up under the influence of coinage, especially since he must have been a member of that elite guild.  
Not only that, but Pythagoras immigrated to Southern Italy and designed the incuse coinage (a special type of coinage, Spread fabric incuse coins) from Croton, Metapontum, and other cities.  Pythagoras' mathematical interest in arithmetic was spurred on by the economics of commerce, but at the same time he did not neglect geometry.  And some of his coins show a remarkable geometry in their design.

Got to stop for now, will pick it up, probably Saturday.
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Ok see you Saturday.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robert Baird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2016 at 15:25
Dear F

Lots of interesting places to go.

Coinage and the Metal Workers:

My understanding is - the Phocaean state on or in Ionia was as the name almost says - Phoenician. They created the first metal coinage and it had the all important BEE symbol. Many such symbols of Nature are very ancient totems. Books required to grasp such a thing as a totem, mandala and pre-writing. Pythagoras's mother was Phoenician, his father probably Milesian which is part of the DNN or Danaus who founded Greece. We are now learning Macedonia was more advanced and cultured than Greece. Metal working is a key secret I attribute to Pontish (Punt may be as well - names in different languages and places later) people and some people we now call Armenian. It began (per archaeology - which does not mean it was the first - we may find earlier) in 27,000 BCE in Dolni Vestonici. Ceramics and 700 kilns there - but the most important and possibly secret technology was a double kiln still used to make Viking swords in the early Renaissance.

The BEE symbol is used by the Royal House of Mallia on Crete in 2200 BCE. MLL is a Milesian removed from a homeland - their more original homeland I can trace (See Michael Grant in The Rise of the Greeks) to the eastern shores of the Black Sea, and earlier having to flee in front of the flood which created the Black Sea in about 5300 BCE. Cistern technology and specific engineering of construction aligns them with the Shardana - in Egypt and the most intriguing place of all - Sardinia!!! See Jacquetta Hawkes' The Atlas of Archaeology where she identifies over 7000 "medieval castles" dating to as much as 1800 years before the myth of Jesus. She also said more would be found and was correct - over 9000 on that one island allowed an enfilade of cross bow and long bow fire to stop any invasion. See other nuraghi on Corsica where Napoleon was born and claimed his family was Royalty of this era - longer story - a book I have done on he and the Merovingian wife whose children were the Royalty of Europe and still are to some extent.

Druidic University - Rennes-le-Chateau - Massallia

The last known Dean of Studies was a Hyperborean names Abaris (Translates to Rabbi or teacher). Pythagoras was initiated as a Druid here. Tartessus  (Tarshis, Tarses and other places for this large Iberian emporiae of corporate entity) gave Phocaeans the right to found a city there after a race across the Mediterranean. Off shore and 400 feet below the current Mediterranean you have a mine. When the Mediterranean was a collection of lakes and swamps this was developed - when I do not know. A  mine on shore in Egypt is dated to 30,000 or more years ago. One in Zimbabwe 45,000 years ago, see the possible Cretan White Lady of Brandberg. I will try to edit this and add more on the Cretan ships and Hybrid grains dated to 5,000 years before any such technology in the lie known as the Cradle of Civilization or what Jung calls the UR stories. (It is not working.)

I forget who said "if you want to know what a Druid knows - ask a wild bee?" Maybe it was Bernard Mandeville in his BEE book. The BEES are important to be certain (Mormons and the House of Mallia and the first minted coins of the Phocaeans, and Napoleon's investiture robes as Holy ROMAN Emperor).I even throw a BEE in with "To Be or not to BEE." - occasionally. St. Columba said "Jesus is the new Druid!" He would know because he was the Arch-Druid selling out to Rome. But he did save 1200 Bairds.

A great deal of change occurred from 5500 BCE to when the Black Sea was created and Mississippi became the route used by the Phoenicians of Poverty Point in Arkansas and region. The Glacial melt and on-going isostatic re-adjustment causing  a new divide in how the water flows out of Lake Superior and the prior Thulean and northern route is important to the metal industries. So when you see science saying something began at this time it is more correct to say much was destroyed and we need to get the research moving on what is at the bottom of the Black Sea (Ballard found interesting sites).

"The Sumerians may not have been the first people to invent the earliest form of writing, which allegedly appeared c. 3500 B.C.E. The Tartaria tablets, found in the western part of Romania and dating back to around 5300 B.C.E, according to radiocarbon dating, suggest that it was in Eastern Europe that writing first appeared. Some experts have dubbed the writing the Old European Script or the Danube Script."

http://neweastplatform.org/2015/03/06/the-tartaria-tablets-the-oldest-writing-in-the-world-redefining-the-cradle-of-civilization


I have reported on the Franchthi cave explorations of Jacobsen for over a decade but I added an 'i' and spelled it wrong you can see some places where my articles are posted. Here is a little on Encyclopedia Britannica's website who used to have more and maybe in their archives you can find more. Clearly travelling across dangerous waters for more than 150 miles was a feat for the community fishing fleets in this era. It was almost twice as old as Pavlopetri - why do the scientists not talk about things they must know (like the Hellenic Marine Archaeology Center if not everyone else).

"excavation by Jacobsen

 Aegean civilizations: Paleolithic (Old Stone Age)

 ...or the other islands. As elsewhere in Europe, the latest Lower Paleolithic industries evolved into Upper Paleolithic ones with diminutive stonework. The excavations of Thomas W. Jacobsen at the Franchthi Cave on the Bay of Argos showed that boats already sailed to the island of Melos north of Crete for obsidian, a volcanic glass invaluable for early tools, by about 13,000–11,000 bc..."

 Crete was the longest running Keltoi or Phoenician administrative center. They had four at any point in time. The language of Crete then was Luwian and it is close to the Tocharian of Urumchi, and found perhaps by side scan sonar on the deep megalithic ruins off Cuba which was to be researched by Nat Geo who mysteriously dropped out of the project started by Paulina Zelintsky (sp?) and her company in Vancouver.






Edited by Robert Baird - 25 Mar 2016 at 16:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2016 at 02:21
Phocaea is not the same thing as Phoenicia, Phocaea (or Phokaia) was a Greek polis (city-state) in Ionia who migrated to Sardinia, founded Alalia, was forced out by the Etruscans and Carthaginians and founded Velia (or Elea) in Southern Italy c. 540 BC.  The Phokaians had earlier found Marsailles (Massalia), the oldest city in France (600 BC?), and were amazing explorers and voyagers, Pytheas of Massalia, travelled the coast of Europe and described the short days in the North (and called a liar by Strabo, because how could days be that short!).  Phokaia was forced in their migration to Sardinia because of the threatened invasion of, I believe, Persia, (or maybe Lydia.)
Coins with a bee on them come from Ephesus, not Phokaia, they date to c. 550, where the earliest coins (c. 650) are from Lydia (according to Xenophanes of Colophon, sometimes considered an "Eleatic" phllosopher (Elea=Velia)) or, according archaeology, Ionia or Lydia.  The type or emblem of Lydia was the roaring lion's head with the sun behind it, sometimes called the "wart-nose lion."  There is earlier stuff, the earliest stuff including the Lydian lion is in electrum.

For Abaris, I would recommend Peter Kingsley's book 'A Story waiting to pierce you' (or something like that), he states that Abaris was an Avar, and his name is a Greek misunderstanding of the Shamanic traveler's ethnic identity, this traveler was coming from Mongolia or Tibet to witness the birth of Western Civilization.  Kingsley is a little radical, but he is amazing, he has a personal connection to Empedocles.  In College, he was supposed to write on Empedocles and went down to Morocco to hang out and read Empedocles in the original Greek fragments.  There he figured out that scholars don't really know what they are talking about when they talk about Empedocles.  btw, Empedocles is in the Pythagorean list in Iamblichus.  Then he came back to England and barely made it home, later found by his parents with an appendicitis.  Had it removed, and got an infection, during his recovery he couldn't do anything but lie there and think about Empedocles.  Kingsley understands Empedocles like no one else alive, Empedocles is a bit of a mystic and so is Kingsley, rightfully I think.  Right now, he is writing a book on Pythagoras and I am very eager to read it, like anything he writes.

Let me get back to Pythagoras as a celator.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2016 at 04:51
I personally don't think that Pythagoras family (or mother) was Phoenician, but that is something that is referred to in Iamblichus, so I see where you get that.  I am also a little sceptical about a druidic connection, but again that is something that appears in late sources.  It is not impossible, nor are the mentioned Indian connections.  They got around a lot more than we give the ancients credit for.  The conservative scholarship assumptions are the Greek world, Egypt, Crete, Babylonia, but also ancient sources mention that he wore pants, which is interesting, since because he was Greek, one would normally assume a square toga.  When you have something in a tradition that runs against the normally assumed conventions, that is sometimes a sign that that bit of information is genuine.  In other words, who would say that a Greek philosopher wore pants, unless he actually did wear pants?  But, pants are a Persian invention, and so most likely he got into the Persian world, c. 550 BC, not the later Persian world of Herodotus and Xerxe's invasion.  But again, earlier literary sources do not give the Druidic and Indian connections, so scholars tend to count those out, perhaps throwing the baby out with the bathwater, if you will.

As far as other creations Pythagoras did, according to the literary tradition, he was also said to have left inscriptions at Delphi and Mt Ida in Crete (Porphyry).  He was initiated into the cult of the Dactyls at Mt. Ida, smithy gods for iron workers.  The tripod on the coins of Croton show the circ perdue technique which had been introduced into Samos, when he was young (C. Seltman).  Also, he was said to have introduced weights and measures into all of Greece, something that is not technically correct, but it could be that he introduced weights and measures to Magna Graecia or, in other words, Southern Italy (Diogenes Laertius).  A coin of course, is a weight of precious metal, stamped with an emblem.  Furthermore, the perfect solids in some cases are found in crystals, and so he may have gotten the idea for perfect solids from the appearance of crystals (C. Seltman).  The perfect solids are also called the Platonic solids.  Of course, there is no way to tell whether he knew of the solids in crystal form, but maybe someone could do a study of the appearance (or lack thereof) in ancient mine tailings, and see whether it was possible or probable that, say, the octohedron of a flourite crystal was known before Hippasus, the Pythagorean to whom some modern scholars first attribute the shape.  Iamblichus refers to some things that sound like these geometric solids made by Pythagoras out of metal.  What exactly they are is unclear.  But, my point is that we have literary evidence from ancient writings pointing to Pythagoras' occupation as a celator.  I have argued elsewhere that the geometry and symbolism of the coins provide evidence that the incuse coinage of Magna Graecia originates from the workshop of Pythagoras.  I am biased, of course I think that Pythagoras is fascinating, but the real question I want to get at, is what does all this mean for us in the 21st century AD?

Oh, one more thing, Pythagoras was said by some to be Etruscan, but not the Etruscan of Eturia, but the "Etruscans" of Lemnos, were a stele was found in a form of Etruscan that is slightly more Archaic than that found in Etruria.  Lemnos is volcanic, and was sacred to Hephaestus (Homer), the smith god.  I tend to think that Pythagoras, as a metal worker, had a guest membership to the local guild of smiths. 

I try to give enough detail that if anyone wants to check out details, they will at least have somewhere to look.  A more complete version of Pythagoras' background is my article "Pythagoras of Samos, Celator" which is on the web, along with other articles of mine, which are not as clear as I would like, and call out for revising.  I call the incuse coinage the Pythagorean coins of Magna Graecia, but I am a little uncomfortable in calling them "Pythagorean."  Such a label calls for a certain interpretation of coins of ten or so mints over a period of 80 years.  If it were obviously "Pythagorean," they would have been noticed a long time ago.  Far from being an obscure academic question, this pertains very much to where we are (and how we got here) today.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robert Baird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2016 at 05:56
Dear F

We have many sources to wade through but clearly you do not know who founded Greece and the people who gave all their colonies their languages or alphabets to be more correct. Even wiki now says it - the Phoenicians. Pythagoras was initialed into every discipline probably - and founded many more according to those who follow him. I have done three full books leading up to him or his era about eleven years ago - I was finished with them. Since then I find only more proof what I wrote was correct.

Homer says it was the DN or Danaus who founded Greece. If you start asking where these people came from and go forward from them to the Cathars and today - you get a whole history of at least 40,000 years. And pretty good glimpses into what went on long before that - Campbell said 462,000 years before he died as he was doing the foreword to Language of the Goddess. What with what has been proven or found since he died I am sure he would agree it is at least double what he said - for human civilization.

The book by Michael Grant I referred to will get you to the other Phoenician colonies left out purposefully by lying Hellenizers and Rome who destroyed the books of earlier writers like Poseidonius and tried to make Herodotus seem a fiction writer.

The Battle of Alalia can be a date for the founding of Rome or the setting straight of Etruria and I think the families who left Troy will lead you into the Empire of Britain and Rome which still rule today. These families of Bruttii (southern Italy and the name of the city Pythagoras went - after having to leave Greece named Bruttium) and Aeneas. The Sybarites fought with the Etruscans at that Battle and later were defeated by the people who followed Pythagoras. Their existence was considered a pure fiction until they were found right where Herodotus said in the 1970s.

Smith is another name for alchemist if you go back further. Guilds is a name later used by Pythagorean Masons who may or may not truly have a connection with him. If Paine is right about Masonry being based on Druidry - then maybe. I will supply further recent science and quotes from various sources.

Epigraphy and language origins from the vowel-less days of scripts and symbols will take us many places as we attempt to pierce the lies of Empire and Classical history or myths of the Gospels etc.

So many academics still believe the Bible Narrative and it's depiction of all the various colonies of the Phoenicians as if they were separate entities it make me sputter and choke. Philistines, Hyksos, Ashkelon, Ba'albek, Rhodes and all the Milesians and many more of the second and first millennia BPE are beginning to get attention under the umbrella of Phoenicia, but that is not close to what history will soon have to agree was true. Maspero's Sea Peoples theory was more correct than even he knew. I have dealt with this in many other threads including The Phoenicians. So let me just check into what is out there right now. This link gives other insights and is well worth reading.

"Around 1100 B.C. the Phoenicians began creating colonies all across the Mediterranean -- even on the Atlantic coasts of Europe and Africa. The first colonies were Cadiz on the Atlantic side of Spain, Lixis on the Atlantic side of Morocco, Utica on the coast of North Africa, and Kition on the island of Cyprus. More followed on Sicily and Sardinia. When combined with the Phoenicians' earlier cities along the east coast of the Mediterranean, that was an impressive span of settlement. But there was more to come.

They created a large and rich colony at Carthage, near the older settlement of Utica, and began a new stage of rapid growth. (For additional information see Carthage.) Spurred on by competition from the Greeks who began to settle in southern Italy and eastern Sicily, the Phoenicians planted more colonies all around the Mediterranean. Details of these settlements are shown in Chapters 13 to 21 of Phoenician Secrets: Exploring the Ancient Mediterranean, along with maps and descriptions recounting their adventurous early days.

Spain

The early colony at Cadiz -- known to the Phoenicians as Gadir and to the Romans as Gades -- was gradually joined by more cities: Abdera (modern Adra), Sexi (modern Almuñécar), Malaka (modern Malaga) and Carteia (on the Bay of Gibraltar). On the Spanish island of Ibiza was the colony of Ibshim, called Ebusus by the Romans.

Morocco

Lixis, the early center of Phoenician settlements in Morocco, was called Lixus by the Romans and today is Larache. The others cities which joined it are: Tingis (modern Tangier), Sala (modern Rabat, the capital of Morocco), Zili (modern Asilah) and Mogador (modern Essaouira).

Algeria

The Phoenician colony of Ikosim was called Icosium by the Romans and became modern Algiers, the capital of Algeria. Their other significant colony in this land was Hippo (modern Annaba).

Tunisia

Utica was the oldest Phoenician colony in what is now Tunisia and -- after the passing of Carthage -- it regained its position as the leading city of the region. In total magnitude and splendor, however, Carthage rightly was known as the greatest Phoenician city in this land. Other colonies here were: Hippo Diarrhytos (modern Bizerte), Hadrumetum (modern Susah), Thapsus and Acholla.

Phoenician colonies

Carthage and Rome

Libya

The colony of Oia, also called Oea, eventually became Tripoli, the capital of Libya. The other local colonies were Leptis (surnamed Magna by the Romans) and Sabrata.

Sicily

The first prominent Phoenician colony here was at Ortygia, but when the Greeks arrived and took over eastern Sicily, this island port became known as Syracuse and went on to greater glory. Subsequently, the major Phoenician colonies were on the western part of this island, located at: Motya, Panormus (modern Palermo) and Solus (modern Solunto).

Sardinia

Early settlements were at Nora and Karalis, which is now known as Cagliari and is the capital of Sardinia. Sulci and Tharros also had early colonies, which were eventually joined by many others across the island.

Malta

The Phoenicians surprisingly lived among the Maltese people, for reasons explained in Holst's book, so they had few distinctive colonies here. The two main islands of Malta are believed to draw their names from the Phoenician Melita (modern Malta) and Gaulos (modern Gozo).

Pantelleria

Located here was the colony of Kossyra.

Cyprus

The main Phoenician city here was Kition (modern Larnaka) where the remains of significant buildings are still visible. Over time a greater or lesser part of the island came under Phoenician influence.

During the course of the Punic Wars (264 - 146 BC), Rome {And Rome itself was colonized by remnants of the Trojan War battles between Phoenician upstart colonies.} acquired almost all of these colonies from the Phoenicians. In fact, acquiring these Phoenician lands gave Rome its first foreign provinces, and enabled it to appropriately be called an empire."



http://www.phoenician.org/phoenician_colonies.htm

The archaeological remains of the House of Mallia on Crete in 2200 BPE show they are connected with Egypt, the Shardana on Sardinia and Corsica and they are MLL or Milesians.

Pretty much the same BS as a decade ago.

Phoenician Colonies - Phoenician Encyclopedia: A Bequest ...

phoenicia.org/colonies.html

The Phoenicians lacked the manpower and the need to found large colonies as the Greeks did, and few of their settlements grew to any size. The sites chosen ...


http://phoenicia.org/colonies.html

They still want us to believe Homer and Herodotus were liars and all the destroyed books had nothing important to say. The DN or Danaus are Phoenicians and they gave the Greeks their alphabets. It is known in linguistics but not in history school brainwashing where the Cradle of Civilization, Bible Narrative with Elohim and Nephilim, still rule with the ancient aliens theory our kids are taught.

Wikipedia gets it far more correct but in his book Formation of the Alphabet Flinders-Petrie noted a language over a millennium older which was actually spoken unlike Hieroglyphics. And Gimbutas did great work they have missed on Old European from the DN region. All in all a sad state of lies and subterfuge.

"The Phoenician alphabet, called by convention the Proto-Canaanite alphabet for inscriptions older than around 1050 BC, is the oldest verified alphabet. The Phoenician alphabet contains 22 letters, all of which are consonants, and is described as an abjad,[3] with matres lectionis being used for some vowels in certain late varieties. It was used for the writing of Phoenician, a Northern Semitic language, used by the civilization of Phoenicia.

The Phoenician alphabet is derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs [4] and became one of the most widely used writing systems, spread by Phoenician merchants across the Mediterranean world, where it evolved and was assimilated by many other cultures. The Paleo-Hebrew alphabet was directly derived from Phoenician. Another derivative script is the Aramaic alphabet, which was the ancestor of the modern Arabic script. The Modern Hebrew script is a stylistic variant of the Aramaic script. The Greek alphabet (and by extension its descendants such as the Latin, the Cyrillic, and the Coptic) was also derived from Phoenician."


Edited by Robert Baird - 26 Mar 2016 at 06:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robert Baird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2016 at 06:30
The Tablets of Tartaris dating to 5300 BCE found in the Danube or Old Europe of Gimbutas are not the first written or writing language if you believe Strabo who said Iberians of Spain (maybe he also meant the Iberian homeland in Iberia recently covered over by name in the early 20th Century as Tiflis) had a 7,000+ year written history before his time. I take language back a lot further than that. I can believe what the Keltoi said about the Senchus Mor having 25,000 years of written history.

Ephesus had a shrine to the Anatolian mother-goddess and the Cretan Lady of Wild Things that was later incorporated into the Greek worship of Artemis. (33) This magnificent statue has many 'cosmic eggs' on it that are extremely relevant to the Berber painting of ostrich eggs that are found in the Saharan finds mentioned in Carthage (Soren et al) as well as connected to the Druid's eggs. A Cambridge scholar I saw on a TV show recently was still calling these eggs 'breasts'. It is ludicrous and almost funny if you look at a picture of the statue with over a hundred 'breasts'. What level of academic ineptitude is this? We have seen many who know the worldwide importance of the cosmic egg including Gimbutas, but then perhaps this scholar knows were his bread is buttered. Smyrna is mentioned by Grant going back long before our present focus and shows Amazons (Kelts as we have shown) were once a part of the picture, but this is probably before the fall of Ariadne on Crete and goes back to times such as Malta shows had 2800 years before the Great Pyramid - with no weapons. Smyrna is the site of a great Merovingian family with a name you'll quickly recognize. Onassis, who married into another Merovingian family through Jackie Kennedy. Thus we ask you to remember what the old saws do say about history repeating itself.

The Phocaeans present us with acts that mirror the Phoenicians of Tyre and Sidon as well, in terms of establishing emporiae or colonial trading posts. They also show us how mobile it was necessary to be after the Goddess (egalitarian 'Brotherhood') was brought to her knees. Just as important in our eventual connection with Britain is 'the ships of Tarshis' and Tartessus on the Iberian Peninsula where Spain and Portugal claim national privileges today despite all the horror they have wrought. It is recorded in many places that Milesians came from Iberia between 1500 BC and 500 BC just as the Spanish Armada later dumped a lot of Celtiberians into the genetic mix of Scotland and Ireland in more recent times.'Non-Greeks' is no surprise in neolithic times because there were no Greeks. There was probably occasional settlements and conflicts over the area we now think of as Greece but remember Homer's 'DNN' and what many Greeks know to this day as they call themselves Danaus. We have shown lots of different proof and authority to connect them through Thrace to the Danube in periods before what we call Greece or Mycenaean culture.

"Smyrna was situated at the head of the gulf named after it, into which the River Hermus debouched. The original town, Old Smyrna, stood on a rocky peninsula (Haci Mutso) beside the north-eastern shore of the gulf. This settlement existed since Neolithic times, but its founders according to contradictory Greek legends, included non Greek Leleges {Phoenician pirates}, Amazons, and King Tantalus of Phrygia." (34)

"The Phocaeans also created the historic city of Massalia (Marseille) on the Mediterranean coast of Gaul, at the eastern fringe of the Rhone delta (C.600)." (37)

{Where did the Medes come from? Fred Eberg of the Univ. of Pennsylvania may have a clue in the Russian lost civilization of Turkmenistan. It is before Sumer and they say there was a language. There are dozens of large fortress like cities seen from remote sensing satellite equipment. On radio interviews I've heard he talks about re-writing history books in respect of it having a language, but before, it was the Danube Old European. Because it is unlike nearby Mesopotamian cultures in structures and script we can draw another connection to the Danube but we must wait for more details. They definitely irrigated the desert and that shouldn't surprise anyone, but it seems to surprise these 'experts'. The nearly delph-like china and other artifacts along the Silk Road doesn't move them to say for sure that China was part of the trading network, yet the Kelts were there in 3,000 BC according to National Geographic; 1000 years before they find the china materials.}

Pliny the elder also adds a record of a certain Midacritus who is likely to have been a Phocaean. 'Midacritus', he observed, 'was the first to import 'white lead' (that is to say tin) from the 'Tin Island' (Cassiteris),' {He notes 'Midacritus' means approved of Midas which indicates a Phrygian connection. I suggest that Midas was the King of Lydia and part of the Phoenician from Pont to Tyre and Hittite connection going back to the Danube Kelts of Finias. Any Ionian states that were his neighbors could earn his approval. I emphasize EARN and suggest this is the person for whom the likes of today's IMF organizers and the Fed backers are really like.} by which he meant, however, not the Scilly Islands but Cornwall ('the Stannaries'). Tin was immensely important to the ancient world, since it was an essential constituent of bronze. It existed in various near-eastern countries as well as in Greece itself, but not in sufficient quantities to make supplies from the west unnecessary. Pliny's words might merely mean that Midacritus sailed to Tartessus, in order to pick up a cargo of tin which the Tartessians had acquired from Cornwall. But more probably he himself {Like Joseph of Arimathaea}, by way of Tartessus adventurously fetched the tin from Britain. On the assumption that Midacritus' expedition was in the mid-sixth century or a little earlier, he and his compatriots were choosing a good time for such enterprises, since their potential rivals the Phoenicians were preoccupied with the encroachment of Persia.

But their most extraordinary accomplishment lay in the distant west. {N. B.} The first of the Greeks, according to Herodotus, 'to make long voyages', it was the Phocaeans who pioneered the remotest and most perilous routes. It was they, for example, who followed up the first Samian contacts with the kingdom of Tartessus around the mouth of the River Baetis (Guadalquivir) on south-western Spain (c.640), sailing not in merchant ships but in fifty-oared warships (so that cargo-carrying was sacrificed to speed and fighting capacity). The friendly relations that they thus established with the long-lived king of Tartessus, Arganthonius, secured the Phocaean adventurers a large share of the bronze, tin and silver in which the Spanish hinterland abounded.

{The Phocaean coin had the BEE emblem that has been found on Cretan digs going back to the Royal House of Mallia or Mile and Milesians to the third millennium BCE. We showed' 'purple' dye in Mexico and Peru where they had an industry of making this all important spiritual or royal colour. There was a time that modern academics like Nuttall thought this was the best evidence of transatlantic cultural exchanges with the Phoenicians. Could the Phocaeans have been there?}

They {Phocaeans} took part in the activities of Naucratis in Egypt, where Phocaea was one of the twelve Greek cities which shared the temple of Apollo {Frazer's 'Golden Bough' documented Plutarch and others knew Apollo and others were representations of Osiris and the rituals at his representational graves included burning people with 'Red Hair') known as the Hellenium, dating from the time of the Pharaoh Amasis (c.569- 525) {Right at the key point of the Battle of Alalia}. By this time, too the Phocaeans, in their own native city, had built a temple of Athena, made of fine white porous stone. They also initiated what was to be an abundant and widely circulating electrum coinage (accompanied by issues of silver that were initially smaller), depicting the city emblem of a seal, and launching a long and varied series of miniature artistic designs. They were also famous for their dyeing industry."

Through all of this period from the end of the Hyksos invasions of Egypt there is growing aristocratic and macho oriented structure apparent within the Phoenicians of the Mediterranean despite the fact Egypt still allowed women to rule as we know from the numerous Cleopatras. The kings and supranational corporate entities were adding more power in every century and they were putting in place the control of armies as well as the priesthoods they always found willing to favour their desires. Yet the people and the merchant class were wary and we see Carthage through the eyes of Aristotle around 345 BC. He was surprised to find they still had an Assembly of the People which was actually strong and democracy was thriving there. (35)

This political tug of war is still endemic in our society today. Around that time Pseudo-Aristotle writes that Carthage passed a law forbidding anyone (presumably without their approval) from going to America. When the Gracchi failed and the Republic of Rome failed (the Bruttii who killed Caesar and other good men of the Phoenician or Pythagorean and genre became adapted to a new structure) a very big nail was driven deep into the ethic or even semblance of equality. The establishment of Caesar (later Kaiser and Czar are words from the same root) ended even the superficial appearance of a majority of citizens having equal say.


cont'd
Notice Herodotus telling truth about trade and travel to the Americas but Plutarch's map of Ogygia seals the deal.


Edited by Robert Baird - 26 Mar 2016 at 06:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robert Baird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2016 at 06:48
The Phocaeans had established joint colonies on the Black Sea with the Milesians at Samsun (Amisus) and the fact they could go to Spain and Britain makes it clear they could have taken the short route across the Atlantic from the west African Carthaginian outposts that lots of artifacts in South America seem to have come from (Amphorae, etc.). He doesn't address these probabilities but some of his numismatic friends have dealt with the coins found in America. He was President of the Royal Numismatic Society and a medalist in the Americas. The quotes from Mr. Grant speak to the necessary perspicacity and courage and his word usages seem open to this possibility but it would be academic suicide (or would have been when he wrote the book) for him to address these issues of such great impact. They knew the earth was a sphere and the 'Flat Earth' dogma didn't even exist until a millennium or more after the Battle of Alalia. Massalia also gave them access to the Rhone River routes to Britain, Brittany and Hallstatt Kelts. The actual time he is talking about probably saw the elite not using this valuable tin. Iron was everywhere but tin could be monopolized. The interesting point about all the wealth in these times that also might tie in with South America relates to the abundance of gold. There were times when Egypt valued silver more than gold. We are convinced there were at least two millennia before this; that corporate Phoenician enterprises were the dominant issue and trade with the Americas was a key factor.

In this link you find my Phoenician scholars like Cyrus Gordon (Mormon for sure) and Cyclone Covey (If related to Stephen Covey of Seven Steps also a Mormon) proving Jews came to Bountiful (America) long before "Columbus sailed the ocean blue". Columbus was also a Jew/Cathar.

https://guapotg.wordpress.com/2011/0...walter-baucum/

And as I have often said the Altaic region of Genghis Khan has many red-heads such as seen in the mummies of Urumchi. And here is genetic proof they came to the Americas and are what we call natives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal%27ta-Buret%27_culture

http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0...7)61629-2?cc=y

Marseilles is still important to the drug trade but nearby Sardinia and its medieval castles going back to the Hyksos or Shardana once housed their bank and drug manufacturing. There were more emeralds than the Mediterranean produced and the gold from Peru along with those emeralds (which were used to view the stars by the Queen of Sheba) made some people very rich and yet still they made potions to hook whole cultures.

Dr. Carter of John's Hopkins says it is possible that man was in the Americas 100,000 years ago and he says certainly 60,000. This article says the Indians had no ships to travel the ocean and yet - I know for sure the Mayans had larger ships than Columbus. The large hardwood trees of the area made up to 150 foot ships or boats. As to the need of sails they should know Romans were not big on sails which require windlass technology (Irish and Phoenicians had crude technology) to keep ships whole. I think if they wanted these dugouts could hoist sails in weather that was safe - just as shown the Peruvians did in their voyage bringing back a bronze chair and black princess. The same dugout technology is seen going from the Haida to Samoans on New Zealand. Hell; there are one man crafts going across every ocean today - some have people towing the sleeping boat as they walk on snowshoe types of footwear.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robert Baird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2016 at 15:48
I have pretty much finished with the thread addressing the origins of Greece and metal working or some of the things we have discussed here. It includes a student associate of mine from a few months ago giving input on a course she was taking from noted Harvard Professor Nagy. Some would say he is THE authority on Greece and it's heroes - she thought so until we discussed the details and she left his course to focus on our dialogue. I think he is an excellent source, but I have studied more and integrated FAR more. It would take many weeks of reading if you read all the threads mentioned and maybe longer if you read the free books and dissertations provided for free. These thread links require browsing to get to.

http://forum.world-mysteries.com/threads/1736-Danubian-Old-Europe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2016 at 22:53
Very interesting Mr. Baird, but I am not sure what that has to do with "the price of tea in China," but maybe it does have to do with that.  As Heraclitus said (albeit perhaps ironically), "a philosopher has to know many things indeed."  But let's get back to Pythagoras and what he has to do with 21st century life.

Marshall McLuhan advocated that the medium is the message, a typo turned that doctrine into the medium is the massage, something that McLuhan also endorsed.  That means that the "form" of an interaction is probably more important than the "contents" of an interaction.  But whereas for a shovel or clothes that doesn't (as) fundamentally change our thinking, communications media not only changes our actions, but also how we look at them.  Our perception of the world is the result of those media by which we see the world, or hear it, or smell it, etc.  Because that perception of the world is a result of that media, we are limited by those media and bound by them, especially insofar as because we are "inside" those media, we cannot properly examine those media and how they shape our knowledge.

In the sixth century BC, a new media, coinage, was starting to take off.  Also, secular literacy was starting to take off, as we see on the multi-letter ethnics of the coins of Magna Graecia.  Also, mathematics outside of the temple was starting to take off, arithmetic for commerce, geometry for the building of temples.  Astronomy and music are also areas that were of increasing importance at this time, both in the Greek traditions are also considered part of mathematics.  One has the beginning of a secular literature at this time, and the beginning of prose (Anaximander and Pherecydes).  Literacy means that lyric poetry began to be copied down at this time.  The Iliad and Odyssey were also copied down around this time, but unfortunately, in their exaltation, the rest of the Epic tradition became neglected, except insofar as it became fertile ground for the tragedies of Athens.  The written, prosaic, tradition comes in and the oral, poetic, spoken tradition goes out.  Although there is a flourishing of rhetoric in the 5th century with the sophists and the rhetoricians teaching people how to argue in the law courts.  

We have a transition about this time, and Pythagoras is in the middle of that tradition.  On one hand, he is learning mythology from Pherecydes and Epic poetry from Hermodamus, and communicating his doctrines via oral tradition.  On the other hand, he is a celator dealing with the latest technology, coinage, and trends that it brings in, writing and mathematics.  He also may have something to do with the second temple at Poseidonia, but it would require close examination of the temple to, possibly, substantiate that.

So with a communications technology, there is at first a time when the old technology has not quite let go, and the new technology has not quite got a hold of everything.  Computers are that way for us, soon there will be a generation who has never known a time without computers, and never known a time with non-fiat currency.  Silver currency in the US ends in 1964, and in the 80s it totally gets cleared out of circulation when the Hunts try to corner the silver market.  Pythagoras lived in a time (c. 572-490 BC), when coinage was just getting started, he knew in his gut what a barter economy was like, and while he couldn't foresee everything, he could see how coinage would change things.  
Of course, barter never completely goes away, nor does oral tradition, nor rhetoric, nor poetry, it is still here (in a diminished capacity) even today.  Coins will not disappear completely with the introduction of electronic currency, nor books with film and television, or even sculpture with modern 'art.'  But in someways, we are closer to Pythagoras then we are to Thomas Aquinas or Chaucer.

Next I will deal with how coinage influenced philosophy in early Greek philosophy. 


Edited by franciscosan - 26 Mar 2016 at 22:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robert Baird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2016 at 04:40
Dear Franciscosan

I will travel the road you wish to take a little longer even though your history is false and derivative of Empire.

I do this because I see you are very literate and might have something to add to my research.

You ask what does Pythagoras have to do with the present - a great deal as your referenced author Kingsley's book says. I have not read it, because I have many other sources and he does not go back as far as I do. But it is possible he got some things correct even though the premise he started from is as old as Carlton Coons, William James, Frazer, Eliade and Howell - about shamans -- and far later than actual esoteric authors about such things - I could rhyme off hundreds, including who you just quoted - Hecateus.

Heischelheim tracked the origin of all Greek technology to the Altaic in in his book from the 1960s - to an era far more specific than Kingsley but many millennia. Clyde Winters adds to that as does Wayland-Barber and others I just gave you. Yes, Tibet and Mongolia - I do like seeing some people picking up my line of thought!

My source on what I said about coinage is the president of the Royal Numismatic Society - or was. So for that I will stay with him. The advent of clay tablets serving the same function is older still. The implications of it I trace through the actual families who wrote themselves the Monopolies and run all institutions to this day. That is another twenty books I have written.

Backwards and forwards - if you cannot connect the dots you end up with era propaganda - and nonsense. For example - I once conversed about Rome with a noted scholar on it - Michael Parenti. He was nice enough - but admitted he knew very little about these families, including Joseph of Arimathaea who was the Roman Minister of Mines. Hirtius and journalists are not important - even though they wrote what Caesar wanted. I suppose you could say it is useful to making psychoanalytical evaluations as was done on another major liar and his book Confessions.

Now there you have real coin of the realm all over the world for many millennia. Mines in South Africa dated to 45,000 years ago - at depth. Mines off Massallia (which we discussed) under 400 feet of water - when were they built? If you have anything specific on Arimathaea or the Ptolemaic family tree, (I have lots - but can use more, I suspect the latter is Borgia.) I could use it. Solomon had crews in South America getting emeralds - that is real wealth and of great impact I assure you.

But if you seek for limits and agreement in academic sources - even Michael Grant was wise enough to admit he knew very little about what Pythagoras studied  = and could not pass judgement - you will end up passing on no improvement and just more regurgitated vomit.

I have studied the things Grant admits he knows nothing about - Bi-Location specifically. I very much doubt Kingsley can hold a candle to my understanding even though I think he is on the right track.

So, if you would prefer I not upset your vomit and appeals to me-too think, I will leave you with you current approach.


Edited by Robert Baird - 27 Mar 2016 at 04:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2016 at 05:35
Scholars drape themselves in the finery of esoteric knowledge while princesses revel in jewels, gold and fine cloth.  Vanity has many ways of expressing itself and can be as deadly a sin as avarice.  If knowledge was a reward onto itself then we would find more people hording it like gold.  What the princess and the scholar both want in their heart of jealous hearts is to be desired and admired from a distance.

The study of coinage obviously gives us a way to estimate the circulation of ideas something I would think would be important to any historian.



  

 

  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2016 at 07:05
Bear, if you have a reference for this bee coin, please PM it to me so I can look it up myself.  For the coins I am talking about, I suggest referring to magnagraecia.nl, clicking on Bruttium, and then the poleis of Croton or Caulonia, or the region of Lucania, poleis of Sybaris or Metapontum or Poseidonia.  I would not ask for anything that I myself wouldn't give.  If you wish to consider me a stooly for "Empire," you can, but that doesn't change whether I am asking for something reasonable.

Of course, I will file away what you say, and eventually will get down to Colorado Springs, where the American Numismatic Association is located.

Wolfie, Academic scholars in the University think that everything is obvious, and if the ancients really had had their act together, they would have said what they (modern scholars) are saying now.  There is kind hubris that says _we_ know Plato, better than Plato knows Plato.  And after all, they assume, his entire philosophy could be explained (away) by saying that Plato was an aristocrat who wanted to exploit the people, or even more disgusting, some of these critics probably say that what he says is because he wants to sleep with mother, or something (Freudian) like that.  Ancients believed in esoteric knowledge, as did Medievals, moderns, being relativistic on everything else, are certain that exotericism (and thus also esotericism) doesn't exist.  
It would be polite if at least dictionaries could say that ancients and medievals believed in exotericism.  But the fact is, the rejection of exotericism is due to a limited view of rationality that is prevalent in the universities.  One group who dealt with exotericism on a political basis was the Straussians.  Leo Strauss argued that in unfree society, the prudent writer will conceal their true purpose in order to get passed the censors.  Galileo tried this with Dialogue on Two Great Systems (Ptolemaic and Copernican), but the inquisitors broke their own rules, to go after him.

Ultimately a scholar's ideas should be treated as an orphan.  It may be their baby, but ultimately it will have to stand on its own.  For me, with Pythagoras and the coins, I am like, does anyone else see this?  Or am I just hallucinating?  A big part of that is not merely that they are from Pythagoras' workshop, but also how much I see in/read into them.  That makes things difficult, and I don't want to right now open that can of worms.  But here I do plan to talk about coinage in general, and how it changed the culture in the Archaic period.

Archaeologists like to think that Ionia instead of Lydia was the origination point of coinage, because there is a lot of diversity out of there.  But I think we should realize that new technology does not necessarily have the biggest impact where it began.  VHS and Betamax formats for videos were invented in the United States, but it was Japanese companies that most took advantage of the new technology.  Also, the GUI (graphic user interface), and (maybe) also the mouse were invented in Xerox Labs, but it was Apple and PCs that were most able to put the new technology to good use.  So I could see electrum coinage starting in Lydia, but spreading to Ionia.  That coinage in turn was 'replaced' by silver coinage of Aegina and other poleis of Europe.

btw, poleis is the plural of polis, from whence we get 'politics.'  All Greek city-states are poleis, but not all poleis are city-states.  Some poleis lack an urban center.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robert Baird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2016 at 07:59
Dear W

More important than taking current beliefs and imposing them upon wiser people is learning what those wiser people could do and how they did it. People got along on exchange of valued effort and assets, without the coins we soon also will do without. Bucky Fuller said the ancients did not build non-biodegradable structures because they understand Nature. He also said the first people who traveled by the stars learned geometry, basic trig and if on the ocean - carpentry and engineering. Since we know this was around a million years ago (maybe more) we have reason to stop the lies of history which only recently said there were no humans on Earth that long ago - and yet our history sells the same schlock.

Socrates like Pythagoras, Plato and Aristotle can not be explained away despite the denial and lies told about them. They were alchemists but you will find just like the bounties Empire stoolies put on the heads of Druids (three Roman emperors and right up to recent Britannica editions - denial of their language, laws and culture). 

I have numerous sources for everything I say. I have proof that the Roman Empire called Christendom had purposefully hidden what these alchemists (AKA humanists) learned - just as they continue selling racist repressive ideologies from their BS Cradle of Civilization.

Dear F

I already gave you the source - Michael Grant in The Rise of the Greeks. He is the President of the Royal Numismatic Society (or was when he wrote the book). It is unimportant to what I am saying about the BEE families - symbols or logos still have great meaning. It would only have importance to someone who thinks dates for the first money not on clay supersede real Financial Transactions on clay tablets, which were preceded by other means. Adam Smith did not found the first school of economics and the Bilderbergs (by another name - same people though) met once a year off Troy (I think that was in Greeks too). The family who gave themselves the monopoly on usury in the Bible are the Rothschilds today. Go on and try to make sense about some fiction you find interesting. It has as much relevance to the present as an average Morgan Silver Dollar during the era when much of the US money supply was counterfeit - which recent acts by Helicopter Ben are likened with. C. H. Douglas mopped the floor with Keynes in a debate you and most people should read, on the way to a plan to DO good work as silly as "Make Love, not War".

I have yet to find a person who can discuss the Physiocrats better than the nonsense of some Libertarian root which is actually a defection or Hegelian ploy. It is these same families telling us to let them do their thing without government intrusion (churches or corporate entities). If you learn only one thing in this world it would serve this society to know - "The Government that governs best, governs least." Is Physiocratic fluff from the likes of Dupont who sold armaments to both sides of every conflict - as was always the case for at least the 5,000 years James Joyce calls a "nightmare'.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2016 at 17:07
I am trying to deal with a very specific subject, the invention and introduction of coinage, its creation by and influence of Pythagoras and other early philosophers.  Bear, maybe you will like what I say, probably not, but at least let me say it.  These big digressions into the Phoenician origins of the Mediterranean World, or the Physiocrat influence on libertarians, sidetrack things.  They bog me down in responding to what you want, and do not allow me to develop this thread.  So I humbly suggest that since you don't seem capable of spurring me on in what I am trying to do, that at least you try not to derail me.  If you have something relevant to the topic, by all means share it.  But much of what you said was a tangent to a tangent (so to speak). But if you don't have something pertinent, let me at least finish what I am saying, coming to a pausing point, and _then_ you can tell me how wrong I am.  Or maybe even you find what I say as interesting, and food for thought on your own endeavors.

Now of course, you are under no obligation to do what I say, and what I say is open to some interpretation.  I have started this thread, and I now ask for a little courtesy.  I am not saying the digressions were bad, they are part of the process, but before we wander too far off course, and I forget my way, I would like to call us back and focus on the topics I first intended.  

Moses Maimonides said that it was best not to stray from God's path, but those who strayed and came back to it, were closer to God.  I would like to get back to the "path" so to speak.


Edited by franciscosan - 27 Mar 2016 at 17:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robert Baird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2016 at 17:54
Dear F

I will leave you to the denial of reality you prefer.

In parting let me say - economics is what you are going to have to address - it is history and Synarchy. Avoid this reality and make no sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2016 at 19:28
Originally posted by Robert Baird Robert Baird wrote:

Dear F

I will leave you to the denial of reality you prefer.

In parting let me say - economics is what you are going to have to address - it is history and Synarchy. Avoid this reality and make no sense.

I think it is connections that are interesting Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robert Baird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2016 at 21:05
Dear W

Connections or integrating facts leads to wisdom. Deny the connections and find yourself under the influence of truly weird ideologies such as those which continue to deny the philosophers were what Peter Kingsley and far better authors have said. There is no difference between a shaman and alchemist and the druid scientists called pheryllts. Yet Kingsley (or his extensive review I read) makes no mention of that fact. Same with my nephew-in-law getting a Master's degree in Philosophy. They do this because they know what Kingsley only intimates (because he also has not studied what Pythagoras knew and could do) mankind is capable of great things through application of his soulful energy.

Now the same professors (one named Meier - as in an alchemist) have little coffee klatches and discuss what they call secular humanism - my oldest brother attends. He is finally seeing what I say about alchemy and the lie against the soul is still with our institutions.

It might interest you to know a member of every generation of those who got the monopoly on coinage ("Let me issue the money and I care not who runs the country." - Mayer Amschel Red-shield of Sol - o - moon) will be an adept in the arts they put their clan name on when Ficino translated the Corpus Hermeticum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2016 at 13:32
When addressing alchemists through the druids, I worry that we might end up with two things we don't understand, instead of just one.  Or maybe I should say, two things that _I_ don't understand, rather than one.  Others may understand one or both, but how communicable that understanding may be, is another thing.
But now that things are calming down, I can get back to my topic of "trade tokens."  To me it is interesting how something so little, and in modern eyes, unimportant, can open up a discussion on so much.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2016 at 02:19
To back up and get a better perspective on Pythagoras and coinage, we should look at how a medium effects us, and the human environment.

Think of the act of shoveling, we tend to do it quite naturally, hands on the handle, perched on one foot, using the other foot to push the blade of the shovel into the dirt.  We adults can do it without thinking, but there was a time when we had to learn it.  Likewise, think about what it would take to slide behind the steering wheel of a car.  I am not even talking about driving it, just the act of getting into the seat, to get ready to drive it.  Drivers have conditioned themselves to do that, and we don't think about it.  In fact, if you thought about it, that would probably be the time you would have difficulty doing so.  Looking at the driver's front seat, you would say to yourself that, 'there is not enough room for me in there!"  But you don't think about it, and you slide in fine.   

But whereas a shovel conditions how you stand and handle it to operate it, in other words, conditions your body and its memory.  Same thng with a car's driver seat and steering wheel.  It effects our bodies, more than it effects our mental states.  Communications media, on the other hand, condition how we think.  Communications media help our thinking in some ways, and hurt it in other ways.

Think about medieval manuscripts compared to the introduction of the printed book.  When the printed book came around, some aristocrats swore that they would never have a printed book in their library.  That was because the calligraphy and the illumination of medieval manuscripts made them a visual work of art, as well as a literary work of art.  The truth was _beautiful in vivid color, whereas now the truth is in black and white, much clearer because you don't necessarily have to battle with personal style of the scribe, but probably not as satisfying.  Printed books bring literacy to the people, not the peasants, but definitely out of being the private domain of the Church and the Aristocrats, to the rising middle class.

So we go from a setting where the visual beauty of the truth (illumination) is as important as the truth itself, to a setting where the truth is in black and white, good, bad, beautiful and ugly.  The truth comes from being in a service to a higher authority, God, the Church, whatever, to being the naked depiction of how things really are, warts and all.  Truth is divorced of beauty, and for some people, becomes less because of that.  In a Medieval Bestiary, the pictures are fantastic, the calligraphy beautiful, for the modern biological textbook, the pictures and drawings are accurate, the description clinical.  Which is more useful?  Well, it depends on what you want.
I think in the 20th century, the black and white truth, "just the facts maam.' goes to being a matter of power.  The personal computer allows so much versatility that we are overwhelmed by the choices.  We have all kinds of "power'" but at best a diffuse focus.  Computers, like any communications media, has affected how we think.  In the renaissance, you had men who were brilliant in general, and were polymaths, good at a wide variety of areas.  Today, we have scholars who are focused in one area, but cannot communicate their expertise to others outside of their area.  Everyone is an expert in the university, adept at the jargon of one little area, and the internet allows them to keep in touch with the few other people who understand them worldwide.  Yes, if the medieval view is beauty, and the post renaissance is truth, then the modern view is a love of power, shown best by the enormous potential of the computer, but a potential for what?
The computer is an amazing medium for communications, and it development has brought out the philosophical issue of the mind.  Do computers think?  If computers can think, then what does that mean for human beings.  Historically, we have referred to the mind and mentality as the subject that thinks, but if computers think, and computers are physical entities, then what about the meaning of "mental" talk.  Brains are physical entities, and so maybe when we talk about mental states, we are in an "unsophisticated" way, just talking about brain states.  Is mental talk illusory, or does it actually refer to something.  Computers and neural nets are helping scientists and philosophers to model how are 'mental' processes work.  Will there ever reach a point, where we will get rid of "mind" talk?  [my answer is no].

Of course, whether you believe or disbelieve in "mind" talk, is not the point, the point is that computers have opened up a whole new horizon in exploring and contemplating this area of philosophy.  Computers shape our thinking about whether or not mental talk means anything.

Which gets me to my point, just as computers open up a horizon for figuring out the mind, the brain, and what their relationship might be, coins in antiquity opened up a whole new realm in looking at, not the mind like computers did, but looking at reality (or existence) and what reality might mean.

to be continued.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2016 at 03:13
We deal with many abstractions in our daily life that have absolute values at a fixed points in time.  Money and the three point line in basketball would be two examples.  These absolute values are set by some authority but without the agreement of all players to recognize the authority's decision the game becomes unplayable.  Money is real it just doesn't have a physical existence, it is as real as our collective will makes it.  Coins on the other hand are both physical entities and money, they have an intrinsic value unlike the numbers floating around in computers today.  So yes coins do share something with manuscripts as opposed to printed books in general however they still share the common fate of all things in that in generally their intrinsic value tends to be set not only by demand but by the opinion of experts who in this case are collectors.  It shouldn't be suggested however that beauty and rarity are totally abstract.  Beauty is at least in part the effect of natural selection on the brain and rarity is a physical property.  

Computers have reduced the value of printed books to some extent as the same content is available in electronic versions.  Some things now have the value of the cost to transmit and store a few electrons forcing us to reexamine the value of a songs for example.  The value of printed or coined money as a necessity of trade is rapidly approaching zero outside of illegal transactions.  It seems unlikely however that coins, printed money, manuscripts, and books will ever lose their intrinsic value as long as people desire them.  Outside the necessities of life the value of things is dependant on complex communication.  This form of value is dependant on "free will" to the extent that free will exists and is therefor distinct from what current computers are capable of.  If and when computers have "free will" then they to will be able to generate abstract value.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2016 at 00:53
A fish cannot imagine what "wet" is, because he has never known anything else.  Likewise, in an intellectual world dominated by the printed book, the world of the printed book is likewise invisible.  The "biases" of that form of knowledge predominate, and the minimal influence of codices and scrolls, is well, minimal.  There are two times where a communications medium can reveal its nature, at the beginning of its reign, when like a juggernaut it is starting to take over, but the old way of communications are still habitual.  And at the end of its reign, when people know what it was like to be a world, say, before the credit card, before fiat currency, before anyone wanted mere paper.

Pythagoras and other early Greek philosophers were from a world, were oral tradition was still strong, but some saw the "writing on the wall," and it was writing which copied down the Iliad and the Odyssey.  "Homer's" overwhelming success doomed all other heroic Epics to oblivion, except for those stories that made into the (written) tragic plays of Aeschylus, Sophocles and Euripides.  The old world was being replaced by a new world of writing.  No longer could the king (archon) make up just anything when handing down a sentence, the laws were inscribed on stone for anyone to read, for that 10 percent that might be able to manage.  But still, the early Archaic age was an age of lawgivers.  Law (nomos) came to displace the king, king's were still there, but in a diminished capacity.  More as a religious figure, I am sure you will like that wolfie.;)

Coinage is another medium that begins around 650.  Probably starting as badges indicating the representative of important people, their origin came out of signet rings and seal stones.  Aristotle talks about their creation in an economic system, but the coins probably came first, and the economic system came afterward.  Coins, first representing individuals, soon were eclipsed by city-states manufacturing them for not only their economic value, but also as propaganda.  Each Greek city saw themselves as pretty important people, reinforced by the ethnic on their coins, and by their laws.  

As a philosopher, I don't like to attribute everything to mere technological developments, but the birth of the Classical Greek world came out of the Archaic age and its inventions, writing and coinage.  These fed fed into written laws, nature instead of tradition, mathematics, and a secular view point in literature.  This all started in Ionia, but it reached its greatest flowering with Classical Athens.  It is hard to understand just how influential coinage as a medium was in the Archaic age, but perhaps we can start to understand because the influence of coinage, in our own era, is letting go, and waning in its hold.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2016 at 02:50
"mere technological developments" is disturbing because humans evolved after technology and as a consequence of technology.  Included in that technology would be the language than philosophers use. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2016 at 23:57
Listen to what I mean, not what I say:P  <grin>

Some people would like to reduce everything to material development.  I do not consider ideas to be material, but they are quite important in the evolution of a society.  Some would like to make the causation go from physical changes to intellectual (mental) changes, making ideas epiphenomena of the physical world.  You may think that if you like, but I think the causality goes back the other way as well, sometime making a run away reaction as technology and technique feed into, and are fed by ideas.  Which comes first?  The chicken or the egg is a less important question than how the two fit and work together.

But to talk about coinage, or as we would say, money.  Coinage is the first mass produced object, everything is equal to money, although in itself it is useless.  As they say with paper money today, you can't even wipe your backside with it.  What it does, is that it allows for the accumulation of wealth to a far greater extent than a barter economy allows.  How many toasters or chairs do you need?  After a certain point more physical objects equals less wealth, as things get cluttered.  Think of the modern hoarder.  As Carlin said, you need somewhere to put your stuff, so you can get more stuff, but money in the form of coinage allows for the neat accumulation of wealth.  With coinage, you don't have to worry about whether you can find someone to take extra amphorae off your hands.  Bury coins in a hoard, or put them in a bank, either way it represents portable wealth, something that one doesn't have with bronze tripods, piles of grain, or cattle (well, that is not exactly true, regarding cattle).  You don't have to feed gold and silver, you don't have to take care of it either.  Whether or not one considers it progress, depends on where one is standing.  The Phoenicians stayed on a barter system for a long time after coinage was adopted by the Greek world.  Again, the earliest coins were c. 650-625 BC, it is hard to know precisely when they begin, for they are dated by relative means like stratigraphy and what layer a hoard is in.  Egypt did not start making coins, until right before Alexander (334).
But in any case, technology feed into the world of ideas, and visa versa.  We see different reactions to the introduction of coinage from various philosophers.

Pythagoras of Samos (530 BC), in addition to making coinage, came to have a mathematical view of nature, this was influenced by both geometry and arithmetic.  
Coinage is precious metal of a particular weight, stamped by an emblem of some authority.  You are not "supposed" to add together apples and oranges, but coins made the perfect quanta for the practice of arithmetic and the exploration of number theory.  Sure, the Pythagorean practiced with pebbles, but coinage "required" people to care about math, because in a monetary economy, caring about math is caring about wealth.
Now coinage also contributed to geometry through emphasis of geography.  A "coin" is a coin _of_ Athens, Miletus, Thebes or Corinth, or somewhere else.  Coinage feed into civic pride, and so when Pythagoras went from one end of the Greek world (Samos) to the other (Croton, in Italy), he not only brought himself, but he also brought the promise of putting Croton and the other Italian Greek cities on the map, both literally and figuratively, by making the some _place_, a place with coinage.

Xenophanes of Colophon (contemporary of Pythagoras, 6th century BC), Xenophanes is our earliest testimony saying that coinage was invented in Lydia.  The type or emblem of Lydian coinage is a lion, and when Velia, the earliest city to start minting in Southern Italy, _besides_ those influenced by Pythagoras, started, they chose a lion devouring prey as the emblem.

Heraclitus of Ephesus (fl. 495 BC).  The basic constituent of the world for Heraclitus was fire.  Heraclitus said, "all things are exchanged for fire, as gold is for goods."

Protagoras of Abdera (fl. 450).  A sophist, a philosopher who emphasized the subjective nature of truth,  "man is the measure of all things, of what is, that is, of what is not, that it is not."  Around the same time, bronze coinage begins to be adopted by Greek cities as a kind of fiat coinage for small denominations.  Protagoras, a friend of Pericles, plans the constitution for the Athenian colony of Thurium in Italy (founded 443 BC).  Plato mocks the sophists in his dialogues. 

Empedocles of Akragas (fl. 440) writer of a philosophical poem, advocates the four elements (air, earth, fire, water), and the force of love and strife.  A traditional interpretation of some coins from the Sicilian city of Silenus is that they commemorate Empedocles diverting a river to flush out a swamp, causing illness to the city.  The tendency today however, is for scholars to be more sceptical regarding this interpretation.

Democritus of Abdera (fl. 420) advocate of atomism, the idea of tiny indivisible particles which are the constituents of all things (except void).  Anyone seeing the ridiculously small coins put out by some cities in silver and in gold, can see where atomism came from.  Some Archaic cities have coins of electrum (alloy of silver and gold) down to the size of 1/96th of a stater, the stater being the top denomination for these coins.  Classical Athens also had very small silver coins instead of bronze 'fiat' currency, since Athens had silver mines.  People would carry small change in their cheeks, according to Aristophanes.

Abdera actually has a coin that probably depicts Pythagoras, sometime after his lifetime.

To be continued

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2016 at 08:12
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Listen to what I mean, not what I say:P  <grin>

Some people would like to reduce everything to material development.  I do not consider ideas to be material, but they are quite important in the evolution of a society.  


I'm going to have more to say but right now I'm tired.  

If you are saying the brain is not material then I guess you can say that language is not a physical technology?  Now it is true that you can't do much carpentry with your bare hands or much thinking with a bare brain.  You need cultural transmission to prevent bare brains but culture is an accumulative process that starts as far as we know with stone tools 2.4 million years before modern humans evolved.

Language is unfortunately not preserved in the archaeological record but it seems likely what we think of as spoken language follows stone tools chronologically.  The question of the physical brain and the mind has long plagued philosophers but I would dismiss it as a chicken and egg fallacy.   

The material nature of information is an interesting question.  The more esoteric question is if the physical world and information is a false dichotomy.

Landauer's principle is a physical principle pertaining to the lower theoretical limit ofenergy consumption of computation. It holds that "any logically irreversible manipulation of information, such as the erasure of a bit or the merging of two computation paths, must be accompanied by a corresponding entropy increase in non-information-bearing degrees of freedom of the information-processing apparatus or its environment" "


Landauer's principle has been confirmed (well Maybe)





Edited by wolfhnd - 05 Apr 2016 at 08:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2016 at 19:26
no, brain is physical, mind is mental.  Utterances are physical, ideas are mental.  numbers as drawn on the page, are physical, mathematics is mental.  At least they are according to Plato, and Godel.

The dates I use are flourits or when the individual flourished.  Traditionally, that is at age 40.

Plato of Athens (fl. 384); 
To continue about the influence of coinage on philosophy, Plato tells in the Republic about the ring of Gyges.  Gyges is the Lydian ruler long before Plato.  The ring is a magic ring, when you turn the bezel so the face is inside, the wearer becomes invisible.  The topic of the Republic is justice, and the question is whether someone will do what is just, when they can act with impunity.  To me, the magic ring is like coinage, coinage is anonymous, the user is invisible before and after the transaction.  The user, if they have enough money can also become invulnerable.  The character of Socrates in the Republic, says that one should do what is just, regardless of the consequences, and he elaborates on justice by showing it writ large in a description of the ideal polis. 

Midas is another mythical king, who of course, was said to turn everything into gold by his touch.  Of course, he couldn't eat, and in some versions he turned his daughter into gold, thus proving that money isn't everything.

Last there is the Lydian king of Croesus, and the expression, "rich as Croesus."  But when Croesus reportedly as Solon who was the happiest, Solon named others, letting Croesus know that one should call 'no man happy until his fate is known.'

A pseudo-Platonic dialogue, the Hipparchus, discusses the nature of profit.  Rather than being a complete counterfeit, this is something probably written in the Academy.  One type of profit is a zero sum game, if you have it, I don't, if I have it, you don't.  The other type of profit is what we would call 'all boats float at high tide."  If I teach you something, then that makes us both richer.

Aristotle (fl. 344)  Aristotle in the Politics asserts that coinage was invented when people, looking at long distance trade, decided to use coinage instead of carrying bulky cargo.  It is a good story, but archaeology shows it unlikely.  But the point is, philosophers were thinking and hypothesizing about coinage in antiquity, whether they understood it or not.

There is a pseudo-Aristotelian treatise called the Economics, which gets into all the little dirty tricks that rulers do (mainly tyrants), in order to raise money. 

Diogenes of Sinope (fl. 374)  Known as Diogenes the Cynic, or Diogenes the dog.  If possessions owe us, then Diogenes was the most free man ever, he had a cloak, a rucksack and a cup, seeing a child drink with his hands, he felt ashamed and threw away his cup.  When he was young, he went to Delphi and was told that he should "counterfeit the currency."  There is some question about what this means, but he seems to have interpreted it as "debase the currency."  His family ran the mint in Sinope, and there are coins slightly debased (alloyed with base metals) with the mint official of "DIO" on the coins.  (Mark Marotta)  He got run out of town, and made his way to Athens.  He re-interpreted the oracle that he should, counterfeit the currency as in flaunt convention.
A modern interpretation of "counterfeit the currency" is that it mean de-face the currency, marring the coin externally but not effecting its value.  This is how Jacques Derrida interprets it, and while I think that is wrong, there are sources in antiquity that are in line with that interpretation.

Coinage has influenced philosophy, and general culture; and philosophy has influenced coinage and the monetary system.  When coinage was introduced, it is no longer business as usual, but trade and the Greek city-state are energized by the introduction.  That energy goes into the independence and pride of the mainland Greeks against the Persians, and the Sicilian Greeks against the Carthaginians (at the same time), and then the hubris of Athens and Sparta in the Peloponnesian War.  Greek pride eventually led to a divided Greek world being taken over by a united Rome.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2016 at 23:09
The problem of course is that culture exists independent of the people that produce it who are in turn a product of the same culture.  Genius is a collective and incremental enterprise.

Edited by wolfhnd - 06 Apr 2016 at 23:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2016 at 00:07
Determinism usually relies on a view of physics that is mechanical, Newtonian.  We do know, however, there is another level where strange stuff goes on, the world of the quantum mechanics.  Most of what we do is in line with the Newtonian world, but also the brain works on the quantum level, as well as basic determined mechanical action. 

The argument that people are not responsible for their criminal actions is also available to the jury, judge or law enforcement.  If  a criminal is not responsible, then why should the jury be responsible if they feel like they should execute or even torture the criminal?  The jury after all is just acting out their motivation in wanting to do away with the heinous criminal, just as it is not the criminal's fault, neither is it anyone else's fault if the criminals gets what he "deserves."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 2016 at 08:29
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Determinism usually relies on a view of physics that is mechanical, Newtonian.  We do know, however, there is another level where strange stuff goes on, the world of the quantum mechanics.  Most of what we do is in line with the Newtonian world, but also the brain works on the quantum level, as well as basic determined mechanical action. 

The argument that people are not responsible for their criminal actions is also available to the jury, judge or law enforcement.  If  a criminal is not responsible, then why should the jury be responsible if they feel like they should execute or even torture the criminal?  The jury after all is just acting out their motivation in wanting to do away with the heinous criminal, just as it is not the criminal's fault, neither is it anyone else's fault if the criminals gets what he "deserves."

I don't know in physicists that would agree with determinism being dependant on that view.  As far as I can tell they are happy to hold on to determinism despite quantum mechanics.

As far as I can tell there is no evidence of quantum computing in the brain.

I don't want to distract from your general thread direction as I have already done.  I do want to frame your discussion in terms of your personal world view.  For example is the use of coins discovered or created?  How much of what we consider genus is just expressed cultural evolution? 


Edited by wolfhnd - 09 Apr 2016 at 08:39
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