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Yes, we love wine for a looong time!

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Category: REGIONAL HISTORY
Forum Name: Ancient WANA to 550 BC
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Topic: Yes, we love wine for a looong time!
Posted By: Flipper
Subject: Yes, we love wine for a looong time!
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 05:42
It is a fact, our wine producing/drinking habits are at least 6000 years old! In Armenia the oldest winery was found!

More to read here: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/01/110111-oldest-wine-press-making-winery-armenia-science-ucla/ - http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/01/110111-oldest-wine-press-making-winery-armenia-science-ucla/


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FΑΝΑΚΤΟΥ ΜΙΔΑ ΓΟΝΟΣ
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Replies:
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 06:40
In vino veritas... *hiccup* gratias... *hiccup*


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 07:11
Ah, a narrative on potent potables (with all due apologies to Jeopardy), whose historical roots are older than agriculture itself!

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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 10:17


I have a lot of curiousity for the Native American wine. The Concord, for instance.
South America doesn't have native grapes.

Has anyone here drunk one of such wines?




Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 12:41
Sorry to disappoint you, Pinguin, but "Native Americans" did not originate any of the above varietals, all derived from vitis labrusca during the course of the 19th century. Despite the 16th century narrative of Arthur Barlowe dealing with Walter Raleigh's expedition of 1584 to the New World, where he wrote that the peoples of the area drank wine "while the grape lasteth" and other beverages he described as water "sodden with Ginger in it, and blacke Sinamone, and sometimes Sassafras, and diuers other wholesome and medicinable hearbes" the true identity of the beverages compiled by Barlowe are unknowable and his narrative rather suspect since no other early English adventurer made such a claim. Further the first full account by the English in the Northeast dealing with the Amerind larder--Thomas Harriot's Briefe and True Report of the New Found Land of Virginia (1586)--made no reference to any distilling of the grape although he did make mention of their eating the natural fruit. Of course that is not to say that the pre-Columbian Amerind did not make fermented beverages from other edibles, but sorry no reliable reports on the grape. Here have some balche to console your expectations. Of course you can always soak away your despondency in any of the variants known as chicha, but alas no wine.

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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: whalebreath
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 15:14
I'm overjoyed to hear that soon I'll be able to purchase wine from the fabled Republic of Georgia in my local stores.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 21:14
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Sorry to disappoint you, Pinguin, but "Native Americans" did not originate any of the above varietals, all derived from vitis labrusca during the course of the 19th century...


I said Native American wine; not wine produced by Native Americans. Another straw man?


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 21:54
Do you mean wine produced by native American grapes? Thanks to phylloxera pretty well all successful wine grapes are a European/American hybrid. Oddly enough, it occurs to me, since mostly it has European stock on American roots instead of the other way around.

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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 22:43
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Sorry to disappoint you, Pinguin, but "Native Americans" did not originate any of the above varietals, all derived from vitis labrusca during the course of the 19th century...


I said Native American wine; not wine produced by Native Americans. Another straw man?
 
Not when you put those capital letters into the equation...besides if you are going to discuss grapes then the distinction required involves a totally different vocabulary [i.e. wild, domestic, varietal etcetera]. And if you've ever tried to make wine from the wild grape of North America you would realize that the resulting product tastes like chalk! For someone with superficial acquaintances with much of the content on AE you sure intrude a lot with your irrelevant two-cents even in threads that are meant to be fun!


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 23:38
Chilean wine is quite excellent but its origin is quite besides the point here. I trust Armenian wine makers will seize this opportunity to market their products in Europe and North America, and maybe we can have a sampling. As of yet I have not seen any Armenian wines on the shelves, but maybe I haven't looked well enough.
 
What's interesting in extention of this discovery is how it affects the debate over the origin of wine, from where it first spread, how and when.


-------------
Sing, goddess, of Achilles' ruinous anger
Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans,
And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs
And birds of prey


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2011 at 23:46
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Do you mean wine produced by native American grapes? Thanks to phylloxera pretty well all successful wine grapes are a European/American hybrid. Oddly enough, it occurs to me, since mostly it has European stock on American roots instead of the other way around.


Strangely enough, today the only non-hybrid European grapes are in Chile. Drink Chilean wine! Wink


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 01:34
Good gracious Pinguin now you are an oenologist! Will surprises never end? We will overlook the fact that Chileans identified humble carmenere as merlot until a "frog" told them they were wrong in the 1990s! Now shall we talk about pais, the grape that is. I'll be sipping Madeira while I await your new outrage...

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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 04:55
In any case, if you want to drink real European wine you must go Chilean. The other wines are mutants ! LOL


Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 07:50
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

Chilean wine is quite excellent but its origin is quite besides the point here.


I like Chilean wine a lot, but I would like to taste it in Chile. In order to transfer wine over seas you need to put a lot of chemicals to avoid delivering vinegar. I'm sure we're loosing a lot of the original taste of Chilean wine in Europe.

Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:



I trust Armenian wine makers will seize this opportunity to market their products in Europe and North America, and maybe we can have a sampling. As of yet I have not seen any Armenian wines on the shelves, but maybe I haven't looked well enough.
 
What's interesting in extention of this discovery is how it affects the debate over the origin of wine, from where it first spread, how and when.


Well, I am not surprised. I would expect wine to have been produced close to where agriculture first started. Anatolia, Mesopotamia, eastern Mediterranean is where I would put my cents if I had to guess before this. The Nairi/Urartu lands had advanced agriculture (lake Van is there) very early anyway.




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FΑΝΑΚΤΟΥ ΜΙΔΑ ΓΟΝΟΣ
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Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 08:06
Sorry old boy...your clarets are green and, naturally are not real "clarets" at all. Appellation Controlle and all that. Might as well just go for M[ad] D[og] 20/20...
 
 
 
 
Now I do know a pair of old ladies who would love to offer you a glass of elderberry wine...the Brewsters just live up the street.


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 11:57
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:


I like Chilean wine a lot, but I would like to taste it in Chile. In order to transfer wine over seas you need to put a lot of chemicals to avoid delivering vinegar. I'm sure we're loosing a lot of the original taste of Chilean wine in Europe.


Confused
I don't agree. You guys buy the average good cheap wines and also the high prized ones.
In here, the common people get wine in tetrapacks! Confused







Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 11:59
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 


What's that? It isn't wine, of course, but---


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 12:33
Flipper, you might be interested in this snippet:
 

/news-and-announcements/885-winemaking-the-armenian-way.html - Winemaking the Armenian Way

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/01/110111-oldest-wine-press-making-winery-armenia-science-ucla/">From http://news.discovery.com/archaeology/winery-oldest-armenia-110111.html#mkcpgn=rssnws1

A group of archaeologists working in Armenia had something to toast in the new year: they announced that they had unearthed a surprisingly advanced winemaking operation, discovered in a cave hear a remote Armenian village. The operation dates back 6,000 years-making it the earliest known site in the world for wine-making with grapes!
 
http://archaeology.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=archaeology&cdn=education&tm=199&gps=234_253_1277_581&f=00&tt=13&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.museum.upenn.edu/new/exhibits/online_exhibits/wine/wineintro.html - http://archaeology.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=archaeology&cdn=education&tm=199&gps=234_253_1277_581&f=00&tt=13&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.museum.upenn.edu/new/exhibits/online_exhibits/wine/wineintro.html


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 13 Jan 2011 at 19:46
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Confused
I don't agree. You guys buy the average good cheap wines and also the high prized ones.
In here, the common people get wine in tetrapacks! Confused



 
Gato Negro, one of my least favourite wines ever.


-------------
Sing, goddess, of Achilles' ruinous anger
Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans,
And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs
And birds of prey


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 02:12
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Now I do know a pair of old ladies who would love to offer you a glass of elderberry wine...the Brewsters just live up the street.
 
And are also always ready with a comfortable resting place afterwards.
 
(I wonder how many orther people caught that. Tempus really fugit sometimes.)


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 05:54
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Confused
I don't agree. You guys buy the average good cheap wines and also the high prized ones.
In here, the common people get wine in tetrapacks! Confused





I think you missed my point. First of all I've been drinking Gato Negro mostly. What I meant was that e.g the same brand tastes better in Chile.


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FΑΝΑΚΤΟΥ ΜΙΔΑ ΓΟΝΟΣ
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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 05:56
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Flipper, you might be interested in this snippet:
 


Thanks DrG! I think there is something wrong with the links though.


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FΑΝΑΚΤΟΥ ΜΙΔΑ ΓΟΝΟΣ
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Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 11:16
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Confused
I don't agree. You guys buy the average good cheap wines and also the high prized ones.
In here, the common people get wine in tetrapacks! Confused



 
Gato Negro, one of my least favourite wines ever.


Yes, it is a good brand, but it tastes better in bottles




Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 11:18
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

...

I think you missed my point. First of all I've been drinking Gato Negro mostly. What I meant was that e.g the same brand tastes better in Chile.


I don't agree. I drunk Chilean brands abroad and they tasted the same to me. And I bet the most selected wines are hardly tasted by local Chileans. My example of wine in tetrapack package was to higlight the fact in Chile the masses buy cheapest wines that what is export. You can buy here 2 liters of Gato Negro for 2 bucks Confused. I know abroad you can't buy much with 10 dollars.


Posted By: whalebreath
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 13:49
I've had Chilean wine in Canada, Mexico, Colombia and Ecuador-it's tasted the same in all four countries-delicious.


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2011 at 16:00
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Flipper, you might be interested in this snippet:
 


Thanks DrG! I think there is something wrong with the links though.
 
Here's the News release:
 

/news-and-announcements/885-winemaking-the-armenian-way.html - Winemaking the Armenian Way

Vitis VininiferaA group of archaeologists working in Armenia had something to toast in the new year: they announced that they had unearthed a surprisingly advanced winemaking operation, discovered in a cave hear a remote Armenian village. The operation dates back 6,000 years-making it the earliest known site in the world for wine-making with grapes!

 

This exciting new discovery was reported in the peer-reviewed Journal of Archaeological Science on Tuesday, January 11, 2011. Journalists from the Associated Press, The New York Times, Washington Post, and National Geographic News Online, among others, contacted Penn Museum experts to get feedback and perspective on this latest discovery from Dr. Patrick E. McGovern, Scientific Director of the http://www.penn.museum/sites/biomoleculararchaeology/ - Biomolecular Archaeology Laboratory and author of the award-winning, Uncorking the Past: The Quest for Wine, Beer, and Other Alcoholic Beverages, Univ. California, 2010/2011, and from Dr. Naomi F. Miller, Research Project Manager, Near East Section, for http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/01/110111-oldest-wine-press-making-winery-armenia-science-ucla/ - National Geographic.

"99% of the wine we drink today stems from that earliest grapevine domestication event that now seems clearly to have taken place in that region."
- Dr. Pat McGovern



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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2011 at 03:52
Doc G. There was the Vitis Rotundifolia which them folks up in North Carolina call the Scuppernong, which is supposedly native to the region. But, no record of the local Amerindians drinking any wine prior to the arrival of Thunderbird, though perhaps some of those Lumbee landowners partook of wines shipped in from France back in Brett and Miss Charlotte's time.

For Penguin. Yes, the masses in Chile buy cheaper quality wines than those exported for sale. Indeed, sir, that is no accident, and it is precisely how Chile built up its reputation as a producer of quality wines. An Argentine friend once complained to me that the very best Argentine wines would only be found in their provinces of origin, while the second best ended up in B.A., and the dregs were exported, thereby giving Argentine wines an undeservedly mediocre reputation. Whereas, he noted, Chile did just the opposite and was reaping the rewards.


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2011 at 06:15
Oh no! Lirelou is attempting to open genetic warfare! Muscadine are something else entirely although those ingenious Spaniards at Saint Augustine in the 16th century--when they were not busy sicking Fido on the locals, if one listens to Pinguin and Carch--did cultivate the muscadine berry to make a port-like wine. Scuppernog of course also derives from the muscadine, but hey that was a century later and an added ingredient to that concoction is raisins!!LOL Vitis Rotundifolia is a Vitacaea vitis muscadinia and technically not a  Vitacaea vitis vinifera but this is not the first time we have encountered problems with old Linnaean taxonomy. Anyway by the early 19th century almost all the states of the South had muscadine "wine" in some form. Whether they were distributing this "firewater" to the Amerinds is quite doubtful.
 
Now, with all of this crowing over Chilean wines everyone has forgotten the multiplicity of private wineries scattered throughout the United States from Washington down to Texas, continuing a diversification seen earlier in late 19th century New York. Now not that I am a "wine snob" but the thought of imbibing anything that comes in a carton-like container brings the rank image of college freshmen guzzling anything that might give them a buzz! But then I would not purchase a claret from any place other than that of the Garonne Valley just as I would not sip any sherry not carrying the name Jerez! As for anything processed industrially in all that metal, give me a break. I do not consider the torturing of the palate in that manner healthy!Wink If that makes me a wine snob, so be it.


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2011 at 06:29
Actually, some Chilean wine companies own wineries in the U.S., and also foreigners own wineries in Chile. Wine is an international industry, but Chile has a priviledged climate for wines. That's all.



Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2011 at 06:42
Hey, don't look at me, Doc. I started off on Silver Satin ("it's charcoal filtered") and 'Thunder-chicken", and within the past few months have imbibed some very fine North Carolina genuine Corn 'shine', which was exceptionally smooth. However, when in Spain, I far prefer Duque de Alba, when in France, an Armagnac from Eauze, and when in Mexico, Tequila Siete Leguas, preferably when someone else is picking up the tab.Wink 

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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2011 at 06:54
I'll just simply sit back and enjoy the local wines here, produced on the left bank of the Moselle (the dry side). Sorry but I think you'll still find it hard to get anywhere else, though we did find it once at the Ritz Carlton in Atlanta.
 
If you do, go for the Riesling or the Pinot Gris. Avoid the Elbling unless you like German Moselles, which I suppose you may do, there being no accounting for taste.
 
(And yes we've drunk some rather good Chilean wines around here as a table red - local wines being mostly white.) 


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2011 at 09:09
And here I thought gcle would doff his Bowler Hat to Rumpole and his lauding of the distinctions between Chateau Thames Embankment and Chateau Fleet Street or the grand cellar to be found at Pommeroy's. But alas, he's gone Frog on us Wink!


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2011 at 22:08
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

 
Gato Negro, one of my least favourite wines ever.


Do you preffer "Concha y Toro"?


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2011 at 23:25
Women in Ireland seem to have an obsession with Chilean Cabernet Sauvignon and Chilean Sauvignon Blanc (I know, not even a single grape variety), that's all I'm ever asked for. We have a French, and Australian, and a Spanish on offer by the glass, but most of the local wine 'experts' contort their face at the very suggestion of them. Maybe Chilean wine just tastes better, but I'd wager it's more of a notion than anything else.


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2011 at 23:52
Dolph, Nah, it's probably just the name O'Higgins. The Paddies are a clannish lot. Offer them a choice in Cognac's and I'd bet they choose the Hennessey.


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2011 at 00:16
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Women in Ireland seem to have an obsession with Chilean Cabernet Sauvignon and Chilean Sauvignon Blanc (I know, not even a single grape variety), that's all I'm ever asked for. We have a French, and Australian, and a Spanish on offer by the glass, but most of the local wine 'experts' contort their face at the very suggestion of them. Maybe Chilean wine just tastes better, but I'd wager it's more of a notion than anything else.


Don't believe in 'experts'... Those snobish guys follow fashions.
We have been drinking our excellent Cabernet Sauvignon since the 19th century. These wines have been produced in large scale in the country though they are cheap, but that doesn't mean they are bad wines.
The new strategy of wine producers is to increase the prices of wines to capture more refinated drinkers. So, drink Chilean wines while they are still cheap. In the future you will have to pay many times more for the same stuff.


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 03:19
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Dolph, Nah, it's probably just the name O'Higgins. The Paddies are a clannish lot. Offer them a choice in Cognac's and I'd bet they choose the Hennessey.

I actually largely agree, with one exception. Most people prefer Gordon's Gin (A British brand) to Cork Dry Gin. By all accounts just a better gin. Plus, Irish Whiskeys are pretty tasty, so you can't blame us for that Smile


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 03:23
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:



Don't believe in 'experts'... Those snobish guys follow fashions.
We have been drinking our excellent Cabernet Sauvignon since the 19th century. These wines have been produced in large scale in the country though they are cheap, but that doesn't mean they are bad wines.
The new strategy of wine producers is to increase the prices of wines to capture more refinated drinkers. So, drink Chilean wines while they are still cheap. In the future you will have to pay many times more for the same stuff.

Well, if the Chilean producers have any sense, they won't start making their wines more expensive any time soon, because those fashions you rightly mention change very easily. French wine got a reputation for being more expensive and sales went down very quickly. As well, if the drinker chooses the wine for its price and not its taste, then the market you are actually capturing IS the snobs, not the refined tipplers.




Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 04:28
Anyways, Chilean wine has a natural quality. There will always be a market for it.


Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 04:50
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

As well, if the drinker chooses the wine for its price and not its taste, then the market you are actually capturing IS the snobs, not the refined tipplers.


For some reason the wine market has that stupidity...I recently found a 2.7 euro/liter wine from a winery that has the level of some 100euro bottled ones. Mainstream wines below 100 euros have simply no chance to this one.


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FΑΝΑΚΤΟΥ ΜΙΔΑ ΓΟΝΟΣ
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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2011 at 21:14
It's called 'chacum à son goût'.
 
Something that always puzzled me in the US (at least in the south) was that US wines on average were more expensive than French ones. Not by a great deal but in Atlanta I was paying $8.50 for a Mouton Rothschild and at least $12 for something the same quality from California.


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: TaylorS
Date Posted: 30 Jun 2012 at 15:51
I have read that the word "wine" is a wanderworter (a word that gets borrowed all over the place) that originated with a word from an early South-Caucasian language (perhaps the ancestor of Georgian). So all things seem to be pointing to that wine-making originated in the Caucasus.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30 Jun 2012 at 16:19
I LOVE wine! *hiccup hiccup*! My favorite is Chatea Le Vin Matin Cru, but I also like this brand:
 
I also like Sake, Masumi is my favorite brand:
 



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