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If there is a God...

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    Posted: 22 Jul 2014 at 04:30
Why would a true and loving God permit the daily suffering of so many millions of people around the world?
 
Why would a God allow those created in his own immage to wage war on each other as we currently see it?
 
Why would a God create man with so many fallibilities?
 
What has mankind done to deserve this?
 
If there is a God...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2014 at 04:46
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Why would a true and loving God permit the daily suffering of so many millions of people around the world?
 
Why would a God allow those created in his own immage to wage war on each other as we currently see it?
 
Why would a God create man with so many fallibilities?
 
What has mankind done to deserve this?
 
If there is a God...

I think you have answered your own question.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2014 at 07:19
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Why would a true and loving God permit the daily suffering of so many millions of people around the world?
 
Why would a God allow those created in his own immage to wage war on each other as we currently see it?
 
Why would a God create man with so many fallibilities?
 
What has mankind done to deserve this?
 
If there is a God...

I think you have answered your own question.
 
Yes, I know, but I thought that I's canvas the views of others.
 
Is it any wonder that more and more nominal Christians are deserting their faith?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2014 at 11:11
People who are raised to believe - disregarding religion - are raised to believe that God can do nothing wrong.
If something "wrong" happens it's the devils work - or God works in mysterious ways - or God wanted to bring home those small children who died of starvation or cancer.

If incidentally something good happens - it was God who performed a miracle....

Like the Captain said - you answered your own question, but do that rationale also hold truth when we face death? - or are the Religious/Christian element in our society so utterly soaked into our souls, that we - despite all reason and rationale - would say a prayer on the last day?

  
   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2014 at 15:47
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

People who are raised to believe - disregarding religion - are raised to believe that God can do nothing wrong.
If something "wrong" happens it's the devils work - or God works in mysterious ways - or God wanted to bring home those small children who died of starvation or cancer.

If incidentally something good happens - it was God who performed a miracle....

Like the Captain said - you answered your own question, but does that rationale also hold true when we face death? - or is the Religious/Christian element in our society so utterly soaked into our souls, that we - despite all reason and rationale - would say a prayer on the last day?
  
 
As I said, I know that I answered my own question, but it was put out there for other members to comment upon if they so wished.
 
And I agree with your opening comments.
 
As for the last paragraph:
Quote but do that rationale also hold truth when we face death? - or are the Religious/Christian element in our society so utterly soaked into our souls, that we - despite all reason and rationale - would say a prayer on the last day?
 
Yes, I find that strange at times. People who at the very least have ignored religion all of their lives, when confronted with their own mortality, suddenly become very devout-hoping I suppose for a reprieve or at least favourable assessment by the Almighty when they eventually die.
 
Show me a soul, and I'll believe that I could have one.
 
Me? I have some serious illnesses which will result in my death, probably a lot earlier than I would have wished for, but, c'est la vie or more accurately c'est la morte.
 
I hold no illusions about going to heaven or to hell, I'll be worm bait just like everyone else.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2014 at 18:04
Sorry to hear about your illness toyomotor. Hope you prevail. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2014 at 20:05
Why on the other hand would a truly good, holy, and just God allow mankind to continue to exist? Why not allow them to wipe each other out?

We have his word on what he thinks are the rules a person should live, and ten out of ten people have broken those rules. Here is a quick test to take to prove what I am saying.

1. Have you ever told anyone a lie?

2. Have you ever stolen?

3. Have you ever taken God's name in vain (blasphemy)?

4. Committed sexual sin (mentally or physically)?

5. Have you ever been hated another person?

6. Have you ever coveted?

As you can see, if you are a honest person, you will know you broke all of these. I mean who hasn't? Therefore a God who only can stand absolute perfection, will destroy anything that is not perfect. The only reason he has not already is because of his mercy.

So toyomotor, in answer to your questions, Why does God allow bad things to happen, because of sin. Why do people kill each other in and out of war? because of man's fallen nature(therefore sin). Why does man have so many fallibilities? I am not sure what the point is to this question, but I will get back to you on that . What has mankind done to deserve this? Watch the news! You see all the time, defiance of God at all levels. If you were a god, would you simply allow little things you created to continually mock you with impunity? The answer is no.

A another set of questions might go something like this.

Why are there so many good things in the world, if the world came from random chance?

How come there is intricate design in anything, if the world came from chance?

How has live even come into existence, if there was only random chance?

And why on earth does any one care about what you or I do, if there is only random chance?

If there was only radom chance....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2014 at 02:27
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Sorry to hear about your illness toyomotor. Hope you prevail. 
 
I hope not to check out in the very near future, but thanks for your comment Captain.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2014 at 02:29
Originally posted by Voltage Voltage wrote:

Why on the other hand would a truly good, holy, and just God allow mankind to continue to exist? Why not allow them to wipe each other out?

We have his word on what he thinks are the rules a person should live, and ten out of ten people have broken those rules. Here is a quick test to take to prove what I am saying.

1. Have you ever told anyone a lie?

2. Have you ever stolen?

3. Have you ever taken God's name in vain (blasphemy)?

4. Committed sexual sin (mentally or physically)?

5. Have you ever been hated another person?

6. Have you ever coveted?

As you can see, if you are a honest person, you will know you broke all of these. I mean who hasn't? Therefore a God who only can stand absolute perfection, will destroy anything that is not perfect. The only reason he has not already is because of his mercy.

So toyomotor, in answer to your questions, Why does God allow bad things to happen, because of sin. Why do people kill each other in and out of war? because of man's fallen nature(therefore sin). Why does man have so many fallibilities? I am not sure what the point is to this question, but I will get back to you on that . What has mankind done to deserve this? Watch the news! You see all the time, defiance of God at all levels. If you were a god, would you simply allow little things you created to continually mock you with impunity? The answer is no.

A another set of questions might go something like this.

Why are there so many good things in the world, if the world came from random chance?

How come there is intricate design in anything, if the world came from chance?

How has live even come into existence, if there was only random chance?

And why on earth does any one care about what you or I do, if there is only random chance?

If there was only radom chance....
 
Gulp!!
 
No comment.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2014 at 11:13
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Why would a true and loving God permit the daily suffering of so many millions of people around the world?

Who knows? Love and hate are emotions expressed by mankind and based on similar social behaviours and instincts in nature. A supernatural being would not necessarily display them, and the idea that it would is merely anthropomorphism.
 
Quote Why would a God allow those created in his own immage to wage war on each other as we currently see it?

War is an extention of our natural instincts and social behaviours. For a God to create a species in his own image is rather odd when you think of it. It's rather more to do with Man creating God in his own image.
 
Quote Why would a God create man with so many fallibilities?

Ask God. Maybe he finds it funny. Maybe he doesn't want the competition. Maybe he just likes to experiemnt. Or perhaps his creative skills are not limitless.
 
Quote What has mankind done to deserve this?

Deserve what? God? We invented him, and all the other serried ranks of supernatural beings around the world, mostly to explain the mysteries of life and the world around us. However, it is an unfortunate observation that successful species are those that can compete within the enviroment, so I guess we're just reaping the rewards of our own success.
 
Quote If there is a God...

Then pray. On your knees, Sinner! Confess your sins and plead for divine mercy! - which alternatively can be bought for a donation to the temple. Might as well earn a living from our new divine master.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2014 at 21:38
I find it odd that people would put the terms of "imperfection" and "flaws" when concerning god's creations.  Since if by definition you are not god you cannot possibly know what the position of perfection is.


Edited by literaryClarity - 01 Aug 2014 at 21:40
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2014 at 02:56
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

I find it odd that people would put the terms of "imperfection" and "flaws" when concerning god's creations.  Since if by definition you are not god you cannot possibly know what the position of perfection is.
 
I see where you're coming from, but do you suppose that God knows the definition of perfection?
 
IF he/she exists, and does know the definition, it would seem that God is imperfect, as man is created in his image.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2014 at 04:00
I think you are talking about the Christian one God in which case it is more of a role reversal.  They are defined by what man knows of himself by looking at his own image.  Someone may know the source of this "So above so below".  A bunch of people get trapped on a boat in the middle of water, become fearful, therefore god is one who walks on water and has surpassed the fear of drowning.  The god in the western sense is the ultimate superhero since he has man's weaknesses but is somehow stronger.
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2014 at 04:34
God in the western sense is basically like Spidrman. He probably attained the powers from a higher God.  And on and on it goes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2014 at 09:37
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

I think you are talking about the Christian one God in which case it is more of a role reversal.  They are defined by what man knows of himself by looking at his own image.  Someone may know the source of this "So above so below".  A bunch of people get trapped on a boat in the middle of water, become fearful, therefore god is one who walks on water and has surpassed the fear of drowning.  The god in the western sense is the ultimate superhero since he has man's weaknesses but is somehow stronger.
 
No, I'm talking about whatever God one prays to, believes in.
 
For example, the Abrahamic religions, insist that ere is but one God. Other religions disagree.
 
Islam, Christianity and Judaism are all Abrahamic in their roots, and believe in some of the same prophets or disciples, but only one God, the same God.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2014 at 11:04
But whose nature and temperament vary according to the emotional requirements of the sect and/or its leader.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2014 at 14:29
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

But whose nature and temperament vary according to the emotional requirements of the sect and/or its leader.
 
Yes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anubis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Aug 2014 at 22:34
I believe the word your looking for is monotheistic. They do differ in some respects though. In Christianity Jesus is considered a "saviour", In Islam he considered no more than a famous prophet, Judaism never accepted him as the Messiah. The foundations are the same really. Islam did not appear on the stage until 600 years after Chrisitianity and all Christiainity is, is an off shoot of Judaism. There is one more the Bah'i faith which is also Abrahamic in its beliefs and monotheistic as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stephen Hawkings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2014 at 00:24
I definitely believe in Higher Power(s). Of course, I can't say which Higher Power(s) are correct, or even if the accounts of the Higher Power(s) actions are correct.
   My feeling is that most likely, religion developed for human beings mental health. As far as I understand, religion and the use of prayer and meditation developed so that the human worshippers could enter a different level of counsciousness. This form of counscousness by nature is an altered state of counsciousness, and only the believer can say or not say whether the Higher Power(s) are real or not real.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2014 at 02:39
Originally posted by Anubis Anubis wrote:

I believe the word your looking for is monotheistic. They do differ in some respects though. In Christianity Jesus is considered a "saviour", In Islam he considered no more than a famous prophet, Judaism never accepted him as the Messiah. The foundations are the same really. Islam did not appear on the stage until 600 years after Chrisitianity and all Christiainity is, is an off shoot of Judaism. There is one more the Bah'i faith which is also Abrahamic in its beliefs and monotheistic as well.
 
If this post was directed at me, my answer is "NO", I meant Abrahamic.
 
There are probably hundreds of religious faiths around the world that are monotheistic, while at the same time being, for example animalist, tokenist or even shamanist. They are not the same as Abrahamic.
 
I'm aware of the different interpretations by Islam etc., but I question the existance of a Supreme Being, by whatever name.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2014 at 15:00
Originally posted by Anubis Anubis wrote:

I believe the word your looking for is monotheistic. They do differ in some respects though. In Christianity Jesus is considered a "saviour", In Islam he considered no more than a famous prophet, Judaism never accepted him as the Messiah. The foundations are the same really. Islam did not appear on the stage until 600 years after Chrisitianity and all Christiainity is, is an off shoot of Judaism. There is one more the Bah'i faith which is also Abrahamic in its beliefs and monotheistic as well.

Dictionary: Savior or Saviour may refer to: a person who helps people achieve salvation, or saves them from something.

Jesus is a saviour (just not the sole saviour) in Islam as all the prophets are. That's what a prophet does. He is also the Messiah in Islam, who expected to fight Antichrist in the end times.

"And in their footsteps We sent Isa the son of Maryam, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah."

      —Quran 5:46


Originally posted by Wikipedia Wikipedia wrote:

Muslims believe that Jesus will return to earth near the Day of Judgment to restore justice and to defeat al-Masih ad-Dajjal("the false messiah", also known as the Antichrist).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2014 at 16:23
The belief in a higher power, if even anonymous and mysterious, is pretty well instinctive to human beings and is an extension of our natural programming to accept leadership from dominant beings. Our propensity to control others is well observed in history, and in fact, psychological studies show how easily individuals dominate others. There is also, so I'm told, a part of the brain associated with religious thought. It might easily be argued that a divine being (or infernal, if you prefer) is a clear case of anthropomorphism, a human face on the infinite, and that no matter how many times a god disguises himself in one form or another, it is tacitly understood that he is not alien in form (Christianity even enshrines that idea completely)

None of this, not even our own personal convictions, make higher powers an existing reality. Faith is therefore the underpinning of these ideas, that we believe there is something powerful to turn to, something we can trust, or appeal to, or perhaps even live in dread of. I've heard many times that our future as a species will involve esoteric abandonments of religion in favour of cooperatiive and enlightened societies, but this does rather contradict human nature, and as far as I'm concerned, people will still prefer to believe in whatever God appeals to their sensibilities or the one circumstances demand.

There will always be a god - because too many of us will always want one. Politicians sometimes like to play god when they become powerful, tapping into those very same instincts I discussed here for their own purposes, but ultimately, are always betrayed by their mortality and human frailties. Not so the divine being. He, she, or it is always as invulnerable, enduring, and powerful as we imagine them to be.


Edited by caldrail - 14 Aug 2014 at 16:25
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2014 at 03:10
I wonder how many of us would have belief in a supreme being if it were not for our families, and society in general promoting the concept.
 
Hypothetically:
  • If a child was born, and not subjected in any way to the concept of religion, would that child go seeking a supreme being?
  • Given the above, would the child question its own being and how the world around it was created?
  • The laws of the land, which we all know in the western world are based on the Biblical teachings, would still be the framework for society, would their origins also fall under question.

I suggest that without parental or community publicity and teaching, a person who has no concept of a God would still exist in exactly the same way as we all do now.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2014 at 10:26
Religion would be scaled according to the social interaction of the society in question. A village that was isolated would eventually evovle local beliefs, whether based on an original pattern or no. A nation that communicates among themselves tends toward a social expectation for set religious practises and beliefs, but at the same time, including the increasing probablility of local variance. When these variances become too different, threatening, or otherwise unacceptable, then civil strife or warfare can result.
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And the problem is, they didn't all listen carefully.Evil Smile

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2014 at 10:32
As recent events have shown, people listen all too readily. It's who does the talking that matters as much as what they say (or as current news tragically informs us, what they do. Look at all that fuss a few years ago when that idiot in America predicted the Rapture... People wound up their affairs and sold their property expecting to vanish in a flash of divine providence. Just like they did in 1844 with the Great Disappointment. Or any other such occurrence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2014 at 00:34
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

As recent events have shown, people listen all too readily. It's who does the talking that matters as much as what they say (or as current news tragically informs us, what they do. Look at all that fuss a few years ago when that idiot in America predicted the Rapture... People wound up their affairs and sold their property expecting to vanish in a flash of divine providence. Just like they did in 1844 with the Great Disappointment. Or any other such occurrence.


I would say the problem is even more complicated than that. I would say that the problem is that people do not listen, and that for one of two reasons. Generally, either (a) they do not possess the ability to think through things in a religious framework, for a variety of reasons, which leads to the sort of amateurish, though well-intentioned, apocalyptic scenarios you mentioned; or (b) they have been led to intrinsically reject the value of examining things within a religious framework, and consequently don't bother looking through the existing scholarship on theodicean questions before accepting rather trite anti-religious criticisms, and childishly embracing the rather trendy atheism of the Academy.

It is always much easier to make light of than to engage any issue, and that has been especially true of religious studies in the Academy recently. However, I would note that the ignorance and ideological bigotry of modern day academics on topics of historical -- and, I and my brothers in faith would argue, contemporary and pastoral -- import does nothing to obliterate the long tradition of theodicy, engaged by many of the brightest minds in Christendom down through the ages. I would encourage you all to research it -- the answers range from the simplistic and pastorally unhelpful "It was God's will," to ontological, temporal, and epistemological investigations of the most sublime sort.

I regret that I don't have the time to research it for you all (and, truth be told, Northman asked me to do a post on this several years ago, and I never got around to it). My time on the site is limited due to events in my actual life. That said, if I ever do make an original post on this forum again, I will try to address this topic, though I might not have the time to actually participate in the discussion.

I apologize for the rambling here, but I just had to say something after reading a couple (and only a couple) of the offhand comments in this thread. I simply can't stand to see the same banal, pseudointellectual triticisms trotted out against the herculean efforts of some of the greatest scholars of the past several thousand years.

-Akolouthos

Addendum: Toymotor, thank you for raising the issue in a way that could have led to meaningful discussion (and, in fact, did for a bit). I hope for your recovery, as you are the precise sort of individual that the world -- and this forum -- would miss. I know I haven't posted a lot lately, but I have read, and your questions are always designed to inspire reasoned and thoughtful discussion, which is precisely what we need here. Good strength, mate.


Edited by Akolouthos - 28 Aug 2014 at 00:35
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caldrail View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 12:34
At the risk of making the same banal, pseudointellectual triticisms trotted out against the herculean efforts of some of the greatest scholars of the past several thousand year, I would have to point out that the greatest minds in Christendom are not necessarily the ones popularly espoused as such. It's like music. Sure, there are a few extraordinarily talented individuals selling records among the general mass of common or garden performers. There are also a great many more talented people who remain undiscovered or unwilling to progress to fame and fortune.

The analogy works further as well, because people generally listen for reasons other than intellectual credibility or rationale. Some of sanest, most intelligent advice, often goes ignored, mostly because what is being said isn't popular sentiment/rationale, understood, or is being spouted by those of lesser charisma or ability to command attention from the media.

But then, Christendom isn't widely known for intelligent conversation anyway :D


Edited by caldrail - 31 Aug 2014 at 12:34
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 15:21
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

At the risk of making the same banal, pseudointellectual triticisms trotted out against the herculean efforts of some of the greatest scholars of the past several thousand year, I would have to point out that the greatest minds in Christendom are not necessarily the ones popularly espoused as such. It's like music. Sure, there are a few extraordinarily talented individuals selling records among the general mass of common or garden performers. There are also a great many more talented people who remain undiscovered or unwilling to progress to fame and fortune.

The analogy works further as well, because people generally listen for reasons other than intellectual credibility or rationale. Some of sanest, most intelligent advice, often goes ignored, mostly because what is being said isn't popular sentiment/rationale, understood, or is being spouted by those of lesser charisma or ability to command attention from the media.

But then, Christendom isn't widely known for intelligent conversation anyway :D
 
But for those who claim membership of Christendom, there is great need NOW to make intelligent factually based statements, and also admissions of error made in past Papal Bulls and other doctrinal documents.
 
The faith is more severely tested today that probably ever before, and has not been assissted by the continuing revelations of the sexual abuse of children by priests of the various denominations.
 
The foundations of Christendom will crumble if faith is not renewed by doctrines more applicable to the 21st Century, as those of the past have been largely discarded.
Tiocfaidh ár lá
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2014 at 15:33
In this point, I agree with Dawkins


A point of view from the antipodes
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