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Noah's ark revisited

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug 2019 at 06:52
Well, the subject of Romans was a bit of surprise in a thread about Noah Arks.

I am confident the Biblical story of Noah's Ark is from Sumner, and was a story about many gods that was plagiarized by Abraham's people when they were in Ur, a former Sumerian city.   Here is a brief explanation of the Sumerian story.  https://www.historywiz.com/flood.htm

I believe the story of how the Jews got this flood story goes with the idea that the Jews originated in Egypt during the rule of Akhenaten.  Following is a link explaining him.  Some believe when his holy city was destroyed his followers fled Egypt and ended up in Ur, a former Sumner city and biblical place  where Abraham began his trek back to Egypt.  It was very important to Akhenaten to research actives for knowledge of the true god, and he was very strong on family and education values.  If his people did migrate to Ur, they obviously studied the archives there blending the one God of Akhenaten with Sumerian stories.  

The link says Egypt's former religion was gradually restored.  I serious doubt the return to the old religion was gradual.  I would bet the priest Akhenaten put out of business went underground and came back as fast as they could.   People do not take well to their gods not being appeased, and Egypt lost power during Akhenaten's time.  They must have been very glad to appease their gods and get their lives back in order as soon as possible.  

Quote  Akhenaten tried to shift his culture from Egypt's traditional religion, but the shifts were not widely accepted. After his death, his monuments were dismantled and hidden, his statues were destroyed, and his name excluded from the king lists.[12] Traditional religious practice was gradually restored, and when some dozen years later rulers without clear rights of succession from the 18th Dynasty founded a new dynasty, they discredited Akhenaten and his immediate successors, referring to Akhenaten himself as "the enemy" or "that criminal" in archival records.[13]  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 11:29
Originally posted by Athena Athena wrote:

Well, the subject of Romans was a bit of surprise in a thread about Noah Arks.
Right, that's bc this is continued from an old thread was accidentally deleted ,toyomotor?
It represents a lot of time and interest from this group.

Quote I am confident the Biblical story of Noah's Ark is from Sumner, and was a story about many gods that was plagiarized by Abraham's people when they were in Ur, a former Sumerian city.   Here is a brief explanation of the Sumerian story.  https://www.historywiz.com/flood.htm
Multiple places experienced devastating flash flooding over eons in different parts of the world. That doesn't make the Bible plagiarized. You try to draw that conclusion as a convenience, intellectual laziness.
Be honest, this past year we had deaths from flash flooding.



Edited by Vanuatu - 05 Aug 2019 at 11:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 11:45
Actually, there was a Roman Emperor who had the ark on a coin, on the coin it is just a box but it is meant to be the ark, it is on the coin of (if I remember right) Septimus Severus.  The emperor was very syncretic.  Kind of like Bao Daism in '50s Vietnam.

It could also be that the Noah is a nickname (since it is playing an etymological game) actually for Utnapishtim, and so the Abrahamic tradition is in the lineage of the priesthood of Utnapishtim.

plagiarism is such a harsh term in this context, it is not like things were copyrighted or exclusive cultural intelectual property.  It is an interesting question of which came first, but they are stories and so later versions might be more interesting because the story has developed.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 12:16
I think Freud liked the idea of the Israelite monotheism (actually, henotheism) coming from Akhenaten.  But, the real important part of Judaism was the form of the covenant, which in some ways is like a Suzerainty-Vassal Treaty turned inward to make Yahweh the Suzerain, and the Israelite people the vassals.  The Suzerainty-Vassal Treaty is prevalent in the Mesopotamian region.  A Suzerainty-Vassal Treaty was between a big, client king, and lesser vassal kings.  The vassals had to have an exclusive relationship with the Suzerain (although they probably were allowed to relate to each other).  The treaty gave them responsibilities and probably rights.  At the end, it specified what would happen if they did not carry out their responsibilities.  

But, the turning inward of the Suzerainty-Vassal Treaty between a God and a people is something new.  Akenaten worshipping the sun disk does not have that level of sophistication.  Of course, not all scholars go by the Suzerainty-Vassal Treaty theory of the covenant, still there is a complexity and sophistication to the Jewish covenant that other religions did not have at that time.  Not that religions were as separate as we like to think, back then.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2019 at 02:39
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I think Freud liked the idea of the Israelite monotheism (actually, henotheism) coming from Akhenaten.  But, the real important part of Judaism was the form of the covenant, which in some ways is like a Suzerainty-Vassal Treaty turned inward to make Yahweh the Suzerain, and the Israelite people the vassals.  The Suzerainty-Vassal Treaty is prevalent in the Mesopotamian region.  A Suzerainty-Vassal Treaty was between a big, client king, and lesser vassal kings.  The vassals had to have an exclusive relationship with the Suzerain (although they probably were allowed to relate to each other).  The treaty gave them responsibilities and probably rights.  At the end, it specified what would happen if they did not carry out their responsibilities.  

But, the turning inward of the Suzerainty-Vassal Treaty between a God and a people is something new.  Akenaten worshipping the sun disk does not have that level of sophistication.  Of course, not all scholars go by the Suzerainty-Vassal Treaty theory of the covenant, still there is a complexity and sophistication to the Jewish covenant that other religions did not have at that time.  Not that religions were as separate as we like to think, back then.

I read an explanation of the Suzerainty-Vassal Treaty Joshua, God, and the promised land.  I am impressed by how worldly it is.  Yes, I would say the suxarain  was probably  jealous, revengeful, fearsome and punishing.  It does sound like the consciousness of the time did become an explanation of a relationship with an imagined God.   Wasn't it common for all these people to have a patron god or goddess who had to be appeased to have the blessings and protection of the god/goddess.   What is in question is how did this consciousness become a notion of that there  can be only one true god instead of always believing there are many gods and those with the most powerful god win wars.

In a world where everyone believes those with the most powerful god win wars, and it is invading Romans with better military technology, who win the wars, of course, they have the strongest god, right?  This is ideal for conversion.  Adopting the customs, stories and celebrations shared by all humans who experience the changing seasons, and giving it all a Christian meaning, was another part of the conversion.   

As I understand history Akhenaten was not a not a king of war, and his understanding of the true god was not a god of war.  Not at all a war god, but a god that had strong family values and encouraged learning.  The followers of the God of Abraham also have strong family values and are very much into learning.  That is why I think they translated the Sumerian stories and corrected them to fit their idea of one god.  Here is a comparison between Akhenaten's Hymn and Psalm of the Bible. 

It may be helpful to clarify the god Christians worship is a god of war.  Maybe that realization would make us a little less insane, talking of a god of love and complete organized around the power of war and incapable of dealing with the suffering of the world other than to build walls and weapons of mass destruction to destroy those who have weapons of mass destruction.  

Thanks for the explanation of suxarain.  It does make the Bible more understandable.   Oh, and I do not believe there was a lot of religious differences in the past.  It all comes from the same consciousness, only different environments can result is slightly different consciousness.  For example Genghis Khan thought it was insane to believe there is a sky god who cares about people and their well being.  Those in the east believed in demons because of their environment and around the time of Jesus, those demons had a stronger role to play in the religion.   The sky god of Genghis Khan could not care less about people and just assume kill them in deadly storms.  Whereas live in the crescent was abundant in food and easy, so it was easier to believe in caring fertility goddess, and then a caring sky god. The Christian notion that God sent the Mongols to punish them, reduced their ability to form a good defense.   I don't think we have to worry about fearing God's punishment today.  We know we are this God's favorite people and He loves us.  Heart


Edited by Athena - 11 Aug 2019 at 02:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2019 at 11:12
In the decalogue, the first commandment is, "thou shalt not have any other gods before me."  The Israelites 'recognized' that there were other gods, they just couldn't recognize them/acknowledge them.  Later that becomes there is only one God, but that is not how it is in the Pentateuch (first five books of the Bible)

But, the Christian God is not a god of war.  He was the God of slaves and women.  The biggest thing that Jesus as God did, was suffer.  Thus, God became one of us.


Edited by franciscosan - 11 Aug 2019 at 13:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athena Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2019 at 01:48
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

In the decalogue, the first commandment is, "thou shalt not have any other gods before me."  The Israelites 'recognized' that there were other gods, they just couldn't recognize them/acknowledge them.  Later that becomes there is only one God, but that is not how it is in the Pentateuch (first five books of the Bible)

But, the Christian God is not a god of war.  He was the God of slaves and women.  The biggest thing that Jesus as God did, was suffer.  Thus, God became one of us.

You are saying God became a mortal?  When He walked in the garden with Adam and Eve, evidently He had human form but we was not human?   So if He became human when did that happen if it did happen?  And really, God's personality changed?  If He isn't a war god why is the US denying the poor health care while enjoying being the most expensive and strongest military force on earth?  It is the Christian Right, followers of Bill Graham who are gun ho for war.  Billy Graham told us God wants us to send our young to serve in the war with Iraq, that many of us think Bush and Cheney should face war crime charges for getting us into that, and the women forced to flee with their children should receive a large compensation for what they went through.  We didn't invade their country prepared to defend them!  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2019 at 07:52
Through Jesus, God came to know suffering, which is a very odd thing for a God to come to know.  Jesus never ran anyone through with a spear or a sword, but he was stabbed in the side with a spear.  If he was placed on this Earth to conquer and kick ass, he had a very odd way to do it.

The shortest line in the Bible is, "and Jesus wept." when he saw what would be done in his name.  So, I am not sure why you are talking about Billy Graham or for that matter Bush or Cheney.  Although, I am sure that each of them would consider themselves imperfect and incomplete in how they follow Christ.  It is easy to be perfect, if you are already there.  On the other hand, it is hard to _become_ perfect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2019 at 12:11
Haven't finished it, but looks interesting:  "Noah's Flood and the Development of Geology" by David Montgomery on youtube.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 2019 at 13:17
If I can't see it, smell it, hear it, taste it or touch it, does it exist?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2019 at 13:52
You're right, obliviousness is a reason deny the existence of things, it may not be a "good" reason, but for the oblivious, they won't know the difference.  I am not sure what your point is, toyomotor....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2019 at 19:09
My point is, that in common with other ancient tales, there is no proof really that it existed .

If we confine the worlds animals to the known world, do you really think that they all would have fitted on the Ark?

My point is, show me some proof.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 03:41
Let me reassure you the story existed, back into ancient times, there is a Sumerian version,
and a Greek, and others.  Floods happen, that is a certain reality, and the stories are based
on that.
As far as seeking to prove or disprove the story, I find that ridiculous.
If you are a believer, you take it on faith that the flood or something like that,
happened.  If you are not a believer no matter how much "proof" you are
offered is not going to convince you.  If you are a smart believer or disbeliever
you will realize that that is not the point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 14:58
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Let me reassure you the story existed, back into ancient times, there is a Sumerian version, and a Greek, and others.  Floods happen, that is a certain reality, and the stories are based
on that.
As far as seeking to prove or disprove the story, I find that ridiculous.
If you are a believer, you take it on faith that the flood or something like that,
happened.  If you are not a believer no matter how much "proof" you are
offered is not going to convince you.  If you are a smart believer or disbeliever
you will realize that that is not the point.

I haven't challenged the fact that there was a major flood event, I challenge the stories that two of every animal in the known world was loaded onto a boat in order to save them.

You may call seeking the truth rediculous, but isn't that what scientists do every day?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2019 at 17:11
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Let me reassure you the story existed, back into ancient times, there is a Sumerian version, and a Greek, and others.  Floods happen, that is a certain reality, and the stories are based
on that.
As far as seeking to prove or disprove the story, I find that ridiculous.
If you are a believer, you take it on faith that the flood or something like that,
happened.  If you are not a believer no matter how much "proof" you are
offered is not going to convince you.  If you are a smart believer or disbeliever
you will realize that that is not the point.

I haven't challenged the fact that there was a major flood event, I challenge the stories that two of every animal in the known world was loaded onto a boat in order to save them.

You may call seeking the truth rediculous, but isn't that what scientists do every day?


Science is searching with it's tunnel vision. For an ancient population, the known world could have been an island. 
Assume we can't be sure of the point about two of every kind of animal.
Could this not simply mean, two birds, two cows, two goats ?
You know animals that people can normally get their hands on, domesticated stock animals. Hmmm?Wink
If you don't let that part enter into it, is it really unbelievable?
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2019 at 13:07
Mark Twain pointed out that beetles alone (with all the species) would be enough to sink the ark.  But, I don't think of the story as an factual description.  Look at the tale of Gilgamesh compared to the Iliad and the Odyssey.  Like Gilgamesh, the Biblical stories seem like skeletons made by priestly scribes, whereas the Iliad and Odyssey are all fleshed out.  Now imagine what a bard or poet would do with Sampson, or Jacob/Israel, or Joseph, or Moses.  Now, I am not knocking the priestly scribes, they are succinctly copying down the essence of these stories.  And recopying them, and yes, altering them often in the process.  But if you are looking for 'the facts,' then you are probably anachronistically imposing a kind of secular reality that would be out of place in Davidic Israel (or before). That is one reason to deal with the original thing, or at least as original as you can make it, given the issues of translation.  We try to retell Biblical stories in order to remove the difficulties.  But those 'difficulties' are part of the texture which shows the stories to be authentic, and real.

There are two different versions of the call for animals, one version is two of everything, the other is six of clean animals, and two of unclean animals.  Is this a contradiction?  I prefer to think of it as two different scribal traditions, each pushing his agenda.  Should we criticize the Bible for not selecting "for" us the correct one?  Or maybe we should praise it for not deciding, and being inclusive of multiple traditions.  Not that what the ancient scribes were doing, has anything to do with our modern mantra of "inclusiveness."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 2019 at 17:52
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Let me reassure you the story existed, back into ancient times, there is a Sumerian version, and a Greek, and others.  Floods happen, that is a certain reality, and the stories are based
on that.
As far as seeking to prove or disprove the story, I find that ridiculous.
If you are a believer, you take it on faith that the flood or something like that,
happened.  If you are not a believer no matter how much "proof" you are
offered is not going to convince you.  If you are a smart believer or disbeliever
you will realize that that is not the point.

I haven't challenged the fact that there was a major flood event, I challenge the stories that two of every animal in the known world was loaded onto a boat in order to save them.

You may call seeking the truth rediculous, but isn't that what scientists do every day?


Science is searching with it's tunnel vision. For an ancient population, the known world could have been an island.  
Assume we can't be sure of the point about two of every kind of animal.
Could this not simply mean, two birds, two cows, two goats ?
You know animals that people can normally get their hands on, domesticated stock animals. Hmmm?Wink
If you don't let that part enter into it, is it really unbelievable?

Yes, you're quite right. But you know me, a cynic from way back.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Sep 2019 at 22:33
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Let me reassure you the story existed, back into ancient times, there is a Sumerian version, and a Greek, and others.  Floods happen, that is a certain reality, and the stories are based
on that.
As far as seeking to prove or disprove the story, I find that ridiculous.
If you are a believer, you take it on faith that the flood or something like that,
happened.  If you are not a believer no matter how much "proof" you are
offered is not going to convince you.  If you are a smart believer or disbeliever
you will realize that that is not the point.

I haven't challenged the fact that there was a major flood event, I challenge the stories that two of every animal in the known world was loaded onto a boat in order to save them.

You may call seeking the truth rediculous, but isn't that what scientists do every day?


Science is searching with it's tunnel vision. For an ancient population, the known world could have been an island.  
Assume we can't be sure of the point about two of every kind of animal.
Could this not simply mean, two birds, two cows, two goats ?
You know animals that people can normally get their hands on, domesticated stock animals. Hmmm?Wink
If you don't let that part enter into it, is it really unbelievable?

Yes, you're quite right. But you know me, a cynic from way back.Wink
Not cynical about everything. I salute your typically suspicious take on doubtful things. You don't allow yourself to accept things what don't ring true. The best compass is that BS indicator unless or until your view_ or_ question changes. 

What do you make of the idea that man's bad behavior, usually greed is built in to these ancient stories? 

Jordan Petersen points out a parallel in a modern flood story, New Orleans. In 2005 the hurricane Katrina caused the damage but it came to light that monies allotted for maintaining the flood wall had been pocketed for decades. Common political corruption, a crime of humans and a devastating correction from nature. 
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2019 at 11:44
Quote What do you make of the idea that man's bad behavior, usually greed is built in to these ancient stories?

You're probably right. Remember the ancient parrabels-they were lessons on how to live and conduct oneself.

I don't argue that the story of Atlantis has been mentioned by other scholars, I'd just like to see some evidence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2019 at 02:51
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Haven't finished it, but looks interesting:  "Noah's Flood and the Development of Geology" by David Montgomery on youtube.
Montgomery provides a fairly expansive history of geology and the church, as it pertains to the flood and the story of Noah. At time annotation 10:05 you see his chart comparing world flood stories, most have details of the Bible idea that people and animals are saved. Not every culture has a retribution aspect to their destruction by water oral histories.  Every culture on his chart does have a hero who saves himself and others. 
Montgomery seems fairly sure that the Noah story & Gilgamesh refer to when the Black Sea was a valley. Geological evidence presented here with a model shows how the valley flooded after the second ice age melt. 
Also outlines some anecdotal evidence for humans having oral histories about geological events going back at least 8,000 years.

Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 2019 at 11:15
Check out on youtube:  Irving Finkel, the ark before Noah.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2019 at 10:33
"Why an ancient tablet is key to our future learning"  Tiffany Jenkins, TEDxSquareMile 
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