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Las Vegas Shootings

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toyomotor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Las Vegas Shootings
    Posted: 02 Oct 2017 at 13:50
Another idiot with a military grade weapon, somewhere about 50 innocent people killed at a Music Festival, many more injured.

And for what?

It may take some time for the police to find that out.

The situation clearly is that American citizens take their lives into their own hands if they choose to leave the security of their own homes, but what a way to live?

My heart goes out to the families of those killed or injured. 

Just another occasion for national mourning in the USA.

Cry  Cry


Edited by toyomotor - 03 Oct 2017 at 00:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2017 at 05:40
Initial reports out of Vegas claimed that there was more than one shooter.

So far the police have accounted for one, who committed suicide.

Apparently people who were at the scene are still claiming that there was more than one shooter, possibly three. Is there any credence in this?

It could explain how so many were wounded or killed in such a short time.

Any updates?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2017 at 05:45
It was one shooter. He had several homes and in one of them police found a huge cache of weapons & ammo.
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2017 at 05:52
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

It was one shooter. He had several homes and in one of them police found a huge cache of weapons & ammo.

V

Thanks for that.

From-http://www.smh.com.au/world/las-vegas-shooting-might-be-evil-donald-trump-but-its-also-banal-20171003-gytbqp.html

Quote Since Sandy Hook there have been at least 1,518 mass shootings in America. At least 1,715 people killed and 6,089 have been wounded.

Peter, Paul and Mary sang
Quote Oh, when will they ever learn?

ANSWER: Never!!!

And don't forget the two people gunned down in Alabama on the same day. Cry



Edited by toyomotor - 03 Oct 2017 at 15:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2017 at 12:41
/2017/10/02/while-america-again-debates-gun-reform-australians-hand-in-26-000-guns_a_23230452/?utm_hp_ref=au-homepage


Quote

While America Again Debates Gun Reform, 

Australians Hand In 26,000 Guns

As the United States grappled with yet another senseless mass shooting, this time in Las Vegas, Australia was dealing with a gun problem of its own.

Namely, just exactly what to do with more than 26,000 firearms surrendered to authorities during a three-month national gun amnesty.

If only the US had acted many years ago.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2017 at 15:36
Quote Las Vegas shooting: Donald Trump calls Stephen Paddock 'sick individual', will discuss guns 'as time goes by'

"As Time Goes By" doesn't cut it sport.

But the horse has bolted though, hasn't it:-

1. Border Control-basically out of control;

2. Drug Importation & Sales-out of control;

3. Gun Control-non-existant;

4. Corruption-unchecked;

5. Unemployment, Homelessness & Poverty-unchecked;

6. Public Health System-very restrictive and Trump trying to dismantle what does exist.

I know, he inherited most of these problems, not his fault and, realistically, points 1-5 are beyond redemption.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 02:51
toyomotor, United States is 18th on the corruption index for 2016, Australia is 13th.  New Zealand is tied with Denmark for 1st.  Scandinavian countries are generally the best (lowest).  You might actually look at the details of the corruption index before going on about corruption unchecked.

As far as unemployment, homelessness, and poverty unchecked, liberals in our society believe that nothing is ever enough, and if you disagree with them, you are demonic.  So go ahead and believe what you want, but realize that some rather privileged elements in our society believe in sanctimoniously going on ad nauseum about what they perceive as the ills of our society, and some of those ills are actually problems.  But a lot of it is bad faith, certain things may be legitimate concerns for somebody, but it is also something that they can get a lot of mileage on, a lot of traction.

I would suggest that you not the confuse the issue, if you want to talk about Las Vegas and gun control, talk about it, but don't pull in everything else.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 03:17
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

toyomotor, United States is 18th on the corruption index for 2016, Australia is 13th.  New Zealand is tied with Denmark for 1st.  Scandinavian countries are generally the best (lowest).  You might actually look at the details of the corruption index before going on about corruption unchecked.

I would suggest that you not the confuse the issue, if you want to talk about Las Vegas and gun control, talk about it, but don't pull in everything else.

1. Will you provide me with the link to this Corruption Index please?

2. Gun Control, or lack thereof, is, IMO, just another symptom of the malaise extant in the US community.

The top two:-
1. Drug importation & distribution is out of control. That's not necessarily a criticism, as the vast and porous US borders are very difficult to police to the extent needed;

2. Firearms Control-effectively, doesn't exist. I read somewhere that in the US, it's estimated that there is a firearm for every man, woman and child in the country. Obviously I don't know whether that's true or not. The Second Amendment wording has been deliberately misinterpreted for many decades and the current situation is the result.

As I've written in the past, it's not Donald Trump's fault, the gun industry is so deeply a part of the American way of life that there's no way that what we consider to be effective controls could now be put in place.

Someone in the print media posed the question, "Is the USA too big to Govern?" I don't know the answer to that, but such a large country, with such a large and possibly awkward government, is sure to have problems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 21:36
https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_perceptions_index_2016

A lot of people have more than one firearm, which considering that different firearms have 
different purposes makes sense, if you are into that kind of thing.  Also, people inherit firearms,
and like to use historical firearms.  The right believes in original intent, and so from the right's side
it is the left looking at the constitution as something that evolves with the times that is being
more freehanded with the constitution.

In the cities, you have the nanny state to take care of you.  In the country, they have to fend for
themselves more than in urban areas.  Although in the country, they do worry about government
'taking care' of them.  Resources go to cities, tax money tends to go to cities, even though most 
of poverty is white and rural.  People in the country tend not to trust the city, which seems
decadent and immoral, and yes, corrupt.  Of course, you generally don't hear from people in 
rural America, the big newspapers cater to the urban areas.  Out of sight out of mind.  
But that doesn't mean they don't exist, and the electoral collage was designed for greater 
representation of small states, which is a little ironic because both candidates 
were from New York City.

If you want to see how firearms are usually used in self-defense, see Clint Eastwood's 
character in Gran Torino.  Usually the fact that the homeowner has a firearm is enough
to send intruders away.  Also, one especially frightening type of crime is largely 
absent from the US, home invasion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2017 at 00:54
Yes, I've probably fallen into the trap of going Off Topic here.

But it's not just about Las Vegas. How about Sandy Hook, Columbine, Orlando, and the list seems endless.

It's about the fact that everyday Americans are not  free to go about their daily business without fear of being gunned down.

One US journalist wrote,"Las Vegas is just another sacrifice to the Second Amendment." I think he/she was spot on!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dark Warrior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2017 at 13:52
People kill people...been that way for a very long time no mater the method or tools/ equipment...tech advances merely make it easier. But I'm not ready to surrender the 2nd amendment because some wack went wacko.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2017 at 18:45
Originally posted by Dark Warrior Dark Warrior wrote:

People kill people...been that way for a very long time no mater the method or tools/ equipment...tech advances merely make it easier. But I'm not ready to surrender the 2nd amendment because some wack went wacko.


Did you ever stop to consider that if your government had enacted stricter Gun Laws decades ago, these mass shootings may not have happened.

As for the Second Amendment, its abuse over many, many years has led to where your country is today.

Nothing to be proud of.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dark Warrior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2017 at 21:18
The laws already exsist viz Title 18 of the US Code. So that remains nothing more than a uselful liberal diatribe for the liberal. Once again the historical record is apt in discussions like this. The United Sates doesn't even lead the way in the most current data so that straw remains weak.

Venezuela does iirc.

A tradgedy? Sure. Unkown and uncommon nah...not even close.

Read up on Pol Pot.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2017 at 22:12
I don't live in fear of being shot, do you live in fear of being shot, Dark Warrior?  The only people I ever see carrying firearms around are police and security personnel, I don't particularly worry about people packing, legally or illegally.
The second amendment is there because the Founding Father's did not trust the state.  One might say that liberals trust the state, but that is not true, liberals trust that they have the numbers and the control of the big cities, and can generally get their way through "government largess."  They're on the gravy train, and wish to maintain that position, if they can cloak it in "fairness" or "social justice," they will.  The liberals are all impatient, the metropolitan newspapers promote their brave new world, so how is it that conservatives and rural people cannot understand to give in to (what the liberals perceive as) "the natural order of things"??  The question is, whether the brave new world is an improvement on things, or whether it is a bigger nightmare in sheep's clothing?

Death Wish with Bruce Willis is due to come out soon, this is a remake the '70s film.  Only in AmericaWink


Edited by franciscosan - 07 Oct 2017 at 22:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2017 at 00:14
Franciscosan provided the following link
Quote https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_perceptions_index_2016
in support of his claims on curruption.

I note that the article is about perceptions, not fact, and based on no science whatsoever.

That the USA doesn't appear in the list at all is a telling point.

I reject your accusation about Australia's corruption. And what's that got to do with the topic anyway?

To suggest that Australia is more corrupt than the USA is laughable.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2017 at 01:17
The lower the number the better, and yes, it is about perception because if a lobbyist buys a congressman dinner, that does not mean that the congressman will vote the way the lobbyist wants, because of the dinner.  But, it looks bad.  It is a matter about avoiding the appearance of impropriety.

But the lower the number the better, NZ and Denmark are #1, Australia is # 13, the US is #18, each on a hundred point scale.  I was not suggesting that Australia was more corrupt than the US, nor did my citation of the corruption perceptions index suggest that to anyone who would read what I said.

You toyomotor brought up how corrupt the US supposedly was, I was just citing the corruption perceptions index (ok, I got the name wrong) to show you where the US is rated in the appearance of corruption, and where Australia is rated in the appearance of corruption.  And of course, at 18th (or at 13th) there is a lot of room for things (in other countries) to be worse.  You, toyomotor, seem to buy into the sensational, 'the sky is falling,' version of America, I thought gaining a little perspective might illuminate things.  The place where I heard of the corruption perceptions index was on American 'National Public Radio,' a liberal bastion, but just because they are liberal doesn't mean they are wrong.  But you seem to be exhibiting one pattern of liberals, when someone actually cogently criticizes something they get wrong, they change the topic, and say, "And what that got to do with the topic anyway?"
I don't know, you toyomotor, were the one to bring up the topic of the shooting in the first place, and you were the one to bring corruption into the matter.  Apparently, you thought it was topical enough to bring up in the first place, but now that someone responds to that thought, you want to change the subject.

If it makes you feel any better, the US is perceived as a more corrupt place than Australia, but less than Italy, Russia, Mexico, India, anywhere in Africa, or probably the mid-East.  So your view of the general depravity of the US, and gun violence as a symptom of it, should be replaced with something more nuanced and less sensational, more light, less fire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2017 at 04:36
Franciscosan

So, if I write something detrimental to the USA, you feel the need to retaliate by writing something about Australia, regardless of the fact that it absolutely no relevance to the OP.

AND, corruption was only one item in a list.

Don't take it personally, I pointed out in the past that I believe that there is high scale corruption in the States, but obviously I don't mean everyone.

No country is totally free of corruption and as your reference is to perception, am I not permitted to have an opinion based on my perceptions?

 
Quote FreeDuck wrote:

I am quite certain that the argument you've already won in your head was entirely more satisfying to you than the one that is actually occurring.



Edited by toyomotor - 08 Oct 2017 at 05:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dark Warrior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2017 at 08:40
I like Aussies. Don't like others but that's for another day..corruption is as corruption does. otoh I will defend your right to express negative opinions of others as long as you do the same for me.

Many of these arguments remain circular from both political perspectives.

But as a final note to this thread...Ill state that the best way for me to express my defense of your opinions whether I view them as faulty or not. Is the second amendment.

If I did less this country and yours would have gone the way of Italy and the fascists of Mussolini long ago.

Edited by Dark Warrior - 08 Oct 2017 at 08:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dark Warrior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2017 at 19:29
I forgot to mention this earlier but I am personally an opponent of 'bump stocks'. Which by their technical nature and manufacturing 'do allow' for continuous fire mode in what is normally a semi. The details can be confusing but it essentially involves a single trigger pull ability inherent in a 'sliding' stock.

Tho in point of fact they were not legalized under DT but his immediate pred..Barak H. Obama. Which is to say a democratic and 'liberal' controlled BATF etc. I find that ironic.

And in conclusion there is, imo, absolutely no realistic need for a true sportsman to have such an advantage over any form of wildlife. This is a quasi mil app that isn't needed in the hands of 'Joseph Bloweseph'. For either hunting or competitive shooting.

The legal question becomes the 'definition' of said bs's...iow are they merely a 'part' in the manufacturing process to include legal modification. Such is the case now. Or are they a part that essentially creates a an automatic weapon which is in violation of current statues in Title 18. This in essence means the stock itself is a an automatic weapon; in and of itself.

And that remains a specious argument as the stock does not fire the ammunition.
The trigger and bolt mechanisms do down the barrell.

Ntl there is no need.


Edited by Dark Warrior - 08 Oct 2017 at 19:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2017 at 19:36
Australia has a lower rank and higher score than the US.
If you are going to talk about corruption (and the perception of it), it might be useful to know where countries are in relationship to each other, if you were Russian, I would bring up the Russian score, for a contrast.

Obviously you don't mean that the US has a high level of corruption vs. Russia, or Syria, or Korea (North or South), or African nations? or Venezuela or Mexico, or the Philippines, or Egypt?  Do you?  Perhaps you have been watching too many B movies, where the villain is a ruthless capitalist.

You can have whatever perceptions you want, but hopefully those perceptions will be reason based, evidence based.  That does not mean you have to agree with me.  But if you talk about how bad corruption is in the United States, I would expect you to mean that it is like Russia, or Afghanistan, Italy
or Turkey.  United States is worse than Australia, New Zealand, Denmark, Germany, Sweden, Norway, but when one talks about corruption, one is usually talking about Nigeria, not Norway.

The joke in the gun community is that gun control is hitting what you are aiming at.  No, nobody is laughing at that right now.  The NRA and congress are looking to make illegal bump stocks, which follow through in a loophole of the law as far as automatic weapons are concerned.  That is another problem with American society, the desire to legislate everything.  Just because something is legal, does not mean it is ethical.  But, people will substitute legality for ethics, "I was only following the law!" does not mean that someone was acting in an ethical manner.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dark Warrior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2017 at 19:47
Which is why I disaprove of bs's...I do not only find them not necessary given the fact that legislation at state levels already regulate high capacity mags in a true semi mode.

But as a sportsman I find it indeed unethical.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2017 at 23:43
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Australia has a lower rank and higher score than the US.
If you are going to talk about corruption (and the perception of it), it might be useful to know where countries are in relationship to each other, if you were Russian, I would bring up the Russian score, for a contrast.

Obviously you don't mean that the US has a high level of corruption vs. Russia, or Syria, or Korea (North or South), or African nations? or Venezuela or Mexico, or the Philippines, or Egypt?  Do you?  Perhaps you have been watching too many B movies, where the villain is a ruthless capitalist.

You can have whatever perceptions you want, but hopefully those perceptions will be reason based, evidence based.  That does not mean you have to agree with me.  But if you talk about how bad corruption is in the United States, I would expect you to mean that it is like Russia, or Afghanistan, Italy
or Turkey.  United States is worse than Australia, New Zealand, Denmark, Germany, Sweden, Norway, but when one talks about corruption, one is usually talking about Nigeria, not Norway.

The joke in the gun community is that gun control is hitting what you are aiming at.  No, nobody is laughing at that right now.  The NRA and congress are looking to make illegal bump stocks, which follow through in a loophole of the law as far as automatic weapons are concerned.  That is another problem with American society, the desire to legislate everything.  Just because something is legal, does not mean it is ethical.  But, people will substitute legality for ethics, "I was only following the law!" does not mean that someone was acting in an ethical manner.

 
franciscosan

1. No I don't mean that the US is more corrupt than than the countries you mention. And I meant corrupt in the moral sense, as much as in the criminal sense;

2.
Quote  I would expect you to mean that it is like Russia, or Afghanistan, Italy
or Turkey. 
No I didn't mean that-perhaps "corrupt" was the wrong word. Perhaps morally bankrupt, or lacking in ethics would have been better. It depends on your interpretation and perception.

But we've gone way off topic here, perhaps I should delete that whole post and forget that I even wrote it. 

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2017 at 16:01
It's not off-topic, you know it's a big topic.
I think you are disappointed in America. Maybe a little shocked bc the barometer for insanity is usually anchored by the sanity level of developed countries. Look at US or UK lately. 

Last thing Americans should do is give up their guns. If new gun laws banned weapons it would be a sweep. 
We would lose everything. Washington  D&R's making deals, would take one eye from each other rather than allow citizens to assert themselves. What if the congress starts getting killed? 
Steve Scalise was shot that has half of Washington rattled. The other half is blaming him for being a republican. Wait until it happens closer to the capitol. I don't say it's at that level now but a few more events like this and US will be ready to surrender Liberty for Safety. Unless of course we don't.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 2017 at 16:33
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

It's not off-topic, you know it's a big topic.
I think you are disappointed in America. Maybe a little shocked bc the barometer for insanity is usually anchored by the sanity level of developed countries. Look at US or UK lately. 

Last thing Americans should do is give up their guns. If new gun laws banned weapons it would be a sweep. 
We would lose everything. Washington  D&R's making deals, would take one eye from each other rather than allow citizens to assert themselves. What if the congress starts getting killed? 
Steve Scalise was shot that has half of Washington rattled. The other half is blaming him for being a republican. Wait until it happens closer to the capitol. I don't say it's at that level now but a few more events like this and US will be ready to surrender Liberty for Safety. Unless of course we don't.

Allow me, if you will to commit a cardinal sin.

I like Americans, I have distant cousins who are Americans, their ancestors having migrated to the US while their brothers migrated to Australia-without any real say in the matter-convicts.

I suppose, being very pro-USA, I am disappointed in some of the things that successive govenments had permitted to happen, and in the way some of your processes have evolved.

I will never agree with the lack of Gun Control, but I do admit that I think the Gun Control matter is out of control as is the Drug Importation and illegal immigration.

But, I don't condemn current office holders, the problems have evolved over many, many years.

Unfortunately America has grown up with the Wild West uppermost in it's collective mind, and the gradual erosion of the true interpretation of the 2nd Amend.

I also recognise that the NRA is one of the most influential lobby groups in the country, and a presidential candid running on a Gun Control ticket might just as well try to bump his arse on the moon.

I admit to being critical of the USA and a lot of it's internal policies, but it's out of a feeling of sorrow rather than condemnation.

I'd love to be in a position to be able to change some things in the US, but I'm not so it's just wishful thinking.

"Oh say can you see........"
I often wonder why I try.
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