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If there is a God...

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Northman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2014 at 07:55
Toyo - "Caring for HIS children" - isn't that gender specific?  Wink


but another great point in your post "that's all I need to know"...   
- just another way to keep anyone from asking questions...  Smile

~ North





Edited by Northman - 08 Sep 2014 at 07:58
   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2014 at 08:50
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Toyo - "Caring for HIS children" - isn't that gender specific?  Wink
 
but another great point in your post "that's all I need to know"...   
- just another way to keep anyone from asking questions...  Smile

~ North

 
1. Got me. Embarrassed
 
2. If that's the reason, it didn't work. Thumbs Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2014 at 13:37
The gender property of a divine being emerges from cultural and linguistic conventions, thus the interpretation of the god reflects the society that worships or acknowledges it/him/her.Clearly then 'God' is not a real person in any sense, but represents a human desire to place a higher level of social responsibility and authority upon the universe. Whether or not divine beings exist is not scientifically proven (probably not scientifically provable) because we resort to belief rather than evidence or rationale, and the christian habit of seeking out evidence of biblical stories is merely a manifestation of human endeavour than any sense of truthfulness (folly in many cases, chicanery in others, and often demonstrates a certain bias in considering historic or archaeological evidence)
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 2015 at 04:20
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

The gender property of a divine being emerges from cultural and linguistic conventions, thus the interpretation of the god reflects the society that worships or acknowledges it/him/her.Clearly then 'God' is not a real person in any sense, but represents a human desire to place a higher level of social responsibility and authority upon the universe. Whether or not divine beings exist is not scientifically proven (probably not scientifically provable) because we resort to belief rather than evidence or rationale, and the christian habit of seeking out evidence of biblical stories is merely a manifestation of human endeavour than any sense of truthfulness (folly in many cases, chicanery in others, and often demonstrates a certain bias in considering historic or archaeological evidence)
You might look at Ludwig Feuerbach, a predecessor of Marx, Feuerbach says that God is a projection of the will(?I think that is the right word).  But as far as gender is concerned, God is either a he or a she, mystics will refer to both genders sometimes, at different times, but not an "it".  It is not clear that "god is not a real person in any sense," and in fact anyone who is Christian will recognize that God is a person, through Jesus.  I don't know the dynamics of Judaism or Islam, but since Buber talked about the I-thou vs. the I-it, I suspect that for Judaism, and Islam that is true as well.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kevin Beach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2017 at 22:35
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Why would a true and loving God permit the daily suffering of so many millions of people around the world?
 
Why would a God allow those created in his own image to wage war on each other as we currently see it?
 
Why would a God create man with so many fallibilities?
 
What has mankind done to deserve this?
 
If there is a God...
We don't, and can't, know God's infinite mind. Therefore we can't explain His reasons.

Only God knows why He created everything as it is. My own attempts to answer your questions are:

God's intention is that we experience happiness in Eternity with Him, not in this life. In His love for us, He knows more than we do and lets us go through this life as a route to eternal life. Only He knows why.

We are created in God's image in the sense that, unlike any other species, our souls reflect Him. We are "an image" of God, not a duplication of Him.

God gave us free will and does not interfere with it. Making our own decisions is part of the process of choosing to be with Him or not. War is a consequence of the influence of Evil on Mankind's free will.

"Fallibilities" implies that there is perfection, which we do not reach. Only God is perfect. He does not intend us to become gods, like Him. All we need to do is please Him, despite our failings.

"What has Mankind done to deserve this" implies that we deserve something. As God's creatures, we are His to dispose of. We have no prior rights.


Edited by toyomotor - 06 Nov 2017 at 04:01
Whoever ignores history is condemned to repeat it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 01:37
Belief in God should lead to God centered life, not self-centered life.  The extreme of a self-centered life is the solipsism or egotism of certain self-centered politicians.  Why care about others or the environment or anything else if the plan after all is to use it all up?

Other theories suggest that there is a progress, a process (process theologians), that man is supposed to overcome obstacles, and it is better for him to overcome than just be handed, well, "perfection"  It is better for man to struggle and toil and earn his salvation than it just be given.  But things are not static, there is a dynamic system working toward perfection.  This of course, is not the mainstream of theology, but is process theology coming from, amongst others, the philosopher Alfred North Whitehead.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 10:13
In my view, the existance of a God is an explanation for the unimagined by people of over two millenia ago.

The Testaments, both Old and New contain descriptions of acts well proven by science over the years, to be impossible, then and now.

It is fairly normal to iconise our heroes, particularly in the past, by attributing to them fantastic accomplishments, all the more to their credit and reputation-and to the exclusion of "lesser mortals".

Much of what was written, and has been preserved, was written centuries after the alleged event, and, IMHO, has been so embellished that it has entered the realms of fantasy.

But, if belief in some supernatural being brings comfort and solace to people, so be it.

If I can't see it, hear it, smell it or touch it, does it exist?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kevin Beach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 21:34
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

In my view, the existance of a God is an explanation for the unimagined by people of over two millenia ago.

The Testaments, both Old and New contain descriptions of acts well proven by science over the years, to be impossible, then and now.

It is fairly normal to iconise our heroes, particularly in the past, by attributing to them fantastic accomplishments, all the more to their credit and reputation-and to the exclusion of "lesser mortals".

Much of what was written, and has been preserved, was written centuries after the alleged event, and, IMHO, has been so embellished that it has entered the realms of fantasy.

But, if belief in some supernatural being brings comfort and solace to people, so be it.

If I can't see it, hear it, smell it or touch it, does it exist?


Does love exist? Do happiness and unhappiness exist? Does joy exist? Can you see, hear, smell or touch any of those?
Whoever ignores history is condemned to repeat it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 23:15
Yes, I see examples every day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kevin Beach Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 23:18
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Yes, I see examples every day.

You can see, hear, smell or touch love, happiness and unhappiness, and joy? Really?
Whoever ignores history is condemned to repeat it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2017 at 23:35
Science is inductive, not deductive, it does not "prove" anything, all it can do is extrapolate from cases of similar phenomena, concluding that what has happened in the past will happen in the future.  That generalization is known as a hypothesis, a theory or a law, but there is nothing in that law itself, that guarantees that the behavior in the past will continue in the behavior in the future.  Nor does it even guarantee that it is the same behavior, just that it is behavior that looks similar and so we (rightfully or wrongfully) group it together.

All swans are white, this was held to be true until black swans were discovered in Australia.  Is it the swans that are wrong?  Or is it our rules that are wrong?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2017 at 04:12
OK, I know that if there is a God, I'm in deep doo doo.Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2017 at 00:21
I kind of doubt it, you break any of the 10 Commandments lately?  And even if you break them, there is still a potential for forgiveness.  If there is a God, it is His world, His salvation, and to whom He grants it, is up to Him, not some priest, minister or holy roller.  Some theologians believe in universal salvation, which means everybody gets in, although not necessarily the first time around.

I actually believe that it is spiritually dangerous to be confident that one has it made.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2017 at 00:24
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I kind of doubt it, you break any of the 10 Commandments lately?  And even if you break them, there is still a potential for forgiveness.  If there is a God, it is His world, His salvation, and to whom He grants it, is up to Him, not some priest, minister or holy roller.  Some theologians believe in universal salvation, which means everybody gets in, although not necessarily the first time around.

I actually believe that it is spiritually dangerous to be confident that one has it made.

Why do you refer to your God as "He", after all, God is black, isn't she?LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2017 at 00:44
Traditionally, in the Abrahamic tradition, God referred to through masculine nouns and pronouns, although there are exceptions to that in mysticism, such as Julian of Norwich, she refers to God as 'she' at least occasionally.

If God was black would you believe in her anymore (or less) than you do now?

But Jesus is not black, he is a semite.  Do you know what semite means?
Semi means half, and so Jesus was half black, half white.  Once upon a
time, I was told that by a police officer, who was big and black, and had a gun.
I smiled inside and didn't argue with him, he was so confident in his
statement, he didn't need some college student correcting him. (btw, it
was a friendly conversation in a convenience store, where i was hanging
out with the clerk). But if you want to picture God as a she or black or
an aborigine, if that helps you then great.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2017 at 12:10
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The foundations of Christendom will crumble if faith is not renewed by doctrines more applicable to the 21st Century, as those of the past have been largely discarded.
I've heard such sentiments before, but that belies the persistence of Christianity since it sprung into being in the wake of Jesus's criminal execution. Tradition is a strong motivation in human society, whether primitive tribes or vast provincial empires, the need to ensure continuity and security make these societies persistent. Communism enshrined the idea of perpetual revolution which clearly didn't sit well with the dictators who grabbed the reins, but in replacing God and traditions, one needs a cause, and so progressive change was mooted as beneficial to society such that opportunities were taken and the rewards distributed. Ahem.
 
There's always those who will speculate on the fall of mighty empires (like those predicting the crash of Britain in March 2019, or the end of Augustan peace when he died of old age in ad14, or the dissolution of the Great Satan in some peoples opinions). Large scale societies have an analogous existence to biological entities - this sort of social Darwinism was written about by Polybius in 150ad - but cultural identity persists whether the society does or not. Religious belief that is conformal to traditional values will always prove to be persistent - the Christian church is one example of this - whereas fashionable sects/cults come and go. To some extent, such social constructs adapt and change, however slowly or reluctantly. On the other hand, the concepts, identity, and traditions rather mean that society is forced to encompass the old ideals rather more than it might liked. Stalin after all allowed the opening of Churches during the defence of Moscow. Communist or not, Soviet Russia had a population who wanted to conform to traditional values however patriotic and politically correct.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 2017 at 21:00
Innovation can create a temporary fad, but in the long run, only one tradition can displace another tradition,  no??  Protestantism claims to be more originary, more to the heart of the message than Catholicism.  In the Protestant (and definitely the forgotten Orthodox) viewpoint, it is the Catholics that are the innovators.  Kind of a Marty McFly get back to the future vibe.<grin>
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