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Politicians Banned

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    Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 05:27
The Australian Consitution provides that no person who is or may have an obligation of any kind to a foreign state cannot be elected to the Federal Parliament. This includes multi or dual nationals.

Seven Federal politicians,including the Deputy Prime Minister were identified as being dual nationals, either by birth or by descent.

The High Court of Australia today ruled that five of the politicians, including the Deputy Prime Minister, were ineligible to stand for election, and therefore were not entitled to be members of the parliament.

At this stage, the Australian Government, which had a one seat majority, is in a state of chaos.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 2017 at 23:43
no more politicians?  That is how we got Trump:(
But, seriously, is there a way for the politician to denounce his dual/multi status, especially since a lot of them didn't realize it beforehand?  Is there someway to "naturalize" them, or something like that.

Somewhere I have heard that the US does not recognize dual citizenship, but I think what that means is if you are a dual citizen, the US doesn't want to hear about it.  Something like that.  I imagine if you participated in a foreign election, or ran for office in the other country, "someone" (but who?) might get cranky.  Would Jews (who have the "right to return" to Israel) be excluded from office in Australia?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2017 at 01:59
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

The Australian Consitution provides that no person who is or may have an obligation of any kind to a foreign state cannot be elected to the Federal Parliament. This includes multi or dual nationals.

Seven Federal politicians,including the Deputy Prime Minister were identified as being dual nationals, either by birth or by descent.

The High Court of Australia today ruled that five of the politicians, including the Deputy Prime Minister, were ineligible to stand for election, and therefore were not entitled to be members of the parliament.

At this stage, the Australian Government, which had a one seat majority, is in a state of chaos.
Can you explain Turnbulls thinking regarding having unqualified*dual nationals* in his Parliament? 

Wasn't it bound to come up eventually? I have no bias at all towards any of these senators but their faces are priceless. Big smile

 http://www.reuters.com/article/us-australia-politics/australian-court-rules-deputy-pm-ineligible-for-parliament-government-loses-majority-idUSKBN1CW02A
“We are deeply concerned that Australia is facing a period of uncertainty because this prime minister has insisted on keeping ministers on his front bench who have been not only ineligible to be ministers but ineligible to be in the parliament,” Plibersek said.




Edited by Vanuatu - 28 Oct 2017 at 02:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 2017 at 03:42
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

no more politicians?  That is how we got Trump:(
But, seriously, is there a way for the politician to denounce his dual/multi status, especially since a lot of them didn't realize it beforehand?  Is there someway to "naturalize" them, or something like that.

Somewhere I have heard that the US does not recognize dual citizenship, but I think what that means is if you are a dual citizen, the US doesn't want to hear about it.  Something like that.  I imagine if you participated in a foreign election, or ran for office in the other country, "someone" (but who?) might get cranky.  Would Jews (who have the "right to return" to Israel) be excluded from office in Australia?

1. Yes, if they renounce their overseas citizenship, formally, they can be re-elected. Those born overseas would have to apply for Australian Citizenship-quickly-if they want to run again.

2. Australian born Jews, who have an hereditary "Right of Return" are OK as they have no actual Jewish Citizenship and no obligation to the Jewish State.

At this stage, by-elections may have to be held in some cases, while I don't think a General Election is off the table either.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2017 at 22:52
toyomotor,
 So what is happening with disenfranchisement of multi-national politicians?
What is new?

How is the Australian parliament divided up currently?  It sounds like this destabilizes the ruling coalition. (Not a problem that Americans have to worry about, we got other problems;) )
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2017 at 23:39
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

toyomotor,
 So what is happening with disenfranchisement of multi-national politicians?
What is new?

How is the Australian parliament divided up currently?  It sounds like this destabilizes the ruling coalition. (Not a problem that Americans have to worry about, we got other problems;) )

Wel, it seems that there are other politicians who are under a cloud, but their exact positions are being examined. The latest is the son of a Greek woman who migrated to Australia in he 1950's.

The son was born in Australia, but the Greek government never relinquishes the status of their home born, regardless of whether they take other citizenship or not.

Some politicians are calling for a full audit of all politicians citizenship status, but the Prime Minister is resisting. Why?

The Federal government is at present hanging by a thread held by Independents. The Deputy Prime Minister, who was born in Australia to New Zealand parents, and has now stepped down from politics, is taking urgent steps to regularise his status, and will stand for re-election in a December by-election.

Section 44 of the Australian Constitution, when first constructed, never visualised a multi-cultural community in Australia, and this is the problem. But to rectify the situation, or more properly bring it up to date, will need a National Referendum. An expensive and uncertain option as, historically, Australian haven't liked people tinkering with the Constitution and have voted accordingly.

 
Quote "I, [Minister's full name], do swear that I will well and truly serve the people of Australia in the office of [position] and that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second.

So help me God!"

From September 2010, ministers made the following oath or affirmation:

I, [Minister’s full name], do swear that I will well and truly serve the Commonwealth of Australia in the office of [position]. So help me God!

or

I, [Minister’s full name], do solemnly and sincerely affirm and declare that I will well and truly serve the commonwealth of Australia in the office of [position]

AND for non Ministers

Quote Oath

I, A.B., do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, Her heirs and successors according to law. So Help Me God!

Affirmation

I, A.B., do solemnly and sincerely affirm and declare that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, Her heirs and successors according to law.

One could construe the Oaths taken as pledging allegiance to Australia, over all others, and therefore resolve the issue.



Edited by toyomotor - 04 Nov 2017 at 23:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 01:12
In the American system, the constitution of Congress has nothing to do with who is selected President, and therefore changes in Congress do not amount to changes in the executive.  Whereas with a parliamentary system, changes in the ruling coalition in the legislative, mean a change in the Prime Minister, the executive body.  No?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 04:24
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

In the American system, the constitution of Congress has nothing to do with who is selected President, and therefore changes in Congress do not amount to changes in the executive.  Whereas with a parliamentary system, changes in the ruling coalition in the legislative, mean a change in the Prime Minister, the executive body.  No?

Yes. The leader of the party which gets the most votes, and therefore bums on seats in parliament, is the Prime Minister. He/she  can be later callenged by a member of their own party and be replaced, if that's what the Parliamentary Party wants.

Upon change of government new Ministers (=Secretary in the US System) are appointed, but the actual Heads of Agencies, professional Public Servants, remain. Very seldom does our government sack a permanent Head of Agency, and I can't remember one resigning because of a new government.

Our Prime Minister doesn't have to contend with a hostile parliament, but sometimes it gets very close, especially when the govenment has only a slim majority.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 10:05
As another Australian Government member raises the issue of his own possible dual nationality, I wonder why the Federal Government doesn't simply enact legislation making every person born in Australian citizen, nullifying any heriditary status, unless other citizenship is applied for.

If this was the case, only those who were born overseas, or who have applied for citizenship of another country would be the subject of Section 44 of the Constitution.

What do you think folks?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 21:56
I have a friend who was born in Canada, and does not vote (he says) because he is concerned that it would nullify his dual citizenship.  It does not work that way (or so I think), but people get weird ideas about these things, "nullifying hereditary status" would not change what people think and how people operate, or at least that is my opinion.  They would just get angry about the government taking away something that the government has no right to take away (and they would be right).  It is not for example, Australia to decide that someone does not have Greek citizenship, it is for Greece to decide that, (and for Australia to decide on Australian citizenship).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 23:13
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I have a friend who was born in Canada, and does not vote (he says) because he is concerned that it would nullify his dual citizenship.  It does not work that way (or so I think), but people get weird ideas about these things, "nullifying hereditary status" would not change what people think and how people operate, or at least that is my opinion.  They would just get angry about the government taking away something that the government has no right to take away (and they would be right).  It is not for example, Australia to decide that someone does not have Greek citizenship, it is for Greece to decide that, (and for Australia to decide on Australian citizenship).

I take your point, but there has to be a speedy resolution to this debacle. Amending the Constitution will take ages, meanwhile Parliament stagnates.

What about if I water it down a bit, placing Australian citizenship as the rule, and placing any other nationality in a secondary position (only as it relates to Parliamentary Elections). People born in Australian should be, first and foremost, Australian citizens, regardless of where their parents were born.

(As a side note, there are at least 11,000 Australian citizens living in the Middle East. These are people who migrated to Australia, reaped the benefits, and now spend much of their time living in their old country, retaining Australian welfare payments and the protection of the Australian Embassies-not fair.)
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