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The Real Immigrants

Printed From: WorldHistoria Forum
Category: DEMILITARIZED ZONE
Forum Name: US Immigration
Forum Description: Illegal Immigration into the USA
URL: http://www.worldhistoria.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=124628
Printed Date: 26 Nov 2020 at 06:09
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Topic: The Real Immigrants
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Subject: The Real Immigrants
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 15:07
Opened as per request
Originally posted by easternbul easternbul wrote:

Honestly my friend,but who are the real immigrants?I mean the Mexicans lived their since thousand of years and now they are ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS?Can not understand it.In my oppinion the true immigrants were coming from Europe.



Replies:
Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 22:26
The above mentioned is vividly illustrated in this little video. Here a Native American girl discusses these things with some people demonstrating to ban what they call illegal immigration:
 
MEXICAN NATIVE CHICK SAYING F*** EUROPEAN PEOPLE
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QJ13a_MXJA - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QJ13a_MXJA
 
 


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2009 at 00:01
^^^ Now that's evidence!


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2009 at 00:22
Boy everybody seems to have just too much time on their hands...

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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2009 at 02:43
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Boy everybody seems to have just too much time on their hands...
 
 
Well, drgonzaga, it seems that you have hit the proverbial nail on its requisite t├ęte, vis a vis a contrario a priori ab initio! Such perspicaciousness ab ovo usque ad mala reminds one of the opacity of aqua, water by another name, but altogether more Gordian in expression! Alis grave nil, alis grave nil my friend Smile
 
 
Now that's called having too much time on my hands Big smile
 
 


Posted By: Emperor Barbarossa
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2009 at 10:05
Come on, it's okay to just move onto a peace of land illegally without any plans of citizenship because of your ancestors? I'm not against keeping these people and allowing them to become American citizens (and reforming American immigration laws), but it is disgusting that they think that they are above laws and treaties. I wish I could just move into Italy or Scotland and just mooch off of them because my ancestors lived there.

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Pittsburgh, City of Champions


Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2009 at 20:01

This is exactly what is happening in Palestine right now. The US/EU support the jews "right of return" to a land they were supposed to have lived in some 2000 years ago on while denying Palestinians their rights on their own land they already live in.

 
 
 
Al-Jassas

 



Posted By: Emperor Barbarossa
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 00:30
No, Al-Jassas, it is not her land. It was her ancestors' land from 500 years ago. It is the same, as you say, as the Jews are doing in Palestine (I have always compared what Israel to Palestine the same as what whites in my own country did to the natives, even with the Natives killing white civilians just as Palestinian have done). Israel's creation was one of the most inane things the West has ever done in the Middle East. It was clearly imperialist in its nature.The Holocaust excuse does not work. How can a people who were just abuse and killed literally by the trainload then walk onto a piece of foreign land, alienate and kill many of its inhabitants, and then think it is morally okay? It's sickening. The Holocaust was a disgusting act of genocide, but the Zionists shamed it by using it as a justification for imperialist takeover. However, today we can't just expel six million people from a plot of land over something wrong that happened three generations ago, the only logical thing to do is to demolish Israeli settlements and give Palestinians a chance at a peaceful state that will co-exist with Israel.

It is this arrogance of both the Jewish settlers, who think that all you have to do to own a piece of land is to circumcise your kids on it, and these illegal immigrants, who mooch off of a nation illegally with no plans of really contributing to the society in which they live. I can't believe that the children of illegal immigrants, American citizens, can get free college. Most Americans in the middle class just take out student loans and go into debt to pay off later. One of my friends, who was to be my roommate but had to withdraw due to his financial situation, doesn't get free college. He gets to go to our community college and still go into debt. These children could apply for generous financial aid and still be able to go into manageable just like every other American child, but instead get a free ride. It's just ridiculous.

Please, Al Jassas, realize that not all Americans are Zionists like Mike Huckabee. Many of us have sympathy for the Palestinian people (the majority that do not blow up children). There are many Jews in Israel who hold the same views as me on the two-state solution, and it's disgusting that some in the Jewish community call anyone who doesn't agree with aggressive imperialism against the Palestinian people a self-hating Jew.


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Pittsburgh, City of Champions


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 08:10

The problem with American point of view is that it is usually shortsighted. What we have with Latin America immigration is not something between the so called "White" man (some are quite dark, actually; look Obama) and Mexican natives returning home. What American see is something happening ALL OVER the Americas: Haitians move to Dominican Republic, Bolivians to Argentina, Peruvians to Chile, Amazonian people to Brazil cities, Central Americans to Mexico!!

Those movements are motivated simply by economical reasons and nothing else.


Posted By: King Kang of Mu
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 08:55
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

What American see is something happening ALL OVER the Americas: Haitians move to Dominican Republic, Bolivians to Argentina, Peruvians to Chile, Amazonian people to Brazil cities, Central Americans to Mexico!!

 
 
I'm sorry but that is just how you see it, pinguin.  Most of Americans are not aware of such movements nor they care even if they are.  And most of them don't even care to locate half of those countries on a map.  Most of them are annoyed with Chavez because he's vocal, some of them are aware of Lula and Evo Morales, but that's as far as they go for 99% of them.  I know.  I live here.


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Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of non-thought.

Milan Kundera


Posted By: AksumVanguard
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 09:07
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

The problem with American point of view is that it is usually shortsighted. What we have with Latin America immigration is not something between the so called "White" man (some are quite dark, actually; look Obama) and Mexican natives returning home. What American see is something happening ALL OVER the Americas: Haitians move to Dominican Republic, Bolivians to Argentina, Peruvians to Chile, Amazonian people to Brazil cities, Central Americans to Mexico!!

Those movements are motivated simply by economical reasons and nothing else.


I agree it is nonsense to loath over the vast influx of immigrants when the US probably needs more prospect workers in all industries.  Contrary to popular belief not all immigrants are disfortunate and unskilled labor. Some do have degrees and if the US is wise enough, they would probably put this use to good hands.

As the Latino population is now 13% the African American of the US will no longer be seen as the "black sheep"no pun intended.

Some of immigrants were seen as threats to the working blue collar class as with the "Chinese Exclusion Acts" forbid anymore incoming chinese immigrants to come in or open up a business in the US.




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Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 09:33
Originally posted by King Kang of Mu King Kang of Mu wrote:

...I'm sorry but that is just how you see it, pinguin.  Most of Americans are not aware of such movements nor they care even if they are.  And most of them don't even care to locate half of those countries on a map.  Most of them are annoyed with Chavez because he's vocal, some of them are aware of Lula and Evo Morales, but that's as far as they go for 99% of them.  I know.  I live here.
 
Most Americans aren't aware of how the world is either. So, I am not sorry (why should I?).
Never saw one of these maps? LOL
 
 


Posted By: King Kang of Mu
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 10:26
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by King Kang of Mu King Kang of Mu wrote:

...I'm sorry but that is just how you see it, pinguin.  Most of Americans are not aware of such movements nor they care even if they are.  And most of them don't even care to locate half of those countries on a map.  Most of them are annoyed with Chavez because he's vocal, some of them are aware of Lula and Evo Morales, but that's as far as they go for 99% of them.  I know.  I live here.
 
Most Americans aren't aware of how the world is either. So, I am not sorry (why should I?).
Never saw one of these maps? LOL
 
 
  
 
 
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
 
Very funny pinguin!
 
Right after I made that post, I realised that you meant 'Americans' as more like the people in both continents, not just in U.S.  Now that makes much more sense.  I just assumed that because I thought this thread is about just U.S immigrant, but it doesn't have to be and even if it is, your point is still valid and relevant.  And I was just echoing your point without realizing it. No disagreement here no you should not be sorry, just me.  and Please forgive my transgression.  I guess it was just me that who was shortsighted trying to impose 'how I see it' to the others.Embarrassed   I'm grateful that you didn't get too upset with me.
 
those maps arewithout real too funny.  i'm gonna have save it and show them to my other 'American' friends.  thanks pinguin and take care.  


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Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of non-thought.

Milan Kundera


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 12:03
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
Most Americans aren't aware of how the world is either. So, I am not sorry (why should I?).
Never saw one of these maps? LOL
 
 
 
Thank you Pinguin for posting those maps, they are really hilarious. Very good.


Posted By: Easternbul
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2009 at 23:21
Thanks Pinguin these pictures are awsomeLOL

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Posted By: Emperor Barbarossa
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2009 at 03:24
"Those movements are motivated simply by economical reasons and nothing else."

Very true. These movements aren't any "reconquista" of their "land," (many are not full Native blood, and none of them actually lived on the land in question, so their claim goes out the window). As a hard working, average American, you feel bad for these people up until the point that they illegally entered a country without any sort of attempt at becoming citizens of it. They cost Americans billions of dollars a year and don't contribute. Note to foreign readers, illegal immigration DOES NOT EQUAL legal immigration. Too many times non-Americans look to this debate as being between anti-immigrant racists and everybody else. It's not. Legal immigration is great for our economy, because these people pay income income taxes and at least pay for the care that they receive. Also, I was unaware of other sorts of movements elsewhere in the Americas, which I'm glad you brought up.

As for your maps, just plain hilarious. I love the Reagan one the best.


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Pittsburgh, City of Champions


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2009 at 18:57
One shall not forget that some parts of what is now the USA were Mexican much later then 500 years ago as for example California and Mexico. One shall also not forget that some Native Americans fled over to Mexico to avoid persecution from USA. So some of these peoples descendants really ought to have the right to come to the USA their ancestors were driven out from.
But it is of course better they are given legal status then being forced to do it illegally.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2009 at 00:41
I don't find the difference between legal or illegal immigration.
After all every single European and European descendent is in the Americas illegally.


Posted By: Prince of Zeila
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2009 at 07:24
Those mapsLOL, well doneClap

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Posted By: es_bih
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2009 at 10:17
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I don't find the difference between legal or illegal immigration.
After all every single European and European descendent is in the Americas illegally.

All things considered every person living in the Americas is here through some sort of immigration process. The natives didn't appear out of thin air either. 




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http://postimage.org/" rel="nofollow - adult photo sharing


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2009 at 10:42
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

One shall not forget that some parts of what is now the USA were Mexican much later then 500 years ago as for example California and Mexico. One shall also not forget that some Native Americans fled over to Mexico to avoid persecution from USA. So some of these peoples descendants really ought to have the right to come to the USA their ancestors were driven out from.
But it is of course better they are given legal status then being forced to do it illegally.
 
Only someone totally ignorant of Texas history would take the time to post such drivel. Now as for this cross-border flight, Carch, perhaps you should take time to read a certain clause in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo...if your sensibilities can get past its opening affirmation: In the name of  Almighty God...
 
If you do then read on:
 
Article XI:
Considering that a great part of the territories, which, by the present treaty, are to be comprehended for the future within the limits of the United States, is now occupied by savage tribes, who will hereafter be under the exclusive control of the Government of the United States, and whose incursions within the territory of Mexico would be prejudicial in the extreme, it is solemnly agreed that all such incursions shall be forcibly restrained by the Government of the United States whensoever this may be necessary; and that when they cannot be prevented, they shall be punished by the said Government, and satisfaction for the same shall be exacted all in the same way, and with equal diligence and energy, as if the same incursions were meditated or committed within its own territory, against its own citizens.

It shall not be lawful, under any pretext whatever, for any inhabitant of the United States to purchase or acquire any Mexican, or any foreigner residing in Mexico, who may have been captured by Indians inhabiting the territory of either of the two republics; nor to purchase or acquire horses, mules, cattle, or property of any kind, stolen within Mexican territory by such Indians.

And in the event of any person or persons, captured within Mexican territory by Indians, being carried into the territory of the United States, the Government of the latter engages and binds itself, in the most solemn manner, so soon as it shall know of such captives being within its territory, and shall be able so to do, through the faithful exercise of its influence and power, to rescue them and return them to their country, or deliver them to the agent or representative of the Mexican Government. The Mexican authorities will, as far as practicable, give to the Government of the United States notice of such captures; and its agents shall pay the expenses incurred in the maintenance and transmission of the rescued captives; who, in the mean time, shall be treated with the utmost hospitality by the American authorities at the place where they may be. But if the Government of the United States, before receiving such notice from Mexico, should obtain intelligence, through any other channel, of the existence of Mexican captives within its territory, it will proceed forthwith to effect their release and delivery to the Mexican agent, as above stipulated.

For the purpose of giving to these stipulations the fullest possible efficacy, thereby affording the security and redress demanded by their true spirit and intent, the Government of the United States will now and hereafter pass, without unnecessary delay, and always vigilantly enforce, such laws as the nature of the subject may require. And, finally, the sacredness of this obligation shall never be lost sight of by the said Government, when providing for the removal of the Indians from any portion of the said territories, or for its being settled by citizens of the United States; but, on the contrary, special care shall then be taken not to place its Indian occupants under the necessity of seeking new homes, by committing those invasions which the United States have solemnly obliged themselves to restrain.


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2009 at 11:58
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

...All things considered every person living in the Americas is here through some sort of immigration process. The natives didn't appear out of thin air either. 
 
Chinese didn't appear in China, either. Confused
 
In any case, Natives arrived FIRST. Ten of thousand of years before the ones that arrived second.


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2009 at 22:45
drgonzaga
 
The long excerpt you posted is rather irrelevant to the things I talked about. I talked about indians who fled from US army into Mexico, other times they fled from Mexico into US territory. They lived in states that changed from Mexican to US supremacy but they still belonged there on both sides of the borders. Some treaties written by their supressors do not alter that fact.
You are just laying smoke screens to obsure this matter.
 
If some of the descendants of these natives today live on the Mexican side of the border they should have all right to move into the US, to places that were a part of their old homeland.


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2009 at 23:37
Carch thy name is Obscurantism Redux as thou hauntest the parapets of Elsinore. For one thing, you are totally uninformed as to the habits of residents within the border zone between Mexico and the United States. They cross freely at all times between countries and have done so for generations...the border-leapers originate elsewhere. Hence your howls and chain-clanking intimidate no one. Simply put, you are totally ignorant as to the actual conditions "on-the-ground" and go off into irrelevant tangents that simply underscore how unfamiliar you really are with the topic.  
 
Besides, as the Pinguin is so fond of iterating: Meddler go home! Better yet, arrange for the immediate issuance of Swedish visas so as to "rescue" these purported examples of border transhumancy. As for the smoke...you have belched more of the the stuff than Huitzilipochtli!
 
Pick up a book on the sociology of border areas so as to realize that on this subject you do not know diddly! Pretty soon we will be awash with all the gobble-gobble over the purported "Mexican Reconquista". I could get absolutely wonky with you and utter the name Jorge A. Bustamante, but then you've already intimated you do not wish to hear from any of the "suppressors".
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9lz5fBCUy4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9lz5fBCUy4


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2009 at 02:17
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Carch thy name is Obscurantism Redux as thou hauntest the parapets of Elsinore. For one thing, you are totally uninformed as to the habits of residents within the border zone between Mexico and the United States. They cross freely at all times between countries and have done so for generations...the border-leapers originate elsewhere. Hence your howls and chain-clanking intimidate no one. Simply put, you are totally ignorant as to the actual conditions "on-the-ground" and go off into irrelevant tangents that simply underscore how unfamiliar you really are with the topic.  
 
Besides, as the Pinguin is so fond of iterating: Meddler go home! Better yet, arrange for the immediate issuance of Swedish visas so as to "rescue" these purported examples of border transhumancy. As for the smoke...you have belched more of the the stuff than Huitzilipochtli!
 
Pick up a book on the sociology of border areas so as to realize that on this subject you do not know diddly! Pretty soon we will be awash with all the gobble-gobble over the purported "Mexican Reconquista". I could get absolutely wonky with you and utter the name Jorge A. Bustamante, but then you've already intimated you do not wish to hear from any of the "suppressors".
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9lz5fBCUy4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9lz5fBCUy4
 
 
Does all the above mentioned mean that you for sure know that noone who crosses the border in a so called illegal way could be a descendant from those native Americans who in past times where chased by army troops from both Mexico and the US back and forth over the border? Do you know absolutely for sure that noone of todays immigrants ever had ancestors who where native Americans that once could have lived in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona or California?
 


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2009 at 07:54
Guess I'll have to speak with a representative of the Tohono-O'odham Nation, whose people do straddle the border between the United States and Mexico and for which the "illegals" do constitute a critical problem as the coyotes constantly violate their lands.
 
http://www.desertinvasion.us/invasion_pictures/invasion_tohono.html - http://www.desertinvasion.us/invasion_pictures/invasion_tohono.html
 
It is obvious that you do not even grasp the ethnic composition of US Border Patrol agents in this part of the world nor have any idea of the various Amerind nations common to both the US and Mexico. In fact, I would bet that you are ignorant of the long literature on this subject including the classic http://www.discoverseaz.com/History/Capt_Maus.html - A Campaign in the Sierra Madre, 1885-1886, a narrative by Lieutenant Marion P. Maus, First Infantry, U.S. Army,with illustrations by Frederic Remington.
 
What is worse, despite your tedious exposition on "indigenous tribes" elsewhere, is the fact that we are not speaking of any type of Amerind when discussing this social problem. Instead, we are speaking of the urban poor or worse, the criminal element, from very modern settings who in many ways would feel insulted if you called them "indios"!  
 


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2009 at 09:48

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Guess I'll have to speak with a representative of the Tohono-O'odham Nation, whose people do straddle the border between the United States and Mexico and for which the "illegals" do constitute a critical problem as the coyotes constantly violate their lands.

 

http://www.desertinvasion.us/invasion_pictures/invasion_tohono.html - http://www.desertinvasion.us/invasion_pictures/invasion_tohono.html

 

 

I do not talk about the urban elements. I just talk about those descendants of native that live in what is now Mexico but once time also lived in the places that today is US. Maybe some of them want to move to places in the states their ancestors one time lived in. All descendants do not live at the border right now, some live also further south in Mexico. There were, and is, not only one group of natives that once lived in what is now California, Arizona, New Mexico or Texas.

 

But maybe the US citizens is just so paranoid that they think all people coming from Mexico are thieves and crooks directly from the slum.

 

And shall one see things from an Native American perspective than all non indian Americans are illegal immigrants (even if many of them, as the black slaves, did not come voluntarily).

 

- -  -

 

And for the matter of refugees, still Sweden takes more refugees, counted in percent, than the big and mighty US.



Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2009 at 15:26
And Swedes probably have more cavities than Americans, counted in percent that is...but what you are conveniently forgetting is that your "darling" immigrants still have to do their paperwork and are not swimming it to Malmo! If you are as good on the subject of Chichimecas as you are over Tupians, believe me I will be prepared for the promised boredom. Go watch a John Wayne flick and learn something!

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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2009 at 18:49
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

... 
What is worse, despite your tedious exposition on "indigenous tribes" elsewhere, is the fact that we are not speaking of any type of Amerind when discussing this social problem. Instead, we are speaking of the urban poor or worse, the criminal element, from very modern settings who in many ways would feel insulted if you called them "indios"!  
 
 
Absolutely agree.
The problem with the immigration from Mexico to the U.S. has not much to do with Indians, no matter it is true that Indigenous people all over the history moved back and forth from today's territories of the United States and Mexico. By large, most immigrants aren't Indigenous people at all.
 
The problem is not with Mexicans either. A Mexican that flight to the U.S. to complete its studies or doing business won't have problems at all, mostly. Even more, a million of Americans live in Mexico Confused...
 
The problem here is with the poors of Mexico, Mexico is a country that, like Brazil and Colombia and in less degree other Latin Americans nations, have a great social divide between the poor masses and the rich. Only recently in the region a middle class is surging, but still there is a great debt with a poor uneducated segment of the population that is looking for better opportunities.
Criminality is also a factor, but that shouldn't be the major concern. After all, those immigrants comming to the U.S. from other regions, like Eastern Europe, Middle East, Africa or Asia comes from countries with even more criminality than Mexico, and the largest majority of poor Mexicans are hard working and decent people.
 
Different is the concern with the mafias across borders. That's a major concern, not only of the United States, but of all the countries of the Western Hemisphere. The traffic of drugs in one direction, money and guns in the other, are producing a lot of problems and challenge the stability of the region, and has to be stopped. Absolutelly. Just remember how the FARC guerrillas attacked from Ecuador, to realize this is a global problem of the New World.
 
 


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2009 at 20:46
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

And Swedes probably have more cavities than Americans, counted in percent that is...but what you are conveniently forgetting is that your "darling" immigrants still have to do their paperwork and are not swimming it to Malmo! If you are as good on the subject of Chichimecas as you are over Tupians, believe me I will be prepared for the promised boredom. Go watch a John Wayne flick and learn something!
 
Sweden has also people who come into this country illegally. But they, when discovered, has the right to get their matter tried in court, in order to decide if they can stay or not.
 
If you think all of the natives in the Amazon are tupians or all of the natives in Mexico are Chichimecas than you for sure has no grasp of the diveristy of native peoples and languages.


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2009 at 01:34
You take the cake, Carch, although that wannabe Aethiop is running you a close second. Not only do you abuse History and historical constructs worse than a fantasazing 13 year old locked in a bathroom, but also sound sour divertissements, so please do not attempt word games with me. The nuances of English--or for that matter Spanish--fly well above your capacity to grasp. Look back at my original post and try to find "the" attached to Chichimecas. Nevertheless, go ahead and post additional foolishness that have little to do with History and carry absolutely no understanding that contemporary problems have far more capable people attending to them.

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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2009 at 04:54
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

You take the cake, Carch, although that wannabe Aethiop is running you a close second. Not only do you abuse History and historical constructs worse than a fantasazing 13 year old locked in a bathroom, but also sound sour divertissements, so please do not attempt word games with me. The nuances of English--or for that matter Spanish--fly well above your capacity to grasp. Look back at my original post and try to find "the" attached to Chichimecas. Nevertheless, go ahead and post additional foolishness that have little to do with History and carry absolutely no understanding that contemporary problems have far more capable people attending to them.


Do not be angry just because you are wrong, everybody can be wrong.

And to call people names like wannabe Aethiop (whoever that refers to) and similar slurs, has not so much to do with history but just shows a lack of ordinary politeness.



Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2009 at 09:04
Well, it seems no one wishes to undertake the needed corrections for a very simple reason: the perpetrators pay no heed. If you wish, Carch, to bleat on about "ordinary politeness" [when in fact given today's social milieu and the cowardice of the Internet, any level of politeness would fall under consideration as actually extraordinary!], the simple fact is that not only on "immigration" are you completely wrong but practically all your propositions that might be discernable through the usual fog of anti-Christianity, Catholic bashing, and blundering ecopathos, falls under a similar censure. I happen to live in the American Southwest and maintain residences on both sides of the border and certainly have far greater familiarity with this topic than you might ever glean from the superficial clap-trap you put forth as expertise. So back off and cease all this sniveling because you have exhausted even my rather remarkable capacity to display patience.

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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2009 at 10:52
Calm it down guys, it may be the minefield but normal rules still apply. attack the argument, not the person, and don't bring arguments from other threads into this one - or vice versa.


Posted By: AksumVanguard
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2009 at 20:38
Originally posted by drgonzga drgonzga wrote:

You take the cake, Carch, although that wannabe Aethiop is running you a close second.


I'll keep it a little cordial here since Dr.DOOM has already made a mess of  this post and is doing nothing but posting irrelevant and non-complacent points in threads as Carcharodon has already pointed out.

I would want to know what you mean be saying "take the cake" or a wanna be for that matter,you don't know me or my family's  history. You can't withstand a full intellectual argument thats the reason for your feeble rebutalls when all the while  quivering for knowing your statements are undoubtedly flawed . Refrain from referring to me or I shall expose your incredulous constructs once more as I previously did not too long ago.

Originally posted by Carcharadon Carcharadon wrote:


The long excerpt you posted is rather irrelevant to the things I talked about. I talked about indians who fled from US army into Mexico, other times they fled from Mexico into US territory. They lived in states that changed from Mexican to US supremacy but they still belonged there on both sides of the borders. Some treaties written by their supressors do not alter that fact.


Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


Carch thy name is Obscurantism Redux as thou hauntest the parapets of Elsinore. For one thing, you are totally uninformed as to the habits of residents within the border zone between Mexico and the United States. They cross freely at all times between countries and have done so for generations...the border-leapers originate elsewhere.


Prior to the Independence of Texas, Native American Indians were forced to move westward.They already had been other familiar settled Native Indian Tribes who were scrambling and fighting to maintain their reservations lands, crops, and livestock. They mostly fought with Tejanos and other refuged Native American tribes coming into the area.



The Mexican government encouraged American Farmers and settlers in the lands in and around the Texas territories,the Mexican government also encouraged the newly arrived settlers to purchase farm implements,and even gave them land grants. Empresarios Tejanos sold these lands for 12 cents an acre to American settlers, but they were all to be Mexican Governed territories.
After Sam Houston and the Independence of Texas many Native Indians were eventually ignored of their rights  and not even taken into consideration. The Tejanos of of the previous Northern Mexico territories remained in Texas  and assimilated into the land  ,but these were contrary to the Indian Reservations set there.

If you are talking about Indian reservations  allowing them to move freely through borders, you have one or two factors comming into play. One factor, reservations may be situated on the Mexican and US border others are not situated in the proximity of the border .There  may be located in a remote area within the middle of the state, including Texas,Arizona,NewMexico,Utah,and Nevada. But not this does not include all indian reservations. Now maybe of course a tribe  who has one or two territories in the same  state including border and non-border could may move inter-border freely but this is not likely.
 
Native American Indians and Tejanos are two different things. And it is true that some reservations may allow them to traverse between the borders doesn't mean the same for the Indians of Mexico. I'm not to sure if they are even Indian reservations(territories) in Mexico. SO not all tribes are granted the same liberty.

Now of course the United States grants the Native Indian Tribes some amnesty in some matters. Thats the reason you have new well spunned Casinos.  I do know of one Indian territory on the New York -Canada border called the Akwasasne and St Regis Mohawk reserve which has alot of interborder moving of the Mohawk tribe memebrs but not all.They have businesses there that give them very great advantage.

So to put it simply not all native americans are allowed to travel freely through borders,so I don't know why that claim was made.






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Posted By: Carcharodon
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2009 at 22:14
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Well, it seems no one wishes to undertake the needed corrections for a very simple reason: the perpetrators pay no heed. If you wish, Carch, to bleat on about "ordinary politeness" [when in fact given today's social milieu and the cowardice of the Internet, any level of politeness would fall under consideration as actually extraordinary!], the simple fact is that not only on "immigration" are you completely wrong but practically all your propositions that might be discernable through the usual fog of anti-Christianity, Catholic bashing, and blundering ecopathos, falls under a similar censure. I happen to live in the American Southwest and maintain residences on both sides of the border and certainly have far greater familiarity with this topic than you might ever glean from the superficial clap-trap you put forth as expertise. So back off and cease all this sniveling because you have exhausted even my rather remarkable capacity to display patience.


Well, living in that environment maybe made you homeblind and unable to view the matter in a broader perspctive.


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2009 at 22:39

Duh? Do you people actually read what you write before posting such cockamamie drivel...or do you believe these meanderings carry meaning? Pray tell, what does this say: "Now maybe of course a tribe  who has one or two territories in the same  state including border and non-border could may move inter-border freely but this is not likely..."?

Spare yourselves further embarrassment and simply go quietly...


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2009 at 22:56
Well, dragonzeistga, were you to lessen the whole moral high ground spiel, and refrian from such importune semantic babble fire (picture the soldiers on D-Day getting shot at with tangents and anecdotal interjections), then maybe a vis a vis discussion without interpolation would lead to a better standard of discussion. At the moment such intellectual jousting is neither condusive to progress or to a fair reflection of intellect.
 
Did I just say anything at all? I'm confused.
 
 


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2009 at 23:43
Well Dullfin, if you wish to flail your tail do so a little less ponderously. As it is you are splashing about as effectively as a sardine after canning!  

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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2009 at 00:25

Oh! Such linguistic virtuosity leaves a pang in my mammalian breast. Fly! Fly before I get struck again with such lacinating digress!

 

 



Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2009 at 02:13
I'm diverted by the notion of being shot at with tangents ... is there a Lewis Carroll reference I'm missing?
 
But hush ... I ought to practice what I preach about staying on topic.


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2009 at 04:25
No less strange than a lacinating digress, gcle, but a fascinating display of migrant thread-hopping nevertheless. Not that the construction of this thread fails to support these sopholoric interludes. In contemporary society, immigration is a fact of life and accomplished quite simply under legal venues. Undocumented aliens are another matter entirely and, often, a direct product of criminal activity thus constituting a serious threat to social and political stability. Nevertheless, there are jokers who go out of their way to either incite racial hatred or rationalize the problem with all type of Humpty Dumpty logic. The charlatans we have here bloviate about Amerinds, reservations, "suppressors" and heaven knows what other fancies for no other reason than to hear themselves exercise their digestive tracts. The literature on the topic is voluminous, not only with respect to the situation in the United States but internationally as well. For example, here is an overview with respect to the US in 2007:
 
http://www.ilw.com/immigdaily/news/2007,0315-crs.pdf - http://www.ilw.com/immigdaily/news/2007,0315-crs.pdf
 
The interesting point here is that the US can absorb these extra-legals to a far greater capacity than any other modern state and actively seeks solutions to the social dilemma. Now that there are others who seek to play politics is another matter entirely, and herein the very thread we have received excellent examples of such inanities.


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: AksumVanguard
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2009 at 05:25
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Spare yourselves further embarrassment and simply go quietly...


If you keep mouthing off about me I shall leave a bad aftertaste.

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:



In contemporary society, immigration is a fact of life and accomplished quite simply under legal venues. Undocumented aliens are another matter entirely and, often, a direct product of criminal activity thus constituting a serious threat to social and political stability.


Ahhhhhh, I retreat to a bomb shelter every time an illegal alien is around.

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


 Nevertheless, there are jokers who go out of their way to either incite racial hatred or rationalize the problem with all type of Humpty dump logic



Oh really,   I wonder who would be guilty of that.







Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2009 at 05:48
You can't even get the quotes right, can you, and alter them for your little game...not the first time but then trolls are so predictable. 

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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2009 at 06:17
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

You can't even get the quotes right, can you, and alter them for your little game...not the first time but then trolls are so predictable. 


You forgot to say "Well Aksum Vanguard..."

Sorry.


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http://xkcd.com/15/



Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. ~George Bernard Shaw


Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2009 at 14:13
Thread locked. For obvious reasons.



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