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What Do We Really Know?

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Category: GENERAL HISTORY
Forum Name: Archaeology & Anthropology
Forum Description: Topics on archaeology and anthropology
URL: http://www.worldhistoria.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=129619
Printed Date: 09 Jul 2020 at 16:18
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Topic: What Do We Really Know?
Posted By: toyomotor
Subject: What Do We Really Know?
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 13:19
I found what I think is a very interesting article at
  http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/how-much-what-we-believe-about-ancient-history-really-true-thinking-critically-about-021667" rel="nofollow - http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/how-much-what-we-believe-about-ancient-history-really-true-thinking-critically-about-021667

The article explores some of the mysteries of the antiquities which scientists have tried unsucessfully to explain over centuries.

While these have been commented upon by many over the years, the fact is that the explanations don't really hold water.

Quote Mention that an individual named Marco Polo who went to China in the 1200s likely did not exist and people will get angry. They will lie and use deceit to try to prove he existed, even though outside of one book written by the fiction author Rustichello da Pisa, there is no evidence of his existence. 

How can this be? A foriegn trader arriving in China unannounced would surely have been the subject of some written record by the Chinese and also by the man himself. But it seems that there is a serious lack of evidence of this event.

Quote How could Christopher Columbus have discovered the Americas if there were already millions of people there?

Of course his "discovery"  was from purely a European perspective.

Adding to this, there apparently is evidence of cocaine use by ancient Egyptians, centuries, if not millenia, before the Vikings, Columbus or any other European. There is no evidence of cocaine cultivation in North Africa, and cocaine is recognised as being indigenous to South America. How did the Egyptians obtain their cocaine? Did they travel to South America, or did South Americans, or someone else take it to Egypt?

Quote The following historical accounts should be seriously reconsidered to establish a more accurate view of planetary history: Numerous megalithic sites defy mainstream explanations.  Human beings created such structures, and today, even with our modern technological advances we cannot duplicate their achievements. Such structures include the Great Pyramid in Egypt, insofar as its creation and precision.

Between 2.3 and 2.6 million white limestone blocks weighing between two and 15 tons each were moved across great distances and cut with laser-like precision. They were then stacked to create a highly polished, shiny pyramid. Moving such weights more than 100 feet into the air would prove difficult and dangerous today, yet the pyramid’s builders were able to do so with astonishing precision and (if the Egyptologists’ consensus of a 20-year building process is correct) speed.  If workers labored 10 hours every day, yearly, without a single day’s break, and provided that there were no errors or accidents that set them back, they would have to move 31 perfectly-cut blocks into the mathematically precise positions every hour. This is not possible today, so we have no idea what technology was used in its creation.  We also do not understand how the blocks were moved and lifted, because every theory involving ramps and cranes is discredited if weights and numbers alone are considered.

Similar questions have been raised in connection with the South American magalyths. Blocks of stone weighing many tons, cut to precision and moved over a thousand miles, across very rough country, and stacked with precision impossible with modern day technology.

All explanations including ramps have been discounted, so how were these structures built with such precision, with materials not found in the region?

The article touches on several other unexplained mysteries of a similar nature, such as the statue of Rameses, the face of which is portrayed with both sides of the face precisely identacle, so much so that it is suggested that the face was sculpted using some sort of template.

Over the centuries, we've been educated to believe some things about these great mysteries and to accept the conclusions of some clever people, but were they simply guess work?




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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)



Replies:
Posted By: Dark Warrior
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 15:04
Well as an avid supporter of those trained in the scientific and historical methods...I would hope not. Otoh, those however have only been around a little over a hundred years insofar as practical application is concerned.

So who knows....perhaps the Voodoo witch doctors and Shamans of the rainforest made it all up to secure a superior position within the mass.

Seeking out power and arranging the facts or attempting to justify ones attempt/actions/representations/defense of action Or lack there of might well be the basis of myth and legend.


Nothing new. As I keep reporting. And actually my old friend Solomon reported the same long before I did.

''The thing that has been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done; and there is no new thing under the sun. ''

Eccl 1:9 KJV 2000

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Bellator est tibi morte.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 16:56
Originally posted by Dark Warrior Dark Warrior wrote:

Well as an avid supporter of those trained in the scientific and historical methods...I would hope not. Otoh, those however have only been around a little over a hundred years insofar as practical application is concerned.

So who knows....perhaps the Voodoo witch doctors and Shamans of the rainforest made it all up to secure a superior position within the mass.

Seeking out power and arranging the facts or attempting to justify ones attempt/actions/representations/defense of action Or lack there of might well be the basis of myth and legend.


Nothing new. As I keep reporting. And actually my old friend Solomon reported the same long before I did.

''The thing that has been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done; and there is no new thing under the sun. ''

Eccl 1:9 KJV 2000

Quote Well as an avid supporter of those trained in the scientific and historical methods...I would hope not. Otoh, those however have only been around a little over a hundred years insofar as practical application is concerned.

You can't be serious. Science been around for only a little over a hundred years? Phooey!!!

Quote So who knows....perhaps the Voodoo witch doctors and Shamans of the rainforest made it all up to secure a superior position within the mass.

Now I know you're kidding. Witch Doctors and Shamans didn't author these stories which, until current day, were a part of accepted history.

Quote Nothing new. As I keep reporting. And actually my old friend Solomon reported the same long before I did.  
''The thing that has been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done; and there is no new thing under the sun. ''

Eccl 1:9 KJV 2000

And he was wrong. Each day brings new scientific revelations never imagined by Solomon, or many wise men after him.

We should never quote biblical passages as examples of truth.



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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: Dark Warrior
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 17:20
I was in reference to the Scientific method which HAS not been around for centuries.

As for the science of Solomon's day it had no method as I have been taught it. So consequently it's not surprising that revelations of the day continued to be thought divine intervention at best. Luck at worst.

As for not quoting scripture as truth...you do little charity then to a number of quotations still revered today by many.

''Thou shalt not kill''..for example.

''Now I know you're kidding. Witch Doctors and Shamans didn't author these stories which, until current day, were a part of accepted history''.

That had nothing to do with the intent of the comment that drove the response....matter of fact I would agree....but it's the 'why' of how they developed and were accepted prior to the method that remains the key.

And they may or may not personally wrote the stories. But you err grievously when you assume that 'oral historical recollections' of the aforementioned were not later transcribed into the written vernacular.

Certainly by those who studied them. If not how then did they first appear.





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Bellator est tibi morte.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 18:32
Quote And they may or may not personally wrote the stories. But you err grievously when you assume that 'oral historical recollections' of the aforementioned were not later transcribed into the written vernacular.

You are wrong. I never said that oral historical recollections were not later transcribed into the written vernacular.

In fact, that is precisely what did happen. But with the passage of time, the oral recollections were embellished to the extent that actual truth became severely tarnished.

I'm sorry, but much of your post doesn't make sense to me.


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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: Windemere
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2017 at 06:05
Another scientific mystery is, How did monkeys reach South America, in the New World ?   Monkeys evolved in Africa, in the Old World, and they evidently have a fossil record there going back many millions of years. The continents of Africa and South America apparently diverged from 90 million to 120 million years ago. Yet the fossil record of monkeys in the New World, in South America, only goes back a few million years, a comparatively short time. One theory is that a few founding monkeys may have come over on a raft of floating vegetation.  Yet these monkeys would have had to reproduced, created a founding population, and then genetically  diverged into the many different species of South American monkeys in quite a short time, which is somewhat difficult to believe. I don't think that science has ever adequately explained it.


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Dis Aliter Visum
"Beware of martyrs and those who would die for their beliefs; for they frequently make many others die with them, often before them, sometimes instead of them."


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2017 at 08:58
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.  Bones deteriorate at different rates in different climes.  Jungle is rather a poor environs for preservation, especially small bones like those of a monkey.
I suspect that it was the absence of fossils due to the acid or alkali in the soil and not the absence of monkeys that, that explains why there does not seem like any monkeys before a certain time in South America.  Of course I could be wrong, I have been wrong before;)

toyomotor, you say that the Egyptians had cocaine, but I severely doubt that since cocaine is the refined product of the coca leaf.  Maybe you mean that Egyptians used coca medicinally, but I find that hard to accept considering all you do is proclaim there is evidence, you don't make any effort to explain it.  You are "traveling" with the ball, running with it in basketball without the intermediate steps of dribbling it.  That is a foul and that is not how you play the sport.  So be a good sport, and fill in the intermediate steps.  What exactly are the ancient Egyptians dealing with?  Cocaine, Coca, something else???  How do you know that (how do "they" know that)?  Does your conclusion follow from the premises, does there conclusion (the Egyptologists) naturally follow from their observations.  And how in the hell did primitive man make tapioca pudding without poisoning himself? (process of elimination??)

I think that you, toyomotor, think that we are much smarter than ancient and primitive societies, and therefore we should already know and have figured out everything they have done, and how they did it.  Personally I think the is an illusion and hubris, to think that we know everything they did +more.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2017 at 10:38
Originally posted by Windemere Windemere wrote:

Another scientific mystery is, How did monkeys reach South America, in the New World ?   Monkeys evolved in Africa, in the Old World, and they evidently have a fossil record there going back many millions of years. The continents of Africa and South America apparently diverged from 90 million to 120 million years ago. Yet the fossil record of monkeys in the New World, in South America, only goes back a few million years, a comparatively short time. One theory is that a few founding monkeys may have come over on a raft of floating vegetation.  Yet these monkeys would have had to reproduced, created a founding population, and then genetically  diverged into the many different species of South American monkeys in quite a short time, which is somewhat difficult to believe. I don't think that science has ever adequately explained it.

Thank you Windemere, good to hear from you.

I agree,there are many more mysteries which bedevil us, perhaps, one day, our questions will be answered, but your post adds to the suggestion of "international or intercontinental" travel much earler than we realise.  




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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2018 at 12:09
I watched a documentary TV program last night, entitled "The Vikings Unearthed".

It featured an American Archaeologist, Sarah Parcak, who studies the earth's surface, using newly developed infrared satellite technology in order to find traces of ancient civilisations. She had proven her theories by the revelation of an ancient Viking building next to an existing farm in Greenland.

Now, I was amazed at the revelations that LIDAR has produced, but this goes even further. This particular lady is studying the Viking history in North America, the well known Vinland in L'Anse Aux Meadows, Newfoundland.

Working the hypothesis that the Vikings could have travelled further south along the American coastline, she scanned an area  at Point Rosee, south western Newfoundland. She and her team excavated the site, and found traces of iron ore sl*g, and curious parallel dark lines in the soil, which could turn out to be ancient building turf walls.

The investigation is continuing, but it certainly appears that this could be the site of a Viking settlement.

For many years, there has been speculation on the Vikings travels to the New World. It's proven that they did reach the North American continent, but didn't stay too long due to hostile natives.

In my mind, it's highly possible, if not probable that the Vikings did, in fact, sail south along the coast. Where they stopped on their voyages and for how long, could be revealed by Sarah Parcak's ongoing investigation.


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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04 Dec 2018 at 05:55
This is a very important question and subject which inevitably leads to speculation...I for one have come to conclude that there are some useful answers to be found in the Ancient Astronaut Theory and write about it regularly for this reason in the hope that some day people will listen.

Here's a link to an Archive of Articles on the subject beginning with Human Origins...You can make up your own mind but I dont think the Theory is a complete waste of time:

https://afrikaiswoke.com/sumerian-anunnaki-gods/" rel="nofollow - https://afrikaiswoke.com/sumerian-anunnaki-gods/


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2018 at 11:58
Kinda reminds me of "Stargate" which is fun, but historically/scientifically speaking pretty bogus.  There are things that are mysteries from antiquity that we still haven't fathomed, but they don't involve our types of high tech appearing at the beginnings of human history.  There are granulation techniques for gold jewelry that we don't know how they did it.  That means, they could do it and we cannot.  The Incans fused together stones for walls, probably with some kind of acid, but we don't necessarily know.  That is why they say you cannot put a blade between the stones.  
A different perspective can be given by the Antikythera device which is a unique artifact, so is the Derveni papyrus, both of which give unique views of the ancient Greek world that we otherwise would not have.  The ancient astronaut theory seems to be wildly speculative, but if it gives elementary school children an interest in great antiquity, then great.  You Vhedza1, however, seem to be a little older than that age demographic.  It is fun in modern mythology, but personally I would not subscribe to it as a logical, rational account.  


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05 Dec 2018 at 12:05
I can see why you would say that but in reality despite dismissing the Theory as Pseudo-Science in general, you and most others don't actually address the claims it makes on specific issues...I don't think everything it says is correct but it does bring up some interesting questions and answers which have not been convincingly dismissed despite being denigrated...Denigration isn't logic or evidence though.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 08:12
We didn't see the now obvious puzzle pieces that make up the land masses. It would follow that the search for the missing link will be answered in an obvious way. The different races probablyly represent different hominids who evolved alongside weather conditions and an available diet that guided their physical appearance and abilities.
The joy in reading about these developments is indescribable! I understand why you want to know.


http://https://www.livescience.com/64189-neanderthals-and-humans-interbreeding.html" rel="nofollow - http://https://www.livescience.com/64189-neanderthals-and-humans-interbreeding.html
11Scientists initially thought that interbreeding among the two groups was more isolated to a particular place and time — specifically, when they encountered each other in western Eurasia shortly after modern humans left Africa. This idea stemmed from the fact that the genomes of modern humans from outside Africa are only about 2 percent Neanderthal, on average.

Subsequent research, however, has found that Neanderthal ancestry is 12 to 20 percent higher in modern East Asians compared to modern Europeans. [ https://www.livescience.com/63401-photos-neanderthal-denisovan-hybrid.html" rel="nofollow - In Images: The First Bone from a Neanderthal-Denisovan Hybrid ]



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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 09:05
The point is, I believe, that as soon as new facts are uncovered by science, they are quickly made redundant by even newer findings.

The sum of our knowledge about our own past is finite, AMH, Neanderthals and Denisovans all coming into play as part of the global admixture, but, are there other ancestors as yet undiscovered?

And, as I've posted in other topics, I don't accept the interpretations put on some petroglyphs, the methodology behind the construction of some quite fabulous buildings and cities, nor the similarities in construction at the opposite ends of the earth.

 


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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2018 at 10:40
I think ancients (and prehistorics) knew "things" that we cannot imagine.  What did they know?  Well in general we cannot imagine.  But, we get hints around the edges.  But, it is not space ships or nuclear war, for one thing those are for our era, the other thing is that we can imagine them.  I would be more inclined to accept Shamans running into other spirits (from other "places") in the astral plane then something as mundane as space ships making the pyramids.  We think that we could build a pyramid (Egyptian or otherwise), but the fact is, we couldn't organize an entire society to do it like they did.

If there had been a nuclear war in the last 10,000 years, in the last 20,000 years, the residual radiation would still be around.  Don't try to say everything about your supposed ancient high tech civilization, say one thing and establish that.  I would call it the ancient astronaut hypothesis, it never gets to the level of certainty of a theory, much less a law.  It seems like a rather shaky hypothesis.  But, you should realize that the burden of proof is not on the skeptic to prove it wrong, but the advocate to demonstrate it has some merit.  Don't take it personally, but I don't think you are there yet.

But, I really do find such stories as fitting for children, that is not as much as a dismissal as you might think.  Myths are real and true in their own way.  Not so much a factical way, but in the form of shaping and forming children's (and big children's) imaginations.  Pointing towards what is possible.

But I am not going to tell you what you want to hear, just because you want it.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2018 at 02:30
The burial mounds in Scotland just get bigger, you have the large neolithic burial mounds both becoming larger and more complex. It might be that all humans have realizations staggered over time. Through rare teachers from their own ranks who have or were born understanding how to relate spiritual truths. 
Have you heard the story of Scota? 

http://The%20feasibility%20of%20Egyptian%20travel%20to%20the%20British%20Isles%20in%20ancient%20times%20is%20borne%20out%20by%20modern%20archaeological%20findings.%20This%20occurred%20in%201937%20when%20two%20Egyptian%20sailing%20ships,%20dated%20to%20around%201400%20B.%20C.,%20were%20discovered%20in%20a%20Yorkshire%20estuary,%20on%20the%20north%20east%20coast%20of%20England.%20Moreover,%20Egyptian%20faience%20beads%20dating%20from%20the%20same%20period%20have%20been%20found%20in%20Scotland%20and%20other%20parts%20of%20the%20British%20Isles.%20%20Furthermore,%20the%20Rev.%20John%20Stirton%20in%20his%20essay%20The%20Celtic%20Church%20and%20the%20Influence%20of%20the%20East%20%281923%29%20observes:%20“The%20earliest%20type%20of%20monumental%20cross%20in%20Scotland%20is%20an%20Egyptian%20or%20Coptic%20wheel%20cross.%20It%20appears%20on%20several%20stones%20at%20Kirkmadrine%20in%20Wigtonshire,%20along%20with%20the%20Alpha%20and%20Omega..%20The%20Crux%20Ansata,%20the%20emblem%20of%20life%20in%20Egyptian%20hieroglyphics,%20is%20found%20on%20a%20stone%20at%20Nigg%20in%20Ross-shire,%20and%20on%20another%20at%20Ardboe,%20in%20Ireland.%20There%20are%20many%20symbols%20on%20the%20Celtic%20stones%20of%20Scotland%20which%20are%20still%20unexplained..%20The%20Crescent,%20the%20Serpent,%20and%20the%20Elephant%20must%20all%20be%20Eastern%20in%20origin,%20and%20these%20are%20commonly%20met%20with%20on%20the%20Celtic%20symbol-bearing%20stones.”" rel="nofollow - http://The feasibility of Egyptian travel to the British Isles in ancient times is borne out by modern archaeological findings. This occurred in 1937 when two Egyptian sailing ships, dated to around 1400 B. C., were discovered in a Yorkshire estuary, on the north east coast of England. Moreover, Egyptian faience beads dating from the same period have been found in Scotland and other parts of the British Isles. Furthermore, the Rev. John Stirton in his essay The Celtic Church and the Influence of the East (1923) observes: “The earliest type of monumental cross in Scotland is an Egyptian or Coptic wheel cross. It appears on several stones at Kirkmadrine in Wigtonshire, along with the Alpha and Omega.. The Crux Ansata, the emblem of life in Egyptian hieroglyphics, is found on a stone at Nigg in Ross-shire, and on another at Ardboe, in Ireland. There are many symbols on the Celtic stones of Scotland which are still unexplained.. The Crescent, the Serpent, and the Elephant must all be Eastern in origin, and these are commonly met with on the Celtic symbol-bearing stones.”


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2018 at 21:06
Quote Have you heard the story of Scota?

Yes, Irish History is one of my keen interests.

I have heard of Scota, daughter of Ptolemy, and I've read about Milesius (or Mil Espana) said to be one of the early conquerors of Ireland.

Just looking at the Milesius story, forget about the reports that he spied Ireland from a place in Europe, depending on which story one reads, Milesius was one of Ptolomey's generals, the "Espana" refers to his conquests in Spain, and his appointment as a governor.

While Franciscosan mocks me over some of my beliefs, he can't post evidence that I, or my sources are wrong.

I still think it probable that the Egyptians could have explored the eastern coast of Africa, and Europe by way of the Mediterranean Sea would have been an easy trip.


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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 07:18
toyomotor, look at Herodotus.  There is an account of, in lieu of execution, an officer struck a deal with the king that he would go around Africa.  I do not remember whether he rounded the horn, or not, but he came back and told the king that he had gone as far as he could go, and that the sun set in the North.  The king, thinking that he was an outrageous liar, had him executed.  It might have been the Egyptian King, and the officer probably was Egyptian or Phoenician.

But the open ocean would have been much more difficult then puttering around the Mediterranean.  I don't think "easy trip" would be the correct assessment.  Then again, I am a landlubber.

Look at Pytheas of Massalia (Marseilles, France) for a Greek who travelled to England, Scotland and maybe sighted Iceland then over to about Jutland.  He wasn't believed either about the long days and short nights.  He is 'refuted' in Strabo, the Geographer.  Probably 300s BC(?)

You are correct, I cannot prove a negative.  Often what you speculate about, is IMO tenuous at best.  Or sometimes, you may be correct, but we have no firm basis to say so.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2018 at 11:39
Yes, I speculate in order to get a response.

My beliefs are based upon reading about historic matters, sometimes rejecting the articles, sometimes accepting them. When I say rejecting, I mean such statements as "could not have possibly......"

Archaeology has proven me correct on some issues, while the jury is still out on others.

What we don't know is just how much we don't know about historic matters. Science is developing on an almost weekly basis, and we are learning that all of the past suppositions are not necessarily the case.

I keep and open mind on many issues (such as alien visits), and will continue to do so.



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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2018 at 10:42
I think that if aliens existed and if they could visit us, then they would be more advanced then we are, at least in many ways.  If aliens were 1000 years more advanced then we are, or 10,000 or 1,000,000 years then I think that they could be among us, and we would not know.  I am not just talking invisibility, I am talking about perceptual blindness on our part.  We like to think that we see the world, "as it is" but if you study perception, you will see that we don't.  Call it optical illusions or what not, the fact is we are blind to a lot of things, and if aliens were sufficiently advance, they could use those holes in our perception, to be around us without our knowledge.  If, after all, that was what they wanted to do.

So, toyomotor, if there were aliens among us, I am not sure we could ever know it, given that they (if they existed) would be more advanced than we are.  They might not be more advanced than we are, in certain ways, but if they got here, then chances are that they are advanced enough in someways to pull the wool of our eyes.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2018 at 17:40
They could well be very much more intelligent that AMH, who's to know?

I agree, they could be living among us, in the form of AMH of any country you want to name.

While alien existence may be a bit of a fantasy, it may well not be. Who's to say? 


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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2018 at 09:04
AMH,
Armadillos Mating with Hippos?
Augmented Machine Humans?

wth is amh? besides a tla?


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2018 at 21:49
Quote I think that if aliens existed and if they could visit us, then they would be more advanced then we are, at least in many ways.  If aliens were 1000 years more advanced then we are, or 10,000 or 1,000,000 years then I think that they could be among us, and we would not know.  I am not just talking invisibility, I am talking about perceptual blindness on our part.  We like to think that we see the world, "as it is" but if you study perception, you will see that we don't.  Call it optical illusions or what not, the fact is we are blind to a lot of things, and if aliens were sufficiently advance, they could use those holes in our perception, to be around us without our knowledge.  If, after all, that was what they wanted to do. So, toyomotor, if there were aliens among us, I am not sure we could ever know it, given that they (if they existed) would be more advanced than we are.  They might not be more advanced than we are, in certain ways, but if they got here, then chances are that they are advanced enough in someways to pull the wool of our eyes.
 
The problem is of course our own psychological anthropomorphisms which tend to make us see 'aliens' in certain categories.
 
Last night I watched one of those UFO programs which brought in scientists and other experts to dissect a UFO and figure out how it would work. I could not believe how narrow minded the result was. They did nothing more than extrapolate from our own technology and apply it it to our own parameters and restrictions. So their space flight was physical, made possible by machines that suppressed inertia and gravity, and quite revealing about how the scientific community are viewing these issues. What if the aliens had invented some kind of quantum polarisation? Then rapid speed and vector changes are technically possible because nothing is actually moving, merely 'tunnelling' short distances very rapidly. Just my own little speculation but I hope you see the point. I did like the way they pointed at the origin of 'flying saucers' which appears to be a phenomenon of public imagination as opposed to actual experience.
 
The truth is that if aliens exist and arrive here, they have their own agenda and opinions, or even thought processes, thus would not necessarily comply with our own ideas of relationships and motives. How do you seek a deal with a species that doesn't perceive or think in the same way? Whether they would be able to overwhelm us is largely paranoia however true, bearing in mind that vast fleets of alien military force are science fiction. There is a destabilising factor of a much more advanced species contacting another and this applies even if the arrivals are few in number - our own history shows how damaging such contact can be.
 
And about our own perceptions of reality - our preconceptions are geared to the internal image we observe with. The world we see is a product of our brain's filtering and composition of the raw data our senses provide. Thus the world around us has no actual appearance as such. We can perceive certain wavelengths of light reflecting off objects, but colour is a sensory trick our brains use to make our observation more useful for survival and interaction. Light is merely of a certain wavelength. Our brains colour it in. Also we're hampered by our own biological and social behaviours, and when imagining the alien we often do nothing more than extrapolate the human. After all, Star Trek has successfully depicted a humanoid universe for decades.


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http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2018 at 13:05
I think that you are explaining the universe as originating in dead matter, which is the lowest common denominator.  Maybe we should see the universe as alive.  Crystals being a basic organization of life, vegetative soul, animate soul, and rational soul.  I am not quite sure what you mean by "no actual appearance as such."  There are commonalities going back along way in the evolutionary tree, bilateral symmetry or before that, radial symmetry (starfish), I think aliens from elsewhere would have some of those commonalities with us.  The visible light spectrum has the coincidence that opaque things are usually solid (except clouds and fog), and transparent things are usually gas or liquid (things we can go through), except for ice.  It is a very useful "coincidence".  I think alien evolution would "react" to such an environs in a way similar to we do, by "seeing."  Although seeing might take up more (or less) epistemological center stage than it does for us.

Insects can see color, that is why flowers are so varied.

We developed physics because of astronomy and the wide open sky.  Would a race under permanent cloud cover be able to do so, (or an equivalent), I am not sure.

Ultimately we can not say what an alien would be like, nor what an alien's world (perception) would be like.  But we can say what it might be like.  We are starting to become more aware of our environs and how it has shaped us, likewise we can get some idea of how aliens might have been shaped by their environment.  If there are aliens, which considering there is one example of life in the universe, why do we think that makes it likely that there must be two or more?  I have a friend who says he would believe in God if we are it.  Personally, I don't see how that follows.

One way to look at Martin Heidegger's Being and Time is as a philosophical anthropology, what does it take to be a Dasein, a being (seen) for which there is a there (Da) or a that (Das).  Heidegger elsewhere says something interesting, he says that "we do not see, because we have eyes. but rather we have eyes, because we see."  Would aliens "see?", whatever that means I would say yes.    


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2018 at 02:21
A recent experiment shows the capacity of young chimpanzees to memorize a sequence of numbers, up to 19 digits, after seeing the number pattern for milliseconds. Scientists think the memory is necessary for plotting the location of branches so quick movement through the trees is possible. 

We may be seeing things for milliseconds but if we can't remember them it would be as if we had not seen. This may be too much Star Trek but the idea of a "cloaking " device has been explored extensively in science fiction and it has a ring of possibility

   https://www.nature.com/articles/s41565-017-0034-6" rel="nofollow - broadband achromatic metalens
http://https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2018/01/04/are-cloaking-devices-coming-metalens-shaped-light-may-lead-the-way/#545143be1b81" rel="nofollow - http://https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2018/01/04/are-cloaking-devices-coming-metalens-shaped-light-may-lead-the-way/#545143be1b81


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2018 at 07:30
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I think that you are explaining the universe as originating in dead matter, which is the lowest common denominator.  Maybe we should see the universe as alive.  Crystals being a basic organization of life, vegetative soul, animate soul, and rational soul.  I am not quite sure what you mean by "no actual appearance as such."  There are commonalities going back along way in the evolutionary tree, bilateral symmetry or before that, radial symmetry (starfish), I think aliens from elsewhere would have some of those commonalities with us.  The visible light spectrum has the coincidence that opaque things are usually solid (except clouds and fog), and transparent things are usually gas or liquid (things we can go through), except for ice.  It is a very useful "coincidence".  I think alien evolution would "react" to such an environs in a way similar to we do, by "seeing."  Although seeing might take up more (or less) epistemological center stage than it does for us.

All systems exist as as subsets of larger systems, and what are systems? The first biological creatures differentiated rough/smooth or uniform, nonuniform etc.  That began the creation of multiple systems. Patterns of patterns and systems of patterns. All life is pushing boundaries and those who break boundaries are at least temporarily edging out the competition. Our earth, the biological system, offers us a connection to a unified field of information. You could call it spirit and it would be accurate. 



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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2019 at 13:41
Quote All systems exist as as subsets of larger systems, and what are systems? The first biological creatures differentiated rough/smooth or uniform, nonuniform etc.  That began the creation of multiple systems. Patterns of patterns and systems of patterns. All life is pushing boundaries and those who break boundaries are at least temporarily edging out the competition. Our earth, the biological system, offers us a connection to a unified field of information. You could call it spirit and it would be accurate.

That may well be the case on Earth, but it ain't necessarily so if we assume that other inter-galactic life forms exist.

The evolution of earthly creatures has been tracked, studied and annotated by many recognised scientists, but we won't know about other life forms until one is found by humankind.

I don't know if other intergalactic life forms exist, but I'm not prepared to say that they don't.




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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 12:06
The laws of nature are the same everywhere.  The same forces would be at work in an alien environ, some to a lesser degree, some to a greater degree.  But, yes we are limited in our imagination.  As G'Kar said, "every culture has the equivalent of Swedish meatballs."  (Babylon 5)

There are people who study xenobiology, or in other words, what aliens might be like.  Hopefully they have a day job too.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 13:33
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

The laws of nature are the same everywhere.  The same forces would be at work in an alien environ, some to a lesser degree, some to a greater degree.  But, yes we are limited in our imagination.  As G'Kar said, "every culture has the equivalent of Swedish meatballs."  (Babylon 5)

There are people who study xenobiology, or in other words, what aliens might be like.  Hopefully they have a day job too.

We don't know that the laws of nature, as we know them, exist on other habitated planets.

And that's one thing we know for sure-we don't know.


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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 14:03
The laws of physics are uniform for the entire universe, now we might not know all the laws, but astronomically and physically, they are uniform.  Chemistry is uniform, and chemistry is divided into two parts, inorganic and organic chemistry.  Organic chemistry involves carbon which is exceptionally versatile in forming long complex molecules.  Silicon is a distant second as far as forming molecules for life.

Gravity, stellar fusion, magnetism, spectra, as far as we can see (both physically and conceptually) are uniform.  Physics sets the stage for chemistry, chemistry sets the stage for biology (as we know it).  Again, Silicon might be a possible basis for life, but it is nowhere as versatile as carbon.

Of course, there is the possibilities of other universes, with the rules being different there, but as far as  our universe is concerned, the laws are uniform, and if there are other multiverses,  while the rules might be different in other multiverses, we have no reason to suspect that within each different universe, the rules would be uniform (although different than ours) for that particular universe.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 15:25
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote All systems exist as as subsets of larger systems, and what are systems? The first biological creatures differentiated rough/smooth or uniform, nonuniform etc.  That began the creation of multiple systems. Patterns of patterns and systems of patterns. All life is pushing boundaries and those who break boundaries are at least temporarily edging out the competition. Our earth, the biological system, offers us a connection to a unified field of information. You could call it spirit and it would be accurate.

That may well be the case on Earth, but it ain't necessarily so if we assume that other inter-galactic life forms exist.

The evolution of earthly creatures has been tracked, studied and annotated by many recognised scientists, but we won't know about other life forms until one is found by humankind.

I don't know if other intergalactic life forms exist, but I'm not prepared to say that they don't.


Yes and intergalactic suggests at least a location that we can observe bc rules of matter have been understood to such an extent. 

We can't jump out of the system that we operate in unless we are using something other than matter like thought


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 11:06
Thinking and being are the same.  (Parmenides of Elea)
thinking is being (thinking is is).


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2019 at 11:15
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Thinking and being are the same.  (Parmenides of Elea)
thinking is being (thinking is is).

Quote I think, therefore I am.-René Descartes


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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 00:06
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Thinking and being are the same.  (Parmenides of Elea)
thinking is being (thinking is is).

Quote I think, therefore I am.-René Descartes
Oui monsieur. 
All these philosophers got pieces of the puzzles and humans have a grasp on the hidden reality very early on in civilizations IMHO. If we all have access to a collective field, a place that is accessed through desire, prayer or simple meditation then we can seed any reality that we like. The basic processes of evolution(thought experiments) will support successful endeavors in the macro, world, universe or the micro, individuated consciousness. 
Something as over done as a giraffes neck found a niche because of profitability. Bending light to use as cloaking device could be called an evolution in technology and the potential profitability is off the charts. New technologies affect the probability of future events but we don't see the picture fully unless its in our material reality.

What purpose would the intelligent life serve? Are we sending ourselves a message from the future?
I think it very likely that there are other life forms and that we will encounter them before we blow everything up.



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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 09:55
Just in the past few days, Astronomers have received short bursts of radio signals from outer space.

They haven't pinpointed exactly where from yet, not do they know the meaning, but they are not ruling out an alien life form.


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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 14:10
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Just in the past few days, Astronomers have received short bursts of radio signals from outer space.

They haven't pinpointed exactly where from yet, not do they know the meaning, but they are not ruling out an alien life form.
Yes the first signal happened a year after CHIME observatory was set up in Canada, not even six months later we have more signals. I am glad to see these developments, I think :)


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2019 at 01:24
Yes, I obviously missed the date when these transmissions were first heard.

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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2019 at 11:31
Hawking thought that aliens would be hostile and more advanced than us.  It could be like the Indians meeting the pilgrims, and getting smallpox.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2019 at 17:10
And we all know how that ended, don't we?

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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2019 at 00:46


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2019 at 02:54
There is a show on FNX(??) (first nations channel?) called Indians and Aliens.

Cool pictures.  But I see nothing that I can sink my teeth into, and chew.  (nothing substantial).  It would be nice if they actually gave a citation for Black Elk, and would pronounce 'Pleiades' correctly.  But neither of those make or break the report. 


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2019 at 22:40
Quote The laws of physics are uniform for the entire universe, now we might not know all the laws, but astronomically and physically, they are uniform.
Nope. They are not. They conform to conditions the universe prpvides and whilst our sciences are getting quite good at predictions and explanations, there are many anomalies we don't understand/ Even basic arithmetic has recently been criticised for basing itself on rules that are, basically, wrong. I don't know why. To me two plus two equals four and it works well enough for my needs - probably yours too seeing as you perceive a conformal steady state existence. But our science is based on what we understand thus far. There is plenty out there we don't know or understand which will affect the rules we currently apply. After all, physics seemed complete, conformal, and logical when Isaac Newton realised sitting under an apple tree in a gravitic field had potential consequences.
 
But consider the work of Einstein. His universe is fundamentally dynamic and mutable, since everything is relative and influenced by existence around it. Thus the mass of Earth warps space in such a way that gravity results. It predicts situations called singularities where physics as we understand it breaks down completely. Worse still, consider quantum mechanics. On the small scale, the universe becomes weird and unpredictable, a mass of conflicting and in some cases 'illegal' situations (such as partickles being in two places at once). The universe appears quite ordinary on the scale we observe it, but our observations are limited by our perceptions, preconceptions, communication, and lifespan. We don't observe all of it. Did you know that our galaxy has another galaxy orbiting it made largely of dark matter? No-one can actually see and no-one yet fully understands the implications.
 
And what is the next stage of understanding? A simple extrapolation of existing knowledge or another quantum leap of new laws, equations, television documentaries, and baffled students at universities? To say it won't happen is rather foolish. To say what will happen is probably foolish. Nothing dates faster than predictions of the future.
Quote  Chemistry is uniform, and chemistry is divided into two parts, inorganic and organic chemistry.  Organic chemistry involves carbon which is exceptionally versatile in forming long complex molecules.  Silicon is a distant second as far as forming molecules for life... 
...Again, Silicon might be a possible basis for life, but it is nowhere as versatile as carbon.
that's true for the conditions and chemical emphasis we find on Earth. Another world, with different conditions, different degrees of chemical sources, may well be suitable for life. I do agree that so far it appears chemistry in the galaxy is optimised around certain interactions. This would however be simply circumstantial.

Quote Gravity, stellar fusion, magnetism, spectra, as far as we can see (both physically and conceptually) are uniform.  Physics sets the stage for chemistry, chemistry sets the stage for biology (as we know it).
Gravity is not uniform in the slightest. It is affected by velocity for one thing. The faster you go, the heavier you get, and I'm not talking about momentum, there is a real property of 'drag' caused by mass under motion.


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http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 10:57
And yet, we have _an_ understanding of what a star is, what a planet is, what a galaxy is.  That is not to say that there are not exceptions to the rule, or tweaks of the rule, but spectrum analysis basically works, doppler shift analysis basically works, we may refine it, but we don't throw it out and throw up our hands in dismay of ever learning anything.

Newton is still pretty good for predicting orbits.  With Mercury, Newton is inadequate.  Mercury because it is close to the sun's gravity well (in the well?), doesn't follow Newton's predictions, or so I recall.

See I would say that gravity is fairly uniform, it is just not separate from velocity.  I imagine there is a relationship between mass and velocity.

recently saw a youtube video that argued, amongst other things, that physics constants are not entirely constant.  That sounds interesting, but that does not mean there is not some underlying regularity.  Does gravity slowly decline, increase, fluctuate?  I am not arguing that the rules don't change and our understanding with them, I am arguing that there are rules, there is order, and science depends on order.  That doesn't mean that there isn't chaos.  And that doesn't even mean that we can ultimately overcome chaos. 


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2019 at 11:41
The constant speed of light keeps us wondering whether the universe is finite. If the universe follows the biological patterns in nature then it must iterate on itself. Every cell that's ever been observed builds patterns upon iteration and oscillation. That is the cell's opportunity for differentiation and growth or evolution. The natural world is surely patterned on the larger universal paths of growth only scaled down and observable. How would the speed of light be constant without a finite system?

http://https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/10/14/ask-ethan-is-the-universe-finite-or-infinite/#5a4a10024967" rel="nofollow - http://https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/10/14/ask-ethan-is-the-universe-finite-or-infinite/#5a4a10024967
From constraints arising from both the cosmic microwave background and the large-scale structure of the Universe combined, we can conclude that if the Universe is finite and loops back in on itself, it needs to be at least 250 times the extent of the part we observe. Because we live in three dimensions, 250 times the radius means (250)3 times the volume, or more than 15 million times as much space. But, big as that is, it still isn't infinite. A lower bound of the Universe being at least 11 trillion light years in all directions is tremendous, but it's still finite.


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 22 Jan 2019 at 13:35
Quote How would the speed of light be constant without a finite system?

The same way that time is circular, not linear-if in fact it is circular, which I don't believe that it is. If light travelled in a never decreasing circle it's speed would be maintained.

See???Wink


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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2019 at 02:00
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote How would the speed of light be constant without a finite system?

The same way that time is circular, not linear-if in fact it is circular, which I don't believe that it is. If light travelled in a never decreasing circle it's speed would be maintained.

See???Wink
I fear do not see. Remember the old "Double Slit" experiment?
http://https://plus.maths.org/content/physics-minute-double-slit-experiment-0" rel="nofollow - http://https://plus.maths.org/content/physics-minute-double-slit-experiment-0


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2019 at 10:12
The Pyrrhonic sceptic rejected everything.  If you told him not to play on the highway, because he would get run over, he would question that, up to the point of being run over.  The academic sceptic believed that nothing was certain, but would believe in the conventional wisdom.

We know many things, or rather we think many things are so, to doubt them is foolish, and counterproductive.  Some of what we know is conscious, but a large part of it is subconscious.  I doubt that even a Pyrrhonic sceptic would not duck if a brick was thrown at him.  How would he know that the brick would hurt him if it hits him?  How would he know it would hit him (instead of turning into a bouquet of flowers)?

I think a more interesting question than do we really know?  Is how do we know?  Of course, one could say that 'we don't _really_ know, we _virtually_ know, but how silly is that?  Or how about define 'really' (in other words, define reality, give three examples).  As Robin Williams once said, "reality, wow, what a concept!"  Do we 'really' know reality?  How useful is such a question?


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 23:55
When looking at archaeology news headlines I'm staggered by the new discoveries and new ways of thinking about the past. The last article especially, wow- now we have a Denisovan Cave in Siberia and a baby girl hybrid of Denisovan and Neanderthal lineage.
Some old stories were so carefully held together without paper and ink (multiple flood stories, archetypal storytelling). Sometimes erased by war, bloody Romans! Yet now it seems hopeful that more light will be shed on persistent questions about human history. Would the past be important to us if we were not important to the past?
Don't we create the significance of history by being here to observe it? 

Archaeological Headlines By JESSICA E. SARACENI
Friday, February 1
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https://www.archaeology.org/news/7345-190201-old-kingdom-tombs" rel="nofollow - - Nine Tombs Uncovered in Upper Egypt

ASWAN, EGYPT— http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/9/40/322441/Heritage/Ancient-Egypt/Nine-Old-Kingdom-tombs-discovered-in-Upper-Egypts-.aspx" rel="nofollow - Ahram Online  reports that members of the Qubbet El-Hawa Research Project, led by Martin Bommas of Macquarie University, have uncovered six Old Kingdom mastaba tombs; two Old Kingdom shaft tombs, one of which has an intact shaft; and one rock-cut tomb containing multiple burials on the Nile’s west bank in Upper Egypt. Bommas said the burial chamber of one of the tombs was looted in antiquity by thieves who broke in through the tomb’s rear wall. The entrance to the tomb was carefully sealed with mud bricks. To read about another recent discovery in Egypt, go to “ https://www.archaeology.org/issues/324-features/top10/7204-egypt-saqqara-mummy-workshop" rel="nofollow - Mummy Workshop .”

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https://www.archaeology.org/news/7344-190201-guatemala-maya-nojpeten" rel="nofollow - - Maya Artifacts Recovered from Guatemala’s Lake Petén Itzá

KRAKÓW, POLAND— http://scienceinpoland.pap.pl/en/news/news%2C32650%2Cguatemala-polish-archaeologists-discovered-several-hundred-artefacts-holy-lake-maya" rel="nofollow - Science in Poland  reports that teams of Guatemalan and Polish researchers recovered several hundred Maya artifacts from Lake Petén Itzá, where the Classic period Maya capital of Nojpetén was located on Flores Island. Polish team leader Magdalena Krzemień of Jagiellonian University suggested some of the artifacts had been used in religious rituals to the north of the island, perhaps to honor Chaak, a rain god. For example, divers found three stacked bowls that had been placed on larger three-legged vessels, one of which held a nearly eight-inch-long obsidian blade. “Its presence is clearly associated with ritual and sacrifice,” Krzemień said. The top bowl in the stack held fragments of burned wood and obsidian. “It is a mystery how the Mayans were able to deposit the offering so that the vessels did not scatter over a larger surface,” added underwater archaeologist Mateusz Popek of Nicolaus Copernicus University. “We suspect that they were dropped to the bottom in a net.” To read in-depth about a Maya settlement in the same area called Nixtun-Ch’ich’, go to “ https://www.archaeology.org/issues/303-1807/features/6684-maya-urban-grid" rel="nofollow - The City at the Beginning of the World .”

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https://www.archaeology.org/news/7343-190201-spain-altamira-hands" rel="nofollow - - Three Hand Images Found in Spain’s Altamira Cave

SANTILLANA DEL MAR, SPAIN—According to an  https://elpais.com/elpais/2019/01/30/inenglish/1548850297_888022.html" rel="nofollow - El País  report, three previously unrecorded hand stencils have been found on the walls of northern Spain’s Altamira Cave by researchers from the Museum of Altamira and members of the Handpas Project. The painted hand images, which are in poor condition, are thought to be more than 20,000 years old. They were found during work to document Paleolithic paintings in the cave, including six other hand prints. In all, eight of the painted hands, which range in color from dark violet to red, are located on the ceiling of the Polychrome Room, where images of horses, steppe bison, a doe, and what may be a wild boar were also painted. The ninth hand painting is in the room farthest from the cave’s mouth, and is thought to be the impression of a child’s hand that was covered with black pigment. The newly discovered hand paintings were digitally photographed and added to a 3-D catalog of Paleolithic hand images in Europe assembled by members of the Handpas Project. For more, go to “ https://www.archaeology.org/issues/263-1707/from-the-trenches/5632-trenches-france-paleolithic-engraved-tablets" rel="nofollow - Late Paleolithic Masterpieces .”

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https://www.archaeology.org/news/7342-190201-greece-euboea-quarries" rel="nofollow - - Three Ancient Quarries Discovered on Greek Island

KARYSTOS, GREECE—According to  https://www.tornosnews.gr/en/greek-news/culture/34271-three-ancient-quarries-discovered-in-karystos-south-evia-during-installation-of-wind-parks.html" rel="nofollow - The Greek Reporter , three ancient quarries were identified during the construction of wind farms on the Greek island of Euboea. The first quarry, located at the southeastern tip of the island, consists of two main faces of rock that were carved into the side of a mountain. Researchers also found large blocks of marble and two columns scattered in the area. The second quarry, featuring two small rock faces and some carvings, was found on a rocky hillside near a main road. Rock chips left over from mining were also found at this site. To the northwest of this mine, archaeologists found a larger quarry with sheer faces of rock that had been carved into the hillside. Rock chips, three partially finished columns, and a circular structure where tools may have been washed were found on the ground at this quarry site. Marble from this area was used to build pillars in nearby Athens and was transported to Rome, where it can still be seen in the agora. To read about the recent discovery of a 1,700-year-old excerpt of the Odyssey in Greece, go to “ https://www.archaeology.org/issues/323-1901/features/7202-greece-olympia-odyssey-excerpt" rel="nofollow - Epic Find .”

MORE HEADLINES
Thursday, January 31
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https://www.archaeology.org/news/7340-190131-european-colonization-climate-change" rel="nofollow - - Colonization of the Americas May Have Cooled Global Climate

LONDON, UNITED KINGDOM— https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-47063973" rel="nofollow - BBC  reports that a team of scientists from University College London have determined that European colonization of the New World caused the death of so many indigenous people that the event, known as the “Great Dying,” may have impacted the world's climate. Led by geographer Alexander Koch, the team calculated that some 60 million people lived in the Americas before European contact, and that the population dropped to just five or six million within a hundred years as a result of newly introduced diseases, warfare, and social upheavel. The demographic collapse allowed cleared land equal to the area of France to be reclaimed by forest and savannah. The team hypothesizes that the new vegetation would have taken enough carbon from the atmosphere to cause global surface temperatures to fall, resulting in a cooling period known to history as the “Little Ice Age.” To read more about the Great Dying, go to “ https://www.archaeology.org/issues/298-1805/trenches/6524-trenches-mexico-colonization-salmonella" rel="nofollow - Conquistador Contagion .”

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https://www.archaeology.org/news/7341-190131-jamestown-church-foundations" rel="nofollow - - Wall of 1617 Jamestown Church Uncovered

JAMESTOWN, VIRGINIA—Archaeologists have uncovered the western wall of Jamestown's 1617 church, according to a report from the  https://www.dailypress.com/features/history/jamestown/dp-nws-jamestown-church-tower-20190124-story.html" rel="nofollow - Daily Press . The building hosted the first representative assembly meeting in European North America in 1619, and was the first of several churches built at the site. Excavators revealed the wall after stripping back a five-inch layer of concrete, brick, and dirt underneath the tower of a later seventeenth-century church, which still stands and is the sole remaining aboveground structure from Jamestown's 1607–1699 tenure as the captial of Virginia. Researchers expressed surprise that the 1617 church's foundations managed to survive intact throughout the construction of later buildings. The discovery allows them to finally document the complete original footprint. Archaeological investigations at the site were first undertaken by the Association for the Preservation of Virginia Antiquities at the turn of the twentieth century. To read more about archaeology at Jamestown, go to “ https://www.archaeology.org/issues/263-1707/from-the-trenches/5630-trenches-virginia-jamestown-tombstone" rel="nofollow - Knight Watch. ”

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https://www.archaeology.org/news/7338-190131-england-beer-brewing" rel="nofollow - - Evidence of Earliest British Beer Discovered

CAMBRIDGESHIRE, ENGLAND—According to a  https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-47042127" rel="nofollow - BBC  report, archaeologists have identified traces of the earliest known beer brewing in Britain during construction work on the A14 highway between the city of Cambridge and the market town of Huntingdon. They discovered tiny fragments of charred grains and bran dating as far back as 400 B.C. that, when analyzed under a microscope, exhibited signs of having gone through a fermentation process. The absence of fine flour among the fragments suggests the fragments are the residue of a beer-making process rather than the remnants of bread baking. A team of more than 200 excavators from Museum of London Archaeology Headland Infrastructure is at work on the massive A14 project, investigating 33 sites across nearly 900 acres. To read more about the archaeology of ancient brewing, go to “ https://archive.archaeology.org/1201/letter/fulacht_fiadh_ale_bronze_age_ireland.html" rel="nofollow - Letter from Ireland: Mystery of the Fulacht Fiadh .”

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https://www.archaeology.org/news/7339-190131-israel-basalt-bowl-marks" rel="nofollow - - Triangle Markings Studied in Chalcolithic Stone Bowls

HAIFA, ISRAEL—According to a report from  https://www.timesofisrael.com/haifa-u-archaeologists-uncover-mysterious-6500-year-old-triangle-code" rel="nofollow - The Times of Israel , mysterious incised triangular markings have been found on hundreds of basalt vessels unearthed in the Levant and dating to the Chalcolithic period, roughly 4500 to 3900 B.C. University of Haifa graduate student Rivka Chasan first noticed the odd marks on the inside rims of the stone bowls several years ago, and since then the small, downward-pointing triangles have been identified on vessels uncovered throughout much of present-day Israel. The triangles appear to have meant something to the people of the time, suggests Danny Rosenberg, also of the University of Haifa. “They’re all the same size, facing down, nearly always in the inside,” he said. “There were rules, and they were not just aesthetic rules. What they were for, we don’t yet know.” The researchers believe the vessels were produced in central places of manufacture and then transported to settlements for use. The basalt bowls were labor-intensive to make, and given that pottery, which can be worked much more quickly, was also in use at the time, the researchers believe the stone vessels must have held a traditional appeal. They are often found alongside other valuable items, such as ivory and copper artifacts. To read about decorated bowls from the American Southwest, go to “ https://www.archaeology.org/issues/89-1305/features/738-mimbres-bowls-southwest-collapse-reorganization" rel="nofollow - On the Trail of the Mimbres .”

Wednesday, January 30
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https://www.archaeology.org/news/7337-scientists-develop-new-dates-for-russia-s-denisova-cave" rel="nofollow - - Scientists Develop New Dates for Russia's Denisova Cave

JENA, GERMANY—A new timeline for the occupation of Denisova Cave has been created by teams of researchers led by Zenobia Jacobs and Richard Roberts of the University of Wollongong, and Tom Higham and Katerina Douka of the University of Oxford, according to a report in  https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/01/mysterious-human-relatives-moved-penthouse-siberian-cave-100000-years-earlier-thought" rel="nofollow - Science Magazine . Located in Russia’s Altai Mountains, Denisova Cave boasts high ceilings and three chambers overlooking the Anui River, which made it a desirable place for hominins to live. The studies used multiple methods, including optically stimulated luminescence and radiocarbon dating, to date the cave’s sediments, tools, and fossils. The new chronology suggests the Denisovans arrived in the cave more than 100,000 years earlier than previously thought, or about 287,000 years ago, and left about 55,000 years ago. Tools from the earliest layers look different from Neanderthal tools recovered from other caves in Siberia, and may have been crafted by Denisovans. Neanderthal remains in the cave were dated to between 193,000 and 97,000 years ago, and the remains of a child whose mother was a Neanderthal and father was a Denisovan were dated to between 118,100 and 79,100 years ago. Scientists still want to know who created the 43,000- to 49,000-year-old ornaments made of bone, teeth, ivory, and ostrich eggshell found in the cave. They resemble ornaments made by modern humans living in Eurasia, but no modern human remains have been found in Denisova Cave. Modern humans are known to have lived in Siberia around that time, however. To read more about the discovery of the child whose mother was a Neanderthal and father was a Denisovan, go to “ https://www.archaeology.org/issues/323-1901/features/7206-russia-neanderthal-denisovan-hybrid" rel="nofollow - Hominin Hybrid .”




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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2019 at 08:20
Vee-thanks for a great post.

That's right, almost on a weekly basis everything new is old again.

I still believe that there's a lot  more uncovering to do with respect to ancient seafarers and exploration.

Time will tell.


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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2019 at 21:17
Quote The constant speed of light keeps us wondering whether the universe is finite.
The Speed of Light is not constant. It maxes out at C, which is the figure we get for travel through space, but light travelling through translucent objects is slowed down considerably. I don't know if this is the same sort of thing or merely an effect of gravity, but light from the centre of the Sun takes a very long time to reach the surface (then takes eight minutes to reach us).
 
Quote See I would say that gravity is fairly uniform, it is just not separate from velocity.  I imagine there is a relationship between mass and velocity.
The relationship you imagine was established by Einstein. Mass increases with velocity and this would prevent acceleration beyond C, because infinite power would be required to overcome the momentum of infinite mass. it's also the reason why vehicles could not get close to C anyway.
 
By the way, monkeys in the New World. I missed that one. No biggie. Animal migration occurred just as much as human. In fact, during one interglacial period, their were monkeys in Britain. The Romans talk about using monkeys in their early judicial punishments indicating local populations.
 
Quote I think a more interesting question than do we really know?  Is how do we know?  Of course, one could say that 'we don't _really_ know, we _virtually_ know, but how silly is that?  Or how about define 'really' (in other words, define reality, give three examples).  As Robin Williams once said, "reality, wow, what a concept!"  Do we 'really' know reality?  How useful is such a question?
Everyone likes to think they have a grasp, and usually, a better grasp than anyone else, on reality, though in truth that concept revolves more about observation and wits than any true understanding.
 
The problem is that reality is possibly not the fixed standard we like to believe. Human beings like fixed standards, something solid we can relate too, whereas the unknown is scary. I've mentioned this before, but the world you see is not the world that exists in front of you. The image is generated by the brain, not the world outside. Our eyes are sensitive to light, or rather, a range of electromagnetic radiation, which sends a message to the brain which colours in the image to help us interpret what's out there. The world therefore has no actual appearance as such, and colour is merely a sensory trick that nature has kindly awarded us with, because light is simply light. It has no colour. The brain is coding various wavelengths into visual categories.
 
Some scientists go further. They now theorise that the universe is not entirely real at all, but is in fact some vast hologram based on information from the periphery. I can't recall why they believe this but it is a theoretical possibility based on what we know thus far.
 
Of course organised religion has always established what reality is. It helped take away the scary unknown element of the world we once experienced without understanding, or perhaps at least gave it a solid structure of a sort even if it remained scary. It also satisfies part of our social instinct to obey the group leader in that an all powerful being must be respected and heeded, which has proven very useful for the more exploitative members of humanity trough the ages.
 
What is my reality? Probably different to yours. But then, even in this day and age of world wide science and education, we still can't agree what's real.


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http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2019 at 00:36
"Some scientists go further. They now theorise that the universe is not entirely real at all, but is in fact some vast hologram based on information from the periphery. I can't recall why they believe this but it is a theoretical possibility based on what we know thus far."

The senses can be manipulated, our vision, spatial relations and optical anomalies occurring in nature all question the validity of our perception of the material world.
Also at the quantum level there are loops and the loops are voids just as the Buddhists believe-Emptiness




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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)



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