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Patriotism?

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toyomotor View Drop Down
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    Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 08:22
Did you ever notice at international sports events, say, in your home country against a foreign country, that first, second or even third generation migrants come out in force to support the country of their parents or grandparents birth, rather than their own home country. (Am I correct here? Do you call the first second and so on migrants still when trying to describe cultural shifts like this?)

People who have lived in this country for 50years or more still refer to them selves as Greek, Italian, Polish and so on.

This particularly noticeable in European and Western countries, and is often the cause of riots and the like.

Why do people do this, I wonder?


Edited by toyomotor - 13 Jul 2017 at 08:26
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 14:23
If my parents are born in England then I'm not a migrant, that's a guess.

Yea Sidney has had some soccer mayhem. 
Is moving to Australia, US or UK from Greece, Italy or Poland an admission of failure on the part of their home country? 

Wars make people leave countries where they had history and connections and a culture. The old grudges hang around  they want to settle it at a soccer match.



If Sharia law is so great why do muslims want to move to places like Australia, US and Canada? 



Edited by Vanuatu - 13 Jul 2017 at 14:23
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 14:51
Vanuatu
Quote If Sharia law is so great why do muslims want to move to places like Australia, US and Canada? 

...and bring their 15th Century traditions with them. But not all Muslims like Sharia Law, and that's why they flee.

Yes, Sydney and Melbourne has some soccer mayhem, similar to that experienced in Europe, but the point I'm making is that, in the case of Australia, these Soccer supporters are second or third generation Australians, supporting foreign clubs over Australian clubs. Where's their national loyalty? Why so quick to identify with a country and culture that they've never been a part of?

(As a side note, Australians are, in the main, mad keen sports fans. For example, in the southern states where Australian Rules Football if THE Winter game, if you mention the name Cyril, everyone knows exactly who you mean, or Buddy, or Joel and so on. No surnames are necessary. Is it the same in the USA?)

Proshchay moy drug


Edited by toyomotor - 13 Jul 2017 at 15:00
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 15:02
A sign of the times? Breaking with the authority at every level (whether warranted or not) is social media for sale.
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Windemere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 15:47
I think that the 1st generation descendants of immigrants still retain a strong identification with their parents' ethnicity and culture, and tend to support sports and cultural events connected with their ethnicity. But the next generation is often a blend of different ethnicities, and while they do retain some identification with the various ethnicities in their background, their strongest cultural identification is with the country of their nationality and residence (where they were raised).

My father immigrated to the U.S.A. from Ireland, and his sports and cultural  affiliations were always, throughout his life, with Ireland. My mother's parents also were immigrants from Ireland, and she was raised in a predominantly Irish ghetto, and she also had a strong identification with Ireland. I was raised in the same neighborhood, which was still mainly Irish in my youth, and my and my siblings' sports and cultural affiliations, while mainly American, also included Ireland.

My own sons are a blend of Irish, French-Canadian, Portuguese, and English. And while they also have a bit of a sentimental attachment for Ireland, their sports & cultural affiliations are almost entirely American.


Edited by Windemere - 13 Jul 2017 at 15:49
Dis Aliter Visum
"Beware of martyrs and those who would die for their beliefs; for they frequently make many others die with them, often before them, sometimes instead of them."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 16:11
Hello there. Smile

In some cases the younger people, already 2nd or 3rd generation have identified with their family's homeland of origin. Not their land of birth and residence. 

When this happens, as it has in London to point of extremism. What would you attribute that extremism to?

Does glorifying the "old days" when no one living can really testify create problems for integration?

  
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2017 at 03:04
Windemere
Good to hear from you. I agree with what you say, but the cultural attachment seems to be extending to more and more generations.

Vanuatu
Quote When this happens, as it has in London to point of extremism. What would you attribute that extremism to?

Not talking about religeous extremism now, but extreme racial hooliganism, someone once said that it came from a sense of "belonging", to a gang, or group. A bonding, a wanting to be one of the mob.

I've seen plenty of examples of the first generation breaking away from parents culture and disciplines to become hooligans. Perhaps there is a sense of confusion between the old and new.

I don't really know.
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2017 at 21:29
I have heard that the memory of parents gets distorted when they get older, if they remembered the hassle they had with the first child, parents would not be as quick to have another (and another).  "Oh, honey, babies are so cute, let's have another one," forgets the long nights, and the crying, the projectile vomiting, the fussy eating, and the diarhea.  The human race would probably die out if people didn't block out the bad, and remember fondly the good.  Same thing with immigrants, the next generation has an idealized picture of what it was like back in the mother-country.  The advantages of the strong culture of the mother-country is evident from that perspective, but the disadvantages that caused the parents to move, very much less so.  The first generation can be kind of in a limbo, they don't necessarily feel at home in America, but they are not really "from" wherever their parents came from.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2017 at 06:09
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Windemere
Good to hear from you. I agree with what you say, but the cultural attachment seems to be extending to more and more generations.

Vanuatu
Quote When this happens, as it has in London to point of extremism. What would you attribute that extremism to?

Not talking about religeous extremism now, but extreme racial hooliganism, someone once said that it came from a sense of "belonging", to a gang, or group. A bonding, a wanting to be one of the mob.

I've seen plenty of examples of the first generation breaking away from parents culture and disciplines to become hooligans. Perhaps there is a sense of confusion between the old and new.

I don't really know.

Do you think that behavior and inter-generational roles for young people were better defined in agrarian societies ?
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2017 at 10:12
Vanuatu
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Do you think that behavior and inter-generational roles for young people were better defined in agrarian societies ?

I think that behaviour and intergeneration roles would be better defined in any society of single culture. What we have in modern society is a lot of cross  culture exposure, without necessarily blending, or incomplete blending, so the result, IMHO, is youth wanting to shed the family disciplines of their parents while being not quite sure of their position in their new country.

In the case of second or third, etc. generations, I think perhaps they feel an attachment to their parental (etc) culture, while being overpowered by their present culture. This, I think, would be particularly true where the household follows a religion of the "old country" which in turn encourages the culture of the "old country".




I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2017 at 22:17
Think of the Boston Bombers, they were well educated in the US, and their mother made it pretty clear that she she thanks US, NOT!

I do think that in the home the parents of these extremist youths are filling their heads with nonsense. The same indignation and resentment expressed by all jihadists. The parents don't speak that way publicly bc they know better. IMHO
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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