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Atlantis

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Category: GENERAL HISTORY
Forum Name: Alternative History
Forum Description: Share alternative historical theories here
URL: http://www.worldhistoria.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=129847
Printed Date: 23 Sep 2019 at 01:32
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Topic: Atlantis
Posted By: Domino
Subject: Atlantis
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 14:15
What if North America was once Atlantis?

Hello everyone, I have been studying Atlantis for over twenty years. During that time, I have collected information that lead me to a conclusion that I would like to share with you. I believe that North America was Plato’s continent of Atlantis.


I also believe that Florida was the Plain of Atlantis, Tampa was the city of Atlantis and Harbour Island, near Tampa, was the Island of Atlantis. I also believe that I have enough visual evidence to support that claim. Also, I will post information so you can examine it and evaluate it yourself. 


After giving you a little background info, I will answer any questions you might have regarding Atlantis.





Replies:
Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 20:51
Not possible. Don't want to be negative but Plato wasn't writing history, he was writing a morality tale, and used stories about the explosion of Thera as the basis. Of course a small island off the greek coast wasn't large or tragic enough, and no-one with any knowledge of the Mediterranean was going to accept a larger land mass in known waters, sunken or not, thus he chose to place his tale out beyond the Pillars of Hercules where it could not be dismissed by nit-picking self professed experts. It was, therefore, an early form of science fiction. A tale wrapped around a location beyond human reach, as it was understood back then.
 
Supporters of the Atlantis myth have placed the continent just about everywhere around the globe, and North America isn't unusual. However, North America is still above the waters. Not really consistent with the plot, I'd say :D


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http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: Domino
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2019 at 03:49
 Background info on Atlantis

The story of Atlantis is extremely complex. Information about it has been translated and passed down from generation to generation for thousands of years. During that time, some of the terms in the language have changed, mistakes have been made in translation, and assumptions have been presented as true statements. This encoded the language of the original story. 


It is now impossible to break the code without concrete reliable evidence. When I learned that North America was Atlantis, I matched the actual terrain features in America with those Plato wrote about in describing Atlantis.


I will post quotes from Plato’s writings then decode the quotes, interpret them, and match them to the actual terrain features. Also, I will add a map link to the terrain features when necessary. You will have Plato’s quote, my interpretation of the quote, and the terrain features. I would like to know how you interpret the same quotes and terrain features.


To verify the qluotes, read Plato’s description of Atlantis. It is only about 13 paragraphs. The entire story of Atlantis is only 24 paragraphs.  It is online:

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/critias.html - http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/critias.html


The story of Atlantis starts with this paragraph. Find it half way down the page:


Plato, Critias telling the story:

“I have before remarked in speaking of the allotments of the gods, that they distributed the whole earth into portions differing in extent, and made for themselves temples and instituted sacrifices. And Poseidon, receiving for his lot the island of Atlantis, begat children by a mortal woman, and settled them in a part of the island, which I will describe. Looking towards the sea, but in the centre of the whole island, there was a plain which is said to have been the fairest of all plains and very fertile. Near the plain again, and also in the centre of the island at a distance of about fifty stadia, there was a mountain not very high on any side.”


Explanation

Plato called North America an island. He called North America and South America together, “The whole island”. The part of the continent Poseidon settled his family in was Florida. The exact location in Florida was Tampa. Looking across the Gulf of Mexico, from the center of the whole island, you can see the Florida Plain on the map. Finally, there are no mountains in Florida.  The mountain that is not high on either side was mistranslated. It is hill. Plato later refers to it as a hill.


Poseidon was the father of Atlas. The continent, ocean, and the island with the three large canals around it were all named Atlantis, after Atlas. You will find out later that Plato referred to another  continent opposite of Atlantis. That was South America.



Posted By: truthsetsfree
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2019 at 06:40

I once thought similar that Atlantis was North America and the plain and city were somewhere around N America like off the east coast of Florida. But i couldn't find any site there that matches all the details and later i eneded up finding Atlantis was in South America with the city at Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku.
Florida can't be the large plain because it is not surrounded by high mountains like the one in the Atlantis Account is said to be.
Any location has to match all the details of the Account including size, direction, distance, large plain, high mountains (surrounding), concentric circles city, remains of civislation, "sinking", many species of animals, bulls, elephants, etc.

Caldrail:
One has to first objectively look to see if there is any match with history first matching all the details of/in the source with as little bending/omitting as possible.
Also, "once sunk always sunk" is not always true. The account only says it was overwhelmed by water at that time, it doesn't say what happened since after then until now.
Also, English translations are often notoriously misleading/poor/inaccurate.



Posted By: Domino
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2019 at 07:46
I will explain everything one item at a time as I go along. In the meantime, I have a question for you. If you thought North America was the continent of Atlantis, the Plain of Atlantis was the next big step. Can you measure the Florida Plain now and compare it to the Plain of Atlantis? Then study Tampa? That will put you back on track.


I am going to post information about the country of Atlantis then the mountains of Atlantis, then every else including the island and the concentric circles.  Eventually I will cover everything on your list. I am taking it slow now because few people have read Plato’s description of Atlantis so they don’t have all those details. 


The link to Plato's story is here:  http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/critias.html - http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/critias.html



Posted By: truthsetsfree
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2019 at 12:06

The large plain with criss-crossing channels is seen in this Inca picture:



Also seen in the picture are other things also matching other details in the Atlantis Account including the concentric circles city.



Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 00:42
Hi Domino,
There are records of islands sinking and re submerging, I read the account by Plato and of geological changes that can be considered. Are you suggesting that Sugar Loaf Mountain in Tampa is the 'big hill'? What latitude is the mountain seen from, the tip of Yucatan or a hill on the Yucatan? 
Edgar Cayce talked about the mountain and the resurfacing to occur in the Bimini area of the Atlantic shelf.
Not much elevation at the Yucatan Peninsula today, but most of it was shaped by the crater.
Thanks
 
The land we now call Florida began to form by a combination of volcanic activity and the deposit of marine sediments. It formed along northwest Africa about 530 million years ago.

http://https://fcit.usf.edu/florida/lessons/land/land.htm - http://https://fcit.usf.edu/florida/lessons/land/land.htm
In earliest times, Florida was part of Gondwanaland, the super continent that later divided into Africa and South America. There is evidence that Florida separated from Gondwanaland about 300 million years ago.

Florida eventually found itself wedged between Gondwanaland and North America when they combined to form the super continent Pangea. When Pangea began to break up, Florida remained behind with North America.

Florida slipped slowly beneath the waves to become part of North America�s continental shelf. The landmass that is now Florida remained shallowly submerged beneath the ocean. Coral, shellfish, and fish skeletons piled up. This created a layer of limestone hundreds (in some places thousands) of feet thick.

As the Appalachian Mountains eroded, sand and clay were deposited over Florida�s limestone layer. Much of the quartz sand covering the state today came from the rocks of that mountain chain.

Throughout most of its history, Florida has been under water. Portions of the Florida peninsula have been above or below sea level at least four times. As glaciers of ice in the north expanded and melted, the Florida peninsula emerged and submerged.

When the sea level was lowest, the land area of Florida was much larger than it is now. The sea level was as much as 100 feet lower than at present. Florida�s west coastline was probably 100 miles further out. As the climate warmed, the glaciers melted. This raised the sea level and flooded the Florida peninsula. The sea level stood at least 100 to 150 feet above the present level. Florida probably consisted of islands.

The formation of the Florida Keys occurred when tiny coral created a 150-mile long chain of underwater coral reefs. As the landmass of southern Florida began its slow rise, the reefs also began to emerge.

The Florida peninsula is the emergent portion of the Florida Platform. This is a wide, relatively flat land formation. The Florida Platform lies between the deep waters of the Gulf of Mexico and the Atlantic Ocean. Florida's landscape varies widely. Many of Florida�s prominent features have resulted from karst, a landscape with a base layer of limestone. Because limestone is porous, freshwater gradually dissolves the rock and forms cracks and passages.

The limestone layer of the state is honeycombed with underground rivers. Where the rivers break through to the surface, springs and sinkholes are found. Lakes and wetlands are abundant.

Although Florida is relatively flat, there are different elevations. They range from 0 to 320 feet above sea level. The highest elevations in the state are in the central highlands, which run down the center of the state.



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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Domino
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 04:27
 Hello Vanuatu,


I am suggestion that during the time of Atlantis, the Florida Plain looked the same then as it does today. In order to see what I saying, you have to look at the bigger picture. Plato called North America an island. Later, he said that part of this island was sheltered from the North. The whole state of Florida is sheltered from the cold coming from the North. The Mountains that shelter Florida and other states are  the Appalachian Mountains. See the map below. The whole state of Florida was the Plain of Atlantis.


The Mountains of Atlantis

“The surrounding mountains were celebrated for their number and size and beauty, far beyond any which still exist, having in them also many wealthy villages of country folk, and rivers, and lakes, and meadows supplying food enough for every animal, wild or tame, and much wood of various sorts, abundant for each and every kind of work.” 


Note: The Appalachian Mountains surround the plain to the North. Take your time and read Plato’s story of Atlantis. You will find that all of the terrain features have been given their modern-day names.

https://goo.gl/maps/A7gBiJwVkh4YTXr59 - https://goo.gl/maps/A7gBiJwVkh4YTXr59



Posted By: truthsetsfree
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 06:10
Vanuatu: The "big hill" in the centre of the royal island capital city is the Akapana in centre of Tiahuanaco.
Atlanteans would have made many copy sites at other places around the world that they visited.

Pictures from my original searching may be of interest since i originally had a similar theory before i found South America matched better/instead http://picasaweb.google.com/seanbam2/Antipodean - http://picasaweb.google.com/seanbam2/Antipodean .

Anyway i will not interrupt Domino anymore and give them a chance to post their info and read with interest.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 06:31
Thanks, I did read Plato's account at the link. I don't see how you can tell where the viewer is when he see the mountains/hill. 

Where is the viewer when he sees Appalachian mountains?
Tiahuanaco is described in a way that matches Cayce's description of Atlantis fyi. That would be modern scholars discussion of Tiahuanaco during it's zenith.





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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Domino
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 08:05
Here is a link to a map image. Notice how the Appalachian Mountains block the cold air from the north. This shields the Florida part of the continent from the winter weather. Remember that in Atlantis they got two crops a year. That is the same as Florida. Reference that in Plato's story.

Vanuatu:
https://www.freeworldmaps.net/united-states/us-mountain-ranges-map.html - https://www.freeworldmaps.net/united-states/us-mountain-ranges-map.html


Posted By: Domino
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 11:53
The Country of Atlantis

We have spent lots of time on the Plain, Continent, and mountains. Now lets  study the Country of Atlantis.


Regarding the country of Atlantis and Poseidon’s ten sons: The country seems to have included the Florida Plain, Georgia, and Mexico. According to Plato, all of this could have been known as Atlas’s mother’s dwelling.

Link

https://goo.gl/maps/CeDALws2gqy - https://goo.gl/maps/CeDALws2gqy


Plato: “he gave to the first-born of the eldest pair his mother’s dwelling and the surrounding allotment, which was the largest and best, and made him king over the rest; the others he made princes, and gave them rule over many men, and a large territory. … And he named them all; the eldest, who was the first king, he named Atlas, and after him the whole island and the ocean were called Atlantic.”  


Plato:

“The whole country was said by him to be very lofty and precipitous on the side of the sea, but the country immediately about and surrounding the city was a level plain, itself surrounded by mountains, which descended towards the sea. It was smooth and even, and of an oblong shape, extending in one direction three thousand stadia, but across the centre inland it was two thousand stadia. This part of the island looked towards the south, and was sheltered from the north.”


Florida, Georgia, and Mexico were in the country of Atlantis. Atlanta might have been a city in Atlantis.


Note: Notice that the Appalachian Mountains descends  towards the ocean.




Posted By: Domino
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2019 at 03:31
The Convoluted Nature of Atlantis


Plato

“and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbor, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.”


According to Plato, Atlantis was the size of North America and Florida was the size of The Atlantis Plain. We have matched those land masses to Plato’s descriptions.


Plato gave detail descriptions of the continent, the country of Atlantis, the Plain of Atlantis, the city of Atlantis, the small island of Atlantis, and a hill that held the royal palace. This small circular hill that had three tiny moats around it can also be called an island. 


However, the island of Atlantis was much larger and its shape was triangular not circular. Plato even mentioned a second continent that was opposite to the continent of Atlantis, which is South America:


Note: North America and South America make up the boundless continent that surround the Atlantic Ocean. North America was Atlantis.




Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2019 at 12:14
I am wondering if you are missing something.  There are _two_ passages about Atlantis in Plato, one in _the_Timaeus_ and the other in the fragment _Critias_.  From what you have said so far, Domino, I cannot help but think that you have missed the more important passage, in _the_Timaeus_.  Also, there was planned a third work in the trilogy, the Hermocrates(?), of which we only have the name.


Posted By: Domino
Date Posted: 10 Aug 2019 at 13:34
Hi franciscosan,

“Fragment Critias” is much shorter than the “Timaeus and Critias.” I choose the Timaeus and Critias because that is the part of Plato’s story that talks the most about the location of Atlantis and the terrain features. If I try to switch back and fourth between the two, I would cause more confusion. In that case something is missing.


My main goal now is to establish the fact that the state of Florida was the Plain of Atlantis and  that the Appalachian Mountains were the mountains of Atlantis, according to Plato. When we understand that, the other pieces can fall into place. From there, we will match the other descriptions of the terrain features found on the plain.




Posted By: Domino
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2019 at 02:56
 The Plain of Atlantis

Plato: 

“Looking towards the sea, but in the centre of the whole island, there was a plain which is said to have been the fairest of all plains and very fertile.”  “I will now describe the plain, as it was fashioned by nature and by the labors of many generations of kings through long ages. It was, for the most part, rectangular and oblong, and where falling out of the straight line followed the circular ditch.” 


Regarding the plain of Atlantis: You will recognize it as the Florida Plain. Looking across the Gulf of Mexico, from the center of the boundless continent, there is a plain… Plato called the two continents together the whole island.

Link

https://goo.gl/maps/e6nH2CRZEbC2 - https://goo.gl/maps/e6nH2CRZEbC2



Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2019 at 03:26
Time to take Domino's side.  Besides Atlantis there could have been another island called Mu.  Here is a map of Mu  
https://hiddenincatours.com/lost-pacific-continent-of-mu-or-lemuria-what-is-the-evidence/ - https://hiddenincatours.com/lost-pacific-continent-of-mu-or-lemuria-what-is-the-evidence/  

It was also advanced like Atlantis, and the maps show Atlantis.  Here is a plausible argument for large masses being submerged, and it goes with the link.

Quote

The end of the last ice age we know now was a very rapid event, and 12,000 years ago the world’s oceans were 350 lower than they are today, thus, low lying land from that time would now be submerged. My candidate for Mu is in fact Hawaii, which I briefly explain below…


Posted By: Domino
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2019 at 04:09
Originally posted by Athena Athena wrote:

Plato: “he gave to the first-born of the eldest pair his mother’s dwelling and the surrounding allotment, which was the largest and best, and made him king over the rest; the others he made princes, and gave them rule over many men, and a large territory. … And he named them all; the eldest, who was the first king, he named Atlas, and after him the whole island and the ocean were called Atlantic.”  

This quote will help others understand, that north America was divided into ten countries during the time of Atlantis. One of those countries was Atlantis. Florida, Georgia, and Mexico was in the country of Atlantis. Also, some of the older dictionaries claim that Atlanta Georgia was named after Atlantis. Plato also mentioned mountains and lakes. I believe he was referring to the Appalachian Mountain range and the Great Lakes. Each country had a king and the king of Atlantis was king over the other nine countries.


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2019 at 04:30
We have more evidence of a civilization lost at the end of the ice age off the land mass of India.  I suspect the Bible has prejudiced us and our knowledge of human history.  

Quote By BBC News Online's Tom Housden

The remains of what has been described as a huge lost city may force historians and archaeologists to radically reconsider their view of ancient human history.

Marine scientists say archaeological remains discovered 36 metres (120 feet) underwater in the Gulf of Cambay off the western coast of India could be over 9,000 years old.

The vast city - which is five miles long and two miles wide - is believed to predate the oldest known remains in the subcontinent by more than 5,000 years.   http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1768109.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1768109.stm

 

This could be the event that led to the flood story and Yoga may have originated here.  the "mantric literature" speaks of the Vedic literature.

Quote  The many thousands of pages of this mantric literature dwarf all that the rest of the world has managed to save from such early eras. Yet instead of putting Vedic literature on par with the Pyramids of Egypt in terms of civilizational achievements, scholars reduce the Vedas to the rantings of illiterate nomads from Central Asia, who by all accounts should have left no literature anyway. The spiritual wisdom of the Vedic mantras is ignored according to a view that theVedas are only a nature poetry of barbarian invaders. This is in spite of the fact that the Vedas were the foundation for the great yogic and mystical traditions of Asia through Hindu and Buddhist traditions and the whole science of Yoga, which frequently refer to them.   https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/esp_cienciaindia_5.htm - https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/esp_cienciaindia_5.htm

 




Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2019 at 05:13
Domino, my eyes tire and I can not read the full Critias by Plato.  Can you perhaps copy and paste the exact lines that would lead anyone to believe Atlantis would be Florida?  

I very much appreciate your link!  It is nothing, NOTHING, like the story of creation of the Bible, but of  gods respecting each others territory and who rule as shepherds, (Jesus is "the word" and rules as a Shepherd) only instead of herding us with blows, they guide us with reason.    Now that is creation story for democracy.  The Bible is NOT a book for democracy.  Sorry this is so off topic, but your link has a more important meaning to me than the location of Atlantis.  

Anyway perhaps you can help me get back on track with the lines for believing Atlantis could be Florida.  





Posted By: Domino
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2019 at 06:53
Athena,

Give me a couple of hours and I will post information regarding a terrain feature that Plato wrote about. This feature can be verified by you. Since Plato wrote about it and it fits the Florida Plain, it must be true.




Posted By: Domino
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2019 at 08:54
 Island of Atlantis

Here is a link to the island if Atlantis. We will discuss the three circular canals later. 

https://goo.gl/maps/L7GRRvyrax12 - https://goo.gl/maps/L7GRRvyrax12

Critias/Plato:

“And beginning from the sea, they bored a canal of three hundred feet in width and one hundred feet in depth and fifty stadia in length, which they carried through to the outermost zone, making a passage from the sea up to this, which became a harbor, and leaving an opening sufficient to enable the largest vessels to find ingress.”

“Now, the largest of the zones into which a passage was cut from the sea was three stadia in breadth, and the zone of land which came next of equal breadth; but the next two zones, the one of water, the other of land, were two stadia, and the one which surrounded the central island was a stadium only in width. The island in which the palace was situated had a diameter of five stadia (.5 miles across).”

“Also, gardens and places of exercise, some for men, and others for horses, on both of the two islands formed by the zones. In the centre of the larger of the two there was set apart a racecourse of a stadium in width, and in length allowed to extend all-round the island, for horses to race in.”


Regarding the island of Atlantis: You will recognize it as Harbour Island, which is triangular.  It is surrounded by straight canals, not circular canals.

 

In order to make the island of Atlantis, they had to cut through the peninsular, which Plato called a Wise. We will be discussing this Island a lot more. Questions?



Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2019 at 01:05
Well, Edgar Cayce did predict it would be found.  

Quote For some years A.R.E. members and the organization itself have conducted expeditions in search of ruins or any remains of the lost continent of Atlantis. According to Cayce, Atlantis—located from the Gulf of Mexico to Gibraltar—was destroyed in a final catastrophic event circa 10,000 B.C. The focus of A.R.E. efforts has been in the Bimini area, however, other related locations have also been investigated. Research on the so-called Bimini Road has been hampered as researchers are split on the origin of the structure: some believe it is a manmade road or foundation while others assert it is natural beach rock, which fractured in place. However, a seldom-discussed fact is that a portion of the Bimini Road was removed after a hurricane in 1926.   https://www.edgarcayce.org/the-readings/ancient-mysteries/atlantis/ - https://www.edgarcayce.org/the-readings/ancient-mysteries/atlantis/


Posted By: Domino
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2019 at 03:45
Before we explore the island of Atlantis any further, let’s take a look at the circular ditch that Plato mentioned earlier. The ditch will bring us back to the island.


Posted By: Domino
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2019 at 03:53

Before we explore the island of Atlantis any further, let’s take a look at the circular ditch that Plato mentioned earlier. The ditch will bring us back to the island.


The Circular Ditch of Atlantis


Plato:

“The depth, and width, and length of this ditch were incredible, and gave the impression that a work of such extent, in addition to so many others, could never have been artificial. Nevertheless, I must say what I was told.” It was excavated to the depth of a hundred, feet, and its breadth was a stadium everywhere; it was carried round the whole of the plain, and was ten thousand stadia in length. It received the streams which came down from the mountains, and winding round the plain and meeting at the city, was there let off into the sea.”

Link: https://goo.gl/maps/Y7acgU6nPPn175Jw7 - https://goo.gl/maps/Y7acgU6nPPn175Jw7


The ditch is now the Indian River. Follow it around to the city.



Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2019 at 21:50
Quote One has to first objectively look to see if there is any match with history first matching all the details of/in the source with as little bending/omitting as possible.
Also, "once sunk always sunk" is not always true. The account only says it was overwhelmed by water at that time, it doesn't say what happened since after then until now.
Also, English translations are often notoriously misleading/poor/inaccurate.
Well, that might be strictly true, but one is left with a complete absence of archaeology relating to a supposed 'Atlantis' in the risen geography. I am always perplexed at how easily many people accept Atlantis as some kind of fact without the slightest genuine evidence whatsoever. It is partly human psychology of course. The idea of a former golden age is something we often wish for - the Roman Empire was regarded in that light after it had gone - and the idea of powerful civilisations in the past seem to be all the more potent the more ancient and obscure they are. However, Atlantis stems from one literary work and does not form part of any consistent legend with the rest of the world. Whilst flood legends occur in many cultures, these are more often evolved from local events as coast lines rise and fall (there's a temple in Greece on top of a cliff that was for a while under water. Not because of floods or sea levels, but because the coast is part of the encroachment of the African Plate toward the European, resulting in land forms that 'wobble' up and down under pressure. Also there is a cliff in Scotland with sea pebbles on top. Britain is slowly tipping over as the Atlantic widens, as well as still rising from the release of ice weight during the last major glaciation)


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http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: Domino
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2019 at 05:02
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Well, that might be strictly true, but one is left with a complete absence of archaeology relating to a supposed 'Atlantis' in the risen geography. I am always perplexed at how easily many people accept Atlantis as some kind of fact without the slightest genuine evidence whatsoever. 


I have posted information showing that Plato described the Florida Plain as the plain of Atlantis. I sent a link that connects to the great ditch that Plato wrote about. The ditch takes you around the plain to  the island of Atlantis which Plato described in detail. The reason no one has studied the archeology is because no one knows it is there. 


If I send you links to five archeological sites, would you take a brief look at them? This is five of hundreds or perhaps thousands of archeological site on the Florida Plain. Americans are building their homes on beautifully carved landscapes that the people left behind.


https://goo.gl/maps/UdSsvZtSdZG3QYF76 - https://goo.gl/maps/UdSsvZtSdZG3QYF76

https://goo.gl/maps/yvD96TZioqBvS2Yu9 - https://goo.gl/maps/yvD96TZioqBvS2Yu9

https://goo.gl/maps/Rvtg9GxHoBqrSHJX7 - https://goo.gl/maps/Rvtg9GxHoBqrSHJX7

https://goo.gl/maps/KfNbHwxfnUN3TapS8 - https://goo.gl/maps/KfNbHwxfnUN3TapS8

https://goo.gl/maps/YFvB7aoUQGBEF9pt5 - https://goo.gl/maps/YFvB7aoUQGBEF9pt5


All of the canals were 100 feet deep during the time of Atlantis. I think Plato should get credit for his work.



Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2019 at 22:14
Ye-e-e-e-e-esss... Well, I think it's important to remember context and not jump to absurd conclusions. Von Daniken and his imitators for instance often do this, making ad hoc modern interpretations of ancient remains to suit their own sensibilities when the context of these remains is already known and agreed.
The classic is the 'rocket bike man' in Maya imagery. It's actually a depiction of Mankind climbing the Tree of Life (itself an extraordinary glimpse into Maya education and mindset) and does not represent a rather unsafe form of transport however much those writers seek evidence of ancient technology.
 
You claim Plato was describing the Florida Plain. No, he was describing an Atlantean plain, itself extrapolated from the geography of Santorini and expanded to create a minor continent 'larger than Libya'. If you want to believe that was Florida, well, so be it, but the geography of that area doesn't seem all that consistent with Plato's work. Nor was it ever intended to be. Pl;ato did not write about the American continent, but a large island somewhere beyond the Pillars of Hercules. He was thinking in terms of Greek travel distances.
 
I have to admit however that exploits of ancient mariners are underestimated. A Chinese envoy was sent to find the Roman Empire and ask them for military assistance against marauding tribesmen. He reached the Persian Gulf and asked sailors whether a ship could take him to Rome. yes, the sailors answered, but one would have to go around Africa and that's at least three months travel with favourable winds, and one would be advised to take rations for three years. Quite a statement from an era who weren't supposed to know much about the world outside the Mediterranean.


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Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 08:04
There is a problem with clinging to scientific absolutism. The Travel.com lists 15 cities around the world currently submerged with ten more soon to be underwater. The evidence of advanced societies is right in our scuba-faces. 
 

Domino, were you suggesting that the continents were closer?


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Domino
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 15:33
Vanuatu,

The big mistake in Plato’s story is an assumptions that Atlantis sank into the ocean. I’m suggesting that the world has not changed very much in the last 11,000 to 12,000 years. That is why we can see that North America is the same as Plato described for the continent of Atlantis. Also, according to Plato, the sea level during the time of Atlantis was 100 feet below what it is today. He tells us this every time he mentioned the depth of the canals. They were 100 feet deep. This means that if you zoom in and search shorelines of Florida, you will see subdivisions in the process of being submerged as well as some already submerged. Most of the subdivisions have new homes built on them. Some of the Florida shoreline is underwater because of the rising sea level.


Take a look at the following underwater subdivisions in Florida. See all the old building foundations using the links below. People were  actually living on those lots during the time of Atlantis. 


https://goo.gl/maps/ranfS4AR9HNqDqQd6 - https://goo.gl/maps/ranfS4AR9HNqDqQd6

https://goo.gl/maps/TYagMLYTUVoEoonQ6 - https://goo.gl/maps/TYagMLYTUVoEooNQ6

https://goo.gl/maps/UpVZLXSQgXDC3hxA8 - https://goo.gl/maps/UpVZLXSQgXDC3hxA8


All of those subdivisions are manmade landscape.



Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2019 at 14:32
The only place we learn of the story of Atlantis, is Plato's telling, in the Timaeus and the Critias.  Therefore, Domino, I think you should be rather leary of dismissing parts of Plato's story.  The fantasy/science fiction author Sprague DeCamp wrote a book called Lost Continents in which he
dealt with Atlantis, Mu, and Lemuria.  Regarding Atlantis, he said that if you follow the descriptions,
you will find nothing there, and if you don't follow the descriptions, then you are not talking about Atlantis.  One thing DeCamp does is he lists all the mentions of Atlantis from Plato into the Middle Ages, they all, however, are derived from Plato.  There is no independent confirmation in literature, or in archaeology.  Now you might say, that they will someday find confirmation.  Yes, but that is not today.  I am sorry, but I am skeptical like Caldrail.  I wonder how the Athenians (or Atlantians) could have gotten back and forth across the Atlantic.  It is one thing to putter around the Mediterranean, it is another to outfit ships for the full male population of Athens and go across the Ocean to wage war.


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2019 at 22:04
Quote I’m suggesting that the world has not changed very much in the last 11,000 to 12,000 years.
The world has changed considerably since then. I live in a town surrounded by typical English countryside. 12,000 years ago there was ice up to a mile thick burying the area. Just south of my home was arctic tundra and rocky wilderlands barely inhabited. The North Sea did not exist - it was dry land, now called Doggerland by researchers.
 
The ice retreated quickly as the global warming of that age was incredibly sudden. Forests soon emerged, later cleared by the increasing interference by human populations. I would point out that the inundation of Doggerland was a more gradual process and the inhabitants were mostly paleolithic migrant tribes rather than sophisticated Atlanteans.


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Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2019 at 00:19
Then oh, oooh, Domino,
What is the destruction story about? First into  three islands then submerged? 


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Domino
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2019 at 09:05
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

There is no independent confirmation in literature, or in archaeology.  Now you might say, that they will someday find confirmation.  Yes, but that is not today.  I am sorry, but I am skeptical like Caldrail.

Franciscosan,


I can show you the physical terrain features that Plato described and present that as evidence in a logical sequence. However, I cannot argue with you about it because you are denying the evidence. When I show you the small Island of Atlantis and match it to Plato’s description, I think that is not only a conformation in literature, but is also a conformation in geography. What world it take to convince you that Plato’s description of the Plain of Atlantis matches the Florida Plain?




Posted By: Domino
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2019 at 09:13
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Then oh, oooh, Domino,
What is the destruction story about? First into  three islands then submerged? 

Vanuatu: 

Are you asking about the destruction of Atlantis according to Plato’s description?



Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2019 at 11:51
So, Plato made a mistake saying that the island sunk into the ocean??  Did he also make a mistake saying that the canals were curved instead of straight?  If your description is different that Plato's Atlantis, isn't this evidence that what you found is _not_ Plato's Atlantis.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2019 at 13:38
Originally posted by Domino Domino wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Then oh, oooh, Domino,
What is the destruction story about? First into  three islands then submerged? 

Vanuatu: 

Are you asking about the destruction of Atlantis according to Plato’s description?

Yes.
Crete Delos and Thera aka Santorini have been called the new Atlantis. It was the remnant of a great trading partner, Minoans perhaps.

The Pyramids, gilding and ability to predict astrological events such as eclipses would indicate a long written history of records known to the Mayans and Aztecs. I have always found that curious.



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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2019 at 21:04

A small island? Atlantis was described as 'Bigger than Libya'. That's very substantial

Quote The Pyramids, gilding and ability to predict astrological events such as eclipses would indicate a long written history of records known to the Mayans and Aztecs. I have always found that curious.

There's always been comparisons of old and new world cultural expressions, that was why Thor Heyedahl went across the Atlantic in a reed boat, to prove the possibility. But pyramid building (and the native Americans of the mid northern continent came around to that sort of monumentalist architecture independently too albeit very briefly) has more to do with human psychology than any supposed common knowledge or culture. It is worth pointing out that old and new world socieities had little in common. Also, since the heavens are available on both sides of the Atlantic to ogle at, observation and record keeping by more sophisticated civilisations should be expected.

 

 



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http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2019 at 01:57
Yea, a collective unconscious the Operating System. The Legacy memory. 
The idea of The Warning in form of flooding or any water destruction may be reasonably linked to man's misbehavior. There is always an element of greed before the disaster. Jordan Petersen said the version we read today is condensed so every detail has meaning. 


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Domino
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2019 at 05:31
 Vanuatu, about 12,000 years ago, a massive comet broke up in outer space and hit the earth as 500,000 separate fragments, which bombarded North America and other areas for two days. The great impacts triggered earthquakes, floods, and forest fires throughout America and Mexico. 

Read about it here: 

https://www.scientificpsychic.com/etc/carolina-bays/origin-of-carolina-bays.html - That is when Atlantis was destroyed according to Plato.



Posted By: Domino
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2019 at 11:21
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

So, Plato made a mistake saying that the island sunk into the ocean??  Did he also make a mistake saying that the canals were curved instead of straight?  If your description is different that Plato's Atlantis, isn't this evidence that what you found is _not_ Plato's Atlantis.

Franciscosan, 

As I said earlier in this discussion, people make mistakes in translation and interpretation. That is what happened in Plato’s description of the small island of Atlantis. People made mistakes in both reading and interpretation. Yes, Plato did say that there were three circular moats around the first castle, but he also said that they bridged over those waterways and made a road. Then, they cut three canal through the wise to create the island. This triangular Island of Atlantis had a diameter of .5 miles. Also, you have to realize that Plato did not have a map to reverence.  The castle was on a hill that Plato translated as being a mountain that was not very high. Later, he called it a hill. The hill is still there. I believe that if you read Plato’s story again, you will find that the canals were straight.

Plato describing the moats:

“and breaking the ground, enclosed the hill in which she dwelt all round, making alternate zones of sea and land larger and smaller, encircling one another; there were two of land and three of water,”

Plato describing construction in the area:

“First of all, they bridged over the zones of sea which surrounded the ancient metropolis, making a road to and from the royal palace.”

Plato later in the story:

“And beginning from the sea, they bored a canal of three hundred feet in width and one hundred feet in depth and fifty stadia in length, which they carried through to the outermost zone, making a passage from the sea up to this, which became a harbor, and leaving an opening sufficient to enable the largest vessels to find ingress.”




Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2019 at 14:39
Are you saying that ships of c. 10,000 ya could travel freely back and forth across the Atlantic, enough for Atlantians to subjugate the people of the Mediterranean?  Enough for the Athenian armada to travel across to destroy Atlantis?

Yes, people do make mistakes in translation and interpretation.  I hope you have studied Greek in order to try to mitigate the mistakes you may make in translation and interpretation.  I hope that you have read the Timaeus and tried to figure out the context in which such tale(s) are presented.

I don't get what this "wise" is.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2019 at 01:16
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

A small island? Atlantis was described as 'Bigger than Libya'. That's very substantial

Quote The Pyramids, gilding and ability to predict astrological events such as eclipses would indicate a long written history of records known to the Mayans and Aztecs. I have always found that curious.

There's always been comparisons of old and new world cultural expressions, that was why Thor Heyedahl went across the Atlantic in a reed boat, to prove the possibility.  

Agree, so the idea of weather/ geological changes like a "La Nina" or earth quake/tsunami- could have created limited opportunity for someone setting sail near the Azores to wander close to South America. 
Were it not for Trade Winds Thor would have been up doldrums's creek without a hammer.


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Domino
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2019 at 06:53
Franciscosan, 

Benjamin Jowett used the term, wise, in his translation to describe the Plateau like land formation that held the royal palace. When they dug the canals, they divided the wise into two islands and one other land zone. This resulted in the triangular island being surrounded by two zones of land and three zones of water. This caused confusion in Plato’s story because it sounds the same as a castle surrounded by three  moats.

Plato:

“The palaces in the interior of the citadel were constructed on this wise: In the centre was a holy temple dedicated to Cleito and Poseidon, which remained inaccessible, and was surrounded by an enclosure of gold;”

Check out the divided wise using the map Image:  https://goo.gl/maps/ixjnFPA9VthNmEUi6 - https://goo.gl/maps/ixjnFPA9VthNmEUi6


Since the story has been translated by different translators, you will find that different terms are used in different ways.



Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2019 at 23:02
Well it seems to me that modern scanning methods could easily find Plato's Atlantean canals without difficulty. Funnily enough, nothing of the sort has been found, Florida or elsewhere.

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Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2019 at 23:07
Quote about 12,000 years ago, a massive comet broke up in outer space and hit the earth as 500,000 separate fragments, which bombarded North America and other areas for two days. The great impacts triggered earthquakes, floods, and forest fires throughout America and Mexico. 

Read about it here: 

https://www.scientificpsychic.com/etc/carolina-bays/origin-of-carolina-bays.html -

That is when Atlantis was destroyed according to Plato.

I don't believe Plato established a date for his story. Nor does the website establish definitive detail about a date for an asteroid/comet bombardment, especially sine the site does mention that erosion factors push the date back to 140,000 years.
 
The Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis was soundly rejected by the scientific community (Pinter, et al. 2011)
From https://www.scientificpsychic.com/etc/carolina-bays/origin-of-carolina-bays.html - https://www.scientificpsychic.com/etc/carolina-bays/origin-of-carolina-bays.html


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Posted By: Domino
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2019 at 02:23
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Are you saying that ships of c. 10,000 ya could travel freely back and forth across the Atlantic, enough for Atlantians to subjugate the people of the Mediterranean?  Enough for the Athenian armada to travel across to destroy Atlantis?

Franciscosan,

Yes, they could cross the Atlantic. According to Plato, the country of Atlantis alone had 1,200 ships. The other nine countries had their own military forces. I believe the ships were kept in a harbor found on Davis Island. Follow the link to see the Atlantis harbour.

https://goo.gl/maps/8bUTN6oczb7vmHtGA - https://goo.gl/maps/8bUTN6oczb7vmHtGA


Also, Plato tells us how community leaders in Atlantis supplied men for the military service.


Plato:

“The leader was required to furnish for the war the sixth portion of war chariots, so as to make up a total of ten thousand chariots. Also two horses and riders for them, a pair of chariot-horses without a seat accompanied by a horseman who could fight on foot carrying a small shield. Also a charioteer, who stood behind the man-at-arms to guide the two horses; and, he was bound to furnish two heavily armed soldiers, two slingers, three stone-shooters and three javelin-men, who were light-armed, and four sailors to make up the complement of twelve hundred ships.

Such was the military order of the royal city—the order of the other nine governments varied, and it would be wearisome to recount their several differences.”

The military force of Atlantis that attempted to rule the world consisted of the combined forces of the ten counties that made up to Kingdom of Atlantis.



Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2019 at 04:49
I am assuming that the Atlantians and Athenians had something like trireme ships for war, and other ships for trade.  I believe Plato says "triremes" explicitly, (which were not invented until about the seventh century BC, as he says hoplites (instead of "heavily armed soldiers"), maybe Plato is being a little anachronistic.  But, in any case, they are triremes or something _more_ simple.  Is that a reasonable assumption?

Watch the 2 or 3 minute video on youtube on the trireme Olympias (in the modern Greek Navy).  Do you believe that one of those (or 1200 of those) could make it across the Atlantic Ocean?  Or, rather, do you believe that a fleet of those could make it across the Atlantic Ocean?  Or maybe you believe that the Atlantians had super advanced vessels, do you believe that the Athenians also had super advanced, "mystical" vessels?  

I don't necessarily expect an answer, I just would like you to ask yourself those things.

The translation of the _Timaeus_and _Critias_ that I use is the Desmond Lee translation from Penguin Classics, in it he has a _circular_ map of the city according to the text.  That is why I assume the city and the citadel are on a circular plan.  Jowett was a Victorian, and his translation is a Victorian translation, he wasn't wrong for his time but is a little dated and stilted.  The main virtue of the Jowett translations these days, is that the copyright has lapsed, and so anyone can use them or publish them.  Our understanding of Greek has changed (developed 'further') and English usage has drifted, so that usages (wise) that were once familiar, sound odd these days.  But, from what I understand Jowett is good, overall, it is just that there other translations that are (maybe only incrementally) better.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2019 at 23:55
francisosan, according to the translation that you have are Timaeus and Critias telling Socrates about an event that actually took place? From the POV of the storyteller is it meant to be believed? "not a fiction, but a true story" 

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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 14:36
Franciscosan wrote, in part
Quote I am assuming that the Atlantians and Athenians had something like trireme ships for war, and other ships for trade.  I believe Plato says "triremes" explicitly, (which were not invented until about the seventh century BC, as he says hoplites (instead of "heavily armed soldiers"), maybe Plato is being a little anachronistic.  But, in any case, they are triremes or something _more_ simple.  Is that a reasonable assumption?

Plato was born in about 424BC, the Trireme was built about 700BC which in terms of time is about 275 years before Plato was born, so he would have had the ability to know about them.

A popular idea is that Atlantis was written as an allegory, a representation of the threats facing ancient Greece.

If that is correct, Atlantis never actually existed.

It's occurred to me that as Timaeus and Critias were born about 60 odd years before Plato, it could have been that Plato took the story of Atlantis, and used Timaeus and Critias as proof that Atlantis existed. 

Quote https://www.thoughtco.com/platos-atlantis-from-the-timaeus-119667 -
 

I could accept the allegory theory.


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“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2019 at 06:30
Hi Domino, I don't know whether you have seen this, it's new to Nat Geo. Around 541 AD there's a massive eruption of Ilopango on the coast of Guatemala. The dates that coincide with Plato don't agree with the dating of this eruption but dates are sketchy things. Those who know admit that Plato's writings could be and likely are a composite work that was compiled over centuries.* Plato is descended from gods, knows Pythagoreans too? 
He seems as impossible as Jesus Christ. 
Isn't it possible that a meteor shower creating the geological evidence of bombardment could have been a volcanic eruption further south? And not during Plato's presumed lifetime? Between 12,000 and 140,000 years of sea dispersing the evidence of bombardment isn't a long time geologically but in 404 BC the Athenians were at war with Sparta, right? 


In 2001, Dull tried to estimate Ilopango’s effects on the local Maya, but he didn’t make further headway until 2008, when two major studies grabbed Dull’s attention. In one, geologists published new evidence that the historical “dust veil” of 536  https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2007GL032450 - was caused by a volcano . In the other, researchers announced that the Tierra Blanca Joven  https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2007GC001791 - extended into marine sediments off the coast of El Salvador . The Tierra Blanca Joven eruption was even bigger than Dull and others thought.

Because the trees were so well preserved, Dull and his team could figure out how old they were when the Ilopango eruption killed them. These new data—a hundred new radiocarbon dates—point to the trees dying in the first half of the 6th century, most likely in the 530s to 540s.

Dull’s team also revised their estimate of Ilopango’s size, taking into account the thickness and spread of Tierra Blanca Joven deposits. They say that Ilopango may have even dwarfed  https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2004GL020925 - the 1815 Tambora eruption , a huge volcanic event that ushered in “a year without a summer” because of the global cooling it caused. Ilopango likely launched up to a million tons of sulfur miles into the sky, high enough for stratospheric winds to spread the aerosols worldwide and trigger global cooling.

http://https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2019/08/colossal-volcano-behind-mystery-global-cooling-found/?cmpid=org=ngp::mc=crm-email::src=ngp::cmp=editorial::add=Science_20190828&rid=F2BB0F2A8054EA24A2EF725FAD8B79C3 - https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2019/08/colossal-volcano-behind-mystery-global-cooling-found/?cmpid=org=ngp::mc=crm-email::src=ngp::cmp=editorial::add=Science_20190828&rid=F2BB0F2A8054EA24A2EF725FAD8B79C3

* Wasn't Plato witness to the destruction of Athens during the Peloponnesion War? Hadn't Athens just been defeated by the Spartans for good? 
Domino, your efforts are appreciated it's a fascinating idea, thank you for contributing. I hope you keep it going I'd love to know the deal with Atlantis.


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2019 at 09:53
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

 
I don't believe Plato established a date for his story. 

9,000 years before his lifetime.
Plato said Atlantis existed about 9,000 years before his own time, and that its story had been passed down by poets, priests, and others. But Plato's writings about Atlantis are the only known records of its existence.
http://https://www.nationalgeographic.com/archaeology-and-history/archaeology/atlantis/ - https://www.nationalgeographic.com/archaeology-and-history/archaeology/atlantis/


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Allegro
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2019 at 15:20
If Atlantis is a real location then it must be either in Greece or close. Athenians and Atlantians did fight, so how can America claim the Atlantis location. It's a story. Is it based on real events, we don't know. Too much pseudo science.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2019 at 20:34
Just for a moment, accept what Plato wrote as fact. That being the case, Atlantis was located near to the Pillars of Heracles, the Straits of Gibralta.

Personally, I don't know that Atlantis ever existed.


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“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2019 at 04:24
It has ruled over the imagination, ever since it sunk beneath the waves.


Posted By: truthsetsfree
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2019 at 18:53
Originally posted by Allegro Allegro wrote:

If Atlantis is a real location then it must be either in Greece or close. Athenians and Atlantians did fight, so how can America claim the Atlantis location. It's a story. Is it based on real events, we don't know. Too much pseudo science.


Atlantis' Distance (was far not close) according to the source text(s) and ancient and modern views of the Account:

- Atlantis was "at a distant point in the Atlantic" (Plato).

- Atlantis was beyond/by the pillars of Hercules. "Atlantis was inside the Pillars, Athens was outside the Pillars". protu "before" the pillars. The pillars of Hercules were the furtherest point of the world, and were at  least as far as Gibraltar where they have usually been thought to be. Hercules visited the Atlas mountains and the Hesperides in the far west. (Peruvian was one of the furtherest ancient high cultures of the world.)

- Atlanteans were "invaders" (Tim 25d.)
(In the bible the Kittim were also "westerners" and "invaders". Compare modern alien space invaders.)

- "Atlanteans were unmixed with other mortal stock" (Crit 121).

- Atlantis was "at the ends of the earth", "remotest" (Dio Sic 3:56).

- "a remote land in the middle of the ocean" (Timagenes).

- 50 stades (500 miles) (Plutarch)

- Diodorus Siculus says Atlantis was "out in deep off Libya a number of days sail to west" / "many days sailing across the Atlantic".

- "5 days sail west of Britain". (Compare modern Atlantic crossing records.)

- "not far to the west of Europe ... memory of a larger island" (Proclus).

- Some scholars say that the Atlantis Account implies that Atlantis was in the outer "real ocean" ("Atlantic" or "world ocean") not in the inner sea indentation ("Mediterranean") (Plato 'Timaeus', Dio Sic, Aelian, Timagenes, Flem-Ath, Spanuth, compare geopolitics)?

- They invaded "upto Tyrrhenia (Italy) & Libya (nw Africa)" or "from next Libya"; "the whole of the land which is within the straits",
"all those who dwelt/lived outside/inside the pillars";
("against the whole of Europe & Asia".)

- "Thoth was born in a  distant country to the west which was  across a body of water."

(- Tarshish's name is associated with "a sea 2000 parasangs wide".)

- "Atlanteans were oustanding sailors (had 1200 ships)" (Spanuth's impression of Critias 117, 119).



Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2019 at 12:48
There's no lack of earthquakes or natural disasters ever but the dating of Tiahuanaco is bit of a problem. 

When do we say Plato's account was written?

Other cultures have this development in literature, the flood stories are in the earliest texts. Floods are terrifying, a captivating story telling device because it is the truth of life on earth.


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 11:02
Solon, an ancestor of Critias, reportedly receives the story from the Egyptians.  I would guess, around 585 BC.  The story was told to Critias' namesake, and then to Critias.  As far as the transmission of the story, it is _just_ barely feasible.  There are two possible dates you may be asking about, when the dramatic date is, and when was it written.  I think it was written after the sinking of Helice.  Which sank in a earthquake and tsunami, and was a navigational hazard after that.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2019 at 15:19
Helice the capital of the Ionians, along with mountains and a large swath of the Corinthian coast just slid into the sea 373 BC. No earthquake or fire according to one account, the supports of the the land shelf just collapsed. This is during the Peloponnese Wars when Sparta was dominating before the Doric invasion. 
In 1861 an 8 mile crack along a mountain in Helice slipped into the water. Taking the plain and trees into the sea. Rocks, trees and solid ground are visible just above the water. The accounts of Pausanius and observers in 1861 are similar in the description of coast land dropping into the sea. However the accounts after Eratosthenes of Helice starting with Pausanius, do include fire & brimstone/earthquakes.

Eratosthenes has an early account of local people at Helice who saw the markets sink and later the landmass prevented access to the sea. Fisherman couldn't take their boats out over the jagged fold of land. 

Also, fair enough that dates can be mistranslated, dropping a zero off the 9,000 before Plato lived is agreed.
Atlantis/Helice paraphrased pp242

Imagining Atlantis

By Richard Ellis


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2019 at 02:32
Pausanias
Eratosthenes (Er-a-tos-the-nes)

Helice (or Helike) (He-li-ke) is an Achaean polis. Sybaris in Magna Graecia was founded from there.  The ocean being impassable in the Atlantis account, sounds like the impassability of the Helicean shores.  Although the gates of Heracles were in another way impassable, because it was Carthaginian waters and the Carthaginians would keep the Greeks out.

Plato died in 348.  The Timaeus and the Critias fragment are the last thing he wrote, besides the Laws.
so the guesstimation is that he wrote it c. 358.  


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2019 at 22:27
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Just for a moment, accept what Plato wrote as fact. That being the case, Atlantis was located near to the Pillars of Heracles, the Straits of Gibralta.

Personally, I don't know that Atlantis ever existed.
Hi, 
Isn't saying "Pillars of Heracles" equivalent to saying the known world ?  


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2019 at 22:42
"- Atlantis was beyond/by the pillars of Hercules. "Atlantis was inside the Pillars, Athens was outside the Pillars". protu "before" the pillars. The pillars of Hercules were the furtherest point of the world, and were at  least as far as Gibraltar where they have usually been thought to be. Hercules visited the Atlas mountains and the Hesperides in the far west. (Peruvian was one of the furtherest ancient high cultures of the world.)"

If it is as you say then Atlantis would be oriented towards north America. The latitude at the Yucatan/Florida vs Peru is quite a drop South. 

Even if Peruvians were high enough to see distant lands, the Athenians were not and they would be looking at the bending of the horizon even with a potential visual telescopic enhancement. 

 "a remote land in the middle of the ocean" (Timagenes).

Timagenes can only talk about the middle of the ocean as far as he understands it. If Atlantis is the middle of the ocean that Timagenes knows, the land inside pillars, then he means the Atlantic. If he claims to see it from Greece then he must be at close latitude,?  


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: truthsetsfree
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2019 at 09:41
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

"- Atlantis was beyond/by the pillars of Hercules. "Atlantis was inside the Pillars, Athens was outside the Pillars". protu "before" the pillars. The pillars of Hercules were the furtherest point of the world, and were at  least as far as Gibraltar where they have usually been thought to be. Hercules visited the Atlas mountains and the Hesperides in the far west. (Peruvian was one of the furtherest ancient high cultures of the world.)"

If it is as you say then Atlantis would be oriented towards north America. The latitude at the Yucatan/Florida vs Peru is quite a drop South. 

Even if Peruvians were high enough to see distant lands, the Athenians were not and they would be looking at the bending of the horizon even with a potential visual telescopic enhancement. 


It depends where the pillars of Hercules were. My theory based on various evidences is that the pillars were at the most distant point of the world and were in Peru/Andes.
(Peru is more distant (west & south) than Mexico, though North America is centred further west than South America.)

The Atlantis Account is from Sais/Egypt not from Athens/Greece.

South America has more support than North America. For example the Atlas mountains are in Africa (beside South America) not in Europe (beside North America). (The Atlas also roughly mirror the Andes.) Also, Atlantis/Atlas is implied to be south-west of Gades in Spain in Europe.
According to one translator's version of the Atlantis Account it says the Atlanteans invaded "from next Libya (Africa)".
North America was mostly covered by ice.
South America is centred more east that North America, and Africa sticks out further west than Europe does.

Latitude mayhave changed since pole shifts are known to have happened.


Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:


 "a remote land in the middle of the ocean" (Timagenes).

Timagenes can only talk about the middle of the ocean as far as he understands it. If Atlantis is the middle of the ocean that Timagenes knows, the land inside pillars, then he means the Atlantic. If he claims to see it from Greece then he must be at close latitude,?  


The Mediterranean is not an "(middle of the) ocean".
"Remote" is not close to Greece.
Timagenes is not the first hand source so he is less reliable. I only quoted him and others as showing their rough general view/impression/understanding/interpretation of Plato's words meanings (re Atlantis' distance being far not near).

The Atlantic/Ocean would both sides of Atlantis/America(s).
The view was from either Egypt or Atlantis rather than from Greece.



Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2019 at 12:53
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Just for a moment, accept what Plato wrote as fact. That being the case, Atlantis was located near to the Pillars of Heracles, the Straits of Gibralta.

Personally, I don't know that Atlantis ever existed.
Hi, 
Isn't saying "Pillars of Heracles" equivalent to saying the known world ?  

Yes, at least the eastern end of known Europe.

But, all we have is Plato's writings,  no further proof although quite a few have quoted him.


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“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: truthsetsfree
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2019 at 07:41


If Atlantis of the Atlantis Account is true then it is found in other sources and in the true site.
Some think that the Medinet Habu inscription about the Sea Peoples matches the Atlanis Account's ivasion of the Atlanteans.
One has to objectively  look to see it there is a quality match in real history without bending the details of the account.
Tiahauanaco/Tiwanaku does has strong matches with  the capital city of Atlantis.  I can supply this further proof ifyou wish (though I already did in another forum).
The great city of Asshur in Genesis 10 may match both Tiahauanaco and Atlantis city.
The Atlantiss Account is ont Plato's. It came to Plato from Sonchis and Solon.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 18 Sep 2019 at 12:27
But therein also provides a clue that the story was a "hand me down" which could have been exagerated over time. This is not uncommon practice.

Could it be that a story was made up, repeated and added to until the final Plato version was produced?

Modern scientists have explored the sea floor in the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean near Gibraltar but nothing suggestive of Atlantis has been found, although, I suppose, over the millenia all traces could have been covered by silt.

I would totally reject claims that Atlantis may have been somewhere to the west, closer to the USA.


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“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 13:23
And yet, we are in the time of Solon, and even in the time of Plato, at an early stage of literacy, which means that people often still had good memories for important things.  But, still I believe that grandfather Critias had to be quite old and the younger Critias quite young when the story was passed from one to the other, the younger being perhaps 8 or 9.

Ocean geology is different than Continental (and I assume, Island) geology.  The oceans are heavy Basaltic rock, whereas the continents are lighter granitic rock sliding on top of the basaltic rock.
There are no great candidates for a sunken Atlantic, let alone Mu or Lemuria.
Underwater sonar maps have pretty much shown that.

Sonchis is not mentioned in Plato, and in my opinion, comes from outside sources, being an Egyptian priest contemporary with Solon (therefore "must" be the priest talking to Solon.)

I consider most if not all accounts derivative of Plato, as the Carthaginians gave way to the Romans, it was necessary to push the location of Atlantis further out, for the 'just' beyond the pillars of Hercules didn't cut it any more.

Plato wrote predominantly in dialogues, one can get tripped up in many places in his dialogues if one assumes that they are historically accurate.  For example, some believe that Timaeus of Lokri is a historical (Pythagorean), others deny it, still others think it is unimportant.  What Plato is doing in the Timaeus with the Atlantis story is less than obvious.  It is important, and how it is important is not clear.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 15:03
"Gather 'round the fire children and I'll tell you a story of a wonderous land which disappeared without trace........"

I await the outcome of scientific searches before I'll accept some of the stories from our ancient past.

Of course, there were stories told just for entertainment. Could this be another one?


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“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 15:06
Originally posted by truthsetsfree truthsetsfree wrote:

It depends where the pillars of Hercules were. My theory based on various evidences is that the pillars were at the most distant point of the world and were in Peru/Andes.
(Peru is more distant (west & south) than Mexico, though North America is centred further west than South America.)

The Atlantis Account is from Sais/Egypt not from Athens/Greece.

South America has more support than North America. For example the Atlas mountains are in Africa (beside South America) not in Europe (beside North America). (The Atlas also roughly mirror the Andes.) Also, Atlantis/Atlas is implied to be south-west of Gades in Spain in Europe.
According to one translator's version of the Atlantis Account it says the Atlanteans invaded "from next Libya (Africa)".
North America was mostly covered by ice.
South America is centred more east that North America, and Africa sticks out further west than Europe does.

Latitude may have changed since pole shifts are known to have happened.
Yes but if North America is covered in ice then no one has crossed Beringia land bridge and no one theoretically is living in South America. What is the timeline? 


Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:


 "a remote land in the middle of the ocean" (Timagenes).

Timagenes can only talk about the middle of the ocean as far as he understands it. If Atlantis is the middle of the ocean that Timagenes knows, the land inside pillars, then he means the Atlantic. If he claims to see it from Greece then he must be at close latitude,?  


The Mediterranean is not an "(middle of the) ocean".
"Remote" is not close to Greece.
Timagenes is not the first hand source so he is less reliable. I only quoted him and others as showing their rough general view/impression/understanding/interpretation of Plato's words meanings (re Atlantis' distance being far not near).

The Atlantic/Ocean would both sides of Atlantis/America(s).
The view was from either Egypt or Atlantis rather than from Greece.

[/QUOTE]
Critias has motivation to construct a narrative. Critias has been compared to Robespierre for the "iniquitous deeds" (Plato) of the Thirty Tyrants after Athens was conquered. 
wiki-The Thirty Tyrants-
If the poles and plates were moving in such a way that it brought Africa and South America back into close vicinity then why is the enormous event barely mentioned?

Encyclopedia.com Continental Drift-
Another important piece of evidence was discovered in the early twentieth century. When molten lava freezes, it preserves traces of  https://www.encyclopedia.com/earth-and-environment/geology-and-oceanography/geology-and-oceanography/earth - Earth 's magnetic field. Basalt, which freezes deep underground, also records Earth's magnetic field at the time the basalt cooled. Measurements of the direction of Earth's magnetic field from many different rocks of different ages on different continents indicate either that Earth's magnetic poles have moved all over the planet or that the continents themselves have moved.
 


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 15:31
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:


Plato wrote predominantly in dialogues, one can get tripped up in many places in his dialogues if one assumes that they are historically accurate.  For example, some believe that Timaeus of Lokri is a historical (Pythagorean), others deny it, still others think it is unimportant.  What Plato is doing in the Timaeus with the Atlantis story is less than obvious.  It is important, and how it is important is not clear.
Was Plato possibly in the position of Josephus a kind of captive historian? Is Plato describing penalty for impiety? 

Could the Atlantis example have been allegorical for the defeat of Athens, without naming them?



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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2019 at 02:18
Plato was an Athenian aristocrat, during a time that Athens leaned democratically, sometimes bordering on mob rule.  Dialogues are a means of writing that are good for getting a message past critics.  Is the message of the character of Socrates the same as Plato's message?  How can you tell?  What about the Laws, in which Socrates does not appear, except maybe as "the Athenian Stranger."  The Atlantis story is not told by the character of Socrates, so even if the message of the character of Socrates is the same as Plato's message, the story of Atlantis is from someone else.  Is that too part of Plato's message???  Does it even have to be either/or?

As far as allegorical is concerned:
1) Yes, it could be, 2) no, it is not obvious that it is. 3) if it was obvious, then Plato's critics probably could use it to get at him.  4) But, they can't, can they?  Because, obviously the Athenians are the good guys of the story.  Right? 

To me, the big question is what does the Atlantis story have to do with the rest of it, a cosmology told by Timaeus?  Some scholars consider the Atlantis story a little sugar to sweeten the cosmological medicine which is a lot less digestible.  It makes as much (or as little) sense as anything else.  Still, not very satisfying.


Posted By: truthsetsfree
Date Posted: 22 Sep 2019 at 12:47

The only way to prove the Atlantis Account is true or fiction is to first objectively and throughly look to see if there is any strong match in history, instead of just assuming/asserting that it is a fiction of Plato's or just a handed down story.

The people talking in the Account actually say in one place that it is true history not made up (Timaeus 20e, 21b, 26f).

I could post some evidences but i want to know i am ot wasting my time first. Otherwise see my post in rival forum a year ago http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=37820 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=37820 . What one or more matches evidences would convince people?




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