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One way of categorizing modern global history

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    Posted: 16 Apr 2012 at 18:13

Due to circumstances I have deleted this article...
if you would like to see the paper come here
http://mountpenglai.hubpages.com/hub/A-Brief-Summary-of-the-Modern-World-One-way-to-look-at-history

EDIT- Added A mention about the Japanese Empire April /25th/ 12


Edited by fusong - 07 May 2012 at 21:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2012 at 01:37
thats the longest post ive ever made...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2012 at 01:49
You forgot the beginnings of imperialism, that started with the Portuguese expansion, at the middle of the 16th century. Starting yours counting in the 18th century is nonsense, at least you consider only the British Empires counts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2012 at 02:21
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

You forgot the beginnings of imperialism, that started with the Portuguese expansion, at the middle of the 16th century. Starting yours counting in the 18th century is nonsense, at least you consider only the British Empires counts.


I thought I addressed that early on

 The Sino Sphere could have reached the Americas earlier than Europeans they just choose not to, taken that into account New World Exploitation took place where many Asian nations were powerful The world was not dominated by global European imperialism until the 1700's.
To keep this short and sweet: Exploration of West Africa and Settlement in North America dose not equal global domination

Like I said the Turks defeated a large European Army the same year that Cortez conquered Mexico


Edited by fusong - 17 Apr 2012 at 14:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2012 at 11:38
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

You forgot the beginnings of imperialism, that started with the Portuguese expansion, at the middle of the 16th century.
Apart from what fusong said, Portuguese expansion started in the 15th century anyway. What was that about motes and beams?
 
@fusong
If you want to exted this consider replacing what is normally known as the 'classical' age with the 'axial age' of new religions coupled with militant empires. It pulls middle and far eastern cultures together better than 'classical'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr 2012 at 16:39
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

You forgot the beginnings of imperialism, that started with the Portuguese expansion, at the middle of the 16th century.
Apart from what fusong said, Portuguese expansion started in the 15th century anyway. What was that about motes and beams?
 
@fusong
If you want to exted this consider replacing what is normally known as the 'classical' age with the 'axial age' of new religions coupled with militant empires. It pulls middle and far eastern cultures together better than 'classical'.


I might extend this backward- I have been thinking about that idea myself-  thought what it is more obvous to me is the cultural changes from the 3rd century on which would make the world much more religion based than earlier before
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Apr 2012 at 01:24
Originally posted by fusong fusong wrote:


 The Sino Sphere could have reached the Americas earlier than Europeans they just choose not to, taken that into account New World Exploitation took place where many Asian nations were powerful The world was not dominated by global European imperialism until the 1700's.
---


I don't think Chinese had the tech or the courage to reach the Americas. Remember that Zheng He was a muslim and he was following the muslim routes (centuries old routes) from Arabia to Asia and Africa, that were quite well know for sailors at his time.

Chinese had no idea half an hemisphere beyond lied the Americas. Besides, they were a very conservative people, that focused mainly on themselves. Chinese didn't have the traditions of Polynesians, that managed to conquer the Pacific (half of the wolrd) just by sailing in canoes!

So, please, let's not repeat fantasies, please.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Apr 2012 at 01:26
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Apart from what fusong said, Portuguese expansion started in the 15th century anyway. What was that about motes and beams?
 


In fact, if one forgets the Vikings, the Portuguese started all the business of overseas colonial empires. They first practised suggar and plantation slavery in Africa, long before they spread it worldwide. So, colonialism was rooted in the work of Henry the Navigator of Portugal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Apr 2012 at 04:10
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by fusong fusong wrote:


 The Sino Sphere could have reached the Americas earlier than Europeans they just choose not to, taken that into account New World Exploitation took place where many Asian nations were powerful The world was not dominated by global European imperialism until the 1700's.
---


I don't think Chinese had the tech or the courage to reach the Americas. Remember that Zheng He was a muslim and he was following the muslim routes (centuries old routes) from Arabia to Asia and Africa, that were quite well know for sailors at his time.

Chinese had no idea half an hemisphere beyond lied the Americas. Besides, they were a very conservative people, that focused mainly on themselves. Chinese didn't have the traditions of Polynesians, that managed to conquer the Pacific (half of the wolrd) just by sailing in canoes!

So, please, let's not repeat fantasies, please.

First off the fact that Yongle got a Chinese fleet to go any where was moumental but the fact of the matter is that they certainly could have  If you looked into history at all you will find that the treasure fleet had larger and many more ships than the struggling feudal europe

[/QUOTE]Besides, they were a very conservative people, that focused mainly on themselves.[/QUOTE]

Aww I would love it if you told that the Manchurians, Sibrians, Turks the Vietnamese and the Tibetans that the Chinese ether imperalised or attempted to conquer--
and that is just in the ming era

How about the Manchu, Burma and Tawain ehh? 

[/QUOTE]So, please, let's not repeat fantasies, please.[/QUOTE]
Continue to give yourself good advice

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2012 at 00:59
Originally posted by fusong fusong wrote:


First off the fact that Yongle got a Chinese fleet to go any where was moumental but the fact of the matter is that they certainly could have  If you looked into history at all you will find that the treasure fleet had larger and many more ships than the struggling feudal europe


The Treasure fleet was larger and had more ships than anything Europeans or Polynesians never had. But the problem there was about goals. The Treasure fleet's goal was to mark presence in the KNOWN world, rather than discover anything new.

Originally posted by fusong fusong wrote:


Aww I would love it if you told that the Manchurians, Sibrians, Turks the Vietnamese and the Tibetans that the Chinese ether imperalised or attempted to conquer--
and that is just in the ming era

How about the Manchu, Burma and Tawain ehh?


Sure, but China was a land superpower. Unlike other asians, like Javanese or Indonesians, or even the ancient Polynesians (that were also Asians), the Chinese didn't have the urgency to found overseas empires.

In fact, the Arabs reached China and started the oceanic commerce with the Celestial Empire, rather than the other way around. And Zeng He was also a Muslim, wasn't he?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2012 at 11:53
I think we can all agree that the Treasure Fleet didn't go exploring, it went trading.
 
Fusong said the Chinese could have not that they did. If they had embarked on exploratory voyages they certainly had the technology. If they had set out on a hundred years of exploration like the Europeans did, then history would have been different.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2012 at 13:02
Originally posted by fusong fusong wrote:



I believe the age of imperialism will end with resource and population crashes, I believe that in the near future (next half century) the world will turn away from globalization and become more locally oriented .



A prettier picture is alluding my mind. Though the possibility of this happening is extremely remote i think, our ability to do incredibly stupid things is not. The thought of a catastrophic cataclysm being needed ought to makes us really be very careful for what we wish for! Bare in mind, unless we return to stupid by causing our own near mass extinction or having that done via more natural means (Such as and asteroid perhaps), there will always be the knowledge for the technologies of  the airplane, nuclear weapon and biological weapons, shipping , space, internet , guns, bombs, surveillance and so and so forth. There really would need to be a massive die off  of humanity for that too happen.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2012 at 14:40
A few thoughts on a complex subject:
 
Originally posted by fusong fusong wrote:

I might extend this backward- I have been thinking about that idea myself-  thought what it is more obvous to me is the cultural changes from the 3rd century on which would make the world much more religion based than earlier before
 
I had in mind more the thousand years from about 600 BCE to about 600 CE to include the founding of all the major religions (including classical Hinduism if not Vedic Hinduism). It doesn't only have religion founding everywhere but the introduction of coinage - i.e. actual gold and silver monetized in coins, the dominance of professional armies of mercenaries, a period of warring small states followed by the crystallisation of major empires, the introduction of state-regulated markets, chattel slavery, all factors that interconnect.
 
After that for about a thousand years you get to mostly essentially amateur soldiers tied by feudal or quasi-feudal linkages, reliance on paper money of one form or another (mostly debt instruments of one kind of another because of indequate supplies of bullion[1], and a replacement of chattel slavery (slaves bought and sold as goods) by debt peonage.
 
[1] For trading purposes that is: bullion in this period is taken up by churches and temples and ornamentation, and thus demonetised .
 
Then with the begnning of the modern age (at roughly the same time posited here) comes the release of bullion from religious purposes as well as the discovery of new sources, leading back again to the monetisation of gold and silver, and a recurrence of professional and mercenary soldiers. This 'modern' age also sees an emphasis on making markets independent of State interference.   
 
Today of course we have been seeing a demonetisation of bullion with the disappearance of the gold (or silver) standard, which is arguably a key factor in defining the latest age we are now living in, along with a reappearance of State control over markets.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr 2012 at 02:22
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

I think we can all agree that the Treasure Fleet didn't go exploring, it went trading.
 
Fusong said the Chinese could have not that they did. If they had embarked on exploratory voyages they certainly had the technology. If they had set out on a hundred years of exploration like the Europeans did, then history would have been different.


Certainly. During the early Ming dinasty, the Chinese had the more advanced navy worldwide, and the technology wasn't surpassed for centuries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 2012 at 23:58
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

I think we can all agree that the Treasure Fleet didn't go exploring, it went trading.
 
Fusong said the Chinese could have not that they did. If they had embarked on exploratory voyages they certainly had the technology. If they had set out on a hundred years of exploration like the Europeans did, then history would have been different.


Certainly. During the early Ming dinasty, the Chinese had the more advanced navy worldwide, and the technology wasn't surpassed for centuries.


Good than it is settled Cheers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 2012 at 07:08
Nobody "chosed" to explore or not to explore for them unknown continents, since to make such a choice You have to have an idea abut it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 2012 at 22:29
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

Nobody "chosed" to explore or not to explore for them unknown continents, since to make such a choice You have to have an idea abut it.


Yeah that is true..  This makes me think about Alexander the Great and how close he thought he was to the end of the world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2012 at 01:10
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

Nobody "chosed" to explore or not to explore for them unknown continents, since to make such a choice You have to have an idea abut it.


Please, read the bio of Henry the Navigator... and then come back. Wink




Edited by pinguin - 25 Apr 2012 at 01:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2012 at 01:46
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

Nobody "chosed" to explore or not to explore for them unknown continents, since to make such a choice You have to have an idea abut it.


Please, read the bio of Henry the Navigator... and then come back. Wink




Umm well.. he started off the slave trade profits there
went through a more specific settlement of the Azores and your not going to say the Europeans didnt know about Timbuktu.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 2012 at 08:29
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

Nobody "chosed" to explore or not to explore for them unknown continents, since to make such a choice You have to have an idea abut it.


Please, read the bio of Henry the Navigator... and then come back. Wink


The bio of Henry the Navigator sounds interesting, but hardly relevant for my argument at all. That he had the choice of exploring - or not - the African coastline is one thing, since the existence of Africa was "always" very well-known to europeans (the portuguese and spaniards had probably more intimate knowledge of the neighbouring african lands than about most of Europe itself). He and others could not have any "choice" to explore the "Americas" or not to do so, at least not until anyone had an idea it existed.
Later europeans got the idea there was a large unknown southern continent - I think it was labelled "Terra Australis Incognita". That is not the same as to say they had the slightest idea of the real continents of Australia (or in an earlier period "New Holland") or Antarctica.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2012 at 19:47
Originally posted by fusong fusong wrote:



Umm well.. he started off the slave trade profits there
went through a more specific settlement of the Azores and your not going to say the Europeans didnt know about Timbuktu.


Besides exploiting some slaves, Henry the Navigator started the business of Western Colonization of the world, and also he was the main promotor of the Age of Discovery. He founded the equivalent of NASA for middle age's navigation that turned the world upside down.


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Hello to you all
 
First of all, this link between europe and imperialism and colonisation is simply idiotic. Every great power was imperial/colonial in its own way. Indeed one might even claim, I certainly do, that europe learned imperial government (and indeed modern institutional government) from others specifically China, The Ottomans and the Mughals.
 
The British raj was in a lot of respects a continuation of the Mughal period during its zenith in the period between 1550 and c. 1720 which was in itself an empire built by foreigners who isolated themselves from the rest of the population until their rule ended.
 
The same applies to the Ottomans and the Chinese. These were old empires that ruled in a manner not that different from France or the UK did in the 19th century. One might argue that in some respects they were even worse.
 
Second point. Exploration of the world was not entirely new nor did it begin with Henry the navigator. What was different about the navigator was that for the first time it was a state goal to explore rather than an individual prince or a group of enterprising private citizens goal.
 
It was this involvement of the state, because of the failure of the earlier semi-colonial experiment of the crusades, that helped europe (an age old civilisation with deep connections to the oceans compared with its other competitors) win the race to colonisation.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fusong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2012 at 23:32
I agree with you mostly, I designed this the way it was because there had never been Imperialism on a Global Scale like this before, there was exploration and imperialism long before Henry the Navigator obviously because that is how civilization expanded

I dont think Europe's System was borrowed from China but it morphed simply the conditions were different than from the middle ages
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 2012 at 00:51
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

 
Second point. Exploration of the world was not entirely new nor did it begin with Henry the navigator. What was different about the navigator was that for the first time it was a state goal to explore rather than an individual prince or a group of enterprising private citizens goal.
 
It was this involvement of the state, because of the failure of the earlier semi-colonial experiment of the crusades, that helped europe (an age old civilisation with deep connections to the oceans compared with its other competitors) win the race to colonisation.
 
Al-Jassas


I agree with that. The academy of explorers, geographers and builders at Sagres that Henry the Navigator founded, it was the first exploration "megaproject" the world ever saw. Most of the technology and practises of the following centuries developed at that time. We wouldn't had a Columbus, a Magellian or a Cabot without the foundations of that sailing school.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frederick Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 2012 at 11:08
Henry "the Navigator" didn't do sh*t. It surprises me how many people outside Portugal still fall for this old romantic invention.

Edited by Frederick Roger - 29 Apr 2012 at 12:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 2012 at 13:31
If you know the story of Henry, why don't you tell us?

Henry has been the pride of Portugal for generations, and now you are telling us that his bio is just propaganda. Something invented. Go ahead, tell us the story.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Apr 2012 at 16:37
What was significant about the Portuguese, and other Europeans, was that they were changing in the way they looked at the world at this time. They were willing to push further to explore, and hopefully get rich, and had some means to do so, at at time when others had turned inward, or did not have the technical means to venture far. Societies can become quite static when overly invested in religious or cultural dogma. New inventions tend to reinforce the idea that there is still more down the road, and hence it may be interesting to look.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frederick Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2012 at 11:02
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

If you know the story of Henry, why don't you tell us?

Henry has been the pride of Portugal for generations, and now you are telling us that his bio is just propaganda. Something invented. Go ahead, tell us the story.

Of course his bio is propaganda, it was written by someone under his pay - and still, there isn't a word in it about any mythical school of navigation. Nor on any sources before the 17th century - kind of hard to miss if it was real, don't you think?

Henry has been an extremely romanticized figure since the 19th century, and the 20th century fascist glorifying history took that image and publicized it further, making it a symbol of the nation. Henry hasn't been overall "the pride of Portugal for generations" - only of those indoctrinated under Salazar's regime. 

The unreliability of 15th century sources makes it very hard to have an accurate portrait of Prince Henry, but what is definitely known is this: he was a crown-sanctioned pirate lord, interested in nothing but immediate profit after his vain pursuit of military glory in his early years in North Morocco (the farthest place he ever "navigated" to). 

His official bio also took a lot of credit for the work done by his ill-fated elder brother, Prince-Regent Pedro, who along with his nephew King João II were in all likeness the main proponents of an economic model based on exploring the African coast looking for trade and resources. 

All of this was made for the cause of survival, not exploring for the sake of it. The only real schools of navigation were the ships themselves, manned by desperate hungry people or criminals looking for pardon, captained (sometimes with great success, others rather incompetently) by members of the new nobility born after Aljubarrota.

All of this I've been writing has been published by several Portuguese historians (Magalhães Godinho, Saraiva, Domingos Contente, Marinho dos Santos, etc.) in the last 80 years or so. Foreign historiography on the subject, however, is still pretty much stuck to the 19th century romantic visions. I know, you can understand Portuguese, pinguin, and so while I would be more tolerant with non-speakers, I am a bit disapointed with you for not updating your sources and still believing in the myth of the brave Portuguese explorers and their fearless leader Henry.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2012 at 12:34
Fellow. It was not a pleasure for Spanish or Hispanic American historians to recognize the starter of the Age of Discovery was a Portuguese. However, I was thought since childhood about the importance of Henry the Navigator and his school at Sagres.

It is a bit disapointing that now all of that is believed to be just fascist propaganda. Weird.

You better demolish yours monument to the discoverers in Portugal.


Edited by pinguin - 30 Apr 2012 at 12:35
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Ramesh V.Naivaruni View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ramesh V.Naivaruni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2012 at 14:20
There is no doubt about Portugese ventures in the sea's, most of the expeditions were more to find out new land. They were definetely the king of the seas for quite some time. Regarding Henry the great navigators his accomplishment was State Sponsored it is like what has been happening in North Korea where they say the last ruler could create rain etc.  Henry did not do anything that warrants his mention in the first place.
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