Print Page | Close Window

Soviet craft explode in North Korea

Printed From: WorldHistoria Forum
Category: REGIONAL HISTORY
Forum Name: East Asia
Forum Description: The Far East: China, Korea, Japan and other nearby civilizations
URL: http://www.worldhistoria.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=128814
Printed Date: 18 Sep 2019 at 20:28
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Soviet craft explode in North Korea
Posted By: literaryClarity
Subject: Soviet craft explode in North Korea
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2014 at 11:19
http://theweek.com/article/index/265873/north-koreas-military-is-falling-apart-mdash-is-kim-jong-uns-regime-next" rel="nofollow - http://theweek.com/article/index/265873/north-koreas-military-is-falling-apart-mdash-is-kim-jong-uns-regime-next
Very coincidental or very badly conditioned?  Soviet military craft which require maintenance and replacement parts in North Korea are not getting the attention they deserve.  It caused fatal crashes to be experienced one after the other.

Is this the end of North Korea's military threat over South Korea?

I believe so.


-------------
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm



Replies:
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2014 at 16:32
I disagree. The threat remains as long as they receive political international support from the PRC. It remains as long as insufficient sanctions on their nuc proliferation continues. And it remains as longs as food aid is given as a blackmail response to their military posturing.

The fact that their equipment is old and perhaps suffers from shortages does not mean it can not be replaced. Or upgraded or maintained by it's terrorist state partners and or proxy associates the PRC.


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2014 at 21:07
North Korea isn't going to put off by a few equipment failures. It will seek to generate its own, and rely - as it already does - on mass infantry tactics.

-------------
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: literaryClarity
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2014 at 00:40
What kind of a threat is that when the jets which are capable in a fight belong to the South Korean side and it becomes up to them to win the north back?

-------------
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2014 at 06:36
The answer there lies in the historical record. The PRC. They supported the Russian puppet created state once. They remain entirely capable of doing so again.

Iow. Massive upgrades. Massive maintenance assistance. And direct intervention. To maintain the Dprk. It remains in their strategic interests to allow their existence.

That....is why they remain a threat. Not because their tech is aging.


Posted By: literaryClarity
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2014 at 14:37
It's the North Korean's own military to blame.  It is a dead end because they don't have the infrastructure for a military.  Where would their revenue come from?  If you speculate the PRC will help the North Koreans revive their aged military so that it would be capable of mounting a successful operation against the south Koreans they'd have done this by now.  The PRC has more than enough old equipment.  Why don't they give it away to the North Koreans?


-------------
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2014 at 14:59
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

It's the North Korean's own military to blame.  It is a dead end because they don't have the infrastructure for a military.  Where would their revenue come from?  If you speculate the PRC will help the North Koreans revive their aged military so that it would be capable of mounting a successful operation against the south Koreans they'd have done this by now.  The PRC has more than enough old equipment.  Why don't they give it away to the North Koreans?
 
China has been critical of the DPRK recently, so I don't necessarily see the PRC bending over backwards to help North Korea much at all.
 
China has remained fairly stable in recent times, although the most recent claims to parts of the South China Sea are disturbing, while North Korea continues sabre rattling under the leadership of Young Leader, Kim Jung UN, who seems as ratty as his father and grandfather.
 
No one could be sure that North Korea wouldn't, at some stage, turn on its larger neighbour, the PRC, or even re-open the war with the south.


-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2014 at 15:54
"It's the North Korean's own military to blame."



**No if anyone's to blame it's the head of state and advisors who make up it's elitist, hardline communist doctrinal oligarchy. And their intransigence in policy that have even included retarding relations to a lesser degree; with their old allies the PRC.






  ''It is a dead end because they don't have the infrastructure for a military.''




**If by infrastructure you mean the means and mechanisms to produce or to site military equipment, or base construction/s past and present...then your research needs to get better.

As they do indeed have the infrastructure. I don't argue your premise that their equipment is aging or suffers in logistics. But their capabilities while limited yet remain formidable in the immediate sense for the neighbors to the south. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/25/how-strong-is-north-koreas-military-capabilities_n_3153691.html




''Where would their revenue come from?''




**Where it currently comes from; the PRC and other terrorist nation states trading agreements be they covert or overt. Your assuming their broke with no growth...both, while quite small, compared to others, ntl do exist.


http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/09/business/north-korea-economy-explainer/





  ''If you speculate the PRC will help the North Koreans revive their aged military so that it would be capable of mounting a successful operation against the south Koreans they'd have done this by now.'' 



**Because it's not in their interests to engage in a massive engagement with the United States over the South. viz aggression beyond a certain point by the North. And this might; and probably would, create tensions beyond the norm. If a sudden overt upgrade were conducted. Furthermore whose to say they have not clandestinely, to a point, done so. And those upgrades and munitions etc. are not currently, in stock, in the numerous underground facilities in use by the North.


The ability to garner updated humint has been notoriously difficult for the West reference the actual state of the aforementioned. Further more with a limited nuc-chem-bio capability; the North has more than adequate amounts of capabilities to wreak havoc for at least a 2-3 month confrontation without immediate or obvious displays of upgrades.

Whether you choose to believe it or not, accept or not, the PRC still calls the shots with the DPRK. And as I indicated previously, in it's interests, allows it's existence and it's maintenance.

http://www.cfr.org/china/china-north-korea-relationship/p11097

Review the links and if you disagree with the many experts on Sino-DPRK relations and alliance. Query them and tell them why after years of expertise in the field, their wrong and the DPRK is still not a threat. And that you disagree.




''The PRC has more than enough old equipment.  Why don't they give it away to the North Koreans?''





** Much of that equipment is in reserve for the PRC reserve forces. But that does not preclude the PRC's rapid ability to do so if and when they desire, again, if suits their interests. And as a matter of fact they do when the surreptitiousness of the exchange/upgrades/replacements is not revealed.


The only current ban is tech, reference Nuc and missile delivery systems proliferation. There are others who point to a defector's admission that the DPRK does not believe it will occur. But that is a single source. Hardly credible.

You seem to confuse the PRC's ability to do it versus when THEY might CHOOSE to do it. or increase what they already do. That's their decision.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/21/world/americas/suspected-sale-by-china-to-north-korea-stirs-concern.html?_r=0

And inadvertently, although long recognized, financial aid is given, also as noted earlier, when blackmail efforts are successful and foreign aid is siphoned of by the central government for the maintenance of the DPRK military.



Consequently it is foolish, if not dangerously delusional to believe them now as a 'paper tiger'. And not a serious threat to stability and peace in the region.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2014 at 15:57
''Consequently it is foolish, if not dangerously delusional to believe them now as a 'paper tiger'. And not a serious threat to stability and peace in the region.''

Matter of fact anyone who believes such is either woefully informed or possibly an agent of disinformation, covertly or overtly, of the PRC/DPRK.

Both are famous for it as are their agents.


Posted By: literaryClarity
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2014 at 18:05
I believe DPRK is a paper tiger.  Its political strength is pretty much nonexistent.  The only thing it negotiates with is saber rattling and which looks to be weak now.  Its economic power is vague and troublesome with handouts from PRC and it has nothing going for it in terms of cultural appeal or soft power.


-------------
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2014 at 19:48
Well than your alone.

As every major western intelligence agency and defense institutions not only disagree with that analysis; but experts in the fields of industrial production and trade-economic relations and international realpoltik do as well.

My advice?

More research and less subjective speculation. As, even given the links, you clearly either remain ill informed or obdurate. To the point of accepting any subject matter experts in the field as being more credible and more qualified to render analysis than your self.

Which means your promoting nonsense and or disinformation.

Either way I'm done here.



Posted By: literaryClarity
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2014 at 20:42
Gdp nominal for North Korea is ranked lower than Equatorial Guinea yet North Korea has 15 times the population.  Who in the world are you kidding?

-------------
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2014 at 22:13
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

I believe DPRK is a paper tiger.  Its political strength is pretty much nonexistent.  The only thing it negotiates with is saber rattling and which looks to be weak now.  Its economic power is vague and troublesome with handouts from PRC and it has nothing going for it in terms of cultural appeal or soft power.
 
A paper tiger maybe, but the DPRK is a very dangerous country, quite capable, and seemingly willing to provoke it's neighbours.
 
Because of the irrationality of Kim Jung Un, North Korea could lash out at any time, with tragic results for the region.
 
To think otherwise would be foolish.


-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2014 at 22:14
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

Gdp nominal for North Korea is ranked lower than Equatorial Guinea yet North Korea has 15 times the population.  Who in the world are you kidding?
 
We're not measuring GDP, we're talking potential for military recklessness.


-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 09 Aug 2014 at 22:15


-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: literaryClarity
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2014 at 17:20
Military recklessness?  What is that?  Like shooting yourself in the foot?  The entire gdp of North Korea as of 2011 was approximately 12 billion dollars.  The entire fleet of South Korean jets probably costs more than that in maintenance.


-------------
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2014 at 17:25
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

Military recklessness?  What is that?  Like shooting yourself in the foot?  The entire gdp of North Korea as of 2011 was approximately 12 billion dollars.  The entire fleet of South Korean jets probably costs more than that in maintenance.
 
A more reasonable analogy would perhaps be Military stupidity-firing off a rocket as a display of force against South Korea, and igniting a new war in the region.


-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: literaryClarity
Date Posted: 12 Aug 2014 at 17:49
Military stupidity lol Very good toyomotor

-------------
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2014 at 00:40
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

Military stupidity lol Very good toyomotor
 
Why do you persist in singling me out for your negative and caustic comments.
 
I've tried to engage you in sensible conversation recently, only to receive crap from you.
 
WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?


-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: literaryClarity
Date Posted: 13 Aug 2014 at 01:46
I think you are mistaken about me persisting in it.  I made one snappy remark in my own thread.  My other comments were reasonably fleshed out.  I actually thought you were correct regarding the state of the military in North Korea and as a result there was humor in what you said.  Military recklessness is more like military stupidity on the part of the North Koreans.


-------------
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm


Posted By: Yingui Lexicon
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2014 at 11:40
They have nuclear warheads, something which South Korea does not have. Having said that, nukes are used just for pushing around weight, rather than actual use. 


Posted By: Captain Vancouver
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2014 at 14:56
Originally posted by Yingui Lexicon Yingui Lexicon wrote:

They have nuclear warheads, something which South Korea does not have. Having said that, nukes are used just for pushing around weight, rather than actual use. 

Welcome to the forum! 

I tend to agree, weapons of mass destruction have far more utility in threat than in actual usage.


Posted By: literaryClarity
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2014 at 07:53
If the nuclear warhead North Korea has crashes back down to North Korea what kind of threat is there?

-------------
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2014 at 13:11
The mere fact that a secretive country, run by a junior meglomaniac has nuclear weapons should be in and of itself reason for considerable concern.
 
Kim Jung Un, to all appearances, is even more unstable than his father.


-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: literaryClarity
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 16:49
But that threat is already being acted upon by the extension of embargos which was the whole point of telling them to disarm and progress no further with the idealisms that they have.  You don't make up new threats to pacify just because you feel annoyed at the "little emperor".

-------------
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 17:31
Yeah, yeah,yeah. Like Kim Jung Un cares about embargos.
 
Like he hasn't fired off rockets, whether to intimidate, provoke or just to annoy his neighbours.
 
Who knows what Young Leader will come up with next?


-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: literaryClarity
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2014 at 20:54
So you are saying the embargos don't do anything and that they should be lifted?  The only reason North Koreans don't present a threat is because their economy is in shambles and the lack of monetary support for their military reflects the actual state of their military readiness.  If they were lifted then you can count on them being a threat within the region.  it's a sob story.  Actually lifting the embargoes might convince them to turn the other cheek and adopt a more global standard of living.


-------------
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 01:21
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

So you are saying the embargos don't do anything and that they should be lifted?  The only reason North Koreans don't present a threat is because their economy is in shambles and the lack of monetary support for their military reflects the actual state of their military readiness.  If they were lifted then you can count on them being a threat within the region.  it's a sob story.  Actually lifting the embargoes might convince them to turn the other cheek and adopt a more global standard of living.
 
Don't expect a reply from me on anything you post.


-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: literaryClarity
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 07:04
Okay

-------------
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm


Posted By: PeaceB
Date Posted: 31 May 2015 at 18:40
North Korea's cyber army is still strong. Much stronger than South Korea's at this moment. This is how North Korea hacked South Korean military secrets multiple times. It's also because South Korea has a very weak software culture in genenral.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2017 at 10:13
North Korea believes in Machiavelli's old adage that it is better to be feared than to be loved.  Is there anything that comes from North Korea that is not poisoned with bile?  I guess she has some natural resources, but not so much to be exceptionally gifted in that respect.  I never thought of diplomatic relations between North Korea and other countries, but with this assassination of the ruler's half-brother in Malaysia through the use of VX agent, I guess there is a chill between Malaysia and North Korea.  A few individuals are holed up in the North Korean Embassy, wanted for 'questioning' by Malaysia.  In retaliation North Korea is detaining Malaysian citizens from leaving their country.  Why would anyone want to be in North Korea in the first place?  Not much to love there, is there?


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2017 at 10:44
franciscosan

Sorry, can't see the relevance to the OP.


-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2017 at 10:55
The relevance is that North Korea is in the News, and it would be nice to start up some old threads and get some more traffic on the website.  The relevance is also to what was in the thread immediately before my new post.  But no, it doesn't hit the topic squarely on the head of the nail.

Do you have anything to add on North Korea?  If not that is okay, but you might try to get the ball rolling, here or somewhere else.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2017 at 13:59
franciscosan:-

I've raised the subject of North Korea in the past under the Heading of "Crazy Kim Jong Un".

My views haven't changed. North Korea is very poorly led by a tyranical meglomaniac who rose to the top purely on the fact that he was the previous leaders son. He has no apparent ability to lead or direct a country.

His execution of administration members for the most trivial of reasons should not be tolerated, and I'm very surprised that there hasn't been some sort of uprising, although the North Korean people have been conditioned by at least two generations of lunacy.

I've said in the past that Kim is capable of sparking a major conflict in the region by his firing of missiles towards Japan, and his threats against just about everybody in the region. I don't think that his former best friends, China, have much time for him either now due to his instability. I don't know the North Korean/Russian relationship, perhaps you could expand on that.




-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2017 at 19:35
I read a media report todays which claims that a Chinese official has called on both North Korea and the USA to take a step back and try and work out differences through diplomatic channels.

The Chinese official adds that he believes that the continual animosity between the two could lead to a regional war.

Meanwhile, it seems that Russia is still providing North Korea with modern, sophisticated armaments.

From http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-39214525
 
Quote US officials have dismissed China's suggestion that North Korea could halt its missile and nuclear test in exchange for a suspension of US military activity in the region.

The US state department said it was not "a viable deal" while the UN ambassador said North Korea was not "rational".

China's suggestion came after North Korea  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-39175704" rel="nofollow - launched four ballistic missiles, breaking international sanctions.

Meanwhile the US has begun deploying a missile defence shield in South Korea.

It is also conducting its annual large-scale drills with the South Korean military, which routinely infuriate North Korea.





-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2017 at 11:40
So, a piece of Russian technology explodes in North Korea!

The rocket was supplied to North Korea by Russia, but, I wonder, is it possible that the Russians, while appearing to be aiding North Korea, are really trying to slow it down by supplying North Korea with dud rockets?

They wouldn't do that you say? Oh yes they would. Two points-one is that Russia is notorious for it's lack of precision in manufacturing, quality control. The other point is that, having suspect rockets in their arsenal, Russia would rather sell them to North Korea than risk using them and being seen to fail yet again.

Could it be.....?


-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2017 at 09:27
No, fat chance, it is not likely.  On the other hand, I am sure that North Korean credit is not good for making many purchases, cash on the barrelhead for older technology, which being older has somewhat of a track record.  Then the North Koreans work off of those designs, and modify it.  I think Russian guidance systems have traditionally been behind that of the US, I imagine their rockets work fairly well, but of course, stuff gets old and wears out.  Scuds were a pretty tried, and true technology, they went up! then down! then boom!  as long as you are not too particular about where. I think the Korean missiles are developments off of Scuds.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2017 at 15:46
Quote No, fat chance, it is not likely.

Oh, and why is that?

Because Russia has always been upfrront and honest in it's dealings with other countries?

Because, with the massive armaments stockpile it has, it wouldn't take advantage of a country like North Korea which is embargoed by most nations?

Because it couldn't deflect blame for defective equipment on the end user?
 
I'm not so sure, and what could North Korea do if it was shown to have purchased defective equipment?


-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2017 at 11:50
North Korea, in defiance of the United Nations and of advice from it's neighbours, continues to fire off rockets with the intent of intimidating South Korea and others it considers to be enemies.

Many of the rockets have exploded in mid-air shortly after takeoff. 

I wonder if these were home built rockets, or were they also supplied by Russia. And if they were, is the Fat Kid getting a little frustrated with his friends defective weapons? If they were home built, I reckon there'd be some anxious heads in North Korea, as Kim has a reputation of executing those who displease him.

What is being done about Russia supplying North Korea with this type of weaponry anyway?




-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2017 at 14:14
There have been suggestions that the NoKo missiles have been interfered with. China could turn off the lights on NoKo, why not slow down the missile launches? 

Trump isn't telling China what to do but he's positioning  them to make the call on NoKo and act on KJU instead of US. 


-------------
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2017 at 17:44
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

There have been suggestions that the NoKo missiles have been interfered with. China could turn off the lights on NoKo, why not slow down the missile launches? 

Trump isn't telling China what to do but he's positioning  them to make the call on NoKo and act on KJU instead of US. 

1. I wouldn't be surprised if the missiles had been nobbled.

2. China most certainly could snuff NoKo, and nobbling the nukes is a good idea.

3. DJR and Xi Jinping have possibly struck an accord, on the QT of course. It seems the Mr Xi is growing more frustrated with KJU than ever, and therefore more likely to take action. His ordering of less coal from NoKo will hurt, but it's the people I feel sorry for, they suffer, KJU doesn't.


-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 01 May 2017 at 13:35
The world knows about this suffering and it knew about the concentration camps of WW2 before US entered the war. How do we rationalize an appeasement policy towards KJU? Don't we share a collective guilt for the last thirty years of looking the other way? 

-------------
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 01 May 2017 at 14:01
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

The world knows about this suffering and it knew about the concentration camps of WW2 before US entered the war. How do we rationalize an appeasement policy towards KJU? Don't we share a collective guilt for the last thirty years of looking the other way? 

Many are the sins of man.

It has been said that all that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing. And that's exactly what they've done for generations. Appeasement you say? I call it cowardly self interest.

Of course we share a collective guilt, time for the wailing, weeping, wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth to stop, or at least pause, and for the good ment to get off their bums and do something.

Likely? Nope!

Maybe there's hope for the New World Order yet.






-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 02 May 2017 at 09:38
In America, there is what is called the armchair quarterback.  He always knows what plays the football team should have done.  Or you can call it a backseat driver.  Twenty-twenty hindsight.

Some people don't seem to understand that resources are limited and that because of that you have to pick your fights.  They seem to believe that we have infinite potential and that everything will come easily if we just wish it to happen.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 02 May 2017 at 12:38
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

In America, there is what is called the armchair quarterback.  He always knows what plays the football team should have done.  Or you can call it a backseat driver.  Twenty-twenty hindsight.

Some people don't seem to understand that resources are limited and that because of that you have to pick your fights.  They seem to believe that we have infinite potential and that everything will come easily if we just wish it to happen.

Haven't you gone just a little off topic here?

But, I suppose you were led.


-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 02 May 2017 at 13:37
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

In America, there is what is called the armchair quarterback.  He always knows what plays the football team should have done.  Or you can call it a backseat driver.  Twenty-twenty hindsight.

Some people don't seem to understand that resources are limited and that because of that you have to pick your fights.  They seem to believe that we have infinite potential and that everything will come easily if we just wish it to happen.

Is it a crime to acknowledge what we should have done? Or do you just say to hell with it, let's make the same mistake again and again. Definition of insanity.


-------------
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 02 May 2017 at 16:07
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

In America, there is what is called the armchair quarterback.  He always knows what plays the football team should have done.  Or you can call it a backseat driver.  Twenty-twenty hindsight.

Some people don't seem to understand that resources are limited and that because of that you have to pick your fights.  They seem to believe that we have infinite potential and that everything will come easily if we just wish it to happen.

Is it a crime to acknowledge what we should have done? Or do you just say to hell with it, let's make the same mistake again and again. Definition of insanity.

Clap   Hug


-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 03 May 2017 at 13:37
What do you mean, what we should have done?  For every action there is potentially a benefit, and potentially a cost.  I think that you are underestimating the cost for intervention in North Korea.  We can't follow through for Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan, why do you think we have attention span to deal dealing with North Korea?  We start something, and generally don't follow through.  Or maybe you just think it is a matter of dropping a few bombs?

We have been kicking the can down the street, putting off dealing with it, which in itself is a way of dealing with it.  Maybe we need to deal with it now, but I sure as hell hope that President Trump is listening to the experts rather than the armchair quarterbacks.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 03 May 2017 at 15:36
franciscosan

"All that is required for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" and-
"When history is ignored, it's bound to repeat itself."

OK, so we can't undo the past, but we shouldn't put our heads in the sand and pretend that we did all that we could in 1951, because, as history has shown, we didn't. And why shouldn't we acknowledge that fact?

Sure, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, our war planners know that, but sometimes the political decision is to cut and run. The humanitarian decision may well have been to stay and fight.

I find your comment about attention span insulting to those who have gone to fight, and those who are currently fighting to make the world a better place. It's a matter of political will, start  the ball game and play it to the final whistle.

Putting off difficult decisions has a nasty habit of coming back and biting you on the bum.




-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 04 May 2017 at 10:14
I find that the American public has a very short attention span.  They don't seem able to take an extended war, probably because only one part of society is truly engaged in the war, and the rest go on, as if everything is normal.  I do not think that it is merely a failure of the leadership to explain the necessity of the war.  It is not the warriors that have a short attention.

You're right, we could have gotten into a war with China, instead of just a war with "volunteers."  We could have nuked China like McArthur wanted.  We could have gotten into war with Russia.  Truman could have just let McArthur's insubordination go, thus threatening the civilian leadership of the military in the US.
I still think that this is a matter of 20/20 hindsight.  McArthur was warned that if he pressed to the Yalu, the Chinese would get involved, he ignored the warning and the Chinese "volunteers' got involved.  That is a mistake that could have been handled better, but again 20/20 hindsight.  As far as not doing everything we "could have," do you have something concrete in mind?  We could do the Macarena but I don't think it would be effective.  Governments like North Korea have no problem with fighting a war that will kill 10-20% of their population off.  In itself, that is unacceptable to us, let alone the casualties it would cause us.

In the 80s people were scared of Reagan and the MAD doctrine, they were like 'we gotta do something!' little did they understand that something was being done, and in the HW Bush administration, the Soviet Union collapsed, partially because of what Reagan and others had done.

Of course, the 38th parallel is a wonderful nature preserve, so there are bonuses to everything.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 04 May 2017 at 12:51
franciscosan

Ah, I see it now. You're joking, right?

I didn't mention a war with China, I'm talking a push through North Korea to the point where they had to surrender. Deal with China diplomatically and edge Russia out of it.

As for Reagan, I thought that the American people were somewhat invigorated by Ronny Rockets' display of strength. And as you wrote, a lot of behind the scenes actions helped undermine Russia.

Of course the 38th parallel is a wonderful preserve, mined to the hilt, with artillery and armed troops from both sides presiding over it, tunnels beneath it. Yeah, all good fun!


-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 04 May 2017 at 13:17
Yes and humans generally don't go into the demilitarized zone, so the animals can thrive, no pesky humans to annoy them.  I imagine that every once in awhile Bambi triggers a landmine, and it goes BAMB!  Actually armed troops are not allowed in the DMZ, to go into the DMZ on our side, you have to be a black belt, in case you get into any fights with North Korean troops, which has happened.

You are assuming that we can separate China and Russia out of it, I think that is wishful thinking, it is their backyard.  War with China would probably be one of the biggest mistakes possible, but there is a whole range of reaction they could have to a US military expedition, that could still complicate things, and be unfavorable.
If anyone else in the world invaded North or South America, we (US) would feel obligated to get involved, it is called the Monroe doctrine which said [to Europe] keep out of our hemisphere.  I don't see how China would not have something to say (and do), or Russia for that matter, if their neighbor North Korea was invaded.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 04 May 2017 at 16:34
I didn't say that troops entered the DMZ, I know they don't and I know why.

Why do you always twist what I post?

As for China and Russia during the Korean War, who can say. They may have been convinced back in the early 1950's that the power of the US wasn't something they really wanted to tangle with.

It's speculation on my part of course, as it is on yours.

And we seem to have gone off topic-again!

The thread was about faulty weaponry apparently supplied to North Korea by Russia, and speculation on my part as to whether or not it could have been deliberate. Although, Russia has a reputation for poor product control, example, their nuclear submarines.




-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 05 May 2017 at 09:51
The weaponry may be faulty, and the weaponry may be supplied by Russia, but no, I don't think it is deliberately supplied _as_ faulty by Russia.  I don't really see the point in that kind of speculation.  The weaponry may be old, used and shabbily maintained, but they are weapons of war, and such things do sometimes, when they get old and are not maintained well, occasionally blow up.  But, Russian rockets get us to the space station these days, so I believe that they can do many things well, engineering-wise.  If you are concerned about Russian made fighters blowing up in the North Korean Army, you might check on what type of fighters those were and when were they originally made in the Soviet Union.  My guess is that they are not the latest weapon systems.  But arms are one thing that can supply Putin's Russia with cold, hard cash, so I doubt that he would jeopardize that by supplying North Korea with faulty arms.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 05 May 2017 at 11:39
Where did I mention fighters?

-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 06 May 2017 at 13:32
You might not have mentioned fighters, but the first post of this thread is an article about MiG 19 fighters falling out of the sky.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 06 May 2017 at 15:52
My apologies, you are correct.

I really hate it when I'm wrong, don't you?   Embarrassed


-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 07 May 2017 at 10:00
Really?  You hate it?  And it happens so often!Clap

No, I don't mind it when you are wrong....Wink

But even if the North Korean military is falling apart, it should worry us.
Focus on an external enemy is one response to internal problems.
North Korea wants nukes and ICBMs in order to blackmail others to prop up the regime.

I don't think that any North Korean fears of externally imposed regime change is realistic,
unlike maybe Iran.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 08 May 2017 at 09:57
be nice.
and try also to respond on topic, maybe.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 08 May 2017 at 10:07
Yes.

-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2017 at 19:09
Just a thought on the OP, what standard is the North Korean Military maintenance on their equipment?

Did the sale of the Russian craft come with a maintenance agreement?

Is Russia to blame, or is the fault of the NoKo military?

Were the aircraft owned/used by NoKo or Russia?




-------------
“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net