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Petrol/Electric Hybrids?

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toyomotor View Drop Down
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    Posted: 16 Jan 2018 at 08:19
Genuine questions:-

1. Where we have petrol/electric hybrid motor vehicles, why do the batteries have to be charged from a system based source?

2. Is it possible that the petrol engine, connected to an internal generator, could re-charge the batteries on the run?

3. If this is or would be posible, wouldn't this give motor vehicles almost unlimited range?

4. Or is this type of system already in existance?

I don't know much about these hybrid systems, but I'm interested in how they do or could work.

It's not that I was born in Ireland,
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Vanuatu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 17:22
Hi toyomotor.

Doesn't a failed car battery recharge itself once another source "jumps" the battery?


 hybrid vehicle uses two or more distinct types of power, such as a gas-powered, internal combustion engine plus an electric motor on a battery pack. There are two primary types of hybrid cars on the market, a standard hybrid and a plug-in hybrid. Neither requires that you plug in the car to an electric source, however, with a plug-in hybrid you have the option to do so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2018 at 23:11
Quote Doesn't a failed car battery recharge itself once another source "jumps" the battery?


Not necessarily. The power from the "jump" may start the car, but if the battery is damaged, for example, it will probably stop soon after the "jump" is removed.

The alternator in a car supplies power to the cars electrical system, but it's dependent, of course, on the engine running to turn the armature-which creates electricity.

If the battery is merely flat, the "jump" will work OK, but otherwise, no.

What I'm alluding to is that the car's electrical system is set up to recharge the batteries while the petrol engine is running.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2018 at 00:54
When I was young, a looooooong time ago, I had a bicycle.

Fitted to the bicycle was a headlamp and a dynamo. As long as the dynamo was rubbing on one of the tyres, and I kept pedalling, the light illuminated. No Batteries.

Why can't a similar, of course modified, system be fitted to hybrid motor cars?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2018 at 03:22
I don't want to peddle my ass all over town. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2018 at 14:43
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

I don't want to peddle my ass all over town. 

Might not do you a great deal of harm.    Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2018 at 15:04
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

I don't want to peddle my ass all over town. 

Might not do you a great deal of harm.    Wink

Now now my dear, I don't say "pedal" I say "peddle" you really are a farm boy Smile

explaining my jokes could crush my spirit Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2018 at 03:11
Quote Now now my dear, I don't say "pedal" I say "peddle" you really are a farm boy Smile

explaining my jokes could crush my spirit Wink

And you obviously missed the double entendre in my reply.  LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2018 at 21:42
It is probably more efficient to go from
gas engine--> kinetic energy of the wheels
than it is to go from
gas engine-> electrical battery-> kinetic energy of the wheels.

What is the purpose of using gas to generate electrical charge to kinetic energy, when you can either go straight from gas engine to power, or electrical energy to power?  Now maybe you want to "top it off" have a full charge and a full tank.

It is not that they can't do that, it is just that it is probably much more complicated for no real advantage.
Or am I misunderstanding you, toyomotor?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2018 at 23:44
Cars have been invented that operate from four small motors, one built in to each wheel, maybe only prototypes, but still exist and seem to work OK.

Instead of motors, if small generators of some sort were built into wheel hubs (just one suggestion) couldn't they regenerate the batteries, on the run?

When battery charge is getting low, couldn't running on the gasoline engine for a while, using something similar to the above, charge up the batteries?

We already have cars that run off batteries in city driving, and automatically switch to gasoline engine on highways or country roads. Is there much difference?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2018 at 22:59
Yes, you might build such generators, and they could generate electricity, but they would also generate drag, or a loss of energy in the converting of kinetic energy to electrical energy.  Any time you convert one energy into another (chemical into electrical into kinetic, etc.) you are going to have a loss.  Doing chemical (fuel) into electrical into kinetic (motion), back into electrical is a bit of a waste.

Well when you jump a car, you want to keep it running for awhile so the battery can charge up.  Turn it off too soon, and you risk having problems starting the car again.  So yes, to some the gasoline fuels the electrical system, which makes the car go, running the car does produce kinetic energy (pistons, etc.) in the engine that uses gasoline to give the battery a charge, but that does not sound like what you are looking for.  Now some cars are trying to use stored kinetic energy from acceleration and breaking, to help with gas mileage.  But then you have to have a system to do that, I don't think that converting it back into electrical energy is necessarily the most efficient.  An example of stored kinetic energy is a spring.

Batteries and energy in general is really a bottleneck for technology.  Think of how much of our modern technogizmos rely on frequent charges (smart phones and laptops), things have improved, but it is a bottleneck for cars too, not only the duration, but also how much it is rechargeable or not.  (or burst into flames).  In the long run these problems will be managed and resolved (I don't say solved).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2018 at 00:58
Hmmm. I would have thought that there'd be a way around the drag issue.

I understand what you're saying, but modern cars, petroleum motors, already use alternators to replace battery energy, without a great loss of kinetic energy.

If I were to remove the alternator belt from my car, and then drive it, presuming that I could start it without the alternator, would there be any difference in the kinetic energy produced?

I know one thing, the battery would drain in a flash.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2018 at 04:07
I don't know how an alternator works. like I said, there are systems (prolly just theoretical though), that can store energy from acceleration or breaking.  The way kinetic energy gets wasted is through heat. except even that can be useful if it is cold outside;) (but also if the car is overheating, one should run the the fan and the heat vents).  But I still don't think that it is efficient to go from the tires turning to generating electricity for the battery..  More likely, I would guess some other system would store the energy, I would guess.

The dog is snoring.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2018 at 14:31
Give the dog a nudge so you can concentrate on this. LOL

When I was young, my car had a generator and a voltage regulator-it worked on the same principle as the generator for the light on the bicycle as I explained earlier, but just in case you didn't have a generator, here goes.

The generator had a small armature set between copper field coils. The generator was set up so as to have the protruding end of the armature, with a knurled end, rub against the side of the bicycle tyre. When the bike wheel rotated, it spun the armature, producing electricity to power the light.

So cars had generators and voltage regulators. This regulator could be adjusted to ensure that sufficient energy was produced from the generator, thus keeping the battery charged and sufficient electricity for remaining functions such a lighting, and of course power had to go to the spark plugs to create the spark which ignited gasoline fumes to cause the internal combustion engine to work.



Phew!!!

Then generators and voltage regulators were replaced by alternators. Both are types of generator , and are driven by a belt from the engine. The alternator consists of a stator - a stationary set of wire coil windings, inside which a rotor revolves. ... The rotation of the electromagnet inside the stator coils generates much more electricity inside these coils.

So what I'm saying is, by fitting a stronger alternator, or more than one alternator, couldn't they provide enough power to re-charge the batteries while the car was running on the gasoline engine.

I know that overall vehicle weight would be effected, but that's a different problem.

Now, about your golf swing!!!LOL


Edited by toyomotor - 24 Jan 2018 at 14:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2018 at 23:09
The gasoline engine does recharge the batteries.  I thought you wanted the kinetic motion of the vehicle (on gas) to recharge the batteries.  Gas both recharging the batteries and running the car is not a problem.  Gas running the car is not a problem.  Electrical storage (battery) running the car is not (much of) a problem.  Storing energy from the stop and go traffic of the car is more experimental.  They are working that out (at least that is my understanding).  But you still will need a primary fuel source, gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, battery, whatever. 

Of course, there is a difference between charging a normal car battery, and running the car on only battery power, by that I mean that the gas engine is not in use and only battery power is used.  Or at least I assume there is a difference.  If it was Greek, I might understand it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2018 at 00:02
Franciscosan

Sorry mate I think you've completely missed the point I was trying to make.

Rather than circle our wagons, I think we'll put this one to bed.
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