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Population Decay and Ancient Civilizations

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Paradigm of Humanity View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06 Mar 2014 at 19:42
I wonder role of population decay on collapse of that once mightiest ancient civilizations. Isn't that Putin's intention on playing family man (anti-homosexuality campaign, support for traditional family values, suggesting three child per couple at least) is revaving his decadant empire?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2014 at 21:58
Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

I wonder role of population decay on collapse of that once mightiest ancient civilizations. Isn't that Putin's intention on playing family man (anti-homosexuality campaign, support for traditional family values, suggesting three child per couple at least) is revaving his decadant empire?
WhAt is this intended to be about? Ancient civilizations or todays Russia and Putin?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2014 at 02:28
Isn't power politics are all the same Tongue just tools and scales increased as time past...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2014 at 17:27
Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

Isn't power politics are all the same Tongue just tools and scales increased as time past...
So ithe topic is power politics - and population politics(?)
You see Putins politics regarding family and so-called "values" as an attempt to increase Russias role in the world, I guess. Another possibillity it that the only purpose for Putin is to increase popularioty among parts of Russian populace, but I am not sure.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2015 at 14:37
Putin is trying to increase the ethnic Russian population in Russia, the other ethnicities are growing faster in relation to the ethnic Russians.

In the late Roman Empire, the Christians did not believe in infanticide or abortion.  That meant that they had more children and girls.  The pagans on the other hand, believed in infanticide, particularly of girls, and abortion, which was a horrid thing often permanently injuring women, and also destroying their fertility.  Pagan men would 'have to' marry Christian women, because the shortage of women in pagan families due to the infanticide.  The dynamic here meant the growth of the Christian population in comparison to the pagan population.  Whether that means decay is another question.  This was probably more the result of a general world view (Weltanschaung) than following a particular dogma.  One should remember that there was quite some time before Christianity was dogmatically defined as a particular set of beliefs in the Nicaean Creed.  

Of course, China and India have problems because of abortion of girls.  Men are more aggressive, and that comes out in behavior, especially when men's actions are not moderated by the influence of women (due to the shortage of eligible women).  United States' population is still growing, but more so due to immigration.  Japan has a problem of an elderly population, supported by fewer workers every year as people retire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2015 at 21:38
If Putin/Russia are so pro-family/traditional-values then why so many Russian/eastern scammers etc?
I had had the impression Putin (& Yeltsin) was just like the western corporates?
They say high cultures/civilisations decayed because the good spiritual/racial/inner became corrupted/mixed/outnumbered, and externalisation. Eg see the last paragraph of the Atlantis account. Every one is doomed to repeat the same thing, similar lifecycle (Spenglar). pride comes before fall. The west now is undermining everything good/best/natural (eg family/heterosexuality, "corrupting youth", etc). Iniquity of the Amorites. Spartans lost alot to constant wars.

"Finally, Kali Yuga, the dark age of today, is riven with quarrels, dissension, wars, and stirfe. Love and sex are separated. Few know truth. Possessions, not righteousness, confer rank and outer trappings are confused with inner religion." - Hindu (Arthur Cotterell).

"There is no one, any more, in whom enlightening goodness (sattva) prevails; no real wise man, no saint, no one uttering truth and standing by his sacred word. The seemingly holy brahmin is no better than a fool. Old people, destitute of the true wisdom of old age, try to behave like the young, and the young lack the candor or youth. The social classes have lost their distinguishing, dignifying virtues.... The will to rise to supreme heights has failed; the bonds of sympathy and love have disolved; narrow egotism rules.... When this calamity has befallen the once harmoniously ordered city of man, the substance of the world-organism had deteriorated beyond salvage, and the universe is ripe for dissolution" - Matysa Purana.

"[not futurism or archaism, but rebirth]" - Toynbee (via J Campbell).

"As above, so below".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2015 at 22:46
Nature has a built balance between success and failure in any species. As our lives get easier, more and more are tempted into alternative non-productive lifestyles, whereas in times and places where life is hard, the tendency is to procreate rapidly. There is of course a practical side to that behaviour, but it's also instinctual, albeit a variable quality. Nature gives human beings a variety of characters in order that social diversity fills in every potential need within the herd. When violence is called for, aggressive and dominant people come to the for. When peace and support is called for, different personalities tend to emerge as important.

These aren't new ideas. The sort of social darwinism that I talk about (I stop short of nazi ideals on the subject thank you very much) was described as political evolution by Polybius around 150BC.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2015 at 14:40

when i first saw/read i misunderstood and it seemed pro hard and anti easy, but i after saw seems balance?:

social darwinian - social cooperation
hard - easy
nature - mother

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2015 at 21:15
This topic was ruined unfortunately by Fantasus's cynical attitude back when I opened it. But thanks to fransiscosan's necromacery skills, it went to where I wanted it to be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2015 at 21:55
Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

This topic was ruined unfortunately by Fantasus's cynical attitude back when I opened it. But thanks to fransiscosan's necromacery skills, it went to where I wanted it to be.


Why should a discussion be only between those who agree, or who don´t question the premises? I do not agree it is "self evident" that populatio issues now and back in the roman past are in any way the same. Situation now and then seems for me extremely different.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2015 at 15:27
Well, maybe not that extremely different,
I used to have a friend and she would say, "what do you mean alcohol is detrimental to pregnancy?
most women wouldn't get that way if it wasn't for alcohol!" <grin>
One survival goal for some groups is to have a lot of kids, often regardless of how well (or poorly) their family can take care of them.  A different survival goal is to have fewer kids, but work harder to make sure they have health care, education and positive experiences.  Another survival goal is to be survived by one's art or other contributions to (a certain view of) society.

Fantasus, how do you see the situations as different?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2015 at 18:47
Here some of the differences I see between "contemporary"(21.th and 20th. Century)situation (for populations) vs. the situation 2500-to 1500 years ago (Ancient Greece and Roman Empire and other parts of the planet).
1:Our acces to reliable sources are vastly different, to a degree I doubt very much how much we can say with any certainty and exactitude about ancient populationns.
That in turn mean we may be cautious about "blaming" so called "population-decay" for the fall of ancient empires - even if some ancient authors may have uttered such opinions.
2:As far as we can say anything about ancient populations they did not change the way they usually did for the last couple of centuries. They were so much smaller, and even for an ancient metropolis like Rome I have seen some doubt its population reached a million during "imperial" times.Plus:Populations did not grew continuosly for centuries, at least not anyway like the last centuries. A shrinking population could as well be seen just "the order of the day" as anything else. During the latest periods I suspect we have get used to the idea population Growth, and Growth in general, is "the rule of the universe" - though such an idea is false.
3:For the later period I think a big populatioin does not mean the same as in "ancient" societies.
If we "look back" military strength depended very much upon Manpower.
That has changed very much in the way technology, economic capacity, organisation has become more and more decisive. The same can be said for economy. We can not take for granted that a big or growing population is a source of strength, since it makes its own problems.
4: It may very well be that Putin think the way that is scetched out in the OP. Or it may be he just is opportunistic and try to serve his own interests - I don´t know. Either way I am not so sure his "moral policies" will help Russia solve its problems.
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