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None Dare Call It Conspiracy

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    Posted: 13 Mar 2014 at 17:19
A book entitled, "None Care call it Conspiracy" was published many years ago.
 
The book alleged that a group of powerful individuals controlled whatever was happening in the world. Or that's my best recollection.
 
Have any members read the book?
 
Can you remind me more of what the book was about please?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2015 at 04:30
If you are still looking for "None Dare Call It Conspiracy" by Gary Allen,you can listen to audio version its public domain, also youtube and free e-book download. Here is a quote;

Excerpt: “When you think about it, there are really only two theories of history. Either things happen by accident neither planned nor caused by anybody, or they happen because they are planned and somebody causes them to happen . . . Why does every recent Administration make the same mistakes as the previous ones? Why do they repeat the errors of the past which produce inflation, depressions and war? Why does our State Department ‘stumble’ from one Communist-aiding ‘blunder’ to another? If you believe it is all an accident or the result of mysterious and unexplainable tides of history, you will be regarded as an ‘intellectual’ who understands that we live in a complex world. If you believe that something like 32,496 consecutive coincidences over the past forty years stretches the law of averages a bit, you are a kook!”

I have not read the book but I'm very familiar with the subject. I've included a link from Gnostic Media.
The notes are exhaustively complete, you may find "None Dare Call It Conspiracy" as a source.

The gist, CIA did /does engage in social engineering "The Noble Lie"
and that's the least of it. A quote:

"Aldous Huxley predicted that drugs would one day become a humane alternative to “flogging” for rulers wishing to control “recalcitrant subjects.” He wrote in a letter to his former student George Orwell in 1949:

But now psycho-analysis is being combined with hypnosis; and hypnosis has been made easy and indefinitely extensible through the use of barbiturates, which induce a hypnoid and suggestible state in even the most recalcitrant subjects.
Within the next generation I believe that the world’s rulers will discover that infant conditioning and narco-hypnosis are more efficient, as instruments of government, than clubs and prisons, and that the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging and kicking them into obedience." [emphasis added] [10]
~ Aldous Huxleyhttp://www.gnosticmedia.com/manufacturing-the-deadhead-a-product-of-social-engineering-by-joe-atwill-and-jan-irvin/https://archive.org/details/NoneDareCallItConspiracy-audiobook

Edited by Vanuatu - 16 May 2015 at 04:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2015 at 08:25
When ever more than two people interact there will be conspiracies.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2015 at 13:47
Might I just say that when more than one person interacts, conspiracies are likely.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2015 at 23:53
Sorry, I have never heard about that book, nut this stamement
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

   “When you think about it, there are really only two theories of history. Either things happen by accident neither planned nor caused by anybody, or they happen because they are planned and somebody causes them to happen . .
does not make it more likely that I will. Take it at face value, and find a truism: Any given event is either planner or not, and of course it seems insane top disagree, but on the other hand there is no informative value in it. So what is the real meaning? Either is every event planned or else every event is "accidental". Suc a statement on the other hand appears plain stupid. Sorry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2015 at 00:20
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

Sorry, I have never heard about that book, nut this stamement
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

   “When you think about it, there are really only two theories of history. Either things happen by accident neither planned nor caused by anybody, or they happen because they are planned and somebody causes them to happen . .
does not make it more likely that I will. Take it at face value, and find a truism: Any given event is either planner or not, and of course it seems insane top disagree, but on the other hand there is no informative value in it. So what is the real meaning? Either is every event planned or else every event is "accidental". Suc a statement on the other hand appears plain stupid. Sorry.


That's ok it may be a stupid quote. I didn't write it though, its from the article cited. Stupid? That's what they want you to think.

Just really applies to events like war and economic disasters like banking bailouts. Or human health crisis and changing lines of demarcation. These, I believe are the "THINGS" being discussed.
Not going to work everyday or food shopping. Are you unfamiliar with Ponzi schemes and CIA paying scientist to build bombs, manufacture LSD and crack cocaine? Maybe that doesn't happen where you live.

Edited by Vanuatu - 19 May 2015 at 00:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2015 at 00:49


For example invasive species rarely take hold without human intervention. The western coast of Europe is losing hundreds of species to the Giant Red King Crab. They were on the other side of the continent just minding their own business. Soviets introduced them to western Europe. Multiple governments conspired to keep prices high and limit fishing forbidding capture of females. Just one example of a 'thing' that happened outside of natural process.
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2015 at 04:58
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

Sorry, I have never heard about that book, nut this stamement
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

   “When you think about it, there are really only two theories of history. Either things happen by accident neither planned nor caused by anybody, or they happen because they are planned and somebody causes them to happen . .
does not make it more likely that I will. Take it at face value, and find a truism: Any given event is either planner or not, and of course it seems insane top disagree, but on the other hand there is no informative value in it. So what is the real meaning? Either is every event planned or else every event is "accidental". Suc a statement on the other hand appears plain stupid. Sorry.


That's ok it may be a stupid quote. I didn't write it though, its from the article cited. Stupid? That's what they want you to think.

Just really applies to events like war and economic disasters like banking bailouts. Or human health crisis and changing lines of demarcation. These, I believe are the "THINGS" being discussed.
Not going to work everyday or food shopping. Are you unfamiliar with Ponzi schemes and CIA paying scientist to build bombs, manufacture LSD and crack cocaine? Maybe that doesn't happen where you live.

Noone (I at least don´t know about them)disagree some events are carefully planned and made to happen. What is controversial is that every event is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2015 at 09:03
Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by fantasus fantasus wrote:

Sorry, I have never heard about that book, nut this stamement
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

   “When you think about it, there are really only two theories of history. Either things happen by accident neither planned nor caused by anybody, or they happen because they are planned and somebody causes them to happen . .
does not make it more likely that I will. Take it at face value, and find a truism: Any given event is either planner or not, and of course it seems insane top disagree, but on the other hand there is no informative value in it. So what is the real meaning? Either is every event planned or else every event is "accidental". Suc a statement on the other hand appears plain stupid. Sorry.


That's ok it may be a stupid quote. I didn't write it though, its from the article cited. Stupid? That's what they want you to think.

Just really applies to events like war and economic disasters like banking bailouts. Or human health crisis and changing lines of demarcation. These, I believe are the "THINGS" being discussed.
Not going to work everyday or food shopping. Are you unfamiliar with Ponzi schemes and CIA paying scientist to build bombs, manufacture LSD and crack cocaine? Maybe that doesn't happen where you live.

Noone (I at least don´t know about them)disagree some events are carefully planned and made to happen. What is controversial is that every event is.

Ah, so I misunderstood you. Then like the author I'm more neurotic with every new piece of conspiratorial material. So I think wait, what about the Butterfly Effect? Who's behind it?

From Annie Hall, a Woody Allen film. 8 year old at the Dr office with mother-

Mrs. Singer: He's been depressed. All of a sudden, he can't do anything.

Dr. Flicker: Why are you depressed, Alvy?

Mrs. Singer: Tell Dr. Flicker. It's something he read.

Dr. Flicker: Something you read, huh?

Alvy Singer: The universe is expanding.

Dr. Flicker: The universe is expanding?

Alvy Singer: Well, the universe is everything, and if it's expanding, someday it will break apart, and that will be the end of everything.

Mrs. Singer: What is that your business? He's stopped doing his homework.

Alvy Singer: What's the point?

Mrs. Singer: What has the universe got to do with it. You're here, in Brooklyn. Brooklyn is not expanding.

Dr. Flicker: It won't be expanding for billions of years yet, Alvy. And we've gotta try and enjoy ourselves while we're here. Huh? Huh? Huh? [laughs]
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2015 at 13:59
How much is just random sh-t? and how much is planned?  How much is stupidity and how much is conspiracy? (not that they're exclusive).  Russia planned to release the crabs in the Atlantic, it might be a conspiracy, but its damn stupid.

Our family had a financial advisor who worked for the CIA, I mean, we didn't know it at the time, but when he died, the people whom he recommended and who picked up our account, later said that they had been approached by the CIA to pick up where he left off for them, but turned them down.  He was a good financial advisor, and the ones that do it now, are good, as far as I can tell, and yes, I believe that they don't have anything to do with CIA in their dealings.
Is there anything that might have hinted that our old advisor was CIA?  The only thing that I can think of is that there was one company that my dad thought was a turkey, but the advisor always argued that we should keep.  The company didn't earn much, but it had heavy machine and so big value, and a lawsuit outstanding that was going to get quite a return, when they won.  So my dad argued against, and he argued for it, and nothing happened, we kept the company.  But that was 35 years ago, and there has been a lot of water under the bridge.  CIA people have an agenda, but most people have some kind of agenda, and most of their dealings are not within that agenda.  Wasson, for example, is amazing, and to me the fact that he also had a CIA hat means that someone serious, treated him serious, and not just as a fringe individual.  He would be interesting, if he was just fringe, but this means that also had some major clout that went beyond the hippies reading his stuff, wanting to get high.

My point is, "nobody suspects the Spanish Inquisition!", my point is the CIA has their fingers in a lot of places, but so does the FBI, MI5-MI6, KGB and a whole lot of other TLAs.  "They" don't control it, they're just nudging one way or the other at various opportune times.  But, you too can play the market if you want to do so.


Edited by franciscosan - 20 May 2015 at 16:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2015 at 14:40
Anytime more than three  people get together there will be conspiracies, it is our nature.  There is nothing wrong with conspiracy theories only the way we go about testing them.  

We have evolved to see the predatory or prey in every shadow because it is better to be wrong a hundred times than miss the one opportunity to avoid getting eaten or to eat.  This evolutionary predisposition does not lend itself well to objective decisions based on evidence.  Even so I would prefer that people see conspiracies where there are none than go through life not looking in the shadows.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2015 at 23:54
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:


How much is just random sh-t? and how much is planned?  How much is stupidity and how much is conspiracy? (not that they're exclusive).  Russia planned to release the crabs in the Atlantic, it might be a conspiracy, but its damn stupid.

Our family had a financial advisor who worked for the CIA, I mean, we didn't know it at the time, but when he died, the people whom he recommended and who picked up our account, later said that they had been approached by the CIA to pick up where he left off for them, but turned them down.  He was a good financial advisor, and the ones that do it now, are good, as far as I can tell, and yes, I believe that they don't have anything to do with CIA in their dealings.
Is there anything that might have hinted that our old advisor was CIA?  The only thing that I can think of is that there was one company that my dad thought was a turkey, but the advisor always argued that we should keep.  The company didn't earn much, but it had heavy machine and so big value, and a lawsuit outstanding that was going to get quite a return, when they won.  So my dad argued against, and he argued for it, and nothing happened, we kept the company.  But that was 35 years ago, and there has been a lot of water under the bridge.  CIA people have an agenda, but most people have some kind of agenda, and most of their dealings are not within that agenda.  Wasson, for example, is amazing, and to me the fact that he also had a CIA hat means that someone serious, treated him serious, and not just as a fringe individual.  He would be interesting, if he was just fringe, but this means that also had some major clout that went beyond the hippies reading his stuff, wanting to get high.

My point is, "nobody suspects the Spanish Inquisition!", my point is the CIA has their fingers in a lot of places, but so does the FBI, MI5-MI6, KGB and a whole lot of other TLAs.  "They" don't control it, they're just nudging one way or the other at various opportune times.  But, you too can play the market if you want to do so.



Regarding Soviet crab plan, I gotta give them a pass on the original idea. Stupid yes but this was long before issues like invasive species were obvious problems. Soviets wanted to feed people, the intention not evil as far as I can tell.

The conspiracy between governments of controlling fishing practices to keep prices high is really the problem. Now those crabs are like hoovers all along the sea floor moving toward the Arctic Shelf now that the water has warmed a bit. They are going to wipe out all animal diversity from the Arctic to Denmark, in fact Britain is also feeling the effects of this species.

Yea Wasson is amazing alright but he is also a plagiarist his ideas on the mushroom were not from the newlywed fairly tale story told in Life magazine. His own daughter doubted the story and I can provide links for that argument if you like.
Do you know the kind of trouble he created for Maria Sabina and the Oaxaca Indians?

He blamed her for the swarms of hippies who flocked to Huautla de Jimenez causing much grief to the local population. Sabina only talked to Wasson because he showed up with the mayor who told her to tell Wasson what she knew.

Thousands of years of oral history-hand it over because rich white man said so. Major clout, you got that right. And he made a ton of money (and no one made him sit in comfy chair!).

I agree There are lots of agencies from other governments who engage in social engineering. An individual can play, "THEY" take orders "THEY" say when it's game over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2015 at 00:09
Originally posted by wolfhnd wolfhnd wrote:

Anytime more than three  people get together there will be conspiracies, it is our nature.  There is nothing wrong with conspiracy theories only the way we go about testing them.  

We have evolved to see the predatory or prey in every shadow because it is better to be wrong a hundred times than miss the one opportunity to avoid getting eaten or to eat.  This evolutionary predisposition does not lend itself well to objective decisions based on evidence.  Even so I would prefer that people see conspiracies where there are none than go through life not looking in the shadows.


Wolfie are you saying that its in our genes? Is there a conspiracy gene?

A moth has twice as many genes as humans have. Mapping the genome has explained much less than was expected.

So is it part of the amygdala?

Not saying you're wrong just asking if you would please expand on that idea of evolution influencing conspiracy.

To my thinking, based on what I have witnessed in my life, I think we have been generationally discouraged from following natural tendencies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2015 at 02:42
No conspiracy gene just a predisposition to see things where there are only shadows.

Formulating conspiracy theories is a good thing believing in them without evidence is not.  Keeping yourself well informed is part of price of admission into the "moral agent club" so we are not talking about conspiracy theories that are just flights of fancy.    


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 2015 at 03:02
Originally posted by wolfhnd wolfhnd wrote:

No conspiracy gene just a predisposition to see things where there are only shadows.

Formulating conspiracy theories is a good thing believing in them without evidence is not.  Keeping yourself well informed is part of price of admission into the "moral agent club" so we are not talking about conspiracy theories that are just flights of fancy.    




Good answer.

All one need do is study the Medici of the Renaissance to see that pirates can be made Pope and Bonfires can consume the advance of humanity and the freedom to pursue ideas.

Also like what you say about keeping informed. Much easier these days. Maybe why so much archival information is shedding light on century old conspiracies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2015 at 20:38
All the news fitted to print!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2015 at 20:32
Powerful people controlling world affairs? It's a popular basis for conspiracy theory cults but hasn't anyone noticed the substitution of these anonymous individuals in place of Gods? It's exactly the same precept - that the world is mysterious and beyond our power to control, so we imagine forces are controlling it for their own purposes just as we did back in the days when a warm dry cave was a des res. Truth of the matter is that powerful individuals struggle to control affairs anyway. Sure, they have power and can click their fingers generally, but note that their power becomes insecure as it becomes more pervasive. The same social pressures to change leadership exist in human society just as much as the animal kingdom - there is no fundamental difference - thus the dominant alpha male can't just assume power and enjoy it - he has to protect it against rivals. Thus our mysterious powermongers would simply fight amongst themselves in the same way - no human society can exist without some internal conflict and indeed in biological terms change is necessary to keep the species virile. Further - and most importantly - in our modern age of invasive media and investigative journalism - how on Earth could these supposed manipulators possibly wield so much power without being identified? The whole concept is just stupid.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2015 at 21:11
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Powerful people controlling world affairs? It's a popular basis for conspiracy theory cults but hasn't anyone noticed the substitution of these anonymous individuals in place of Gods? It's exactly the same precept - that the world is mysterious and beyond our power to control, so we imagine forces are controlling it for their own purposes just as we did back in the days when a warm dry cave was a des res. Truth of the matter is that powerful individuals struggle to control affairs anyway. Sure, they have power and can click their fingers generally, but note that their power becomes insecure as it becomes more pervasive. The same social pressures to change leadership exist in human society just as much as the animal kingdom - there is no fundamental difference - thus the dominant alpha male can't just assume power and enjoy it - he has to protect it against rivals. Thus our mysterious powermongers would simply fight amongst themselves in the same way - no human society can exist without some internal conflict and indeed in biological terms change is necessary to keep the species virile. Further - and most importantly - in our modern age of invasive media and investigative journalism - how on Earth could these supposed manipulators possibly wield so much power without being identified? The whole concept is just stupid.

Yes but kings ruled by divine right and few questioned it.  Was it a conspiracy?  I suspect that at least the other kings question the divine rights of their rivals.  If a commoner however questioned those rights it was off with their heads so yes it was a conspiracy to maintain the social order through open deceit.  It isn't so much that we can't identify the conspirators but the conspiracy is often hard to see even when it is in plain sight.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2015 at 02:59
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Powerful people controlling world affairs? It's a popular basis for conspiracy theory cults but hasn't anyone noticed the substitution of these anonymous individuals in place of Gods? It's exactly the same precept - that the world is mysterious and beyond our power to control, so we imagine forces are controlling it for their own purposes just as we did back in the days when a warm dry cave was a des res. Truth of the matter is that powerful individuals struggle to control affairs anyway. Sure, they have power and can click their fingers generally, but note that their power becomes insecure as it becomes more pervasive. The same social pressures to change leadership exist in human society just as much as the animal kingdom - there is no fundamental difference - thus the dominant alpha male can't just assume power and enjoy it - he has to protect it against rivals. Thus our mysterious powermongers would simply fight amongst themselves in the same way - no human society can exist without some internal conflict and indeed in biological terms change is necessary to keep the species virile. Further - and most importantly - in our modern age of invasive media and investigative journalism - how on Earth could these supposed manipulators possibly wield so much power without being identified? The whole concept is just stupid.


Duly noted. Yes its not so easy to keep information hidden anymore. Powerful people evolve too, faster than we can I'd wager. Your point?
The Truth is -any matter that is perceived.

In human history the few control the many. Is the fact that they fight to maintain supremacy a reason to deny the existence of hegemony, warmongering and genocide?

How is the power of a few wielded when we have MSNBC lookin' out?

Did you know this time last year that Syrian rebels, Al Nusrah, were being funded by the US, UK, Saudi Arabia, Qatar? Did you know that UK tries handing out life sentences to individuals from UK caught fighting for Al Nusrah in Syria?

Did you know that the afore mentioned countries helped the group responsible for Sarin gas attacks, death, displacement of millions of Syrians?

Such integrity, then you end on "just stupid."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2015 at 03:02
http://www.moralobjectivity.net/hellenisticethics.html

Caldrail, wonder if your conspiracy hang up has something to do with non dualism. All masters agree that even one relieved of conceptual
thought must to some degree work within a dualist frame work.

Correcting created concepts does further non dualist understanding however incrementally. Just the correction of not throwing Ritalin at children is a major advance.

David Lynch has sponsored a school in Iowa, k-12 (they have graduated some kids who have had 13 years of TM at school) and a University teaching Transcendental Meditation. They are learning concepts, throwing away useless concepts and understanding the integration of love at a sub atomic level.   

Hellenistic non dualism
"The strongest approach to conceptual non-dualism appears among the Sceptics. As Flintoff (1980) argues, there are no good reasons to disbelieve the story that Pyrrho, the founder of Scepticism, visited India and was profoundly influenced by the Hindu and Buddhist “gymnosophists” he encountered there: the non-dualistic aspects of Scepticism may well have thus been adapted from Indian sources. According to Sextus Empiricus’s definition, quoted by Nussbaum (1994), scepticism is “an ability to set up an opposition of appearances and thoughts…from which we come, through the equal force of the opposing statements and states of affairs, first into suspension (epoché) and after that into freedom from disturbance (ataraxia).” (p.285). This technique appears geared to produce a sort of cognitive non-dualism, whereby false dichotomies of belief are opposed to each other in order to transcend both polarities, though there appears to be much more emphasis on this negative process than on any positive process of experiencing non-duality.



The Sceptic account of ataraxia gives even more grounds for thinking that there is at least a conceptual idea of transcending the self involved: “Ataraxia just comes by chance, tuchikos, as a result of a process he is following out of some non-dogmatic motivation – say, because it is his trade. He does not seek it out, he does not believe in it: it just happens to him”(Nussbaum 1994 p.300). Here we have a remarkable resemblance to the idea of tariki or “other power” found in Pure Land Buddhism: a notion arising from the realisation that the non-dual may be experienced, not as the union of self and other, but as other, entirely beyond ones own efforts. As Sangharaksh*ta explains tariki: “The compassion of all the Buddhas, though transcending all the categories of thought, including those of subject and object, appears to our ego-distorted perception as a force which acts on us externally – as the Other Power” (Sangharaksh*ta 1957 p.378). "


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2015 at 13:13
Actually, there is a good reason to disbelieve the story, if you are a Pyrrhonic sceptic and withhold belief towards everything.  If you are a Pyrrhonic sceptic, whether Indian sources are the source of your thinking, is, shall we say, immaterial;) or rather it is part of the very material (but not physical) of your scepticism.  If you are not a Pyrrhonic sceptic, well then maybe you can consider Indian Gymnosophists as the origin of Pyrrhonic scepticism, but then again you would be outside the "mentality" of Pyrrhonic scepticism.  Either in or out.  Flintoff, I imagine, is an academic (academic sceptic??, probably not), and so is able to look down upon scepticism and the gymnosophists from a pseudo-omniscient perspective.  But my guess is that he is outside the sceptic perspective, looking at it like one looks at a bug, noting the beautiful wings, but outside nevertheless....

Of course, I am not an expert on ancient scepticism, I am just taking the logic of what I know about scepticism, and applying it.<grin>

btw. Nussbaum is tops.  Haven't read her book (_Fragility_of_Goodness_), but saw her speak in '85-6.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2015 at 14:25
franciscosan, it seems impossible to distinguish what 'thoughts' are. Do they come from a belief system, inspiration , intuition or influence? Even the idea of getting a good grade at school is only meaningful if someone has taught you that good grades are desirable.
Suspicion creeps in when ideas that are contrary to long held beliefs start to make more sense. Does the CIA run around dosing people with LSD? Not anymore... are you sure?


"A better example of non-dualistic practices in the Hellenistic philosophical tradition seems to be offered by the Cynics, though in a disorganised and unsystematic form. Diogenes, generally acknowledged as the first Cynic, is said to have attacked all customs and conventions, arguing that there were no universal moral standards (Dudley 1967 p.30), and to have gone out of his way to demonstrate his detachment from conventions by individualistically flouting them (ibid. p.37). At the same time he had a positive ethic of askesis or training (ibid. p.32-3). Diogenes, then, was willing to live his scepticism at least in the negative sense of flouting conventions rather than negatively going along with them, in this respect expressing a non-dualistic approach in a similar fashion to the Tantric adepts of India and Tibet, and at least to have had some positive ethical doctrines, even if it is not very clear from the existing records how these were connected with his non-dualistic outlook."http://www.moralobjectivity.net/hellenisticethics.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2015 at 16:35
Do you know what dualistic practices are?  Well, you are talking about non-dualistic practices, which by definition must be the opposite of (or negation of) dualistic practices.  If I am talking about not-big, I must be talking about small, if I am talking about not red, I am talking about some other color, perhaps a primary one, like red is (but not red).  So what are non-dualistic practices?

Diogenes of Sinope did not believe in 'customary' moral standards, but he did believe in a personal ethics.
I seem to remember that the Cynics also didn't believe in (an ancient system of) physics, but I can't find that in a quick look at Diogenes Laertius.
It may seem like I am just trying to give you a hard time, the quotes you are finding are insightful, but I am not sure you understand that if Pyrrhonic scepticism is true, then it doesn't matter whether it comes from India or not.  Also, I have a good idea of what calling Pyrrho or Diogenes of Sinope a non-dualist, might mean but then again, I am over educated in absolutely useless things:P  Do you understand, (not for my sake, but for your own sake), what it means to call Diogenes or Pyrrho a "non-dualist."  Again, you don't have to answer, but I am listening if you care to bounce anything off of me.
CIA doesn't care about crazy philosophers, but I _am_ waiting for the Freemasons to make me an offer on my researches on Pythagorean coins;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2015 at 00:29
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Do you know what dualistic practices are?  Well, you are talking about non-dualistic practices, which by definition must be the opposite of (or negation of) dualistic practices.  If I am talking about not-big, I must be talking about small, if I am talking about not red, I am talking about some other color, perhaps a primary one, like red is (but not red).  So what are non-dualistic practices?

Diogenes of Sinope did not believe in 'customary' moral standards, but he did believe in a personal ethics.
I seem to remember that the Cynics also didn't believe in (an ancient system of) physics, but I can't find that in a quick look at Diogenes Laertius.
It may seem like I am just trying to give you a hard time, the quotes you are finding are insightful, but I am not sure you understand that if Pyrrhonic scepticism is true, then it doesn't matter whether it comes from India or not.  Also, I have a good idea of what calling Pyrrho or Diogenes of Sinope a non-dualist, might mean but then again, I am over educated in absolutely useless things:P  Do you understand, (not for my sake, but for your own sake), what it means to call Diogenes or Pyrrho a "non-dualist."  Again, you don't have to answer, but I am listening if you care to bounce anything off of me.
CIA doesn't care about crazy philosophers, but I _am_ waiting for the Freemasons to make me an offer on my researches on Pythagorean coins;)


Ok then I'll tell you what I think and you can correct me. Dualistic practices imply that there are separate individuals.

No modern Vedic masters talk about conspiracy. They would say that the moment you think of being a separate self, you have made an error. You are the fragmented Brahman, part of a system that is singular and makes progress that becomes reliable. ie We can be assured that we are on the planet earth.

Diogenes rejects Aristotle's Teleological view of the universe, correct?
He does have personal discipline, his behavior is important. Like U.G. Krishnamurti, Nihilism. We are everything or we are nothing. He sees hypocrisy (conspiracy?) and only wants to be held to account for what he does.

The reason I posted the connection to Vedanta and India is simply because that was the first mention of anything remotely like conspiracy I've seen in connection with non dualism.

Whether those connections were actually made or are responsible for the Skeptics and Cynics I could never say. I enjoyed entertaining the idea because there is a pattern of seeing a problem, reasoning, resolution and a relief when some idea can be called the Truth. That does not defy non dualism.

Non dualistic practices are negation of thought. You have desires, ideas, inspiration and so forth. What about fears, prejudice, jealousy, false beliefs? Non dualism means working towards recognizing irrational thought and not allowing thought to trigger negative emotional responses that bring about negative behavior. This includes group behavior as well as the individual.

Now please tell me about Diogenes. I think he was a Nihilist. Pyrrho?

Edited by Vanuatu - 16 Jun 2015 at 01:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2015 at 01:23
Ok I've read up on Pyrrho, he certainly does hold beliefs that 'seem like' non duality.

The idea that perspective varies from person to person.

The thinking that nothing can be known for certain. Yeah, he's practically saying all is "Maya" the Vedic term for the illusory veil, or hologram. Again I'm not saying he learned from India.

Edited by Vanuatu - 16 Jun 2015 at 01:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2015 at 01:41
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Do you know what dualistic practices are? Well, you are talking about non-dualistic practices, which by definition must be the opposite of (or negation of) dualistic practices. If I am talking about not-big, I must be talking about small, if I am talking about not red, I am talking about some other color, perhaps a primary one, like red is (but not red). So what are non-dualistic practices?


Do you know the difference between acting on emotions vs recognizing random conceptual thoughts?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2015 at 10:21
The dualism that most people think of, for Western Philosophy, is mental (or spiritual) realm, "versus" physical (or material) realm.  Or, to put it another way, form and content.  However, one could also talk about that which is uncreated (usually God, or for that matter, reality) versus that which is created (creatures).  Ancient philosophy was more about practice, and less about conceptualization, than we usually recognize.  The philosopher probably "felt" what he knew, rather than intellectualizing it.
This view of ancient philosophy as practice is pretty much the focus of Pierre Hadot.

If a pretty girl walks by, and I am distracted, is that random?  On the contrary, it is most predictable.  I am not sure what a "random conceptual thoughts" are.  There are causes for everything we think, although we may not recognize them, and thus we think of them coming to us at random.  Contrary, "acting on emotions" often has a negative implication, as if we are just being blown willy-nilly (willing or not) by the wind.  But, I think I would agree with David Hume (a modern academic sceptic) that we are always acting on emotions.  I would add, even when (or especially when) we are trying to be our most rational.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 2015 at 21:41
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

The dualism that most people think of, for Western Philosophy, is mental (or spiritual) realm, "versus" physical (or material) realm.  Or, to put it another way, form and content.  However, one could also talk about that which is uncreated (usually God, or for that matter, reality) versus that which is created (creatures).  Ancient philosophy was more about practice, and less about conceptualization, than we usually recognize.  The philosopher probably "felt" what he knew, rather than intellectualizing it.
This view of ancient philosophy as practice is pretty much the focus of Pierre Hadot.

If a pretty girl walks by, and I am distracted, is that random?  On the contrary, it is most predictable.  I am not sure what a "random conceptual thoughts" are.  There are causes for everything we think, although we may not recognize them, and thus we think of them coming to us at random.  Contrary, "acting on emotions" often has a negative implication, as if we are just being blown willy-nilly (willing or not) by the wind.  But, I think I would agree with David Hume (a modern academic sceptic) that we are always acting on emotions.  I would add, even when (or especially when) we are trying to be our most rational.



There is a great deal of intellectualizing in ancient philosophy. Maybe a new thread.

If you see a pretty girl, assuming that you haven't been stalking her, then its reflexive as you say. Or random as I said. It's Pavlovian, a male friend once confided to me that men will look at any breasts whether they look good or not.

The random conceptual thoughts will run the gamut of possible responses based on what an individual has been told or has learned to think about, as in your example, a pretty girl.

If an individual recognizes that 'thought' is learned conceptualized programming then he or she can avoid the emotional trap. An Orthodox Jew or Arab might make every effort to avoid looking at the pretty girl. He might even refuse to sit near her on a plane.

The concept triggers an emotional response. There is an interplay within the mind when thoughts trigger emotional responses. Some almost unnoticed others are strongly felt, still others can be completely dominating.

Advaita Vedanta seeks to neutralize the effect of thought, stabilize the mind and allow for creative and peaceful existence. Or 'praxis' as in Pureland Buddhism mentioned in the article on the Skeptics. In Zen the achievement is the "positionless position" or "neither not one and not two." So there is no emotional trigger to a conceptualized thought. Thought comes and goes like a train at the station. You stay on the platform. I would agree with the late David Bohm who did think it possible to act without emotional pressure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2015 at 06:40
Isn't it interesting that "late" can mean tardy, dead, or pregnant?

I have a book by David Bohm, haven't read it though.

I am not a stalker, I might leer and sometimes droll, but I am not a stalker<grin>.

But, seriously, I am trying more to ignore women that are younger than me, but not age appropriate (me 48), if they say something and want conversation, that's different.  But, women like men looking at them, but they really only like certain kinds of men looking at them, not (relatively) old geezers like me.

But, I understand the Orthodox Jew or Arab who avoids contact, if there was a girl there in a Hijab, I might feel a little self-conscious about sitting next to her.  (a burka would be really strange).  One doesn't want to impose.
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