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Education and Democracy

Printed From: WorldHistoria Forum
Category: GENERAL HISTORY
Forum Name: General Econ & Social
Forum Description: General discussions on Economic and Social History not covered in the subforums
URL: http://www.worldhistoria.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=129829
Printed Date: 22 Oct 2019 at 21:22
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Topic: Education and Democracy
Posted By: Athena
Subject: Education and Democracy
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2019 at 02:38
Without education to defend our democracy, the Constitution of the US is not defended.  We ended education for democracy with the 1958 National Defense Education Act and the social, economic and political ramifications of this change are huge!  

The US is now what it defended its democracy against.  Instead of our schools producing well rounded and independent thinkers prepared for citizenship and civic and industrial leadership, our young are prepared to be specializing the parts to serve the Military Industrial Complex and instead of independent thinking, they are prepared are for "group think".   That is a serious shift in power and authority.  Our politics are now reactionary and the branches of government have degenerated into power conflicts that threaten to destroy our Republic as the Republic of Germany was destroyed.   

In his 1943 book "Is Germany Incurable?" Richard M. Brickner, M.D. describes paranoia as an excessive need to be superior and in control.  The US adopted the German model of bureaucracy and the German model of education and is now just as paranoid as Germany became.  

Hitler's term for this social organization was New World Order.  Eisenhower's term for this is Military Industrial Complex.  Eisenhower explained why this national change is necessary and he warned of its dangers.  Also the National Defense Education Act he asked congress to pass, had a 4 year limit, but once it was in place we never returned to the education for citizenship we had.  Our failure to be conscious of the bureaucratic and education changes makes us a culture in crisis.    



Replies:
Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2019 at 03:12
I think Brickner's idea that Germany suffered from more than mild insanity during the years of the Nazi Party is logical. That is, it was the channeling of group hysteria, fear and desperation to control "others" describes at least 3 generations of Germans, WW1 adults, their children and grandchildren.  

Would you elaborate on the details of changes made to schools based on Germany's model?
I don't have the book is not available on scribd but I looked at some abstracts online. Thanks


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2019 at 10:18
Was Germany incurable?  Was it cured or does it remain uncured?  Insanity is a psychological state of an individual, I am not sure how that works when talking about populations.  People can, as far as I understand it, be paranoid as a group, but I would argue that Germany _was_ technologically and culturally superior prior to the outbreak of WWII, but they were not in control, due to the penalties of the Versailles conference.  There were reasons for their paranoia, and resentment.  It is not just paranoia that is playing a role, but more importantly, resentment.  At least I would argue, more important at the beginning.

But, was Germany incurable? and if it was incurable then what about conditions in Germany now?  


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2019 at 11:12
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

I think Brickner's idea that Germany suffered from more than mild insanity during the years of the Nazi Party is logical. That is, it was the channeling of group hysteria, fear and desperation to control "others" describes at least 3 generations of Germans, WW1 adults, their children and grandchildren.  

Would you elaborate on the details of changes made to schools based on Germany's model?
I don't have the book is not available on scribd but I looked at some abstracts online. Thanks

Clap  An intelligent reply!  I think I am going into a state of shock.  This is different from the insanity I have been dealing with.  I hope I don't wake up and find this is just a dream.  

This post would be too long if I gave you all the information at once.  I will begin with William James 1899 book "TALKS TO TEACHERS ON PSYCHOLOGY: AND TO STUDENTS ON SOME OF LIFE'S IDEALS".

"If we reflect upon the various ideals of education that are prevalent in the different countries, we see that what they all aim at is to organize capacities for conduct.  This is most immediately obvious in Germany, where the explicitly avowed aim of the higher education is to turn the student into an instrument for advancing scientific discovery.  The German universities are proud of the number of young specialists whom they turn out every year,- not necessarily men of any original force of intellect, but men so trained to research that when their professor gives them an historical or philological thesis to prepare, or a bit of laboratory work to do, with a general indication as to the best method, they can go off by themselves and use apparatus and consult sources in such a way as to grind out in the prerequisite number of months some little peppercorn of new truth worthy of being added to the store of extant human information on that subject.  Little else is recognized in Germany as a man's title to show himself an efficient instrument of research."  

Now today a person might ask why William James did not seem to approve of the German focus of education.   We might want to know what England and the US were doing differently and we can get to that.  If you are interested I can quote from a book recording the speeches given at the 1917 National Education Association Conference and what J. A. B. Sinclair, Surgeon, United States Navy, Portland Recruiting Station, Portland, Ore. had to say about why we should imitate German education.  


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2019 at 12:15
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Was Germany incurable?  Was it cured or does it remain uncured?  Insanity is a psychological state of an individual, I am not sure how that works when talking about populations.  People can, as far as I understand it, be paranoid as a group, but I would argue that Germany _was_ technologically and culturally superior prior to the outbreak of WWII, but they were not in control, due to the penalties of the Versailles conference.  There were reasons for their paranoia, and resentment.  It is not just paranoia that is playing a role, but more importantly, resentment.  At least I would argue, more important at the beginning.

But, was Germany incurable? and if it was incurable then what about conditions in Germany now?  

Thumbs Up  Another impressive post.  I am loving this.

I would say Germany is cured.  That is a whole different subject from why it was paranoid and why the US might want to rethink its present opinion of itself as being superior and needing to take control the world.   I do not believe the problem began with defeat in WWI.  I would say the problem began with the Prussian take over Germany following the 30 Years War that devastated Germany.  I get this opinion from Charles Sarolea's book "The Anglo-German problem" warning the world that Germany was mobilizing for war before the start of the first world war.  

I speak of such matters not because I am sure or what I think, but I am not at peace with my thoughts and want feedback and correction if I am wrong.  

I would argue the paranoia resulted from Christianity (this is about obedience to authority verses being the authority) and remember Germany was the seat of the Holy Roman Empire and the Reformation.   There is a lot of paradox in this.  

Added to that, I believe applying the Prussian bureaucratic order to citizens is both a necessary evil and seriously problematic when there is no awareness of this reality and a possible different one.  It is this lack of awareness that results in imbalances.   German citizens today, have much more control than they had under the influence of Prussia. 

Finally, education for the Prussian ideal of organized capacity of conduct throws everything over the edge.  Then you may have an authoritarian republic, but it is not a democracy as the US was once upon a time a democracy where all children were prepared for civic and industrial leadership.  The US had strong citizen control over governing authority because of its completely different history and its bureaucratic organization was extremely weak!  Problem is, the difference in our history doesn't really matter when our past culture is no longer transmitted, in preference to preparing the young to serve the Military Industrial Complex that is organized by Prussian bureaucracy.  There, that was perfectly clear and easy to follow wasn't it?  Wacko


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2019 at 12:15
Carol wrote
Quote Clap  An intelligent reply!  I think I am going into a state of shock.  This is different from the insanity I have been dealing with.  I hope I don't wake up and find this is just a dream. 

No dream, situation normal for us.

A good post, BTW. Handshake


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“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 05 Jul 2019 at 16:04
From what I understand in the 19th century, Germany had a problem feeding itself.  France and England had their colonies to draw upon, whereas Germany got the runt of the litter.  That led to Germany getting more into science, looking for fertilizers, and developing thermos bottles, which had the "practical" influence in rocketry.  So, yes, the Germans looked to the technician as an answer to their situation.
But the Germans also had a strong tradition in universities and music.  All those little principalities as a matter of pride had their own university and their own symphony.  They still existed when Germany was united.


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2019 at 01:35
Franciscosan, You have no idea how happy you made me.  How did you come across that information?  I am not sure where I came across the early German interest in Science and technology, but as I recollect they have always been unique in that way.  That is why I bought the book about Germany, along with knowing we adopted their model of education.  Truly I would like to know your source of information so I can check it out.  

I believe the Germans to the west had good soil and a different personality than the Prussians to the east.  At least Charles Sarolea said there was a difference.  

Following your lead I did a brief search of the Mongol Conquest to Frederick II and the Holy Roman Empire.  This is an effort to understand the influences that shaped the Prussians and Germans to the west.  Frederick is someone I would like to know better as he was so literate and interested in science and technology and Nietzsche thought well of him. Nietzsche was a strong influence in German history and Nietzsche seems to have replaced our interest in the Greek and Roman Classics.

Mongols of course carried China's technology west, and required a strong opposition.  I have a vague memory of the Germanic people being fierce warriors.  It was said Prussia lived for a love of war.  Would you know anything of this?  

LOL  This is so much better than defending myself against attacks for spreading Military Industrial Conspiracy theory.  It is impossible to have good discussions with ignorant people, and informed people open a world of exciting information.   I am like the robot in Short Circuit.  I want more information, more information.  Hey, can I change my name from Carol to Number 5, the name of the short circuited robot?      


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2019 at 04:21
Hi there Athena, aka Carol Smile
I would like to hear about the differences in the US/UK/German education systems.
Paraphrase if you like, I'm comfortable with your knowledge of the subject. Thanks 


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2019 at 01:00
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Hi there Athena, aka Carol Smile
I would like to hear about the differences in the US/UK/German education systems.
Paraphrase if you like, I'm comfortable with your knowledge of the subject. Thanks 

Well I have information from different sources and I will gladly provide those sources.  Books were written on the history of education and I would like people to know education has many different purposes and the main focus of education changed over time.  

William James is the one who contrasted the education of those three nations in 1899.  Germany was the only nation with education focused on technology.  The UK wanted to avoid education for technology because such an education means a person from the poorest class can rise to the top, and the UK wanted to protect its class system.  At least those in the seats of power wanted to protect the old system. 

You might image the US would embrace education for technology because it does lead to greater equality.  However, that was slow in coming.  The UK education taught the young to be good British citizens.  This is learning a defined character through literature.  The US was doing the same thing.  Other than learning to read, write, speak well, and do math, US education had nothing to do with education for technology until 1917.  Even at a college level education there was more focused on a religiously valued education that we would laugh at today.   

Oh dear, the more I contemplate how to answer your question, the more difficult that answer gets.  I hate dealing with the religious issue but there is no way to avoid it.  There was a fundamental difference between UK and US education.  The UK wanted to protect its classes and religion played a strong roll in this, the notion that God is control and we are born into our positions.  The US ideal came from the enlightenment and sought to manifest equality by lifting everyone up.  The US modeled its education after Athens.  We had education for well round individual growth and prepared everyone for civic and industrial leadership.  A very small portion of the population was Deist. Disapprove  Ah, you might be aware of the conflict between those pagans who gave us democracy and the religious group?   

Liberal education did prepare everyone for science as coming from the enlightenment faith was put in science and technology more so than religion.  Opposition to the liberal education we had, is very suspect.  Ouch, this is a touchy subject and I am not sure how to manage it without offending people.   For bloody sure, we had education for good moral judgment, based on the enlightenment idea of moral judgement.  Education for technology and leaving moral training to the church, as Germany did, is a huge mistake!    


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2019 at 12:10
Frederich the great was encouraged by Voltaire, although they had a falling out, he wrote a treatise criticizing Machiavelli called the Anti-Machiavell (no 'i').  I seem to remember that the Mongols were turned back at Vienna.  I believe that they were not involved with Germany proper.  The Holy Roman Empire was said to be neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire.  I believe there were Prussian knights coming out of the Middle Ages (Teutonic knights??), there is a reason why the USSR kept that area (Prussia) after WWII and it is now a region of Russia separated off from the rest from the Baltic States, Konigsberg became Kalinograd (sp?).

I studied German in High School, so I don't know where I came across the information.  But if you look at Oktoberfest, that was originally a holiday to drink the old beer, so you could store the new beer.  Again, Germany developed the thermos bottle, which lead to the development of liquid rockets (which are just giant thermos bottles), they also worked on trying to develop fertilizers, but instead developed new colors of ink.  (try to do one thing, get another).  Eventually a Jewish German scientist developed nitrogen fixation of the soil, he won a Noble medal, but was also wanted for war crimes (not by Germany) because he developed poison gas for the war effort (WWI).

Maybe the right question is not, why did Germany develop science and technology, but why did Great Britain and France not develop it?  British education was more focused on the Classics, but also the Roman Empire of which they kind of looked upon themselves as the successors.  You had the tradition of the Amateur scholar in Great Britain, in the sciences however, this, in my understanding with Julian? Huxley, known as Darwin's pitbull, changed when the amateur naturalists started being viewed as a nuisance to University professionals, like Huxley.  A good part of that tradition of amateur naturalists included clergy, who supported by the Church of England, had free time on their hands, and may have been appointed to more obscure parts of the country.

Germany is an intellectual powerhouse because of all those little (former) principalities having, as a matter of prestige, their own Universities.  Also a musical powerhouse because all those principalities had orchestras or symphonies.  France was more a matter of the philosophs.  They probably were shut out of the Universities there, but there was an incomplete censorship.  What I mean by that is you could publish controversial material for a first printing, but then censorship would clamp down.  So therefore, first printing could be quite large (and lucrative), after the first printing, stuff could be published in the Netherlands, which was protestant, entrepreneurs, and didn't really care.  

I don't know what France was like in the 1800s, however, Simone Weil said that the French Revolution was a conservative revolution, not a liberal one.  It was at least initially not the intellectuals who took over but the mob, and the Terror.

Whereas, Germany may have emphasized technical education, it seems to me, that Britain and the US were at the forefront of industrialization.  Also, I don't know John Dewey very well, but he wrote on education, and I thought that his purpose of schools was to turn out good workers (good drones?), not necessarily good citizens.  Thomas Jefferson emphasized three years of reading, writing, and aRithmetic.  Enough in his opinion for people to educate themselves.  Of course, there still is liberal education, but it is not so liberal anymore, and is like a prolonged childhood for many.

Oh, there is a book called something like "the tyranny of Greece over Germany."  The Germans felt a cultural affinity to Greece, but not so much the democracy of Athens.  German language has some affinities to ancient Greek, and the Germans made the most of that.  German like Greek has masculine, feminine and neuter nouns.  Unlike French or Spanish or Italian which are romance languages, Germany doesn't have that Latin filter.  Germans liked to believe, that like the Greeks, they had a more Indo-European connection or we might say, Indo-Aryan.  We can see where that ended up.
The Germans emphasized the history of Alexander of Macedon, probably also Sparta, Olympia or Thebes sacred band, not that they ignored Athens.  One German scholar on Alexander the great is Wilken who kind of saw in Alexander a predecessor to the Prussian state.

I have not presented this in the most fluid way, but I hope you'll find some food for thought here, and elsewhere.  If you have specific statements you want me to further comment on, (or try to remember a source), let me know, but again, it is bits and pieces vaguely remembered over 30 years.


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2019 at 03:05
Wow you studied Germany in high school?  Where were you educated?  Any idea who made that decision to teach about Germany?  Would mind giving the dates for you education?  Was it before or after 1958? 

You know of many interesting things.  This got my attention  "tradition of amateur naturalists".  Did I say I am working on a book? The last thing I need is to add more information, but you have resolved a problem that has been troubling me.  How to explain that liberal education was very much about science.  People think it is education for technology that put us on the path to science, but that is not at all true.  People don't understand what education for science has to do with democracy and our liberty and that is tragic.  Their heads are all messed with technology as some kind of god and money being the most important value.  I think our human values are all messed up, and I will welcome any agreements to the contrary.

Anyway back to what you said, you got me to open one of my books on the history of education and I was able to find what you have talked about on page 522 of A TEST-BOOK INT THE HISTORY OF EDUCATION by Paul Monroe, Ph.D.  I quote...

"In a sense, Locke is the founder of the naturalistic movement in education, for in many respects, Rousseau Freely acknowledges indebtedness to him.  Yet, as has been previously noticed, there was fundamental disagreement on the most vital point, in that Locke held that the very purpose of education was to thwart and thus, through discipline, to bring under then control of reason and authority the natural tendencies of the child.  The sensationalism of Locke became the philosophical basis of the naturalism of Rousseau so far as it sought one in the nature of knowledge.  Both Believing that education must be based upon a sound physique, cared for as a distinct plan of education; both believed that education in its earlier stages was a training in sense perception; both held that the process of education should be made pleasurable and the harshness ..."

Forcing a child to sit still in a classroom all day and even taking away recess time and physical education is hateful, and unfit for a society of well rounded individuals capable of improving the human condition.  Arguments to the contrary are appreciated.  

You wrote "Germany is an intellectual powerhouse because of all those little (former) principalities having, as a matter of prestige, their own Universities.  Also a musical powerhouse because all those principalities had orchestras or symphonies.  France was more a matter of the philosophy."   There is a brilliant explanation of the importance of culture.  You said the question should be " why did Germany develop science and technology, but why did Great Britain and France not develop it?" I think the answer is Prussia?  Again I welcome arguments to the contrary.  

Rome adopted Athens technology but not its culture.  When military men took over the control of Rome, don't you think that would effect the culture of Rome or maybe the other way around, the defense need of Rome changed its culture making military leadership more attractive?     Prussia lived for a love of military might.  Following the 30 Years War Prussia took control of all of Germany, and that made raising in the military ranks prestigious.   Fathers would encourage their daughters to marry a general, whereas in the US fathers would encourage their daughters to marry industrial leaders.  See an important difference there?  

Prussia centralized education, destroyed Germany's national heroes and convinced everyone that their bureaucratic order and efficiency was superior to the old order.  This mentality makes humans as an ant hill, far more than the culture we once had that advanced individualism.  Arguments to the contrary appreciated.   See the marvelous architecture and other works of art left to us because of government spending during the Great Depression.  Does your local school prepare students for the arts?  Does you local school have a debate team and public speaking?  Does your community support the arts?  Fortunately mine does, but the communities next to mine do not.  What kind of life does education for technology prepare our young to have?  What is important to civilization?  

Oh man, the alarm went off.  I hope I have the energy to return to your post when I get back.  Thank you so much for your thoughts.  They are very important to me.  






Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2019 at 10:23
franciscosan "I don't know what France was like in the 1800s, however, Simone Weil said that the French Revolution was a conservative revolution, not a liberal one.  It was at least initially not the intellectuals who took over but the mob, and the Terror."

People don't read long post and our post have been too long and complex and there isn't a strong interest in education so I am going to turn your question into its own thread.  I will also get the lectures about Utopia and Terror from the library.  I think it can be argued that Intellectuals did begin the revolution but the effort to make change spun out of control.  I vaguely remember France was having an economic problem and the king had to tax the elite and they refused to accept that.  Then things spun out of control.  


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2019 at 11:01
franciscosan "Whereas, Germany may have emphasized technical education, it seems to me, that Britain and the US were at the forefront of industrialization."

There is no end to how many directions this discussion could take.  Scott Nearing, Ph. D.'s 1916 book "Poverty and Riches" seems to question if Germany should be our WWI enemy.  This is perhaps a subject to take up in alternative histories.  What if the US had taken Germany's side?  The Germans had a much better standard of living than the British and the industrial history of Britain is horrifying!  The Germans had a higher standard of living because Bismark applied Prussian military bureaucracy to citizens, giving them a national health plan, worker's compensation and national pension plan, and the Germans had better education for children.   The industrial history of the US could have been as bad as Britain's if it had not been for an interest in Germany education and also the West with all its resources.  Britain's working masses had no place to go to escape the hellish conditions of Britain's industrial cities.  In the US they could go West and have a chance of having better lives.  

Just before the first world war the US protect children with a law forbidding them from working during school hours.  When we mobilized for war, Industry attempted to close the schools claiming the war caused a labor shortage and that they were not getting their monies worth from education because they still had to train new employees.   Had Industry won their argument that would have been the end of the law keeping children out of Industry during school hours.  But both Industry and the Military immediately needed laborers trained for modern technology so there was a compromise.  The schools would be kept open and the schools would become vocational trainers.  


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2019 at 11:24
franciscosan "Also, I don't know John Dewey very well, but he wrote on education, and I thought that his purpose of schools was to turn out good workers (good drones?), not necessarily good citizens.  Thomas Jefferson emphasized three years of reading, writing, and aRithmetic.  Enough in his opinion for people to educate themselves.  Of course, there still is liberal education, but it is not so liberal anymore, and is like a prolonged childhood for many." 

I know there is much hatred of John Dewey and I am not sure it is justified.  His books are extremely hard to read, so I never plowed my way through them, but I really like some of this thoughts.  He was important to getting education going in the USSR but when the government of the USSR decided indoctrination was the most important use of education, they dropped Dewey and I thought that was because Dewey favored independent thinking.  But Christians are not in favor of such independent thinking and I thought that was why they hated him.  I will have to look into that.

Thomas Jefferson thought education was vital to a strong Republic.  He devoted his life and fortune to developing education.  

Liberal education is for free people prepared to be civic and industrial leaders, and as you brought up, prepared people for science and studying nature.  Now here I see an economic problem with education because when we had one room school houses, some schools were lucky to have a book that the children could share.  These schools could not rooms and books for science, but there was an attempt to interest children in all subjects.  Today it is the arts and music that get cut from the budget of money and time.  Heavens forbid if children spend their time on such fluff.  But this change is a cultural change that I think we need to consider because I do think we are preparing our young for the democracy we defended in two world wars.  

Education for technology has always been education for slaves.  We do not think of our present education for technology as education for slavery, but is a specialist prepared for self government, or dependency on a higher authority?   What qualifies a specialist to make decisions that effect everyone?   When Bush said he would attack Iraq, how many people used their computers to learn about Iraq instead of just rely on what the media was telling them?  I don't think our education for technology has given us the mental tools we need to be self governing people?   


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2019 at 13:29
So where's your german model now eh?Wink
Graduates today in the US are overflowing in the Liberal Arts dept, Liberal education is producing graduates who are primed for non profits but lack practical computer skills. Higher education is a system of indoctrination for expanded government through human services. Massive student loan debt encourages indentured servitude in exchange for a loan repayment reduction, say yes to employment in a violent market that is dependent on federal dollars to exist. Nothing created -but bureaucracy and paper work.

Are you saying the education model of Prussia was used by crazy Germans and thus the homogeneous worker class is bad? Or conservatism is bad?

The Naturalists rediscovering man's connection to nature was a race and a competition to find an ancestor linking the home country- say Britain, to an Original Man. It's never purely without politics is it?



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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2019 at 05:07
I don't know much about Dewey, read a couple of articles, 20 years ago, but generally he is ignored in philosophy these days, as far as I can tell.  I got the impression that he set up the school like the factory or something like that.  I will have to look him up on wikipedia.

Who are you addressing Vanuatu?

When the Athenians converted their economy into oil production and exportation, and instead imported grain, that was a specialization.  I think specialization is a response to an economic situation, one that depends less on raw materials and more on finished products.

Simone Weil wrote about the French Revolution being a conservative one, but I did not finish her essay, and so do not have a good grasp on it.  She was brilliant, but I don't have a good grasp on French history, which is part of the problem.  I was wondering if you knew anything about that?

I took two (month long) Summer sessions at Concordia College language camp for German, and a year of High School German, so about the equivalent of 3 years, plus a trip to Germany, Austria, Switzerland.  The trip was in 1985, the year I graduated from Public High School.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2019 at 07:29
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I don't know much about Dewey, read a couple of articles, 20 years ago, but generally he is ignored in philosophy these days, as far as I can tell.  I got the impression that he set up the school like the factory or something like that.  I will have to look him up on wikipedia.

Who are you addressing Vanuatu?
Carol, franciscosan, the group, anyone? 
I can follow the shrinks through time- John Dewey promoted Functionalism after Darwin and James, that led to Piaget's Constructivism, that is all indisputable. 

I don't doubt the origin of James' ideas (Prussia, ok) it just hasn't existed in the US. The causes and root causes for the decline in education vary depending who you ask. Thomas Sowell, said in his book Black Rednecks... and  in a youtube excerpt, that the quality of public schools after WW2 in New York City was excellent. The majority of test scores start to plummet with LBJ and the increase in social programs, so called "War on Poverty". Spiraling downward economic insecurity lead to harmful subculture and the break up of families and higher birthrates among people out of wedlock.

This isn't the influence of Functionalism, please explain if you see Functionalism working through government handouts?

Quote but I don't have a good grasp on French history, which is part of the problem.  I was wondering if you knew anything about that?
I know a little, Robespierre, that's another thread my friend. see you there




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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2019 at 03:37
Three things looking at Dewey's wikipedia page,
1)  It seems that he presupposes a certain notion of democracy, that later feeds into SDS participatory democracy, which feeds into charismatic leaders leading groups, and technocrats leading on issues.  I think most education is for democracy, in the sense that you don't know what you need.  To focus on "democracy," is to advocate a particular kind of democracy, to the detriment of others, as far as I see it.
2)  The description of teachers seems to be from Lake Woebegon, everybody is above average.  I would argue that what you need in teachers is teacher that will "teach" the children to be anti-fragile, to have thick skin, you want enthusiasm in the kids, but you want a little thick skin too.  That is better for the work place.
3)  I am not sure that Dewey got it, Stalin was a mass murderer, and Trotsky was a mass murderer wanna-be.  Maybe it was a good idea to save Trotsky from (extradition?? to) Stalin, but not because he was any better.

Most philosophy in American Universities these days are either British Analytic or Continental European, with American Pragmatism influencing those two.  James and Pierce are the main individuals having an influence.  I don't know about Dewey so much, maybe he is influential in education departments, my guess is that he was influential in his day, but is more of a historical intellectual influence today (intellectual history).


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2019 at 02:04
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

So where's your german model now eh?Wink
Graduates today in the US are overflowing in the Liberal Arts dept, Liberal education is producing graduates who are primed for non profits but lack practical computer skills. Higher education is a system of indoctrination for expanded government through human services. Massive student loan debt encourages indentured servitude in exchange for a loan repayment reduction, say yes to employment in a violent market that is dependent on federal dollars to exist. Nothing created -but bureaucracy and paper work.

Are you saying the education model of Prussia was used by crazy Germans and thus the homogeneous worker class is bad? Or conservatism is bad?

The Naturalists rediscovering man's connection to nature was a race and a competition to find an ancestor linking the home country- say Britain, to an Original Man. It's never purely without politics is it?


Excellent job of finding talking points.  It is not what happens in higher education that matters to me.  It is those first 12 grades that are vitally important.  

I am not sure indoctrination is a bad thing.  It is required for all groups of people because there is no group, tribe, civilization without it.   For example- I am a Hopi and not an Apache because I learned the ways of my people and they are not the same as the ways of the Apache.  I am loyal to "my people" and will defend them from "those people".  So now, are our people great warriors or are they people of peace?   Again and again our indoctrination was of peace and equality and human rights and human dignity, but now it is very clearly indoctrination for military might, competition, and an amoral society. People who think they have rights but not duties and are not good citizens in a democracy.  This troubles me a lot.    

Wow I just googled for an explanation of adopting the German model of education and there is a lot of information!  What is happening?  When I started there was no useful information on the web for understanding the change in education or the Military Industrial Complex and now there is a lot of information!Thumbs Up   I perceive a huge shift in our consciousness and this is very exciting to me.  

Something that is not coming up in the explanations is the relationship between the bureaucratic model and education.  Our bureaucratic model was totally dependent on strong, individual leaders who could take charge like a captain on a ship and get things done.  What made the US different from Germany is, as fast as our leaders in war were taken out, another would take his place.  Our pilots made their own decisions and this was a advantage when fighting an air force dependent on orders.  
Under the democratic model of industry, everyone is prepared to rise to the top.  Under the autocratic model, "of course we don't promote the laborer, but only those who are one of us".  

Confused I am dying here.  What I am saying is so complex and now my sister is in my head, telling me my wording isn't right and I sound like a nut.  She is much better at organizing my words, but doesn't have the concepts I have picked up over the years.  Our democracy has always been threatened by autocracy.  Our industry was modeled after England's autocracy and despite all our talk about democracy, we are very autocratic.  Autocracy is efficient, democracy is not.  Without education for democracy, the autocratic force is taking over, and with the Prussian bureaucratic model, autocracy can rule and be very powerful, crushing individual liberty and power.   Problem is the bureaucratic order we had was inefficient, vulnerable, and could not possibly manage social programs like Social Security.  Look what happened when Lincoln was killed.  All his policies died with him, and what was done to the South was very bad and nothing like the union Lincoln wanted to create.  Leaders die, and everything goes into chaos until everyone adjust to a new leader.  Rule by policy lives on and on and on, and it takes an act of congress to change anything.   Some people are thrilled with the idea of computers ruling our lives, and that wouldn't be a big, noticeable change from the bureaucratic order we are under now.  Effectively we have computer control now, only the organization of it isn't hard wires, but humans programmed to follow the program that is "policy". 

Is that what you were talking about when you explained liberal education and dependency on the government for jobs?  Your concern is valid but based on incomplete information.   That is just as much education for the Military Industrial Complex, as an engineering degree and using it to develop weapons, in a community that is dependent on government jobs that include but are not limited to the military industry.  Our national strength now depends on this bureaucratic order that manages our lives, just as Tocqueville warned in his 1800 book "Democracy in America."

My goal is to increase awareness of what bureaucratic order and education have to do with one another.   Did I achieve it or totally fail?  





Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 13 Jul 2019 at 02:06
Both of you are doing great and Cry  I have to go to work.  I will return as soon as possible.  


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2019 at 00:37

Quote Thumbs Up   I perceive a huge shift in our consciousness and this is very exciting to me.
 

Very kool Thumbs Up

Quote Some people are thrilled with the idea of computers ruling our lives, and that wouldn't be a big, noticeable change from the bureaucratic order we are under now.  Effectively we have computer control now, only the organization of it isn't hard wires, but humans programmed to follow the program that is "policy".
Right, so the more bureaucracy the less humanity actually involved ironically effecting the fields designated for the well being of humans like clinical psychology. 

Quote Is that what you were talking about when you explained liberal education and dependency on the government for jobs?  Your concern is valid but based on incomplete information. 

Ok well then here you must explain how a government bureaucracy and the manner of humans since recorded history differ in grooming their young for war or work. 
The MIC is a large part of the Zeitgeist overview of history where the Rothchilds and other wealthy families in congruence for centuries, plot for constant war. I agree the old money and the old families have the most influence. In the Unites States the Lobbyist is fronting for corporations so they can make war.

Indoctrination is unavoidable but humans have historically separated themselves from group think under great duress and at great costs to themselves. The group think is sometimes wrong headed.
The first indoctrination is into your family or group as an infant, it's not always good for the individual.


Quote That is just as much education for the Military Industrial Complex, as an engineering degree and using it to develop weapons, in a community that is dependent on government jobs that include but are not limited to the military industry.  Our national strength now depends on this bureaucratic order that manages our lives, just as Tocqueville warned in his 1800 book "Democracy in America."
I was disappointed recently when a scientist whom I admire, Rupert Sheldrake, made public his plans to apply his research for military purposes. It's a reality that he can't develop anything without research dollars and he's choosing this route with the military over obscurity IMHO. So I understand the frustration but I guess I'd rather see Sheldrake working than not.

Quote My goal is to increase awareness of what bureaucratic order and education have to do with one another.   Did I achieve it or totally fail?
You did increase awareness and you are a good writer not a failure at all. Glad you provided the information on William James, he is an interesting fellow.Tongue






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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2019 at 07:11
I am not sure that the child or infant is an individual.  One first has to make it through childhood.  The best bet for that is two loving parents.  

I am not sure how the American education system reflects the German system, esp. for K-12.  In High School the German system breaks into three tracks, "Gymnasium" (like _give me, not Jim), trade school and blue collar, unskilled trade workers.  Gymnasium is for college bound, trade school is for those destined for skilled trades, then the 'drop-outs' (my term) are for those going into unskilled trades.  It would be nice if the American system were this organized, on the other hand, you have to know what you want fairly early on, to get the grades in Middle School (Jr. High) in order to get on the track for Gymnasium or Trade school, to get on the track of University or apprenticeships.  In America, everybody is told that they should go to college, which means that wherever they end up, they are probably not using what they learned in college.  With one exception, they know how to play the game and put up with bullsh-t, that is, unless they are creating more than their fair share of it.

One thing that Allan Bloom said about Americans, Americans discover Plato and the other 'greats' when they are of a maturity in which they can beginning to be able to understand and appreciate them, first or second year of college, and that can open up a whole new horizon for the student.  Europeans tend to be introduced to Plato in middle school, when they don't and properly can't yet appreciate him because they don't have the maturity.  By the time Europeans get the maturity they look on Plato and others as old hat, and if they are still doing philosophy, they have moved on to the latest fad.  They feel they already know what is in the 'greats' and so why bother looking at it once again, with new eyes.

Of course, Allan Bloom was the student of a highly influential German-Jewish refugee political philosopher who came over during? WWII.  Leo Strauss.  Strauss eventually settled at the University of Chicago, and probably indirectly influenced their Great Works program.


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2019 at 12:35
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I don't know much about Dewey, read a couple of articles, 20 years ago, but generally he is ignored in philosophy these days, as far as I can tell.  I got the impression that he set up the school like the factory or something like that.  I will have to look him up on wikipedia.

Who are you addressing Vanuatu?

When the Athenians converted their economy into oil production and exportation, and instead imported grain, that was a specialization.  I think specialization is a response to an economic situation, one that depends less on raw materials and more on finished products.

Simone Weil wrote about the French Revolution being a conservative one, but I did not finish her essay, and so do not have a good grasp on it.  She was brilliant, but I don't have a good grasp on French history, which is part of the problem.  I was wondering if you knew anything about that?

I took two (month long) Summer sessions at Concordia College language camp for German, and a year of High School German, so about the equivalent of 3 years, plus a trip to Germany, Austria, Switzerland.  The trip was in 1985, the year I graduated from Public High School.

You are so fortunate to have had those experiences.  I looked up Concordia College language camp for German and it appears to be a wonderful experience and then to follow with actually traveling to Germany and surrounding countries.  Wow, that would be an experience to remember.  I envy so much.  The lecturer about writing non-fiction creative history books, that listened to recently just assumed we could all travel to the places we what to write about.  I will never be able to do that and believe that is a serious handicap in my writing.   

I don't want to get into the French Revolution here but when this topic is exhausted, that is another one I would like to get into.  Say comparing the American Revolution with the French one and discussion why the French Revolution failed.   It has everything to do with culture and that is connected with this discussion, but if we talk about too much, everything gets lost in the verbiage.

I don't understand what you are referring to with Athenians converting their economy to oil?  They created an economic crisis for themselves when they fought the war with Persia, and collected tribute from all the other Greeks to pay for their defense and then got accustom to spending that money to benefit Athens.  Leading to trying to force Greeks to continue paying that protection money after Persia stopped invading, leading to Sparta kicking Athens ass.  Confused  We were the Athens of modern times and Germany was the Sparta.  Now we are the Sparta.  Sparta defeated Athens and took control of it.  We defeated Germany but we adopted its ways and our democracy has gone the way of Athens in about the same number of years-  200 years.  The change occurs, education adjusts and then spreads the change through the state.  We never had the enemies we have today and our education is no longer about being who we were but defending ourselves against the enemies we have made.   Are we saying the same thing differently?  

Dewey and education is a huge subject!  He was influenced by the Herbartian movement.

"Herbartianism (Her-bart-ti-an-ism) is an educational philosophy, movement, and method loosely based on the educational and pedagogical thought of German educator  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Friedrich_Herbart" rel="nofollow - Johann Friedrich Herbart , and influential on American school pedagogy of the late 19th century as the field worked towards a science of education. Herbart advocated for instruction that introduced new ideas in discrete steps. About a quarter-century after his death, Herbart's ideas were expanded in two German schools of thought that were later embodied in the method used at a practice school in  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jena" rel="nofollow - Jena , which attracted educationists from the United States. Herbartianism was later replaced by new pedagogies, such as those of  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dewey" rel="nofollow - John Dewey ."   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbartianism" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbartianism

I think under Dewey this became the conceptual method of teaching children increasingly complex concepts.  

"To some, conceptual learning can be seen as more of a top-down approach versus the bottom-up model used in more traditional learning. To others who view traditional learning as rote memorization of facts and figures, conceptual learning is seen as a means for getting students to think more critically about the new subjects and situations they encounter."   https://evolve.elsevier.com/education/concept-based-curriculum/conceptual-learning-definition/" rel="nofollow - https://evolve.elsevier.com/education/concept-based-curriculum/conceptual-learning-definition/

You know that debate about critical thinking skills, and the Texas Republican 2012 agenda to prevent education for that.   https://www.forbes.com/sites/johntharvey/2012/07/01/texas-gop-platform/#4e7b1a53666d" rel="nofollow - https://www.forbes.com/sites/johntharvey/2012/07/01/texas-gop-platform/#4e7b1a53666d     That goes with the Texas fight for science text books to give as much coverage of the Creationist story as the science books give to evolution as though both were scientifically equal.   

I will repeat my opinion that the objection to Dewey is Christian and not founded in a scientific understanding of human development.  I haven't read anything by or about Dewey that makes me think poorly of him, but as I said, he is hard to read, so maybe I just haven't read enough.


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2019 at 12:59
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Three things looking at Dewey's wikipedia page,
1)  It seems that he presupposes a certain notion of democracy, that later feeds into SDS participatory democracy, which feeds into charismatic leaders leading groups, and technocrats leading on issues.  I think most education is for democracy, in the sense that you don't know what you need.  To focus on "democracy," is to advocate a particular kind of democracy, to the detriment of others, as far as I see it."

This is something that seriously needs to be discussed!  From my point of view, to not focus on democracy means the end of our democracy.  If we do not have a concept of what our USA democracy is, how can we defend it?  Only when that is defended in the classroom is it defended and we have not done that since 1958, leading to cultural crisis and authoritarianism swallowing up our liberty.  Who is defending our democracy a concept and social order, if it is not every citizen prepared to do so?  

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:


2)  The description of teachers seems to be from Lake Woebegon, everybody is above average.  I would argue that what you need in teachers is teacher that will "teach" the children to be anti-fragile, to have thick skin, you want enthusiasm in the kids, but you want a little thick skin too.  That is better for the work place.

And what is good for the home and all our human relationships?  You can have the think skin and be competitive you want, but I want to be feminine and soft and I think such qualities might be very important to humanity?  Big smile  I think males and females have different roles to play and the role of females is just as important, and maybe a little more so, for humanity.   Unless you want war of course.

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

3)  I am not sure that Dewey got it, Stalin was a mass murderer, and Trotsky was a mass murderer wanna-be.  Maybe it was a good idea to save Trotsky from (extradition?? to) Stalin, but not because he was any better.

What happened to being thick and strong willed?   What does Dewey have to do with Stalin and Trotsky?   Ermm  That hasn't come up in my reading, but good heavens, no one can read everything.

[QUOTE=franciscosan]
Most philosophy in American Universities these days are either British Analytic or Continental European, with American Pragmatism influencing those two.  James and Pierce are the main individuals having an influence.  I don't know about Dewey so much, maybe he is influential in education departments, my guess is that he was influential in his day, but is more of a historical intellectual influence today (intellectual history).

I would say Dewey has zero influence in education for a technological society with unknown values.  I would also say, education for democracy begins with the Greek and Roman classics and unless that is part of education, there is not education for democracy.   

Most important there could not be a good discussion if you were not so well informed!  What is happening here is a million times better than threatening to ban me if I say one more thing about the Military Industrial Complex theory, and totally missing all possible talking points.  I am looking forward to you adding to the little bit I know.  


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2019 at 11:30
Eisenhower was, I believe, warning about the military/Industrial Complex because 1) he was well familiar with it, 2) they couldn't put much past him being a former 5 star general.  3) Kennedy had been elected on a promise that we could do anything and everything.  Eisenhower's position, from what I understand was a more sober, 'we can't do both guns and butter, bombers and hospitals.'  I think that is still very true, but I am not sure who has learned it.

I am not sure I would call the Military Industrial Complex a theory.  For Eisenhower, I would venture to say it was a reality that he was very familiar with.  Now, others may have turned it into a theory, but that is after the fact.  The word, "Theory" has the implications of being speculative or conjectural, which at least for Eisenhower, it was not. 

I don't particularly have anything against John Dewey, I just don't have anything for him.  My academic background is in philosophy, and I used to pick up philosophy books at used bookstores, and library sales, including a fair amount by Dewey.  Eventually I decided I wasn't ever going to read it, and got rid of it.  He seems to be someone who was influential at the time, but has not withstood the test of time.  But, on the other hand, I don't know or understand what education departments do.  


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2019 at 03:08
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

I think Brickner's idea that Germany suffered from more than mild insanity during the years of the Nazi Party is logical. That is, it was the channeling of group hysteria, fear and desperation to control "others" describes at least 3 generations of Germans, WW1 adults, their children and grandchildren.  

Would you elaborate on the details of changes made to schools based on Germany's model?
I don't have the book is not available on scribd but I looked at some abstracts online. Thanks

Thank you greatly for your comment and questions!  

Please know the success of the Nazi party was its campaigning Technics.  Number one, it sent people into rural areas to ask people what angered them the most, and then sent in speakers who lectured about how they would correct the problems that angered the most.   They did this year round, year after year, not just in the limited campaign time that was normal.   We are doing this.  We have political activity that is like the Nazi party on steroids.  Our technology for this is greatly improved with radio, television, the web..  We are surveyed and then feed what we want to hear, written by professional speech makers.   This is obviously emotionally driven and when we do not have education for critical thinking and don't even know what that is Shocked we aren't thinking with our heads, but our feelings.  That makes us easy to manipulate.  It results in reactionary politics.  

I am rushing this explanation so it will be a little careless, but until I can quit working it will be like this.  We replaced education for independent thinking with "group think".  We destroyed our national heroes as the Prussians destroyed Germany's national heroes.  This is eliminating strong independent thinkers from society, except for the elite who can send their children to the expensive schools to be trained in leadership.   The masses are the subjects to be led.   Do you see the connections?  We are recreating the ills of monarchy, and think this is being superior and essential to our position as a world leader and "our defense".   What separates us from the past is our wealth, not our mentality.  Only the titles of royalty are changed.  Our empires are international and we are blind to them, except if we become personally aware of them.   Their existence and the military cost of defending them is not mass media news.   

I am hoping people of history can relate to today's empires and the empires of the past and what education has to do with this.  Education for technology has always been for slaves.  Liberal education is for the elite, the free people who sit in the seats of power.  We depend on them, because we know they know more than we do and they hold more power than we do.    Don't forget, their tax cuts will benefit us, as we support the military force that defends their empires with our tax dollars.  LOL  Is time cyclical or linear?   

It is not just a change in education but vitally important, is to understand, the change in bureaucratic organization.  We no longer need to prepare everyone for civic and industrial leadership and democratic values, because of improvements in bureaucratic technology that shifts power to the bureaucracy and crushes individual power and liberty.  This is not all bad.  It is our failure to understand our changed reality that is bad.  


  




Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 02:40
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Eisenhower was, I believe, warning about the military/Industrial Complex because 1) he was well familiar with it, 2) they couldn't put much past him being a former 5 star general.  3) Kennedy had been elected on a promise that we could do anything and everything.  Eisenhower's position, from what I understand was a more sober, 'we can't do both guns and butter, bombers and hospitals.'  I think that is still very true, but I am not sure who has learned it.

I am not sure I would call the Military Industrial Complex a theory.  For Eisenhower, I would venture to say it was a reality that he was very familiar with.  Now, others may have turned it into a theory, but that is after the fact.  The word, "Theory" has the implications of being speculative or conjectural, which at least for Eisenhower, it was not. 

I don't particularly have anything against John Dewey, I just don't have anything for him.  My academic background is in philosophy, and I used to pick up philosophy books at used bookstores, and library sales, including a fair amount by Dewey.  Eventually I decided I wasn't ever going to read it, and got rid of it.  He seems to be someone who was influential at the time, but has not withstood the test of time.  But, on the other hand, I don't know or understand what education departments do.  

The Military Industrial Complex existed before Eisenhower because that is what we have when go to war.  All national resources get focused on winning wars and when war continues, military men get the seats of power, in Athens, Rome, Germany, the US.  There is no need to make a big stink over this except when the country can not demobilize, the temporary conditions of war are permanent.  I write about this simply because I think awareness of our changed reality is important to having some power of control.  Living in denial or complete unawareness is living without the control we think citizens of a democracy ought to have.  

A book written at the time of the second world war questions if our democracy will never revert back to a peace time economy, not because there is this thing we call the Military Industrial Complex ruled by a set of men.  The concern was, all the industries that got government contracts during the war would retain them after the war, and that is what happened.  Eisenhower, for legitimate national defense reasons, assured all those contractors would keep their contracts and the government would support more and more national defense contractors.  

The closest we come to being ruled by intentionally organized Military Industrial Leaders, is the neoconservatives who began organizing themselves into a political force in the 1960's.  Stern Smile  The changes Eisenhower made gave such people the bureaucratic structure required for the political military power people such as the neocons wanted.  This is what Eisenhower warned us of only because we ignore his warning and don't understand bureaucratic structure or government contracts or anything else we need to know about our changed reality these neocons have all the control we have none.  We do not understand enough to have the political power we think we have.   

By the way, this organization includes government contracted research and connections with media that did not exist before Eisenhower.   Reagan, a neocon, replaced government research of poverty with reach of welfare fraud, and then scapegoated the poor for our economic problems as surely as the Germans scapegoated the Jews.  The research was made big, big news for political reasons, shifting power and wealth dramatically.  Reagan slashed all domestic budgets and poured money into military spending, and granted arms to our favored mid east countries.  We did not go to war, but we did station our navy in the Persian gulf.  This followed on the heels of OPEC embargoing oil to the US because of the oil countries objecting to our protection of Israel.  The relationship between neocons and the control of the Military Industrial Complex, is something of which we should all be aware.  My problem with all of this is our lack of awareness.  These folks have greater control of media than they did during the Vietnam war.  In fact, it was anti war protest that motivated them to organize and take control.

I would like to know how many people are aware of the changes in public education and the increasing role the federal government has played in controlling that education?  Again, Eisenhower, set the stage for what was to follow.  He asked congress for the 1958 National Defense Education Act, replacing the liberal education we had with education for the technology for military and industrial purpose.  It is not an insult to say this is what the Prussians did to German education.  It is just a fact.  We need to think in terms of how things are organized and then how the changed organization changes everything else.
The purpose of education was radically changed in 1958.  The Act had a 4 year limit and we blew past that 4 year limit long ago.  When I think of Bush Jr. smiling face and the "No Child Left Behind Act" I want to scream, wake up folks!   That act makes it mandatory for schools to report students names and addresses to the military recruiters.  




  



Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 18 Jul 2019 at 03:12
Quote I don't particularly have anything against John Dewey, I just don't have anything for him.  My academic background is in philosophy, and I used to pick up philosophy books at used bookstores, and library sales, including a fair amount by Dewey.  Eventually I decided I wasn't ever going to read it, and got rid of it.  He seems to be someone who was influential at the time, but has not withstood the test of time.  But, on the other hand, I don't know or understand what education departments do.
franciscosan 

I bought books by John Dewey and didn't read him because he is very hard to read, but he says amazing things about thinking and having personal power or not.   Books written about what he said are much easier to read.  Maybe a thread could center just on him and how we think and react?  Also this man is amazing....  
Quote ThinkingFast and Slow is a best-selling book published in 2011 by Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences laureate Daniel Kahneman.

We can greatly improve our personal power by understanding how things are organized and also by understanding how our brains work.  John Dewey and Daniel Kahneman have valuable things to say about how we think and behave.   These are not the only geniuses on the subject.

Quote http://www.dklevine.com/general/whatis.htm" rel="nofollow -

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHKZ_enUS481US483&ei=gUQvXc2LGbO40PEP2rmMqA0&q=game+theory&oq=game+theory&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l10.320005.322984..324506...0.0..0.204.1711.0j10j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i131j0i67j0i131i67j0i10.EK10st5c1Gw&ved=0ahUKEwiN0L74p7zjAhUzHDQIHdocA9UQ4dUDCAo&uact=5#" rel="nofollow -
  1. http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:1gFpv182_70J:www.dklevine.com/general/whatis.htm+&cd=27&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us" rel="nofollow -
  2. https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHKZ_enUS481US483&q=related:www.dklevine.com/general/whatis.htm+game+theory&tbo=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjM_9iWqbzjAhWeGDQIHQNzBIEQHzAaegQIBxAF" rel="nofollow -
What economists call game theory psychologists call the theory of social situations, which is an accurate description of what game theory is about. Although ...


We love to think of science as our friend, but science is also being used to manipulate us into buying things, or voting a certain way, or approve of military actions such as defending Israel without paying attention to the cause of their conflict with Palestinians and other things such as why we oppose Iran.  We are bulls with a ring in our nose.  Especially with the science of human thinking and behavior, we are easily controlled.  Except the child in the classroom who acts out with an animal instinct to not be controlled.  Dewey mentions this is the result of not having personal power.   However, most of us are socially sheep going along with the herd.   Or we are silently disenfranchised and apathetic.  Spending all day with a computer game is a good way to avoid reality.  Big smile
 


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 19 Jul 2019 at 14:26
Regan did spend a lot on defense but Bill Clinton initiated and overwhelmingly had bi-partisan support for welfare reform.

Everyone here was alive during the Lebanon bombings and your version is welcome but I'm very clear about why Iran and US are at odds. You can dig up any old corpse to explain a conflict but I don't hear any ideas for resolution.

Our educational system is Leftist, beyond Liberal! 
Beefy and confused black young men are running track & wrestling in high school sports against girls and taking athletic scholarships!

Unless whitey is the new Jew this isn't a Nazi takeover, unless ANTIFA starts singing kumbaya, Violence is the new progressive watchword. 

Where did ANTIFA come from? 
The neocon schools?


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 00:07
Originally posted by Athena Athena wrote:

franciscosan "I don't know what France was like in the 1800s, however, Simone Weil said that the French Revolution was a conservative revolution, not a liberal one.  It was at least initially not the intellectuals who took over but the mob, and the Terror."

People don't read long post and our post have been too long and complex and there isn't a strong interest in education so I am going to turn your question into its own thread.  I will also get the lectures about Utopia and Terror from the library.  I think it can be argued that Intellectuals did begin the revolution but the effort to make change spun out of control.  I vaguely remember France was having an economic problem and the king had to tax the elite and they refused to accept that.  Then things spun out of control.  
It was the King Louis XVI my friend Smile and his spendy wife. Remember?  
Massive debt bc of overspending? the peasants were already starving and then a bad harvest, bread gets too expensive and Marie Antoinette's hair just got bigger? 

The progressives began random massacres after starving and getting pumped up on reading George Danton pamphlets. 
The Intellectuals took sides after they saw what happened at the Bastille. The peasants roused a whopping 4 political prisoners you see, their crime? Existence! And then their heads were on pikes. 

There were multiple sects of revolutionaries and the counter revolutionaries were just as vicious. 
These are not just the poor and starving, add pimps, prostitutes, street gangs and thieves. 
(ANTIFA types or Black Lives Matter showing up in Ferguson, now it's a riot) 
So criminals started wearing colors of the sans culottes and went out slaughtering and robbing citizens.

Feel free to make an argument but the facts of the French Revolution and millions of documents don't support the contemporary need for political posturing and virtue signaling spin. 

The French Revolution began, and for its entire duration remained, soaked in innocent blood. Mob tyranny, popular mob “justice”, and widespread paranoia reigned from the moment the Bastille fell until the dawn of the Terror in fall 1793. Contrary to the self-serving and prevailing liberal historiography which dominated nineteenth century studies of the Revolution, which urged that the conflict be separated into a legitimate, ideal, more civilized “liberal” phase (1789-1793) and a tragically unintended, accidental “radical phase” (the Terror, fall 1793-summer 1794), in actuality a clear, uninterrupted, chronological line of popular violence unrestrained by the revolutionary leaders exists from 14 July 1789 onward. From the storming of the Bastille through the Great Fear, October Days, Champs de Mars massacre, and September Massacres, the Revolution – hardly restrained by the liberal Enlightenment ideals which purportedly united its adherents – saw thousands of people slaughtered without trial in the name of liberty.
When a political movement is soaked in blood from its very onset, it is insulting to basic intelligence to argue somehow that it was not violent from its foundation. Before the guillotine, the “national razor”, severed some 17,000 heads, long before the official start of the Terror, Parisian mobs massacred hundreds of royal guards who were simply doing their duty, slaughtered over 1,300 innocent civilians and clergy in Paris jails, and within four years of the Bastille’s storming (itself a violent event), the nascent Republic’s generals slaughtered approximately a quarter of a million people in three years’ time. The term “liberal revolution” with its conjuring of fidelity to restrained, rational liberal Enlightenment ideals is an ignorant misnomer at best and at worst a crass, deliberate fiction. The supreme irony is that from its foundations the Revolution’s radicals lauded the ideals of liberty and universal justice while never consistently abiding by them; decrying the supposed tyranny of an ancien regime that brutally tortured and executed a handful of would-be-regicides and murderers over several centuries, the radical revolutionaries bathed the infant Republic in blood, slaughtering some 250,000 Catholic Frenchmen and women in three years in the name of liberty and justice.
-ryan phunter -wordpress the french revolution, violent from inception



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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 01:33
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Regan did spend a lot on defense but Bill Clinton initiated and overwhelmingly had bi-partisan support for welfare reform.

Everyone here was alive during the Lebanon bombings and your version is welcome but I'm very clear about why Iran and US are at odds. You can dig up any old corpse to explain a conflict but I don't hear any ideas for resolution.

Our educational system is Leftist, beyond Liberal! 
Beefy and confused black young men are running track & wrestling in high school sports against girls and taking athletic scholarships!

Unless whitey is the new Jew this isn't a Nazi takeover, unless ANTIFA starts singing kumbaya, Violence is the new progressive watchword. 

Where did ANTIFA come from? 
The neocon schools?

What is your understanding of why Iran and the US are at odds?  That is not a subject I want to get into in this thread, but I am very curious.  

I recently bought a book that blames the National Education Association for the destruction of our morality, decline in test scores, and destruction of parental control of  their children and what they learn, and the increased in the cost of the education.   I do not agree with this point of view but I also share agreements with the author about the schools usurping parental authority and trashing our morals.   I am quite sure the changes are coming from the teachers' training and then get expressed in the NEA.  Another fact the author missed is who is writing the text books and providing materials for teachers!  Big smile  Who is really calling the shots?   I don't think it is NEA but those who control their education.   

It is the textbook publishers who need our attention.  The North attempted to change the culture of the South through education.  The South became aware of this and began publishing its own textbooks. We began mobilizing for the second world war long before we entered it and I have the textbooks to prove that.  In both WWI and WWII our schools played a huge role in mobilization and keeping morale high.  Our education was dominated by Christians and this was reflected in textbooks and the frequent mention of God.  I collect old text books to check these things out.  

I hope to go to the University of Oregon and perhaps audit some classes and ask questions of the department head.  I want to check out the library for teachers too.   I don't know how to work this in with my job, but know some how it must get done!

LOL  I live in the past, old books, and I don't pay attention to today's politics so I knew nothing of ANTIFA.  I laugh because the description of it I found says this folks are acting just like the NAZI with violence.  LOL  That is ridiculous to oppose your foe by being just like your foe.  Whatever, both sides of the conflict have had the same education.   And you bring up a point I want to stress.

Humans need a sense of purpose and they need social esteem.  I know plenty of people withdraw and isolate themselves, like someone who is not good at running is unlikely to join a race, but not participating does not mean we don't have a need to succeed.  Now here is the vital point.  When my grandmother's generation of teachers was defending democracy in the classroom, they were helping each child discover his/her talents and special interest.  I remember the push to choose a hobby, as having a hobby was consider important to our mental health and that is important to our social behavior.  And it didn't stop with our education but communities of any size had fairs, and I so remember the great pride in entering something I did, or my children did, in the fair.  The education we had manifested a community of people engaging with each other and organizing into unions and granges, fraternities, Elks, Masons, etc..  Social needs were met by individuals or groups of individuals not government!  I remember a very, very different reality than the one we have now, and Tocqueville's 1835 book "Democracy in American" praising the US democracy for the very fact that citizens took care of each other and worked together without government intervention and he warned of the coming despot that would control every aspect of our lives.

What does that have to do with NAZI and Anti-NAZI folks?  We need a sense of meaning and social esteem.   We need to belong to social groups and to feel important.  Education manifest a society that does this very well, or does not.  Prussians applied military bureaucracy to citizens, and we adopt that, so now we have a government we can rely on, and our social organizations are behaving like thugs destroying instead of working together to improve the community.  We have had the same education that manifested the thugs that filled the NAZI ranks and being just like them but opposing them, is not really being different is it?  LOL  Yes, the ANTIFA came from the same schools.  

People used to play base ball or foot ball.  The groups we have today are the same human species just playing games with different rules.   LOL  In ancient times competitions and games were invented to civilize the human beast.  




Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 04:03
Texas has a lot of influence on textbook publishers because of its large population and, I believe, centralized buying of textbooks.  California might also.  What do you mean by, "long before we entered it (WWII)"? 2 years, 5 years, 15 years?  World War II did not start in 1941, and so yes we were building to that conclusion before then, but I think that we didn't really mobilize or industrialize for war until after Pearl Harbor December 7th, 1941.

And yet there is such a division between moderates and radicals (on either end of the spectrum), despite them coming from the same schools.  Perhaps the schools are not as influential after all??

United States has its own system of propaganda, always has, that is one reason why we have a two party system which trades off.  Democrats are trying to change that by getting rid of the electoral college.  That way Hillary could have won by ignoring all the 'fly over states.'  

I see atheists as using schools to promote their anti-religious agenda, and religious conservatives coming up with creationism and intelligent design as answers to the atheists pushing religion out.  I think that if there was consistently a bible as literature class offered it would steal the fire from fundamentalists pushing creationism and intelligent design.

Yes, there were a lot more activities in fairs and civic organizations, but you leave out one important influence, churches.  You might ignore them, but just because you don't like them does not mean they will dry up and go away.  Hillary and Obama can talk about "Easter Worshippers" being killed in Sri Lanka, but that is just code talk to avoid calling them Christians which is how they identify themselves and how the attackers identified them as well.

More Christians have been killed in the 20th century than in all other centuries combined.  And yet some people want to paint Christianity as the tyrannical menace that haunts the 20th century.  It would be funny if it were not sad.  I don't know if that is your view, Athena, but if it is you should at least realize the contradiction.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2019 at 01:50

Quote

What is your understanding of why Iran and the US are at odds?  That is not a subject I want to get into in this thread, but I am very curious.
We can start another thread on US/ Iran- in a nutshell-Zionists made realistic but painful concessions both times interceding countries tried to create two state solution. PLO & Hamas have taken  every inch of land returned to them, not to house the Palestinians but to strategically improve launching sites for attacks on Israel. Every time. Same Story. Iran & Hamas directly & indirectly sponsor terror attacks all over the world and have used money meant for humanitarian aid. Palestinians were drinking water that was only 60% pure (recycled sewer water) until Bill Gates built them a water purification system.
Much more on the topic, could start with Jimmy Carter celebrating 100 years of friendship with Iran in 1973.

Quote I recently bought a book that blames the National Education Association for the destruction of our morality, decline in test scores, and destruction of parental control of  their children and what they learn, and the increased in the cost of the education.   I do not agree with this point of view but I also share agreements with the author about the schools usurping parental authority and trashing our morals.   I am quite sure the changes are coming from the teachers' training and then get expressed in the NEA.  Another fact the author missed is who is writing the text books and providing materials for teachers!  Big smile  Who is really calling the shots?   I don't think it is NEA but those who control their education. 
The NEA is a democrat party animal, teachers call their union reps to ask who they are supposed to be voting for, much like other workers unions. I have no love for the NEA, both my kids were home schooled after elementary age. ANTIFA is the stepchild of "Zietgeist" the popular "Woke" viral youtube which deigns to explain all of civilization in 90 minutes. 
Guess how it ends? 
With sneaky little sh*ts donning masks and violently taking to the streets to, ? destroy the structure of civilization.
I didn't go to the same school as the ANTIFA knuckleheads. Religious schools taught discipline and it had the unintentional effect of seeding esteem and belief in one's self and one's intuition. We had excellent Bull sh*t detectors as does the new generation "Z" who recognize and reject the blatant lies of advertising and politics, love those kids!
Condemn religion if you must. No one has provided more care to starving people than religious groups, their work and provisions surpasses anything given by any government in any time in history. It was the early Church that established Jesus' words "do on to others as you would have done to yourself." Any argument so far?
The dogmatic foolishness of Science is what keeps us in the dark. Religion has not made the mistake of denying the existence of other worlds they call it heaven and hell. 
This is subconscious/conscious/dream state, ancient language allegorical ideas. Science is terrified and Science is clinging much like Galen was to a kidney which he referred to as "The Liver!"

Quote LOL  I live in the past, old books, and I don't pay attention to today's politics so I knew nothing of ANTIFA.  I laugh because the description of it I found says this folks are acting just like the NAZI with violence.  LOL  That is ridiculous to oppose your foe by being just like your foe.  Whatever, both sides of the conflict have had the same education.   And you bring up a point I want to stress.
Again I differ on how much education ANTIFA had and the quality of their thinking and understanding of history. The are no both sides. There aren't even both sexes anymore. Yes it is ridiculous to complain about fascism while being a fascist.

Quote Now here is the vital point.  When my grandmother's generation of teachers was defending democracy in the classroom, they were helping each child discover his/her talents and special interest.  I remember the push to choose a hobby, as having a hobby was consider important to our mental health and that is important to our social behavior.  And it didn't stop with our education but communities of any size had fairs, and I so remember the great pride in entering something I did, or my children did, in the fair.  The education we had manifested a community of people engaging with each other and organizing into unions and granges, fraternities, Elks, Masons, etc..  Social needs were met by individuals or groups of individuals not government!  I remember a very, very different reality than the one we have now, and Tocqueville's 1835 book "Democracy in American" praising the US democracy for the very fact that citizens took care of each other and worked together without government intervention and he warned of the coming despot that would control every aspect of our lives.
We had Church centered activities, that's no different than stories of the Elders. Maybe you just think that way bc you didn't experience the church except through criticisms and blame it for the ills of the world.

Quote What does that have to do with NAZI and Anti-NAZI folks? 
*The German model is not the problem in schools, IMHO. The shutting down of original thinking and compelled adherence to group speech is fascism, that is what Nazism was and that is what ANTIFA represents, fascism. 
You may not have seen how they start fires to force conservatives speaking events to be shut down. 
I saw a grown man punch a young lady -just a committed hay-maker right at her head at Berkeley during a scheduled event that ANTIFA shut down. There is youtube video of ANTIFA brutally attacking a journalist about two weeks ago.

Are schools here to encourage the exchange of ideas?
Schools can never teach kids what their family culture can teach. You liked having a hobby, did your self esteem rise while in the school building proper?
Elementary schools could be more helpful in noticing natural talents and stop insisting on barbiturates for children who dare to fiddle in their seats.
I know the NEA puts a lot of pressure on teachers, locally now our schools will have kids spend snow days at virtual school. Maybe increasingly supplementing attendance at actual 'school' with home school.
Do you plan to send your kids to a public high school?




Quote We need a sense of meaning and social esteem.   We need to belong to social groups and to feel important.  Education manifest a society that does this very well, or does not.  Prussians applied military bureaucracy to citizens, and we adopt that, so now we have a government we can rely on, and our social organizations are behaving like thugs destroying instead of working together to improve the community.  We have had the same education that manifested the thugs that filled the NAZI ranks and being just like them but opposing them, is not really being different is it?    
LOL
People used to play base ball or foot ball.  The groups we have today are the same human species just playing games with different rules.   LOL  In ancient times competitions and games were invented to civilize the human beast.  


The Germans are hard working brilliant engineers and scientists, also some great humanitarians. If US copied their model it's because they were enormously successful and dominated industrialization developments. There are bloody cutting edge inventors!  
 
The schools are teaching hate the Founders, Hate the Revolutionaries, Hate coming together and fight each other so politicians can keep devising election strategies.

Cheers to allowing the youth to shine with own natural talents, or at least help them find their gifts!Beer


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2019 at 09:44
 
Quote Athena-What does that have to do with NAZI and Anti-NAZI folks?  We need a sense of meaning and social esteem.   We need to belong to social groups and to feel important.  Education manifest a society that does this very well, or does not.  Prussians applied military bureaucracy to citizens, and we adopt that, so now we have a government we can rely on, and our social organizations are behaving like thugs destroying instead of working together to improve the community.  We have had the same education that manifested the thugs that filled the NAZI ranks and being just like them but opposing them, is not really being different is it?    Yes, the ANTIFA came from the same schools.
 
Post WW1 the Germans were looking for a national identity. Germany never accepted the validity of the treaty of Versailles, multiple regions agreed to some conditions, refusing others while most of the population is suicidal, they owe something like 16 billion in today's money for war damages. 

Alienation, despair, hunger and Hitler were able to fine tune the anxieties into rage and fire. Germany skipped the mass lone shooter step and went straight to thuggish domination and all the rest. Hitler mobilized an entire world war by lecturing and feeding into a terror that already existed. Terrifying.

Our schools produce mass shooters, the types that can kill a group of 20+ five year old kids. Even the Nazis worried about the effects of troops seeing and participating in repetitive violent acts. They didn't want to win the war only to have a country full of psycho killers. They already knew what repeated killing does to a human being's psyche whether you feel justified in killing or not. 

That's why they started the camps for gassing people, death at a distance with no single responsible hand to bear all the guilt. And to spare them watching women, children and old people killed for no reason. No honor for the German heroes in that killing, Valkyries don't come for the devil. 

No we in US did not have the same education as those who filled the Nazi ranks, not the life situation and not a 70 year old curriculum.


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 02:05
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Texas has a lot of influence on textbook publishers because of its large population and, I believe, centralized buying of textbooks.  California might also.  What do you mean by, "long before we entered it (WWII)"? 2 years, 5 years, 15 years?  World War II did not start in 1941, and so yes we were building to that conclusion before then, but I think that we didn't really mobilize or industrialize for war until after Pearl Harbor December 7th, 1941.

And yet there is such a division between moderates and radicals (on either end of the spectrum), despite them coming from the same schools.  Perhaps the schools are not as influential after all??

United States has its own system of propaganda, always has, that is one reason why we have a two party system which trades off.  Democrats are trying to change that by getting rid of the electoral college.  That way Hillary could have won by ignoring all the 'fly over states.'  

I see atheists as using schools to promote their anti-religious agenda, and religious conservatives coming up with creationism and intelligent design as answers to the atheists pushing religion out.  I think that if there was consistently a bible as literature class offered it would steal the fire from fundamentalists pushing creationism and intelligent design.

Yes, there were a lot more activities in fairs and civic organizations, but you leave out one important influence, churches.  You might ignore them, but just because you don't like them does not mean they will dry up and go away.  Hillary and Obama can talk about "Easter Worshippers" being killed in Sri Lanka, but that is just code talk to avoid calling them Christians which is how they identify themselves and how the attackers identified them as well.

More Christians have been killed in the 20th century than in all other centuries combined.  And yet some people want to paint Christianity as the tyrannical menace that haunts the 20th century.  It would be funny if it were not sad.  I don't know if that is your view, Athena, but if it is you should at least realize the contradiction.

In 1940 the text books "Democracy Series" was published by The Macmillan Company in New York. This was the result of the 1939 Congress on Education for Democracy.    The EDITOR'S PREFACE FOR TEACHERS, explains because we disagree and criticize our country, ....

Quote It is important, therefore, in the long view of educational statesmanship that we take care to emphasize with children in constructive fashion the characteristics of democracy which belong to our heritage and which, if not emphasized, may be accepted with indifference and treated with negligence.  This indifference and ignorance will make our children easy victims of minority groups who assail the realistic weaknesses of our democratic institutions and exalt the idealistic virtues of other ways of life which are glamorous because they are distant.

This series of books starts simple like Dick and Jane books promoting family, courage, honesty, etc..  It advances to our history and the how bad things were before we had protected rights and political power.  It goes on to explain not all countries have advanced as ours, and clearly uses Germany as an example of where people do not have lives as good as ours.   Such books were not written just for children.  There were also adult versions.  Media was used to get us on the same page about what our national values are and why they must be defended.  This does not necessarily mean going to war.  The focus is defending these values at home and boy or boy could we use this education now!  However, the secondary effect was willingness to fight in foreign wars for our values and a democracy we understood, much better than we seem to understand our democracy today.    

You said "And yet there is such a division between moderates and radicals (on either end of the spectrum), despite them coming from the same schools.  Perhaps the schools are not as influential after all??"

And I am jumping up and down and yelling "yes, yes, you are right".  That is why I write about democracy and education.  Jefferson understood the problem back in his day and devoted himself to promoting public education for everyone as the way to have liberty and a strong and united republic.
At the 1917 National Education Association, one speaker after another made it clear, the strength of our national and liberty depends on education for our national values.   That is something we stopped doing almost completely  in 1958 when we began educating for a technological society with unknown values.  

You are right to say churches have been a powerful force and I will add to this, Germany was a Christian republic not so different from our own.  Education for technology for military and industrial purpose, and leaving moral training to the church, has ramifications and we are seeing them now.  The education we had before 1958 manifested a very different social, economic and political reality.  That is why I write.   It is interesting that we think democracy is Christian.  No one saw democracy in the bible until there was literacy in Greek and Roman classics, and that is we need to study if we want a strong democracy, not the bible.  Christianity was a still is a serous problem to democracy.  I will gladly argue this point using arguments made in a book written by a Christian woman about the National Education Association demonizing teachers for there lack of morals, and greed for money and power.  

The God of Abraham people include Jews, Christians and Muslims.  These people share the same creation story and other old testaments stories and the prophets.  The religions do not work well with democracy unless there is also education for democracy.  On the other hand, war is good for religion and religion is good for war and these people have been warriors, especially the Muslims and Christians.  They tend to be hawks and as accepting as human suffering as Hindus.  Such religion does not bring us to the science and technological advancements have raised the human potential but actually stands in the way the education that has overcome evils and the matter was made worse when we ended education for good moral judgment and left that to the church!  Shocked  Now we do not know what reason has to do with moral judgment and what that has to do with our liberty, and why education for that is so important and you are right about Texas's power in the publication of textbooks, but a supreme court ruled Creationism is not science and does not belong in science books.   
I have a notion of God and I am passionate about morality and understand it is essential to our liberty, and I am not a religious person.   Do any of the religions respect that?  I can not image how we would have a problem with religion if they all respected the beliefs of others.  The religions did not bring us peace.  Democracy did.  Until reading the book I just I bought, written by a Christian woman, I would not have spoken so boldly about the problem of religion, but she is a hawk and she defends segregation and inequality.  I have seen religion as a problem for many years, but my objections to it were not as firmly validated as they are now thanks a Christian's attacks on the National Education Association, and inadvertently attacks on our democratic values.

If you rather I stop posting in the forums because of my stand on religion, I will respect that.  But I will not join the Christians in a war against Muslims, nor support our aid to Israel at the expense of the Palestinians.  Nor agree to not teaching the young the high order thinking skills, and teaching them religious mythology in place of science.  


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 02:18
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Athena said [qoute]"What does that have to do with NAZI and Anti-NAZI folks?  We need a sense of meaning and social esteem.   We need to belong to social groups and to feel important.  Education manifest a society that does this very well, or does not.  Prussians applied military bureaucracy to citizens, and we adopt that, so now we have a government we can rely on, and our social organizations are behaving like thugs destroying instead of working together to improve the community.  We have had the same education that manifested the thugs that filled the NAZI ranks and being just like them but opposing them, is not really being different is it?    Yes, the ANTIFA came from the same schools.
"
Post WW1 the Germans were looking for a national identity. Germany never accepted the validity of the treaty of Versailles, multiple regions agreed to some conditions, refusing others while most of the population is suicidal, they owe something like 16 billion in today's money for war damages. 

Alienation, despair, hunger and Hitler were able to fine tune the anxieties into rage and fire. Germany skipped the mass lone shooter step and went straight to thuggish domination and all the rest. Hitler mobilized an entire world war by lecturing and feeding into a terror that already existed. Terrifying.

Our schools produce mass shooters, the types that can kill a group of 20+ five year old kids. Even the Nazis worried about the effects of troops seeing and participating in repetitive violent acts. They didn't want to win the war only to have a country full of psycho killers. They already knew what repeated killing does to a human being's psyche whether you feel justified in killing or not. 

That's why they started the camps for gassing people, death at a distance with no single responsible hand to bear all the guilt. And to spare them watching women, children and old people killed for no reason. No honor for the German heroes in that killing, Valkyries don't come for the devil. 

No we in US did not have the same education as those who filled the Nazi ranks, not the life situation and not a 70 year old curriculum.
[/QUOTE]

Well things are not going as well as I thought.  This is your forum and I am the new comer.  I think I should withdrew.  I apologize for disrupting your forum, but education for technology for military and industrial purpose, is not the education we had before 1958, and I don't want to argue about that and the religious issues with someone I like are respect.  That would be bad manners.  Besides, facts don't really matter when emotions are bad because it is the emotions that will rule, not reason. 


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 02:51
Athena,
Have you had a lifetime of people agreeing with you? I don't know anyone who has.
We disagree here but no one is asking or expecting you believe in religion or creationism. This is point, counter point. we do discuss current affairs it's relevant to historical trends, politics, wars etc.

I think you are very likable yourself but that won't keep me from opening my big mouth!Wink

No dispute about the change in education under LBJ, I can obviously produce the posting to prove it.

It's a BIG subject, you said so Smile it can take however long it takes to exhaust our interest. We show restraint but you also could restrain your compulsion to be repulsed by other opinions. 

Religion for me has been a long strange trip and you haven't heard the half of it, some of the things you have mentioned are modern politically motivated myth or I perceive them as such so you have been challenged a bit and you challenged us. I see no problem here at all.
You should stay. And choose a quote Tongue !


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 12:12
Many "primitive" tribes have had a form of democracy all of their lives.

They certainly are/were educated in their particular surroundings, but not educated to what we call our standards.

From this, I submit that education and democracy are entwined in some societies, otherwise how would you describe those modern states, with a more than reasonable level of education, which are not democrasies?


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“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 12:33
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Many "primitive" tribes have had a form of democracy all of their lives.

They certainly are/were educated in their particular surroundings, but not educated to what we call our standards.

From this, I submit that education and democracy are entwined in some societies, otherwise how would you describe those modern states, with a more than reasonable level of education, which are not democrasies?
Hi toyomotor, do the nationalist of a given country usually share a common religious upbringing? 

Even as there are multiple religions sharing neighborhoods, generally the founding principles of a nation are in agreement with the same religious ideology of the oldest belief systems.

Athena, isn't this your boy de Tocqueville? 
http://https://www.dailysignal.com/2016/04/22/how-christianity-helped-create-our-american-democracy/ - http://https://www.dailysignal.com/2016/04/22/how-christianity-helped-create-our-american-democracy/

Alexis de Tocqueville, in his masterful work, “Democracy in America,” taught that religion is necessary for a healthy political order. As I argue  http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2016/03/tocqueville-on-christianity-and-american-democracy - at greater length in a new First Principles essay , American democracy, according to Tocqueville, owes both its origins and its preservation to Christianity. He thought religion “should be considered the first” of America’s “political institutions.”

http://twitter.com/intent/tweet?text=By%20teaching%20the%20equality%20of%20all%20men%20before%20God,%20Christianity%20laid%20the%20groundwork%20for%20the%20rise%20of%20a%20belief%20in%20equality%20of%20all%20before%20the%20law.%20undefined -

By teaching the equality of all men before God, Christianity laid the groundwork for the rise of a belief in equality of all before the law.

Tocqueville observed that the modern impulse toward democracy and belief in equality emerged first and made great progress in the Christian nations of Europe. This was no accident: By teaching the equality of all men before God, Christianity laid the groundwork for the rise of a belief in equality of all before the law.

Christianity also played a key role in fostering the growth of democratic self-government in America. The tone of American political life was set by the Puritan settlers of New England. These pilgrims came to America in order to live out their religious beliefs in communities of their own creation. They governed their churches democratically, and by so doing they developed the expectation that they would settle political questions democratically, forming as well the habits of participation by which they could do so.

The liberal Left continue to push their radical agenda against American values. The good news is there is a solution.  https://www.dailysignal.com/2016/04/22/how-christianity-helped-create-our-american-democracy/#dear_reader - Find out more >>

Nevertheless, Tocqueville did not treat American Christianity as if it were a mere relic of the past, necessary to institute American democracy but to be discarded after it had performed this useful political task.

On the contrary, he held that the spirit of Christianity helped American democracy to continue to flourish even after it had been established. For Tocqueville, political freedom requires an unshakeable moral foundation that only religion can supply.



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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 13:50
So primitive societies have written constitutions, and written laws with rule by law and juries rather than kings or chiefs?  I do not think so.

Athena, My academic background is in philosophy and Classics.  So, I am very fond of Classical literature and culture.  But, in the Roman Empire, philosophy was really for the elite.  Some people however, got moral education not from Greek philosophy, but from Jewish synagogues.  These people were pagans, but were called "God fearers."  These "God fearers" provided some of the early gentile Christians to which Paul appealed.  One of the early characteristics that first appealed to early Christians, and have ever since, is a kind of moral education.  By "moral education" I mean education into the mores of society, the rules and conventions of society.  Again, philosophy is great, but I believe that for a popular education for the everyday individual, religion has traditionally given us a moral grounding.  People, particularly the new atheists, think we can do without.  And on an individual basis, we can, although I think people are borrowing a lot of inertia from the previous paradigm, so to speak.

I find it interesting that Classicists tend to ignore ancient Judaism, and other cultures.  Some scholars, however, are reaching out, and showing how Greece (and Rome) was not so separate from the other parts of the ancient world.  Don't get me wrong, I understand why such a division is made.  To a certain extent it is practical, but also Hellenophiles like to show how unique the Greeks were, which they were, but not completely.  For example, Walter Burkert looked at the influences between Greece and Babylon, Sardis and Memphis.  But, yes Judeo-Christian is very different from Greco-Roman, although they were in a way in the same universe.

I think that Christianity is in a way foundational for American democracy.  Problem is, if you dig up the foundations of building, it will collapse, so let's leave the foundation alone and go on to other things, or rather back to the issue of democracy and education.  
Of course, we might not have one level of foundation, I would say Western Civ is founded on the twin pillars of Greco-Roman, and Judeo-Christian culture as well.  Not that I am adverse to occasionally borrowing from elsewhere.




Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 21:47
Quote World War II did not start in 1941, and so yes we were building to that conclusion before then, but I think that we didn't really mobilize or industrialize for war until after Pearl Harbor December 7th, 1941.
The US was well aware of the possibility of hostilities with Japan but the idea of being unprepared was not well received (qv the Billy Mitchell trial for instance). America was determined to avoid entanglements in Europe but military sales to Britain and France were allowed past the Neutrality Act by Roosevelt who spoke out and said "Let America be the arsenal of democracy". It isn't generally realised that US warships were escorting early merchant convoys across the Atlantic as far as Iceland until Germany declared war in 1942.


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http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 23 Jul 2019 at 02:49
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

So primitive societies have written constitutions, and written laws with rule by law and juries rather than kings or chiefs?  I do not think so.

franciscosan, who are you addressing?Approve


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 23 Jul 2019 at 03:21
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Many "primitive" tribes have had a form of democracy all of their lives.

They certainly are/were educated in their particular surroundings, but not educated to what we call our standards.

From this, I submit that education and democracy are entwined in some societies, otherwise how would you describe those modern states, with a more than reasonable level of education, which are not democrasies?
toyomotor, you know I love the Uncontacted Tribes Wink
Certainly every little tribesman has a relevant education. And they have a system for their idea of fairness even if they don't call it democracy or have a constitution written on banana leaf.

The Massai, Akka, Sambia tribes of Africa all use occasional male/female role reversal to experience the perspective of the other which promotes cooperation. And some tribes assume the care of one of the offspring of a neighboring tribe for limited times while entrusting one of their own to the other. 
This promotes peace and altruism. 




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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 23 Jul 2019 at 12:56
Did you know that the last Australian Aborigines to be contacted by whites only occurred in 1984?

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“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 23 Jul 2019 at 13:21
Vanuatu View Drop Down

I learned about hatred of the National Education Association only a week ago.  With you being one of the people who hates the National Education Education Association, I wonder how did you learn of it?

I am using this link to understand what you hate and stand against.   https://eagleforum.org/publications/psr/aug12.html - https://eagleforum.org/publications/psr/aug12.html

Does your position mean to you are in favor of racism, and other prejudices against people who are different, and oppose desegregation, efforts to end inequality, and are okay with neglecting the health needs of children and family problems that ruin children's futures?  Does your position mean you do not want children to learn of the rest of world, nor about environment and harm being done to people by unsafe mining and industrial practices.  Are you opposed to discussion of global warming in schools?  

Are you opposed to teaching children to be independent thinkers and learning the higher order thinking skills?  Are you opposed to schools teaching children values as they once did?  

Also I don't want to discuss religion with you if you are Christian.  I will answer any questions about non religious beliefs and my concerns about morality and what I think morality has to do with our liberty and democracy.  I am fine with discussing my beliefs, but I think it would be wrong of me to challenge your religious beliefs.   

Are you opposed to the United Nations and in favor of war?  Like there are two ways to resolve conflicts right, killing each other or reasoning until there is a consensus on the best reasoning.  Like do you hate the NEA's stand on peace not war?  

Even before the internet developed the forums we have today, I have been accustom to dealing with arguments opposing what I say.  I am on the side of Palestinians because of the relationships I built with Palestinians and a Muslim Egyptian back in the day, and people do not like what I have to say about the mid east conflicts or the Military Industrial Complex.  I am attacked repeatedly for what I say, but always those who argue against me impress me as ignorant people and so there is a chance information will change their mind.  You appear to be well informed and that is a whole different game.  Well informed have no reason to change what they believe and no good can come out of arguing with them.   I don't think either one of us will change our values, so it is probably a good idea to check how serious our differences are and for me to bow out of the forum if the differences are as bad as I think.    


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 23 Jul 2019 at 13:29
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Did you know that the last Australian Aborigines to be contacted by whites only occurred in 1984?

It's mind boggling toyomotor, you say the aborigines had never even seen the whites? Do you you know the are where this happened?-thanks 


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 23 Jul 2019 at 14:11
Originally posted by Athena Athena wrote:

Vanuatu View Drop Down

I learned about hatred of the National Education Association only a week ago.  With you being one of the people who hates the National Education Education Association, I wonder how did you learn of it?

I am using this link to understand what you hate and stand against.   https://eagleforum.org/publications/psr/aug12.html - https://eagleforum.org/publications/psr/aug12.html
Hi Athena, I looked at the link briefly and for now my answers will be brief bc it's late but I would like to hear your views, even in opposition to mine. NEA, nutshell- my mom wasn't a teacher but she did work in bilingual education and was in the teacher's union. She had many years of devoted service and basically got cast aside in a very disrespectful way with the union being the main thrust of that indignity. She was also a lifelong D., and politically active, Dad was a R. and it was a part of our family culture. 

Quote Does your position mean to you are in favor of racism, and other prejudices against people who are different, and oppose desegregation, efforts to end inequality, and are okay with neglecting the health needs of children and family problems that ruin children's futures?  Does your position mean you do not want children to learn of the rest of world, nor about environment and harm being done to people by unsafe mining and industrial practices.  Are you opposed to discussion of global warming in schools?
Very angry about no reparations for people who lived in the Jim Crow south. There are many of them who are still alive and deserve reparations and their dignity returned. Child development was my first career and I love Piaget, found your James to be enlightened and ahead of his time. Global Warming is a semantic sticking point bc it divides politically. I say call it "pollution" and responsible stewardship of our beautiful planet. The kids already know the polluting has to stop, they were born ready to clean up the mess that's been neglected too long.

Quote Are you opposed to teaching children to be independent thinkers and learning the higher order thinking skills?  Are you opposed to schools teaching children values as they once did?
Elementary schools should reflect the values of their community, good PTA's can be very effective and voters who create relationships with state Rep's get useful information on getting extra funding. 
Values like the Golden Rule? 

Quote Also I don't want to discuss religion with you if you are Christian.  I will answer any questions about non religious beliefs and my concerns about morality and what I think morality has to do with our liberty and democracy.  I am fine with discussing my beliefs, but I think it would be wrong of me to challenge your religious beliefs.
Not a problem. Respond to a thread if you are interested, I welcome challenges and no time now to get into "beliefs" but I'm sure it's not traditional lol. Tell us what you think about your soul and your ancestors we have an appetite for these discussions here.

Quote Are you opposed to the United Nations and in favor of war?  Like there are two ways to resolve conflicts right, killing each other or reasoning until there is a consensus on the best reasoning.  Like do you hate the NEA's stand on peace not war?
 
Eisenhower was right about MIC, he warned about unending war to line the pockets of defense contractors & others who get rich off war. I don't want to see anyone suffering.  

Quote Even before the internet developed the forums we have today, I have been accustom to dealing with arguments opposing what I say.  I am on the side of Palestinians because of the relationships I built with Palestinians and a Muslim Egyptian back in the day, and people do not like what I have to say about the mid east conflicts or the Military Industrial Complex.  I am attacked repeatedly for what I say, but always those who argue against me impress me as ignorant people and so there is a chance information will change their mind.  You appear to be well informed and that is a whole different game.  Well informed have no reason to change what they believe and no good can come out of arguing with them.   I don't think either one of us will change our values, so it is probably a good idea to check how serious our differences are and for me to bow out of the forum if the differences are as bad as I think.    
The situation with the Palestinians is heart wrenching and I support them as a people. They were made pawns of other nations. The West Bank was annexed to Jordan in 1948 but rather than creating a peaceful homeland, Palestinians were forced to live on a constant battlefield while anti-Israeli forces used Gaza to constantly attack Israel. It went that way until Jordan loses Gaza in 1967.
I support Israel  as a people it has very little to do with land, I like archaeology, ancient history and religious philosophy. Christian roots and the mysticism of the Kabbalah is real treasure, the poetry of the Muslim poet Rumi is light years ahead of our time. The art of Islamic Spain is some of the most exquisite in existence.
It's not so bad, we like you. Your a Good Writer Thumbs Up 


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 24 Jul 2019 at 12:39
Yes, this took place in Western Australia. Aboriginal "tribes" are usually small and often comprise members of the same family.

Apparently, some of the tribe were rounded up by whites and taken to a community where they settled, but some were overlooked, and it was an accidental meeting between the "Lost Tribe" and other members of the tribe which eventually led to them being brought into the community.

For many Aboriginals, the English language remains as a second language, and, conversing in their tribal language to the "Lost Tribe" were told about the new foods that would be available to them, and even that water came out of pipes. They found it unbelievable.

One member of the "Lost Tribe" couldn't settle in the community and returned to live in the desert. The remainder stayed in the community where they are still learning some of the White Fella ways.

The Australian Aborigines are recognised as being the last of the stone age people.

You might like to Google Australian Lost Tribes for some more detail.


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“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 24 Jul 2019 at 15:47
About primitive people having democracy and the aboriginal people of Australia-

Before civilizations, all relationships were informal and personal.  Writing and large masses of people leads to formal rules/laws and impersonal relationships.    

Religions including what we call mythologies can lead to authoritarianism that did not exist, without a notion of gods and people being favored by gods, justifying the division of rulers and their subjects.   Such a belief is not good for democracy.   

If I remember correctly Greek gods are about a family, not a God with the powers of a king ruling over subjects.  Hebrews held the notion that a God gave them leaders and this special connection with God is inherited.  Hebrews and Greeks had quite a war when the Greeks took over and did not respect the Hebrew line of inheritance when appointing people to positions in the government based on merit not heritage.   

The Disney movie Lion King is a good Christian movie that Patrick Henry and Ben Franklin might not appreciate.   While the native Americans they encountered had a federation and council of elders.  


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 24 Jul 2019 at 15:49
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Yes, this took place in Western Australia. Aboriginal "tribes" are usually small and often comprise members of the same family.

Apparently, some of the tribe were rounded up by whites and taken to a community where they settled, but some were overlooked, and it was an accidental meeting between the "Lost Tribe" and other members of the tribe which eventually led to them being brought into the community.

For many Aboriginals, the English language remains as a second language, and, conversing in their tribal language to the "Lost Tribe" were told about the new foods that would be available to them, and even that water came out of pipes. They found it unbelievable.

One member of the "Lost Tribe" couldn't settle in the community and returned to live in the desert. The remainder stayed in the community where they are still learning some of the White Fella ways.

The Australian Aborigines are recognised as being the last of the stone age people.

You might like to Google Australian Lost Tribes for some more detail.
Yes I'd like to see if anyone spoke to these individuals and whether they said anything about "Walkabout"
thanks!


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2019 at 00:31
What happens when invaders destroy the cultures of aborigine people is not only the destruction of their culture but also their identity and spirit.  The organization of relationships they had falls apart and life becomes pretty meaningless.  If alcohol is available it is abused and then the this to the abuse of others.  It is not a wonderful blessing for Christians to find these people and destroy their cultures.

I am not sure we should stop at seeing what happens to aborigine people, but should perhaps look at ourselves and study those who live in traditional families and those who do not.   How about we drop the religious stuff, and just be scientific about this.  Children who grow up in strong families that give them advantages will do better in life and their elderly are likely to live longer.   We can also observe this in the study of all social animals.  Our relationships and social order are very important.

Now shall get back on topic and compare Dick and Jane readers with Captain Underpants?   A problem I have with education since 1958 is the end of education for good moral judgment and educating for an amoral society with unknown values.  Let us reflect on the aborigine people and what happens to them when their culture is destroyed and their social ties are destroyed.  Forget the God who is going to punish us if we do not obey him, unless your understanding of God is nature.  Tao, when we go against nature bad things happen.  The morality of family order is vitally important because nature made us that way and all societies must have order.  Marriage and family gives our identity and gives society order.  Healthy families mean children and elderly people who do better.  

We make a huge stink over our freedom of religion and I think the NEA is wrong to think this means no standards for the books in their libraries.  Again, I will say look what happens to aborigine people when their culture is destroyed and at our social problems.  Should our text books and school libraries have no standards other then children will read socially inappropriate books they will not read the classics.  Ah, what is the value of education if does not improve the human condition, but actually serves to destroy our morality and lead us to an amoral society that reverts us back to animals living on feelings instead of on concepts essential to their good mental health and a civilization with liberty?     

I will say again, the Nazi and the ANTIFA have the same education for a technological society with unknown values.  Greek mythology is a better education.  Such mythology is about transitioning youth to adults.  Education for technology is preparing our young to be products for industry.  "I will smash your face if you oppose me".... congratulation USA, you have reverted our human progress back to the period of evolution when we first left the trees and began walking across the plains.  That mentality is good for gang warfare, but not civilization.   


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2019 at 01:26
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by Athena Athena wrote:

Vanuatu View Drop Down

Hi Athena, I looked at the link briefly and for now my answers will be brief bc it's late but I would like to hear your views, even in opposition to mine. NEA, nutshell- my mom wasn't a teacher but she did work in bilingual education and was in the teacher's union. She had many years of devoted service and basically got cast aside in a very disrespectful way with the union being the main thrust of that indignity. She was also a lifelong D., and politically active, Dad was a R. and it was a part of our family culture.

Education was radically changed in 1958 and social chaos followed.  I think some things needed to be changed but to think only good changes followed is a mistake.  

At the time of Dewey the NEA made a strong push to empower female teachers and students with a focus on democracy as a process of empowering all people to make their best contribution.  Females teachers were to have increasing control of the classroom, that had been denied by sexism and fear they would make males less masculine. 

I don't know when your mother was effectively demoted, but for sure the 1958 National Defense Education was one of those moments of change! Angry  The priorities of the NEA are changed by external forces.  I have read there is a movement to revert back to when your mother was valued in the classroom.  Our obsession with technology and technological "experts" is turning as the faults of this obsession are becoming obvious.  That is a return to authoritarianism.  My grandmother manage the 1958 change by finding a private school that maintained old values and respected her authority in her classroom.   

Quote Very angry about no reparations for people who lived in the Jim Crow south. There are many of them who are still alive and deserve reparations and their dignity returned. Child development was my first career and I love Piaget, found your James to be enlightened and ahead of his time. Global Warming is a semantic sticking point bc it divides politically. I say call it "pollution" and responsible stewardship of our beautiful planet. The kids already know the polluting has to stop, they were born ready to clean up the mess that's been neglected too long.

Germany has done a far better job of honoring the Jews who were horrible treated.  We would do well to follow the German example and to include native Americans as well as those we made slaves, and possibly some areas where Asians were killed or otherwise mistreated.  We could raise awareness of the mistreatment of women and children and even male labors in general and the progress of our democracy that has been made!  This is extremely problematic as the elderly White privileged folks would hate such a move and call it unAmerican and socialist of communist motivated.  I wish you could read the NEA book I am reading, because the NEA has fought to correct our past wrongs, and while I do not agree with all NEA actions, you have convinced me you are not one of the conservatives that opposes the NEA.   I would not return to this forum if you were one of those conservatives screaming about socialism, communism and being unAmerican.  However, we can look at what Germany did and we can mobilize social action to follow the German example of acknowledging what was done to the Jews or in the US all the people we have wronged.  Doing this with a focus on the progress humanity made because of our democracy, would be a very positive things!  

[quote]Not a problem. Respond to a thread if you are interested, I welcome challenges and no time now to get into "beliefs" but I'm sure it's not traditional lol. Tell us what you think about your soul and your ancestors we have an appetite for these discussions here. [quote]

I am perhaps more Tao or Buddhist or Hindu?  Such is not just a matter of the chatter in our heads.  It is very much about our feelings.  I love the science of morality and God.  I understand morality as a matter of cause and effect and I love what Cicero had to say about such things.  Only in ignorance do we do wrong, because most of have a conscience that eats at us when we know we have done wrong.  Nation the word conscience means "coming out of knowledge".  I think being literate in Greek and Latin is important.  Unfortunately I am not but I enjoy a dictionary that explains the origins of words and we can learn the concepts of logos and conscience and better understand democracy and morality!  Violating nature is immoral.     

[quote]
Eisenhower was right about MIC, he warned about unending war to line the pockets of defense contractors & others who get rich off war. I don't want to see anyone suffering. 
  

It is far more than this.  We are no longer are ordered by family order but military order applied to citizens.  It was not the gays who destroyed our families but the change in education and institutions.  I am running out of time.  This is a huge subject and needs to wait.   

I am glad we are talking again.  




Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2019 at 12:41
I am not sure what you mean about Germany supporting Jews, Europeans promote Jewish culture as a way to make up for what they did, but most of the actual people are dead or moved to the US or Israel.  Israel justifies its foundation because of the holocaust, in America, however, the Jewish community has not so much been distracted by cultural handouts, nor do they justify the holocaust through the foundation of Israel.
It used to be true that there were more Jews in American, than in Israel, I don't know if that is still true.  But, I think it is important to realize that a fair number of Jews recognize themselves as properly diasporic, and are uneasy about the legitimacy of the Jewish state.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2019 at 15:53
Originally posted by Athena Athena wrote:

It is not a wonderful blessing for Christians to find these people and destroy their cultures.
Nope. But an empty bowl needs to be filled. It's a little late in civilization to be worried about missionaries, remember- Christians being murdered all over the world, you have nothing to fear. 

Quote I will say again, the Nazi and the ANTIFA have the same education for a technological society with unknown values.
The Nazis and the ANTIFA are the same both fascists refusing to live peacefully.

Quote   Greek mythology is a better education.  Such mythology is about transitioning youth to adults.
Agrarian societies became more advanced, do you think we are going back to an agrarian society?
Quote   Education for technology is preparing our young to be products for industry.  "I will smash your face if you oppose me".... congratulation USA, you have reverted our human progress back to the period of evolution when we first left the trees and began walking across the plains.  That mentality is good for gang warfare, but not civilization.   
Smash a face like ANTIFA would ? Exactly who is part of the America that you want to blame for devolution? Not the rioters and fascists, oh no right it's the Christians out smashing faces. 

I'm glad we can spar a bit, could use more particulars regarding your argument asserting that public education is militarizing society.
Don't you think there are many factors contributing to social conditions? Media? World Politics? Pollution? 
Also just FYI elderly white people are being assaulted, robbed and murdered in higher numbers than any other group, assailants are overwhelmingly young men. So elderly whitey is getting his ass kicked and certainly he bares all the blame for society's ills. Want to take an honest look at the history of slavery some time? Let me know.
Maybe you should read the "Trump the Important Issues" or "Dump on Trump" two threads here that will leave no doubt as to what my views are. Also if you get pissed off, this is fine with me, you can vent, we can take it. Beer




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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2019 at 01:50
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by Athena Athena wrote:

franciscosan "I don't know what France was like in the 1800s, however, Simone Weil said that the French Revolution was a conservative revolution, not a liberal one.  It was at least initially not the intellectuals who took over but the mob, and the Terror."

People don't read long post and our post have been too long and complex and there isn't a strong interest in education so I am going to turn your question into its own thread.  I will also get the lectures about Utopia and Terror from the library.  I think it can be argued that Intellectuals did begin the revolution but the effort to make change spun out of control.  I vaguely remember France was having an economic problem and the king had to tax the elite and they refused to accept that.  Then things spun out of control.  
It was the King Louis XVI my friend Smile and his spendy wife. Remember?  
Massive debt bc of overspending? the peasants were already starving and then a bad harvest, bread gets too expensive and Marie Antoinette's hair just got bigger? 

The progressives began random massacres after starving and getting pumped up on reading George Danton pamphlets. 
The Intellectuals took sides after they saw what happened at the Bastille. The peasants roused a whopping 4 political prisoners you see, their crime? Existence! And then their heads were on pikes. 

There were multiple sects of revolutionaries and the counter revolutionaries were just as vicious. 
These are not just the poor and starving, add pimps, prostitutes, street gangs and thieves. 
(ANTIFA types or Black Lives Matter showing up in Ferguson, now it's a riot) 
So criminals started wearing colors of the sans culottes and went out slaughtering and robbing citizens.

Feel free to make an argument but the facts of the French Revolution and millions of documents don't support the contemporary need for political posturing and virtue signaling spin. 

The French Revolution began, and for its entire duration remained, soaked in innocent blood. Mob tyranny, popular mob “justice”, and widespread paranoia reigned from the moment the Bastille fell until the dawn of the Terror in fall 1793. Contrary to the self-serving and prevailing liberal historiography which dominated nineteenth century studies of the Revolution, which urged that the conflict be separated into a legitimate, ideal, more civilized “liberal” phase (1789-1793) and a tragically unintended, accidental “radical phase” (the Terror, fall 1793-summer 1794), in actuality a clear, uninterrupted, chronological line of popular violence unrestrained by the revolutionary leaders exists from 14 July 1789 onward. From the storming of the Bastille through the Great Fear, October Days, Champs de Mars massacre, and September Massacres, the Revolution – hardly restrained by the liberal Enlightenment ideals which purportedly united its adherents – saw thousands of people slaughtered without trial in the name of liberty.
When a political movement is soaked in blood from its very onset, it is insulting to basic intelligence to argue somehow that it was not violent from its foundation. Before the guillotine, the “national razor”, severed some 17,000 heads, long before the official start of the Terror, Parisian mobs massacred hundreds of royal guards who were simply doing their duty, slaughtered over 1,300 innocent civilians and clergy in Paris jails, and within four years of the Bastille’s storming (itself a violent event), the nascent Republic’s generals slaughtered approximately a quarter of a million people in three years’ time. The term “liberal revolution” with its conjuring of fidelity to restrained, rational liberal Enlightenment ideals is an ignorant misnomer at best and at worst a crass, deliberate fiction. The supreme irony is that from its foundations the Revolution’s radicals lauded the ideals of liberty and universal justice while never consistently abiding by them; decrying the supposed tyranny of an ancien regime that brutally tortured and executed a handful of would-be-regicides and murderers over several centuries, the radical revolutionaries bathed the infant Republic in blood, slaughtering some 250,000 Catholic Frenchmen and women in three years in the name of liberty and justice.
-ryan phunter -wordpress the french revolution, violent from inception


I am not that familiar with the French Revolution, except the French debt had built up over a long time before  King Louis XVI.   France was in big trouble long before King Louis XVI.  One European war after another.  We have to look at that history and think it incredibility stupid and then we realize all the wars we have been in since WWII and our debt. Are we being as stupid as those people in history?  Shocked


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2019 at 02:29
Quote
I am not that familiar with the French Revolution, except the French debt had built up over a long time before  King Louis XVI.   France was in big trouble long before King Louis XVI.  One European war after another.  We have to look at that history and think it incredibility stupid and then we realize all the wars we have been in since WWII and our debt. Are we being as stupid as those people in history?  Shocked
Sometimes it makes us cringe but "judgement" isn't really possible unless you understand the total gestalt that allowed certain events to happen. We are not stupid, we are evolving.


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2019 at 03:06
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Nope. But an empty bowl needs to be filled. It's a little late in civilization to be worried about missionaries, remember- Christians being murdered all over the world, you have nothing to fear.

I think good world politics are pretty simple.  Just think of each country as someone's home and how we should behave.  Do not enter without being invited in.  You are a guest in that home.  Do not attempt to force your ways on others, and the respect your host and hostess and their ways or leave.  

Quote The Nazis and the ANTIFA are the same both fascists refusing to live peacefully.
  I think we should keep in mind our congress and industrial leaders who are not behaving any better, they dress better and have more money and use the power of the media or the law as their weapons of gang fights.

Quote   Agrarian societies became more advanced, do you think we are going back to an agrarian society?

The importance of Greek mythology and philosophy is it was urban.  Homer's books were like their bible and that was not a book about farmers.  Following the war with Persia their mythology went through a huge change.  Before the war the most powerful got the land, the plunder, and anything else they wanted, and the peasants were at their mercy.  However, the war demanded everyone's help and to keep them from fleeing the city as was their custom, they were promised a say in government if they manned the ships and help fight the war.  This radically changed the role Athena was to play in their culture.

The Persians had destroyed her temple and the people were afraid if she was not appeased their crops would fail and they would starve.  They were not a strong trading nation at this time and they depended on their goddess.  That helped make them willing to fight for her.  When her temple was rebuilt, it was used to explain democracy.  Apollo was born the god of creativity and reason.  It was said the gods would argue until there was a consensus on the best reasoning.  Athena became the goddess the who taught men to rule themselves.  

What is important in this education is like Christianity, teaching people how to live and teaching them values and eventually teaching them to reason through their conflicts instead of having physical fights.  It is the language, concepts, stories of being civilized.  Humans must have this education and the mess we are in today is the result of the 1958 change in education and leaving moral to the church.

However, once Athens was well established and they began colonizing the surrounding area, their education shifted to technological correctness.  Big smile  Instead of a land of individual creativity and genius they became a bureaucratic beast assimilating everyone and spreading like a giant amoeba.   They did this in about the same time line as the US for the same reason the US has education for technology.  Clown  Now we have technology but not the wisdom to use it, as Zeus feared.  

Quote Smash a face like ANTIFA would ? Exactly who is part of the America that you want to blame for devolution? Not the rioters and fascists, oh no right it's the Christians out smashing faces.

Do we want to be a civilization for human beings reaching for our human potential, or the most powerful beast on earth?  This is about the human experience.  The Military Industrial Complex is a beast such as the beast in the bible.  It reduces to ants of worms.  It is not the individual freedom and human dignity we once defended in our schools and in war.  Heart  I love you for comments that brought me back to what makes my heart strong instead of Broken Heart broken.   

Quote I'm glad we can spar a bit, could use more particulars regarding your argument asserting that public education is militarizing society.
Don't you think there are many factors contributing to social conditions? Media? World Politics? Pollution? 

Pinch  Thank you for carrying this discussion along far enough to pull out the important points.  God, I don't know how to start the discussion so others will stop jumping to conclusion and arguing everyone point in such a way that I can never expand their understanding of the subject.  Please, if you can suggest how to go about this better, do!   I am dying with frustration!  I am sure I would get a lot of agreement if I could explain everything in one paragraph in such away everyone knew what I was saying, instead of them becoming reactionary and preventing any progress.  

I scream about Christianity because everyone thinks that is what made us civilized and caused this wonderful growth of human knowledge and potential and that is a false myth!!! If we want to see the fruits of Christianity look at the witch hunts and the starvation and the wars of Europe.  It was not Christianity that got us to where we are today, but the Greek and Rome classics.   The morality of the bible sucks as it is superstitious and ignorant, and even advances this with fear of knowledge and Satan.  It has brought us to wars, ignorance, the destruction of medical knowledge and therefore a lot of human suffering and short life spans, exploitation of humans and exploitation of the planet.  I am so sorry if these words offend Christians, and I hate saying such things, but Cry  Education for technology is fine for slaves but it is not the education human beings need to be better human beings, and the bible is not exactly the best mythology.   If Christians had literacy in Greek and Roman classics, the problem would not be so bad, but with education restricted to education for technology, they are a huge problem!   Our democracy is weak and sick with a population that thinks their religion is the most important and cause of all good.    Please, the bible is a book of kings and slaves, not a book for democracy and human dignity and respect of all people around the world.  


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2019 at 03:26
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Yes, this took place in Western Australia. Aboriginal "tribes" are usually small and often comprise members of the same family.

Apparently, some of the tribe were rounded up by whites and taken to a community where they settled, but some were overlooked, and it was an accidental meeting between the "Lost Tribe" and other members of the tribe which eventually led to them being brought into the community.

For many Aboriginals, the English language remains as a second language, and, conversing in their tribal language to the "Lost Tribe" were told about the new foods that would be available to them, and even that water came out of pipes. They found it unbelievable.

One member of the "Lost Tribe" couldn't settle in the community and returned to live in the desert. The remainder stayed in the community where they are still learning some of the White Fella ways.

The Australian Aborigines are recognised as being the last of the stone age people.

You might like to Google Australian Lost Tribes for some more detail.
toyomotor, thanks so very much!
I did find a webpage of a poet who knows the children of Papunya. I read my first Walkabout today and I could have cried, I've looked all over for this kind of song and you gave a me a much desired gift.
You both Rock & Roll  Beer
http://billystoneking.blogspot.com/2011/02/power-of-song.html - http://billystoneking.blogspot.com/2011/02/power-of-song.html


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2019 at 04:34
Originally posted by Athena Athena wrote:


I think good world politics are pretty simple.  Just think of each country as someone's home and how we should behave.  Do not enter without being invited in.  You are a guest in that home.  Do not attempt to force your ways on others, and the respect your host and hostess and their ways or leave. 
That's the only way it should be and every individual is responsible for their own advance to this kind of realization. 

Quote The Nazis and the ANTIFA are the same both fascists refusing to live peacefully.
  I think we should keep in mind our congress and industrial leaders who are not behaving any better, they dress better and have more money and use the power of the media or the law as their weapons of gang fights.[/quote]
I blame those politicians more than any other segment of the population with Hollywood a close second. They are figuratively punching our faces and diddling our privates.

Quote  
The importance of Greek mythology and philosophy is it was urban.  Homer's books were like their bible and that was not a book about farmers.
 
Hmm, not sure there, farming is pretty important. I see the Christian Bible as a derivative of the history of "people of the book" Jews, Christians, Muslims in order of appearance.
 franciscosan has pointed this out in other posts,their histories are intertwined.
The Bible at least the first five books was also influenced by existing ideas of ancient world, that is,
it has it's own wisdom. The Greeks didn't pull all this wisdom out of the air, the Etruscans predate Greek civilization and common themes abound in the art and the writing. 
Quote
The Persians had destroyed her temple and the people were afraid if she was not appeased their crops would fail and they would starve.  They were not a strong trading nation at this time and they depended on their goddess.  That helped make them willing to fight for her.  When her temple was rebuilt, it was used to explain democracy.  Apollo was born the god of creativity and reason.  It was said the gods would argue until there was a consensus on the best reasoning.  Athena became the goddess the who taught men to rule themselves.
 
Agree, certainly producing enough food was elemental to survival. Osiris became an agricultural figure when the Egyptians were growing into an empire. Working the fields was short agonizing life, so Athena/Osiris needed to be there to encourage workers
[/quote]
Quote
What is important in this education is like Christianity, teaching people how to live and teaching them values and eventually teaching them to reason through their conflicts instead of having physical fights.  It is the language, concepts, stories of being civilized.  Humans must have this education and the mess we are in today is the result of the 1958 change in education and leaving moral to the church.
Like the Golden Rule? Very simple, universal and easy to remember. 
Quote
However, once Athens was well established and they began colonizing the surrounding area, their education shifted to technological correctness.  Big smile  Instead of a land of individual creativity and genius they became a bureaucratic beast assimilating everyone and spreading like a giant amoeba.   They did this in about the same time line as the US for the same reason the US has education for technology.  Clown  Now we have technology but not the wisdom to use it, as Zeus feared. 
Agree

Quote Smash a face like ANTIFA would ? Exactly who is part of the America that you want to blame for devolution? Not the rioters and fascists, oh no right it's the Christians out smashing faces.
Quote
Do we want to be a civilization for human beings reaching for our human potential, or the most powerful beast on earth?  This is about the human experience.  The Military Industrial Complex is a beast such as the beast in the bible.  It reduces to ants of worms.  It is not the individual freedom and human dignity we once defended in our schools and in war.  Heart  I love you for comments that brought me back to what makes my heart strong instead of Broken Heart broken. 
Thanks, right back at you, I think most of us want to be at peace.Heart

Quote I'm glad we can spar a bit, could use more particulars regarding your argument asserting that public education is militarizing society.
Don't you think there are many factors contributing to social conditions? Media? World Politics? Pollution? 
Quote

Pinch  Thank you for carrying this discussion along far enough to pull out the important points.  God, I don't know how to start the discussion so others will stop jumping to conclusion and arguing everyone point in such a way that I can never expand their understanding of the subject.  Please, if you can suggest how to go about this better, do!   I am dying with frustration!  I am sure I would get a lot of agreement if I could explain everything in one paragraph in such away everyone knew what I was saying, instead of them becoming reactionary and preventing any progress. 

You have time, it's a war of attrition. Points made in multiple posts stand a better chance of being fully explored. Laying out an entire theory is tricky bc the devil is always in the details. Aim at the details most relevant to your argument and just keep swimming.Tongue
Quote
I scream about Christianity because everyone thinks that is what made us civilized and caused this wonderful growth of human knowledge and potential and that is a false myth!!! If we want to see the fruits of Christianity look at the witch hunts and the starvation and the wars of Europe.  It was not Christianity that got us to where we are today, but the Greek and Rome classics.   The morality of the bible sucks as it is superstitious and ignorant, and even advances this with fear of knowledge and Satan. 
 
In fact Satan is an artist's invention from about 450 CE, you won't find Satan in the original biblical texts. It's been a bloodbath no doubt and no argument. Who is doing the killing now? 
Quote
It has brought us to wars, ignorance, the destruction of medical knowledge and therefore a lot of human suffering and short life spans, exploitation of humans and exploitation of the planet.  I am so sorry if these words offend Christians, and I hate saying such things, but Cry  Education for technology is fine for slaves but it is not the education human beings need to be better human beings, and the bible is not exactly the best mythology.
Can't say I agree here, it's a tremendous mythology, endlessly fascinating IMO. Christians won't be offended by your words, they are sad about the state of the world as well. And feeding people isn't always a trade off for conversion. I grew up in the culture and I'm telling you everyday people want to help others.

Quote If Cris
If Cristians had literacy in Greek and Roman classics, the problem would not be so bad, but with education restricted to education for technology, they are a huge problem!   Our democracy is weak and sick with a population that thinks their religion is the most important and cause of all good.    Please, the bible is a book of kings and slaves, not a book for democracy and human dignity and respect of all people around the world.  
Cadrail mentions recently in "Noahs ark revisited" fransciscosan's thread, that the life of Jesus bears uncanny resemblance to life of Osiris, Dionysus and others. The themes are very similar and rare,
learned people of the time would be familiar with universal symbology used to signify the great or god like people. You may also find at some point in the future that many Christians love to read about all aspects of the ancient world. 


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2019 at 14:19
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

So primitive societies have written constitutions, and written laws with rule by law and juries rather than kings or chiefs?  I do not think so.

Athena, My academic background is in philosophy and Classics.  So, I am very fond of Classical literature and culture.  But, in the Roman Empire, philosophy was really for the elite.  Some people however, got moral education not from Greek philosophy, but from Jewish synagogues.  These people were pagans, but were called "God fearers."  These "God fearers" provided some of the early gentile Christians to which Paul appealed.  One of the early characteristics that first appealed to early Christians, and have ever since, is a kind of moral education.  By "moral education" I mean education into the mores of society, the rules and conventions of society.  Again, philosophy is great, but I believe that for a popular education for the everyday individual, religion has traditionally given us a moral grounding.  People, particularly the new atheists, think we can do without.  And on an individual basis, we can, although I think people are borrowing a lot of inertia from the previous paradigm, so to speak.

I find it interesting that Classicists tend to ignore ancient Judaism, and other cultures.  Some scholars, however, are reaching out, and showing how Greece (and Rome) was not so separate from the other parts of the ancient world.  Don't get me wrong, I understand why such a division is made.  To a certain extent it is practical, but also Hellenophiles like to show how unique the Greeks were, which they were, but not completely.  For example, Walter Burkert looked at the influences between Greece and Babylon, Sardis and Memphis.  But, yes Judeo-Christian is very different from Greco-Roman, although they were in a way in the same universe.

I think that Christianity is in a way foundational for American democracy.  Problem is, if you dig up the foundations of building, it will collapse, so let's leave the foundation alone and go on to other things, or rather back to the issue of democracy and education.  
Of course, we might not have one level of foundation, I would say Western Civ is founded on the twin pillars of Greco-Roman, and Judeo-Christian culture as well.  Not that I am adverse to occasionally borrowing from elsewhere.



I believe Christianity is Hellenized Judaism.  Much of the worst Christian fighting, Christian against Christian was the result of different Greek and Roman concepts and the Romans not having a word that could translate to one god having three aspects, father, son and holy ghost.  So Christians who wanted to hold to there being only one god were fighting with those who argued Jesus was the son of God not God.  

For absolute sure, the Egyptian religious concepts played a very important role in the development of Christianity, with one major difference.   Egyptians had a trinity of the soul and Christians have a trinity of God.  That is the difference of God being internal or external which is along the lines of arguing if God, father, son and holy ghost are three gods or one.  

With the trinity of the soul, one part of this trinity dies with the body.  The second part is judged and goes on to the good life or not, depending on the weight of the heart.  The third part always returns to the source.  I find this quit acceptable and I like it better than a trinity of God that is all external and separate from our human being.  I do not comprehend the Christian notion of the soul, if it is not the Egyptian trinity of our spiritual being.  

Isis was the bread and water long before Jesus became the bread and wine and it was Isis to judged us when we died.  The water become wine with Jesus because it is the color of blood, and the alcohol is associated with spirits, and Christians with a cannibalistic notion ate of the body of Christ and drank of his blood. Terrifying Romans who didn't understand the symbology.   And later to become a point of contention when Protestants and Catholics got into a power struggle and it was argued by Protestants that priest couldn't make the waver and wine magically filled with the qualities of the supernatural.  

And this discussion must include Mithraism a favorite Persian religion of Roman soldiers with a mythology almost identical to the Christian mythology.   https://www.britannica.com/topic/Mithraism - https://www.britannica.com/topic/Mithraism
and for sure   Zoroastrianism which followed Mithraism had a strong influence on Hebrews and Christianity, especially the division of good and evil that was not so pronounced in Hebrew faith as it is in Christianity, with the demonology of the East influencing Christians more strongly.  

This is just too much fun to not share and it is my understanding small quotes can be used.  I am sorry if I misunderstand the legality and rules of this. I am bringing this up because nothing is believable unless the concepts are familar and eating the body of Christ and drinking his blood for spiritual reasons comes before Jesus and the "word of God".  This also goes with crucifixion of the sun in heaven because it is about astrology.  It is Mithra ritual.    

Quote The divine meal is more frequently portrayed than any other scene except the bull slaying. Besides bull meat, other animals were used, or bread and fish were used as substitutes for meat, and wine for blood. This was their Eucharist! They believed that by eating the bull's flesh and drinking its blood they would be "born again" just as life itself had once been created from the bull's blood. It was believed that the partaking of the Eucharistic sacrament ensured Eternal Life, the immediate passing after death, to the bosom of Mithra, there to tarry in bliss until the judgment.
http://www.paganizingfaithofyeshua.freeservers.com/mithraism_astrotheology_similarity_cx.htm - http://www.paganizingfaithofyeshua.freeservers.com/mithraism_astrotheology_similarity_cx.htm









Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2019 at 03:01
Thanks Athena, I like the way that you laid out the progression of symbolism overtime and civilizations. 
For myself finding more connections cast any differences into the realm of cultural adaptation.

The ritual of the bull is fascinating, you also find it in the Celtic legends with the attributes of fertility, the Sun and wealth. Rituals associated with Celts/Druids involved the king consuming the power of the animal.
In a large cast pot a butchered bull is cooked. Then the king immerses himself,eats all the meat and drinks all the broth.
The Jews assign the attribute of Harmony to "Kether" bc the constellation Taurus was in the sun during the Exodus. This put distance between the Jews and the Egyptian worship of the golden calf. "Kether" has male and female attributes, it means "Crown" suggesting the highest authority of man.

(*the bull in the Sephiroth,[Kabballah Tree] looks a bit like the fallopian tubes and ovaries, many cultures name the cow as the first animal created and she brought forth the Milky Way. 
*correction, "Aleph" is the Bull



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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2019 at 15:34
Oh really the bull market is Celtic?  Big smile  Would you please move your bull information to a thread for bulls?  I think there is a lot to be said about bulls in history and mythology and it might be more comprehensive if we put it all together in one thread.  I have a problem with getting pictures into my post but pictures to go with the history and cultures would make it really nice.  

Oh, oh you know of Jung and the notion that our symbolism is universal like on a consciousness realm beyond our mundane awareness?  Joseph Campbell picked up where Jung left off and became the guru of mythology.  I like his notion that God speaks to everyone but each culture comes the awareness through its own culture so the general meaning is there, but the exact story may be told a little differently.   I have read Christianity was accepted by many cultures because the mythology of Christianity is not so different from other mythologies.  

Back to the subject of education, I don't think it would be appreciated if schools were to teach the similarities of mythologies and why Christianity was acceptable to others.  I have a friend who is very upset that some schools introduce students to Qu'ran but Before Mohammed had someone write the holy book, his people were living with Jews and Christians and their mythologies are fundamental to  Islam.  For awhile Hebrews improved on their stories and at least five of them appear to be Sumerian stories of many gods and adjusted to fit the notion of one God which appears to have begun in Egypt.  But the Hellenized Jews put their twist on the story, then the Arabs put their twist on the stories.  And the Baha'i adopted all religions including Christianity.   However, it would be a very unusual community that had a high school class for learning of this.   However, I think many students would be fascinated and that it could benefit world peace.  

That is what a conservative would call an extreme leftist point of view and it is a basic conflict between Christians and non Christians or liberal Christians.  I am not sure how to address this conflict in such a way all would be agreeable to an expanded knowledge of such matters.   


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 27 Jul 2019 at 16:04
You are to blame for all the bull Wink
You can't start talking Mithras without bringing up the Bull,lol  if you start talking symbols I'm going to wander.
Understanding Iconic symbolism only enhances education. Think of the benefit to learning history, languages and of course classic literature. I will remove it if you insist but I don't see how it detracts from your subject.


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2019 at 04:30
Start another thread on the bull, if you haven't already and I'll contribute to it.  The "Apollonian" Apollo really comes in with Pindar, the Theban poet.  Before that Apollo was a more martial god, see Iliad for example, or even a chthonic god, Apollo Oulios.  Also, Homer is not agrarian, but Hesiod, with the 'Works and Days' is.  Hesiod was traditionally thought superior to Homer, as peace was to war.  "Homer" is the oldest of Greek literature, although since he comes out of an oral tradition, that might make it difficult to date him.  Hesiod is next oldest, and Pindar is the next oldest after Hesiod, as far as complete works we have.  That is not to say we don't have fragments older than Pindar, basically quotes, some substantial, that are preserved in other works.

Themistocles is an amazing Athenian leader, basically he was responsible for the shift in Athens, away from an aristocratic (oligarchic) calvary of elites, and an army of citizen hoplites to a fleet where the individual citizens became more important as those who crewed the triremes.  He was instrumental in creating the Athenian major portion of the fleet that defeated the Persians at Salamis.  He later got caught up in scandals (real or perceived), and eventually went over to Persia becoming a local ruler, they appreciated a good man, unlike Athens. 


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 07:10
Quote Ok well then here you must explain how a government bureaucracy and the manner of humans since recorded history differ in grooming their young for war or work.

I think I missed this statement or that my reply didn't get much attention and it is vitally important.  We are training people to do particular work, rather than to be civic and industrial leaders.  That means only the privileged who are prepared by their families and private schools or the best colleges like Yale and Harvard are prepared to run our world for us.  The rest of us are prepared to follow orders and depend on the leaders who make the real decisions.  Not only we are prepared as slaves to do the work, but merit hiring is authoritarian and only those who come up through the system can rise.   Useless you are a politician.  Shocked  Our votes are almost 100% based on if we like a candidate.  We do not have a good merit system for determining who will represent us in public office.    

That leads to reactionary politics that appeal to our emotions, not our ability to reason.   This is a serious political problem and a human experience problem.  I have not developed these thoughts enough to properly express them, but Tocqueville had much to say of this in his 1830 book "Democracy in America".  

I have really mixed feelings about this.  Part of me would love to live in the days of pharaohs and to love my pharaoh as a god.  To be perfectly content with my lot in life and feel free of all responsibility because it is the pharaohs job to care for us, and we just do what it is our lot in life to do.  Tocqueville speaks of this as living under despotism.   But our Declaration of Independence could be called a Declaration of Responsibility.  For most of history our fate was determined by our birth, not by our individual effort.  But to be born in the US to be born responsible and to participate in meeting community needs, economic and political matters.   We are to educate ourselves, and that did not mean huge college loans and a formal education.  It meant as citizens we read pamphlets, newspapers, and books and educated ourselves, and employers accepted this.  We could return to our golden age if we demanded the democratic model for industry, but before that can happen, we need to understand we have a problem and there is a solution.  


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 08:06
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

You are to blame for all the bull Wink
You can't start talking Mithras without bringing up the Bull,lol  if you start talking symbols I'm going to wander.
Understanding Iconic symbolism only enhances education. Think of the benefit to learning history, languages and of course classic literature. I will remove it if you insist but I don't see how it detracts from your subject.

LOL  Now you went and warped my brain.  What a far out concept to communicate and educate  as we did in the past with nature and symbolism instead of "facts".  

You also mentioned the outrageous possibility of experiencing ourselves as tied to nature verses being objective observers.   To know the tides and the movements of in the heavens and the changing of the seasons as we know our own breath and feeling ourselves a part of this rhythm of nature, instead of the most obvious reality that are separate from God and nature and everything else.  Are you a pagan?  Shocked   LOL

How about this, there is so much to say about totomism and our connection to the earth and the heavens, symbolism verses "the word" that all these deserve their own threads.  Education for democracy is very specific and very word and reason and objective based.  

Whoo, you are really making me think of what is important here.  The first lesson in democracy coming from Athens was Athena's new temple.  Her temple was filled with murals of the gods, teaching a new relationship between the gods and ourselves.  The force of our more modern lessons on democracy totally ignore Athens' gods and focus on our history of western conflict and abuses of power.   I must say, I never gave this difference much thought before.  Maybe I should ponder what you said more carefully?  

Where is the emoticon with the brains running of the ear because of too much thinking and melting one's brain?  Wacko





Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 08:12
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Start another thread on the bull, if you haven't already and I'll contribute to it.  The "Apollonian" Apollo really comes in with Pindar, the Theban poet.  Before that Apollo was a more martial god, see Iliad for example, or even a chthonic god, Apollo Oulios.  Also, Homer is not agrarian, but Hesiod, with the 'Works and Days' is.  Hesiod was traditionally thought superior to Homer, as peace was to war.  "Homer" is the oldest of Greek literature, although since he comes out of an oral tradition, that might make it difficult to date him.  Hesiod is next oldest, and Pindar is the next oldest after Hesiod, as far as complete works we have.  That is not to say we don't have fragments older than Pindar, basically quotes, some substantial, that are preserved in other works.

Themistocles is an amazing Athenian leader, basically he was responsible for the shift in Athens, away from an aristocratic (oligarchic) calvary of elites, and an army of citizen hoplites to a fleet where the individual citizens became more important as those who crewed the triremes.  He was instrumental in creating the Athenian major portion of the fleet that defeated the Persians at Salamis.  He later got caught up in scandals (real or perceived), and eventually went over to Persia becoming a local ruler, they appreciated a good man, unlike Athens. 

That is it, this post has to begin a new thread!  Star  I will copy and paste it now.  I am so excited and thrilled.  Clap
Athens shift from aristocracy to democracy
http://www.worldhistoria.com/topic129841_post107026.html#107026 - http://www.worldhistoria.com/topic129841_post107026.html#107026


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2019 at 01:40
I have been reading a Dewey book about education and I was right about him being hated because he would have children think for themselves.  Conservatives stand strongly against this.  It was the 2012 Texas Republican agenda to keep such thinking out of their schools.  The opposed education in the higher order thinking skills  HOTS.  

Dewey opposed rote learning and he was strongly attacked for that, but people who thought authority and discipline are essential.  Dewey would have children learn from experience with minimal guidance fro the teacher.  I am more conservative than that.  There needs to be a balance between giving children direction and allowing them to choose their own thing.  It is my experience that children don't enjoy anything like a walk in the woods if they are not prepared to enjoy that.  They can be totally controlled by commercials that designed to control the desire to have something.  So if are not actively guiding them to enjoy things like a walk in the woods and other things of value, they will be compulsive consumers, and dependent on consumption for immediate and temporary relief from the pain of life.  

Dewey makes a point of explaining our compulsive desire for something without thought is problematic.  He would have children think through everything, training their minds to do this, instead of leaving them to be compulsive.  

For awhile our education dropped training for logic and as I said, Texas would avoid it!  Their grades were dependent on memorization.  We switched from the Conceptual Method, that is thinking things through to the Behaviorist Method that is also used for training dogs.  Then in the 1970's we announced a national youth crisis.  It appears there is a return to education for logic but I think it is weak.   

On the good side is men like Daniel Kahneman who wrote ThinkingFast and Slow.  His book explains how our brains work and why sometimes we make very bad decisions, no matter how smart we are.
We can use our new knowledge of humans and how our brains work to have better education.  
 


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2019 at 14:04
I don't know what "children thinking for themselves" means.  Children are minors in the American system, and therefore not completely responsible for their actions, we recognize that they need parents or some other form of guardian.  Now they should be able to spread their wings and attempt to fly, but at the same time if they fall down, they will (and expect to) be picked up.  It seems to me that the impetus is to legally assume people are less responsible, that there brains 'aren't developed' and that the nanny state has to take care of everyone.  Children need not only to be taught that they have rights, but that their rights are (each) others responsibility.  Rights cannot exist in a world without responsibility.

I cannot comment on Texas' philosophy of education, and I would humbly suggest that if you want to discuss Texas' philosophy of education, that you explain it first (in some depth), and then critique it.  Otherwise, we won't know what you are talking about.  I know that Texas is influential for textbooks (Tex is influential for texts), but that is about all.

If you have a quote(s) of Dewey illustrating how he thinks children can and will think for themselves, I encourage you to present them.  Rote memorization is not as needed these days where you can readily look things up, or use a calculator.  But, still I would recommend to anyone and everyone that they remember a few poems or songs.  I do wish I learned grammar better, grammar helps with logically analyzing statements.  But, anywho, if you have quote or quotes we can mill over for Dewey, we can probably understand him better.  A secondary source might work instead, but wouldn't be as good since it wouldn't be his own words. 


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2019 at 03:01
I will get back to you with a Dewey quote.

The "impetus" in Dewey's thinking is the child's motives versus adult direction that kills the child's natural instinct to learn.  I am rushing and not coming up with the right words. There are two very popular teaching systems and I can't think of their names, Montessori and Summer Hill?  These are more child self directed education systems.  

Conservatives teach what should be known.  It is rote and authority directed.  Progressives encourage self direction.  Fill in the ideas, I have to run.  I love you all and wish I could stay here all day.   

Quote https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/texas-gop-rejects-critical-thinking-skills-really/2012/07/08/gJQAHNpFXW_blog.html -

https://www.google.com/search?q=texas+republican+agenda+2012+critical+thinking&rlz=1C1CHKZ_enUS481US483&oq=Texas+Repulican+agensa+2012&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j33l2.24912j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8# -
  1. https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHKZ_enUS481US483&q=related:https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/texas-gop-rejects-critical-thinking-skills-really/2012/07/08/gJQAHNpFXW_blog.html+texas+republican+agenda+2012+critical+thinking&tbo=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiVk8qGhuLjAhWTIDQIHQLhCJEQHzAAegQIBhAE -
Jul 9, 2012 - It sees “critical thinking” as something subversive. Scary stuff. Here's the rest of the education section of the Texas GOP's 2012 platform: ... Basic Standards – We favor improving the quality of education for all students, including those with special needs.

Texas also took the creationist battle to the supreme court, because they wanted creationism in science books and some teachers argued creationism is not science.  Texas lost, creationism is not science.  


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2019 at 09:48
Here is a Dewey quote that I think is very important.

Quote The crucial education problem is that of procuring the postponement of immediate action upon desire until observation and judgment have intervened.  Unless I am mistaken, this point is definitely relevant to the conduct of progressive schools.  Overemphasis upon activity as an end, instead of upon intelligent activity, leads to identification of freedom with immediate execution of impulses and desires.  This identification is justified by a confusion of impulse with purpose; although, as has just been said, there is no purpose unless overt action is postponed until there is foresight of the consequences of carrying the impulse into execution- a foresight that is impossible without observation, information, and judgment.

I hope that is enough to convey the point.  Athenians were very proud of their debating before an action decision was made.  Spartans saw that as a weakness.  I believe it is Pericles funeral speech that addresses this difference in opinion?  A more recent reference would be President Bush bragging that he doesn't think too much before making a decision, and Obama who was criticized for thinking too much, and then back to Trump who is proud to make decisions without consulting with others.   Which style of leadership a person prefers may depend on what is believed to be true about humans and our relationship with a God.   Do we come to good judgement through a process of scientific thinking, or like the kings of old, do our leaders have a special relationship with a god who gives them special powers?   Or like Spartans, is our animal instinct best and is spending too much time on observation and debating a waste of time and weakness?   

Education is like a genie in a bottle, the defined purpose is the wish and the students are the genie.  A conservative education tends to be authoritarian with the expectation of obedience.  At least that is how I understand a Catholic or Christian education.  I prefer the behavior of students at Catholic schools and think public schools are making a big mistake by not having a better standard of behavior, however, I think a democracy demands people who can think things through and work with each other to get things done.   That is the goal Dewey is shooting for, preparing the students to be independent thinkers and tomorrows leaders, but education for technology is not exactly doing that.  Education for technology is about depending on the experts.  




Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 11:16
There is a level were people want to debate something, whereas what they really should do is make a decision (and stick with it).  Some people argue in bad faith, pretending like they are offering a solution, whereas what they really want to do is bog down the process so that no decision can be made.  Of course, here (worldhistoria) is a site for discussion and dialogue.  But, I think in the political arena, those in the debate often have preconceived answers.  Yes, people usually should judge matters, but a lot of time, propaganda acts as a "convenient" shortcut to come up with the answer, often without dealing with the problem.  But, again, there is a time for everything, a time for talk, but again a time for opening up a can of whoop-ass.   

Propaganda means propagation of the faith, originally a Catholic notion, but transferred in modern terms into Soviet, National Socialist or fascist, and, yes, American systems of propaganda.  We don't like to admit it to ourselves, but just as Saddam Hussein's Baathist party had elections with Saddam's one party system getting all of the vote, a two party system is just a variant on the one party system, trading off between twiddle dee and twiddle dum.  Of course, democrats want to put an end to that, by dismantling the electoral college system, at least that is what the current governor of Colorado wants to do.  One might wonder why a governor of Colorado wants to enact benefits for the major metropolitan areas of the United States like NY or LA.  Right now we are one step removed from a single party state, and the democrats seem to want to change that.  Electoral college protects the (rural and small state) minority. 


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 12:50
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

There is a level were people want to debate something, whereas what they really should do is make a decision (and stick with it).  Some people argue in bad faith, pretending like they are offering a solution, whereas what they really want to do is bog down the process so that no decision can be made.  Of course, here (worldhistoria) is a site for discussion and dialogue.  But, I think in the political arena, those in the debate often have preconceived answers.  Yes, people usually should judge matters, but a lot of time, propaganda acts as a "convenient" shortcut to come up with the answer, often without dealing with the problem.  But, again, there is a time for everything, a time for talk, but again a time for opening up a can of whoop-ass.   

Propaganda means propagation of the faith, originally a Catholic notion, but transferred in modern terms into Soviet, National Socialist or fascist, and, yes, American systems of propaganda.  We don't like to admit it to ourselves, but just as Saddam Hussein's Baathist party had elections with Saddam's one party system getting all of the vote, a two party system is just a variant on the one party system, trading off between twiddle dee and twiddle dum.  Of course, democrats want to put an end to that, by dismantling the electoral college system, at least that is what the current governor of Colorado wants to do.  One might wonder why a governor of Colorado wants to enact benefits for the major metropolitan areas of the United States like NY or LA.  Right now we are one step removed from a single party state, and the democrats seem to want to change that.  Electoral college protects the (rural and small state) minority. 

Unhappy  I just read a post you wrote that had me so delighted I could hardly control my thoughts, and then I was distracted before I could reply.  Now instead of the post I wanted to find, I see this post and wonder what the heck it is doing in this thread?  What does it have to do with education?  Were you dismissing what I said as inappropriate for discussion?  Are you saying what I say is propaganda and not a good response to your ideas and questions.  Am I being too narcissistic?  To eager to say what I think and not being a good listener?  

Australia has what I think is the best voting system.  In Australia voters rank their choices candidates and if their first choice of a candidate doesn't win the vote goes to the second choice or third choice.  I love the idea because it means we could risk voting for a third party with little chance of winning, and not completely loose our vote.  I bet that would mess with our two party system that is very corrupted and seriously needs messing up.     

Now where is the great post you wrote that I am having trouble finding? Unhappy


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 16:39
Originally posted by Athena Athena wrote:

Quote Ok well then here you must explain how a government bureaucracy and the manner of humans since recorded history differ in grooming their young for war or work.

Quote I think I missed this statement or that my reply didn't get much attention and it is vitally important.  We are training people to do particular work, rather than to be civic and industrial leaders.
Everyone can't be a leader, not everyone wants to be a leader. The Collectivism of Stalinist Russia insured the starvation of millions by selecting leaders based on the success of their more successful neighbors. This separated the exact people who were feeding two countries in Eastern Europe from the slackers who were unsuccessful for -what ever reason. You can give away someone's hard work but without the know-how and will the result is failure, everyone suffers. Give a slacker his own company to run and the results are predictable.
Quote
That means only the privileged who are prepared by their families and private schools or the best colleges like Yale and Harvard are prepared to run our world for us. 
Do you want bartenders writing legislation? -oh right-you do!
Quote
The rest of us are prepared to follow orders and depend on the leaders who make the real decisions.  Not only we are prepared as slaves to do the work, but merit hiring is authoritarian and only those who come up through the system can rise.
I think you mean working for a wage which is not slavery. Complain about the pay, understandable but it's not slavery..
What about the Anointed One? He was born in a manger, in Hawaii and became POTUS. 
Merit hiring is Authoritarian?
You want an affirmative action airline pilot?

Quote Useless you are a politician.  Shocked  Our votes are almost 100% based on if we like a candidate.  We do not have a good merit system for determining who will represent us in public office.
Voters vote, politicians use spikes in public opinion to gain trust. If you like them it's their persona but if it's a reliable persona that's almost as good as actual convictions.

Quote That leads to reactionary politics that appeal to our emotions, not our ability to reason.
Agree. Teen boys should not be competing with teen girls for wrestling scholarships or track  scholarships. Perpetuating the delusion of 'fairness' is bizarre on the part of PC education.
Quote    This is a serious political problem and a human experience problem.  I have not developed these thoughts enough to properly express them, but Tocqueville had much to say of this in his 1830 book "Democracy in America". 
 
de Tocqueville never met Stalin, Hitler or Mao, reactionary politics on mega steroids.

Quote
I have really mixed feelings about this.  Part of me would love to live in the days of pharaohs and to love my pharaoh as a god.  To be perfectly content with my lot in life and feel free of all responsibility because it is the pharaohs job to care for us, and we just do what it is our lot in life to do.  Tocqueville speaks of this as living under despotism.   But our Declaration of Independence could be called a Declaration of Responsibility.  For most of history our fate was determined by our birth, not by our individual effort.
Yes the life lottery it's not fair, it just is. 

[quote]But to be born in the US to be born responsible and to participate in meeting community needs, economic and political matters.   We are to educate ourselves, and that did not mean huge college loans and a formal education.  It meant as citizens we read pamphlets, newspapers, and books and educated ourselves, and employers accepted this.  We could return to our golden age if we demanded the democratic model for industry, but before that can happen, we need to understand we have a problem and there is a solution.  
The democratic model for industry does not exist we use the Capitalist model.
I think it is getting much harder to fool the masses, politician's rhetoric is shameless pandering for votes, "end the electoral college"- just say anything!


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 01:26
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by Athena Athena wrote:

Quote Ok well then here you must explain how a government bureaucracy and the manner of humans since recorded history differ in grooming their young for war or work.

I don't think I said that, but it is a something I really want to comment on.  Basically grooming people for war begins with the method of child rearing.   Aggressive cultures raise children with a degree of cruelty.   This begins by ignoring the cries of a baby to slapping the bady with the idea this will make the baby strong/aggressive.  It can also mean beating the devil out of children.  Environment plays a role in this choice.  Genghis Khan thought Christians had a ridiculous belief to believe a god in the sky cared for them.  That idea of god came from the fertile crescent where nature where life was pretty easy.  

There is also raising a child to be gentle and cooperative.  This is done with plenty of nurturing and may include discouraging aggressive behaviors.  

Quote Everyone can't be a leader, not everyone wants to be a leader. The Collectivism of Stalinist Russia insured the starvation of millions by selecting leaders based on the success of their more successful neighbors. This separated the exact people who were feeding two countries in Eastern Europe from the slackers who were unsuccessful for -what ever reason. You can give away someone's hard work but without the know-how and will the result is failure, everyone suffers. Give a slacker his own company to run and the results are predictable.

Everyone better be trained to be good leaders because that is training for citizenship in a democracy.  Comparing this to what happened under Stalinist in a country that never had training for leadership and independent thinking is like comparing and apple with a fish, isn't it? 

Quote Do you want bartenders writing legislation? -oh right-you do!
Quote

Oh my goodness what are you saying? Broken Heart Of course I want a bartender to write legislation.  What do you think democracy, self-government and consensus mean?   Anyone of us can have unusual insight, and make a very important contribution to humanity and it is our duty to speak when we think we have better reasoning.  

Quote nitiative. In political terminology, the initiative is a process that enables citizens to bypass their state legislature by placing proposed statutes and, in some states, constitutional amendments on the ballot.Sep 20, 2012
http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/initiative-referendum-and-recall-overview.aspx -

 

Quote  I think you mean working for a wage which is not slavery. Complain about the pay, understandable but it's not slavery..
What about the Anointed One? He was born in a manger, in Hawaii and became POTUS. 

I am not sure workers have always felt free.  I thank God we now have 40 hour weeks and do not work 14 days 6 to 7 days a week, for a wage that leaves our families in extreme poverty.  

I am afraid religion is getting pulled into another secular discussion.  Please do not this.  It will get very ugly.  I am blown away that this would happen in a history forum.  Shall we talk about Calvinism and what it has to do economic improvement and what economic improvement has to do with our families being secure and healthy and compare this to our reality before there was science and economic improvement?  What about the union workers who got their heads bashed in as they fought for better wages and working conditions.  What about seeing reality through history?  

[quote]Merit hiring is Authoritarian?
You want an affirmative action airline pilot? 

Are you questioning if merit hiring is authoritarian?  You think something is wrong with affirmative action?  Confused  Your two statements together seem to fight each other.  

[quote]Voters vote, politicians use spikes in public opinion to gain trust. If you like them it's their persona but if it's a reliable persona that's almost as good as actual convictions.
  

Ermm What about ideas?   Shouldn't politics be discussion of ideas rather than popularity contest?  How about this spike "Don't ask what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" Jack Kennedy.  By that way was a Catholic and a darn good president in my opinion.  

[quote]de Tocqueville never met Stalin, Hitler or Mao, reactionary politics on mega steroids.
  And your point is?  

[quote]Yes the life lottery it's not fair, it just is.
  I think democracy is about liberty and justice and being empowered do something about liberty and justice.  I believe strongly that our human potential, the very comfortable lives we have now, is the result of understanding democracy and our responsibility as citizens.  This is something that makes different from Hindu India where for centuries people thought their fate was preordained, as did the people in Christian Europe.  I don't know we say India has a cast system and in the west we have social classes?  Really, are they different?  What is different is believing no matter what we are born into we can raise and a democracy can enable everyone to give their best contribution to the whole.   

Sorry, out of time.  I hope I remember to return and finish responding to your very stimulating comments.  


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 06:15
So, there is a degree of sarcasm here its related to earlier comments in your thread. My point, and I apologize for being unclear, is that whether to -defend a great democracy or a harvest of wheat- we pass down own intentions to the young. If there is something worth defending people have to be groomed to defend it. 
Is this different from an all encompassing educational model? Our culture is different bc of the exchange of ideas. Not everyone is suited for leadership, are you kidding? we are not all the same, not at the same level of awareness.

Affirmative action is patronizing! And more recently, pandering!

It presupposes a low bar expectation of a human bc of the subgroup they fall into. Defend affirmative action, please if it's a question of democracy in your view.

I want the law to be written by lawyers. The bartenders can read and support the candidate of their choice.
One bartender in congress didn't notice the problem of detaining undocumented people at the border until she was elected. This bartender criticized our democratically elected president for "putting kids in cages". 
Then someone finally pointed out to her that we the US, have been doing that since 2015, when the Anointed One was in the WH.

I'm comparing the idea that 'everyone gets equal treatment' to a lovely daydream, I have it too.
The truth is democracy has evolved and so have many people. People like you should and will move ahead you have a curious mind and strong convictions. 
At this point if you were an animal you would evolve or go extinct. As much as it pains me to say this; Obama pushed political evolution along in a way that serves democracy. I really didn't like it at the time but in retrospect I appreciate the bar he set for public transparency. He talked about aspects of government on late night tv- that again really sickened me- yet dark shadows are being exposed daily.

Quote Everyone better be trained to be good leaders because that is training for citizenship in a democracy.  Comparing this to what happened under Stalinist in a country that never had training for leadership and independent thinking is like comparing and apple with a fish, isn't it?

You are really saying that there is no training for leadership and independent thinking in the US?
Do you attribute that to the crazed leftist view on college campus?

Merit hiring is the only method that should be employed unless a person has completed some training and is just starting out.

No one ever hired me for my circumstances, mostly I just paid attention and worked hard.

Regarding de Tocqueville this is how the connection to Marxism/Communism is made NYTimes article -
http://https//www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/books/chapters/1007-1st-ander.html - http://https://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/books/chapters/1007-1st-ander.html
the link won't work if you search these terms you might read the article i can't do it justice in a quote.
"...not long before he died, the political philosopher Isaiah Berlin somberly summed up his, and our, age: "I have lived through most of the twentieth century without ... suffering personal hardship. I remember it only as the most terrible century in Western history." What made it so terrible is politics-or, more precisely, the secular religions of National Socialism and communism, which violently sought to transfigure the bourgeois economic and political condition of modern man. The exact number of people killed by these political adventures will never be known, but it exceeds 125 million.
Democratic Capitalism and Its Discontents by Brian C. Anderson


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 13:24
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

The democratic model for industry does not exist we use the Capitalist model.
I think it is getting much harder to fool the masses, politician's rhetoric is shameless pandering for votes, "end the electoral college"- just say anything!

Huh?  Are you saying democracy is opposed to capitalism?  I am totally confused because I thought we all believed democracy is what resulted in our economic growth.  

Quote

So, there is a degree of sarcasm here its related to earlier comments in your thread. My point, and I apologize for being unclear, is that whether to -defend a great democracy or a harvest of wheat- we pass down own intentions to the young. If there is something worth defending people have to be groomed to defend it. 
Is this different from an all encompassing educational model? Our culture is different bc of the exchange of ideas. Not everyone is suited for leadership, are you kidding? we are not all the same, not at the same level of awareness.

Our culture is different from what?  

I am sorry but your argument sounds like what drove me to a used book store about 35 years ago, to find an old text book that would give me the list of American values everyone child was taught. 

A public commentator said teachers shouldn't have to waste their time on poor students and when I called in shear horror of what he said, he was very pleased with himself because teachers loved his comment.  Shocked  Since then I have built a library filled with old text books and books written about education.  I have a very different point of view because it comes from the past when my grandmother and peers believed they defending democracy in the classroom.   
 
Quote Affirmative action is patronizing! And more recently, pandering!  It presupposes a low bar expectation of a human bc of the subgroup they fall into. Defend affirmative action, please if it's a question of democracy in your view. 

The ideal of democracy is for every person to be enabled to make his/her best contribution to the whole of society.  What do you think would be better?  You don't think  the effort being made today is necessary because of past social injustices and a very different economy than we have now?   Coming from the Enlightenment, the democratic movement is to improve the human potential.    

I am uncomfortable with the disagreement we seem to be having, but that seems to be the result of the education change made in 1858.  We are a nation in cultural crisis Unhappy  and I find this very sad.   The pressure to continue our progress of human decency is extremely high and so is the pressure to judge one another as our world war enemy judged people, on their IQ and merit.  


Quote   I want the law to be written by lawyers.

Then you do not want democracy.  You want authoritarianism and this was totally unexpected from you, but it validates my concern about the change in education has done to our nation.    

Quote The bartenders can read and support the candidate of their choice.
One bartender in congress didn't notice the problem of detaining undocumented people at the border until she was elected. This bartender criticized our democratically elected president for "putting kids in cages".
  and you think it is okay to separate children from their relatives and put them in cages?  
I have to stop here.  

Quote No one ever hired me for my circumstances, mostly I just paid attention and worked hard.
 

 And you have no awareness of the charity and helping hand with dignity that was our Christian past.  This is not an IQ problem it is a problem of the spirit.  





Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 14:37
There are two views of representational democracy, one is that such a democracy is about representation, and if the government doesn't represent "me," well I will go and pout.  I tend to think of this as a democrat view, people want candy, and a politician is only as good or as bad as how much they satisfy the candy fix.  The other view of representational democracy is that it is about participation, and that by voting and participating, you are giving your consent to the outcome of the process, even though your guy doesn't necessarily win.  This is more important than just plain representation, because the hardest thing in a government is the transition from one government to another.  Participation gives it credibility regardless of the outcome, whether you favor it or not.  An election decides and it should decide, for the next few years.  
 Some people want to rewrite the last election, they arrogantly presume that, some people's votes should not count.  They can give various reasons, but basically it is because those people don't agree with the enlightened ones.  That rewriting would marginalize those, who by the rules of system, participated and had their candidate win.  Those people have long been marginalized by not only the Democrats, but the Republicans too.   Now they feel like they are being paid attention to.  I don't think that is bad, of course, if you want to vilify the other guy, demonize him, well then maybe it is not you who are "democratic," but the other guy working within the system.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 15:10
Not saying that democracy is bad for Capitalism, just the opposite is evident.

Our culture is a democracy, it's special.

Change the culture from media imposed perpetual resentment. There are opportunities.

Of course no one wants children in cages or trafficked, or dying in the desert. They are being held in a Detention Facility, not a daycare. It's actually against the law to cross illegally. D Congress held up funding for beds and other comforts, for those children.

Oh of course I must be morally bankrupt bc if I'm not wrong I must be evil



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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 21:05
Modern human rights are just that - modern. Older civilisations and societies would be perplexed at our protections of individuals regardless of circumstance. Except the dole queue though. They would have understood that completely.

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http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 10:36
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Modern human rights are just that - modern. Older civilisations and societies would be perplexed at our protections of individuals regardless of circumstance. Except the dole queue though. They would have understood that completely.

Aldous Huxley said...
"In the past, personal and political liberty depended to a considerable extent upon governmental inefficiency.  The spirit of tyranny was always more than willing; but its organization and material equipment were generally weak.  Progressive science and technology have changed all this considerably."

This changes our awareness of human rights.  But if we look into the past, there was slavery and serfdom.  Somehow people developed an idea that a person can own land and force others to work his land.  Philosophy deals with this.  Is it natural?  Should there be a king who enforces this inequality?    Mostly religion controlled what people did, and somehow it became okay to persecute those who held different beliefs.  Kings take away land from Catholics or Protestants or Jews.  What happened to the Jews in the Christian German Republic could happen anywhere to any group of people, without laws to protect human rights.  How the US is treating the homeless and people who cross its boarders, could be part of the discussion of human rights.  

On what do we base our ideas of human rights?  We can not stop with saying it is "the law".  What was done to the Jews was the law and those who faced charges as war criminals defended themselves by saying they were only following orders.  

Liberty is the freedom to define right and wrong as we see it, and democracy is about coming to coming to social agreements about laws enforcing ideas of right and wrong.  Where does our responsibility in this start and where does it end?   This could be an interesting question if we keep Germany in mind and how we justified a war against them and then the war crime trails.   How about our laws protecting us from homeless people, and their rights as human beings?  I live in the West and everyone was homeless when they first arrived.  If we can't do better, maybe we should destroy our cities and outlaw all claims to land?  Do human beings have rights, simply because they are human?  Do they have rights without duties?    


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 11:06
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Not saying that democracy is bad for Capitalism, just the opposite is evident.

Our culture is a democracy, it's special.

Change the culture from media imposed perpetual resentment. There are opportunities.

Of course no one wants children in cages or trafficked, or dying in the desert. They are being held in a Detention Facility, not a daycare. It's actually against the law to cross illegally. D Congress held up funding for beds and other comforts, for those children.

Oh of course I must be morally bankrupt bc if I'm not wrong I must be evil


If democracy is good for Capitalism then shouldn't we use the democratic model for industry?   

What is special about our democracy?

Around the world nations have had to deal with refugees.  Each nation has handled the problem differently.  I do not think the way the US has been handling the problem is acceptable.  Sorry, but I associate tolerating something that should not tolerated with Nazi, Germany.  There are times when when need to turn to God with our questions of right and wrong, and oppose the government.  In the words of Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death".  

On the other hand, I do not donate money to feed the starving people around the world.  However, I would donate to birth control programs.   Reality can be extremely harsh and we are limited to what we can do about that.  I am 100% in favor of education in the facts of life. Over population is a serious problem, and oil is finite and we can kill rivers and our ocean.  Our economy will collapse like Rome when we exhaust our supply of oil, or we could go bankrupt paying for wars.  We are doing insane things and there is no excuse for this in a modern world with science and mass communication.   

When it comes to South America, what do we know of their problems?  Jesus said something along the line of what you do to the least of them you do to me.  If they are knocking on our door, what do you think Jesus would do?  I am not Christian, but I do think we should turn to God when determining right from wrong.  

Humans can make really bad laws, and taking hurtful actions, democracy is about correcting them.  America first doesn't sound like a commandment from an universal God and I don't think that thinking will bring out the best in us.   


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 14:30
Technically, we (US) have a mixed government, with aspects of kingship, aristocracy (or oligarchy if you prefer), and democracy, albeit representative democracy.

Before nature and natural rights, there was the traditional, or the customary.  Nature is a reform on tradition.  Tradition and custom honors what is old, nature is what is most old, even if it has never actually been in existence.  Of course, some people want to get rid of the natural, I don't think they understand what kind of pandora's box that can create.


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2019 at 00:37
I want to comment on concerns that a bartender became a representative.  Peter Defazio has been an Oregon representative sine 1987 and he was a house painter.  The point is, in a democracy anyone can run for office, and education that prepares everyone to be civic and industrial leaders, is about our responsibility as citizens.  If we think things need to be improved, it is our duty to step up to the plate and do something about it.  Our Declaration of Independence could also be titled a Declaration of Responsibility.    

To address what Franciscosan said, our history is tied to kingdoms, kings and slavery.  This is the social order of the Bible, and that is what Christianity supported.  A main reason for having education for democracy is immigrants from Europe were living in kingdoms or autocracies and it was known if we teach the children democrat values their parents will learn.  Philosophers argued that the order of monarchies are not natural. Literacy in Greek and Roman classics lead to people seeing democracy can be compatible with Christianity but this was a hard fight. 

The struggle to replace monarchy with democracy also happened in China where Taoism pressured for a return to nature and Buddhism pressured for equality. Legalism in China made everyone equal under the law.  India had a caste system that to me is no different from having classes and believing God determined who would be a master and who would serve.  

I think some who read the Bible can get the notion that nature is evil and humans are by nature evil and they must have men chosen by God as authority over them.  Really so many of our conflicts are about the nature of man.  The Athenians thought it was our nature to be political.  So what is our nature and is nature good or evil?   

  


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2019 at 03:54
Originally posted by Athena Athena wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Not saying that democracy is bad for Capitalism, just the opposite is evident.

Our culture is a democracy, it's special.

Change the culture from media imposed perpetual resentment. There are opportunities.

Of course no one wants children in cages or trafficked, or dying in the desert. They are being held in a Detention Facility, not a daycare. It's actually against the law to cross illegally. D Congress held up funding for beds and other comforts, for those children.

Oh of course I must be morally bankrupt bc if I'm not wrong I must be evil


If democracy is good for Capitalism then shouldn't we use the democratic model for industry?   

What is special about our democracy?
You tell me, you wrote this-
"I think democracy is about liberty and justice and being empowered do something about liberty and justice.  I believe strongly that our human potential, the very comfortable lives we have now, is the result of understanding democracy and our responsibility as citizens."

Accurate. If you are poor it's the best country to be poor. Even homeless bastards are sh*tting their brains out all over the West Coast bc there is so much free food available.

 " This is something that makes different from Hindu India where for centuries people thought their fate was preordained, as did the people in Christian Europe.  I don't know we say India has a cast system and in the west we have social classes?  Really, are they different?"

Oh Yes. Do need one of those emotional motivational quotes about someone who comes to america with nothing and makes life a great success using Capitalism system?  

"What is different is believing no matter what we are born into we can raise and a democracy can enable everyone to give their best contribution to the whole."

Agree.  

Quote Around the world nations have had to deal with refugees.  Each nation has handled the problem differently.  I do not think the way the US has been handling the problem is acceptable.
Expand on that please. How have we been dealing with it? If you don't follow current events then you should look into. Stop accepting crap news at face value.
Quote Sorry, but I associate tolerating something that should not tolerated with Nazi, Germany.
Then you aren't really thinking it through.
 
Quote There are times when when need to turn to God with our questions of right and wrong, and oppose the government.  In the words of Patrick Henry, "Give me liberty or give me death".
Invoking god? teehee 
Quote
On the other hand, I do not donate money to feed the starving people around the world.  However, I would donate to birth control programs. Reality can be extremely harsh and we are limited to what we can do about that.  I am 100% in favor of education in the facts of life.
Unintended pregnacies went up when schools introduced sex education. Thomas Sowell presents the data,(Science!) proving that fact. 
 
Quote  
When it comes to South America, what do we know of their problems?  Jesus said something along the line of what you do to the least of them you do to me.  If they are knocking on our door, what do you think Jesus would do?  I am not Christian, but I do think we should turn to God when determining right from wrong.
Jesus would have broke out some wine, loaves, fishes maybe some mescal. I ain't He.
I'd say show me the Spanish Bastards who took my country's wealth and decimated our population!

Or- please US! Take us in and give us a chance to move our drug cartels further north, sell poor children for the sex trade bc we don't value our own lives nor the lives of our children. Let me cut in line ahead of legal immigrants! I was told that if I bring a child with me I'm in! So I bought an eight month old in Honduras for $500! 

Quote Humans can make really bad laws, and taking hurtful actions, democracy is about correcting them.
democracy is about being free of "really bad laws" and limiting the power of government.
Quote   America first doesn't sound like a commandment from an universal God and I don't think that thinking will bring out the best in us.
Who thinks that now? If every misfit in the world is moving in, where's the money going to come from?
When is the last time a homeless person paid you for working? 


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2019 at 04:45
Originally posted by Athena Athena wrote:

Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Modern human rights are just that - modern. Older civilisations and societies would be perplexed at our protections of individuals regardless of circumstance. Except the dole queue though. They would have understood that completely.

Aldous Huxley said...
"In the past, personal and political liberty depended to a considerable extent upon governmental inefficiency.  The spirit of tyranny was always more than willing; but its organization and material equipment were generally weak.  Progressive science and technology have changed all this considerably."
Are you missing the point? I don't agree with him but Huxley is saying the "spirit of tyranny"
is a thing of the past.


Quote This changes our awareness of human rights.  But if we look into the past, there was slavery and serfdom.  Somehow people developed an idea that a person can own land and force others to work his land.  Philosophy deals with this.  Is it natural?
As natural as kids fighting on the playground.
Quote Should there be a king who enforces this inequality?
There isn't a king in the US. Why would you be worrying about that?
Quote    Mostly religion controlled what people did, and somehow it became okay to persecute those who held different beliefs.  Kings take away land from Catholics or Protestants or Jews.  What happened to the Jews in the Christian German Republic could happen anywhere to any group of people, without laws to protect human rights.
We have laws to protect human rights. The Third Reich was not religious in the way you spin the conversation. Hitler was an occultist and the 'gods' were revived from the ancient past, Viking gods and so forth. Calling the Nazis Christians simply isn't accurate. Connecting Luther to the Nazis just because he was German is exactly the kind of reasoning now alarming you about undocumented people at the border. Luther didn't influence the Nazis but if you insist then please expand that argument.
Quote he US is treating the homeless and people who cross its boarders, could be part of the discussion of human rights.
What are these horrible things that the US is imposing on the homeless?
Quote
Onwhat do we base our ideas of human rights? 
US constitution.  
Quote
We can not stop with saying it is "the law".  What was done to the Jews was the law
In fecking Nazi Germany!
Quote
and those who faced charges as war criminals defended themselves by saying they were only following orders. 
It didn't help!
Quote
Liberty is the freedom to define right and wrong as we see it, and democracy is about coming to coming to social agreements about laws enforcing ideas of right and wrong.  Where does our responsibility in this start and where does it end?
US Constitution grants and restricts freedom of individuals and limits the power of government. It gives the Executive Branch the responsibility for protecting the safety of US citizens. The US Constitution is not authorized to provide for the safety of every person on the planet. Wouldn't we be wiser to address urban decay and crime in the US before importing non-citizens? International law requires requests for asylum to be made in the first country one enters after escaping home country. Now dragging kids through 3000 miles of trauma is not about asylum but tapping into the wealth of the US.




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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2019 at 09:35
Originally posted by Athena Athena wrote:

I want to comment on concerns that a bartender became a representative.  Peter Defazio has been an Oregon representative sine 1987 and he was a house painter.  The point is, in a democracy anyone can run for office, and education that prepares everyone to be civic and industrial leaders, is about our responsibility as citizens.  If we think things need to be improved, it is our duty to step up to the plate and do something about it.  Our Declaration of Independence could also be titled a Declaration of Responsibility. 
Good example of a citizen running for office, did he write law? Even if a bartender makes proposals actual politicians will write the laws, legalize.  The citizen should be an informed type, so it really can be a non lawyer.

Quote To address what Franciscosan said, our history is tied to kingdoms, kings and slavery.  This is the social order of the Bible, and that is what Christianity supported.  A main reason for having education for democracy is immigrants from Europe were living in kingdoms or autocracies and it was known if we teach the children democrat values their parents will learn.  Philosophers argued that the order of monarchies are not natural. Literacy in Greek and Roman classics lead to people seeing democracy can be compatible with Christianity but this was a hard fight. 

The struggle to replace monarchy with democracy also happened in China where Taoism pressured for a return to nature and Buddhism pressured for equality. Legalism in China made everyone equal under the law.  India had a caste system that to me is no different from having classes and believing God determined who would be a master and who would serve.  

I think some who read the Bible can get the notion that nature is evil and humans are by nature evil and they must have men chosen by God as authority over them.  Really so many of our conflicts are about the nature of man.  The Athenians thought it was our nature to be political.  So what is our nature and is nature good or evil? 
 

  

It's Nurture/Nature/Bad Seed.
Have you read about cases of feral children? Very interesting one is Kaspar Hauser. 1828 Nuremburg a teenage boy is just abandoned after being kept in a dark cell with a bag on his head hidden from whomever fed him.
A doctor wrote about Hauser and took care of him until his death from a stabbing. It was noted that Hauser had a vaccination mark making him as child of privilege. It was recently revealed that his DNA proves relation to the Bavarian monarchy. It's a mystery who took the boy, speculation about royal ascension have been claimed. 
Hauser is later described in his somewhat non-conditioned state as pre toddler, before Concrete understanding developed. He wouldn't know what happened to a toy if you covered it with a cloth.
he cried when some boys hit a tree and he hugged the tree, like he had the one notion of what to do and did it when he was distressed. He was never seen to act violently and didn't show signs of being physically hit just that he was restrained. He contributed to writing his own life story and is unique for learning to speak as an adult. He claimed he was never spoken to while being held.   


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2019 at 14:19
Athena wrote
Quote   I think some who read the Bible can get the notion that nature is evil and humans are by nature evil and they must have men chosen by God as authority over them.

Throughout history there have been rulers who have claimed direct lineage from their God. Taking a look, for example, at the historical lineage of Ireland, the Ard Ri claimed lineage from Adam. Therefore his rule could not be challenged, unless the usurper would challenge Adams' family.


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“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 02:31
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Technically, we (US) have a mixed government, with aspects of kingship, aristocracy (or oligarchy if you prefer), and democracy, albeit representative democracy.

Before nature and natural rights, there was the traditional, or the customary.  Nature is a reform on tradition.  Tradition and custom honors what is old, nature is what is most old, even if it has never actually been in existence.  Of course, some people want to get rid of the natural, I don't think they understand what kind of pandora's box that can create.

In rereading what you wrote I am reminded of Cicero, on of the most important classical authors for us to read.  Our government is a trinity of power as you said.   

Quote Like Aristotle, Cicero sees three natural (simple) forms of government: monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy.  Interestingly enough, Cicero does not see democracy as the devolved or perverted form of constitutionalism as does Aristotle.  In fact, Cicero doesn’t really see these three forms of having a “perverse” form per Aristotle.  Instead, he just sees these three as having pros and cons that plague each – but all three have positives and negatives and he outlines them toward the end of Book I.  In terms of pure theory, Cicero agrees with Aristotle that democracy/constitutional government is the best (“on paper”).
https://hesiodscorner.wordpress.com/2017/10/03/cicero-the-three-forms-of-government-and-constitutional-revolutions/ - https://hesiodscorner.wordpress.com/2017/10/03/cicero-the-three-forms-of-government-and-constitutional-revolutions/    

A trinity, as the triangle, supports and balances the power of each line.  Our president is as the king,  the senate is the aristocracy and the representatives are the people.   Another trinity is the executive,  judicial, and legislative.   The Masons had a lot to do with our constitution and to be one is to know something of sacred math and the construction of the universe.  Wink

"Tradition and custom honors what is old, nature is what is most old, even if it has never actually been in existence."

I come to the forum this morning form a lot of emotional pain that gives a different perspective, and in your thought I know nature is constant change, it is creative and always new and truly it is old.  The universe is one and all inclusive.  From the one are the many.  Democracy is one for all and all for one.

In philosophy the argument of the unnatural was, the inequality of social/political classes that was justified by religions, and therefore, civilized order under kings or tyrants went against nature.  The history of China can greatly help us understand our own struggle with nature and civilization.   As the argument goes, kings and slaves were man made and unnatural order,  but even in nature, primates organize themselves under an alpha male or if they are bonobo- females rule more as a group with agreements.   However, where an alpha male does rule, he rules with the consent of those who are ruled, and unusually in old age he is dethroned.   But- he if has pleased those under him, those under him will defend him and he will remain in power until he dies.  The good ruler needing good social skills and well as being bigger and stronger than all the others.  


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2019 at 02:41
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

 Throughout history there have been rulers who have claimed direct lineage from their God. Taking a look, for example, at the historical lineage of Ireland, the Ard Ri claimed lineage from Adam. Therefore his rule could not be challenged, unless the usurper would challenge Adams' family.

Ermm  How does that work?  I thought we all came from Adam and Eve.  (not really, but isn't that how the story goes?)   

Was not Ireland Celtic territory?   I think the Celts made important contributions to a take on Christianity that helped make democracy possible.  Their resistance to Rome being important to liberty and human dignity.     


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2019 at 11:02
If I remember right, Ireland was the first Christian area outside of the Roman Empire (in the West that is), in many ways they were more influenced by the desert fathers and monasticism, than the Catholic priestly hierarchy.  Ireland was relatively stable when the Western Empire was going to heck.  The Irish Monks copied a lot of Latin manuscripts, preserving them.  Some stuff pretty racy too, they weren't particular about what they copied.  I think the important characteristic was not that Ireland was Celtic, but that it was outside the Roman Empire (and maybe also that it was Celtic).  But, my guess is that a celt in Ireland would be "primes inter pares" (first among equals), minor lords so to speak.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2019 at 11:29
Originally posted by Athena Athena wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

 Throughout history there have been rulers who have claimed direct lineage from their God. Taking a look, for example, at the historical lineage of Ireland, the Ard Ri claimed lineage from Adam. Therefore his rule could not be challenged, unless the usurper would challenge Adams' family.

Ermm  How does that work?  I thought we all came from Adam and Eve.  (not really, but isn't that how the story goes?)   

Was not Ireland Celtic territory?   I think the Celts made important contributions to a take on Christianity that helped make democracy possible.  Their resistance to Rome being important to liberty and human dignity.     

There people in Ireland before the Celts arrived, but knowledge of them has descended into mythology.

Celtic tribes in Europe, around Germany and France for example, did battle with the Romans, but there was never a Roman presence in Ireland.



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“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”



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