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How to work w the police

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    Posted: 12 Jun 2020 at 11:01
Some of this is psychology, some of it is like karate.  In karate class, the members practiced would would you do if someone X Y or Zed you.  They were called situationals, and what would you do if given a certain situation?  With police, it is more a matter of how to get off on the right foot with them, maximize the good in a situation, minimize the bad.

I think those who hate the police, should ask themselves, why they hate someone they don't know.  If it is all the police's fault and none of the citizen's fault, then how can you change things so they might not go badly?  If it is part of the citizen's fault, well that means that you can do better, and learn from your own mistakes.  You have power, if you take part of the responsibility.  Why assume hostility?  If you assume hostility you will not be surprised by their reaction.  Do something different, or do the same thing over and over, expecting a different result??  Does not work that way.  Police Officers love it when something happens on the job that is not expected, but not dangerous.  Treat them as a human being, and if they think that you are not just doing to get on their good side, maybe they will treat you like a human being back.  [And don't just say we should always treat people as human beings, because we don't, police have to sometimes deal with the worst part of human society, they are trained for that, but it doesn't make it any better when someone is copping an attitude.

What can you do to make his day better?  What can you give him to make the occasion memorable in a good way?  Not a bribe but an experience.....

Now understand, I don't like dealing with the police, although if there is a serious problem, I will call them in and do my best to cooperate with them.  I am not expecting people who have an animosity to suddenly grow out of it, and start braiding flowers in law enforcement's hair.  But I do believe in maximizing the good and minimizing the bad.  We should understand that bad events often happen in threes.  At any stage if this chain had been broken, it wouldn't have resulted in such an extreme result.  It is not the guy who spills at the gas station, it is not the next guy smoking at the pump, it is not the guy that didn't turn off the car, combine them all, however, and one has the possibility of a big boom!  Situations with the police can _potentially_ be just as flammable.  But, most people understand that potential and will try to be calm and relaxed, but cautious, no sudden moves, hands where you can see them, polite.  You don't know how he is feeling, maybe he just had a donut with sprinkles and cup of coffee, maybe he just had a fight with his wife or captain.  It is your responsibility as a mensch to help things for him (because you are dealing with him directly right now), to make his life a little better, and if you can't do that, hopefully not worse.  Now he also has the same responsibility to do the same for you, if he can do so, while he is doing the job.  That does not mean that he should make you happy. Policemen do not get thanked but they are one of the few professions, where they can make a lifesaving difference, that also means they more rarely have to make a life taking difference.  The two are not always opposed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2020 at 19:00
Is there systemic racism in the police?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2020 at 01:00
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Is there systemic racism in the police?



In some jurisdictions, yes, obviously.

The mistreatment and killing of African Americans is mostly concentrated in the big cities.

Look what's happening in the smaller rural police forces. The police come from and are part of the community. They usually have a softer more humane approach than the city police and are respected, regardless of whether they're black or white. Many of them engage in community activity such as coaching young people in sports, and generally act more in the communities' best interests.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote vonSuess Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2020 at 05:19
Common criminals aren't exactly intellectuals and we employ police to deal with them so the rest of us don't have to. I don't know that we should expect the people willing to do that to be intellectuals, either. We place them in life or death situations requiring split-second decisions. They are going to get some of these wrong. As for my own situation, I find that since I neither break the law nor bother the police, for some reason they don't bother me, either... 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2020 at 08:04
I don't invest much belief in race, likewise I don't invest much belief in racism.  That does not mean it is not very important for some people on every side of the color spectrum.  Was George Wallace more or less racist than Malcolm X?  I seem to remember that George Wallace changed his ways late in life, Malcolm X was starting to change, but was assassinated by black assailants.  After going to Mecca, Malcolm X started acknowledging that maybe whites could be okay, if they converted/reverted to Islam.

There is a belief that Nietzsche talks about, people believe that they are good if they are weak and cannot hurt anyone.  But, the fact is blacks as a socio-economic class in America are quite powerful, it is not a matter of anything they do is okay (because they think they are weak and harmless).  They think that they are the little guy going up against the giant.  The think that their cause is _necessarily_ just.  They don't see that blacks are also in the police force.  They don't see that people of various minority backgrounds work together (sometimes successfully) in the police force.  They point out the mote in their neighbor's eye, while oblivious to the flaw in their own.

Black inner-city neighborhoods have an atrocious reputation for crime and killings.  It is not the police or whites that are doing the vast majority of those.  Let's say that whites are responsible for everything they do, are blacks responsible for what they do or are they just senseless victims being tossed and turned by the winds of fortune or misfortune as it may be?  If they are just victims, then why shouldn't we consider everybody just victims of life.  Personally, I think we should be thankful for life, even the hurting parts (although sometimes damn! it hurts!)

There is a story of a wise-fool character in Sufism (Islamic mysticism), named Mulla Nasrudin.  First I will give one to show that not everything concerned Mulla Nasrudin is highbrow.

"I have a forty year-old wife, can I trade her in for two twenty year-olds?"  :)

Mulla Nasrudin was walking on a highway, and passing a graveyard, he saw a group of horsemen up ahead, coming his way.  His mind raced and he imagined they might be bandits, so he jumped off the road to hide in a freshly dug grave.
The men on the horse saw the Mulla race of the path and jump in a nearby grave, puzzled one of the men rode of to the grave and addressed the Mulla, saying, "excuse me friend, but what are you doing there?"
The Mulla, realizing his mistake, said, "things are more complicated than they seem!  I am here because of you, and you are here because of me!"

That seems to me, to get at part of our problems today.  These problems (plural) are really not the kind that can "get" solved.  Anyone who does not understand that, does not understand human nature.  Or to put it another way, some fairy tales start with "once upon a time," while some fairy tales start with, "when I get elected...."  Now, I am not saying that people cannot treat each other in a decent, caring way, I am merely saying that passing a law mandating such behavior may in the long run be antithetical to such behavior.  Laws should not be an excuse for not teaching people decency.

We have a game in (political) life where multiple balls are up in the air at the same time.  If we focus on one, does that mean we will fumble or forget the others?  Should we concentrate on a few and forget the rest?  For that matter, can we concentrate on all of them, or is it inevitable that at a time, one or another will "fall through the cracks."  What have you done for US-Albanian relations lately?


Edited by franciscosan - 13 Jun 2020 at 08:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2020 at 12:24
I don't know what "systemic" means, I mean, I look it up in the dictionary (Webster's) and that entry is not really applicable to the phrase "systemic racism."  When people say "systemic" I think that they mean something like pernicious.  Something that won't go away and they think it should.  Police in general are systemic, as in the sense of methodical, relying on procedure.

On CNN there was a former commissioner of the police department for Detroit, Isaiah McKinnon.  He was beaten up by Detroit policemen as a black kid, and decided that he wanted to get into the Detroit police department to make a difference.  He calls police departments systemically racist.  I assume he knows police departments, and what he means and he should be listened to as someone who is knowledgable.  But, saying he should be listened to, and that he is knowledgable is different than saying he is "right."  Saying he is right, gives an easy answer to things that are not easy nor should they be.  We should seek to prove him wrong, not by disregarding him, but by showing (or making) the world is not what he (and others) think it is.

A police officer has the background to judge whether racism in the police department is "systemic."  An activist or a journalist may have the background.  A normal, everyday citizen (whose view is so important for media outlets) not so much, even if they are black.

If we just had a system like Russia, where we could just bribe the police to go away, we wouldn't have these problems (we would have others).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2020 at 06:28
Systemic to my thinking would be Jim Crow. "whites only" crap. Now it's illegal to discriminate so the American system is not currently configured to discriminate based on race.

In many parts of the country discrimination on the basis of political party is fast becoming the measure of whether you deserve to live.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2020 at 16:43
The incidents seem to be in situations where the action should go down as A or B, it goes down as C or D.  But in any case "not by the book."  What do you do, when a kid grabs for your firearm? or taser?  What happens when they resist and have a heart attack?  As far as police procedure, these seem like outlier activites.  Blacks claim to be fearful for their life, but one wonders if an unreasonable fearfulness is kicking in the fight or flight response which in a self-fulfilling prophecy is getting them killed.  I don't know what the statics are for other groups.  Of course, you cannot just say "your fear is unreasonable."  You have to show how the fear channels many situations into an either/or situation, which limits their options to those the police are well prepared to respond to.  It seems best if it never gets to the level of it requiring to run or to fight.

I think of cops as being like dogs, I like dogs so understand that is not a bad thing to me.  But they can "smell" fear and if a rabbit runs the dogs will do their best to chase it into the ground.  The cops have their training, but it is basically, how to use the fight or flight impulse most efficiently.  A cops bark is often worse than his bite.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 2020 at 15:00
Dealing with police is a very vexatious problem for some people.

Basically, police respond well when approached with a little respect, as opposed to verbal abuse and violence. The problem, as I see it, in large cities around the western world, communities have become disenfranchised through never having close contact with police in other than confrontational situations. All they see of police is when they're arrested or when the police drive by in their cars.

On the police side, police seem to develop very "anti" attitudes to minorities whom they see as being major offenders in such things as drug dealing and a "them and us" attitude breeds contempt and lack of understanding of the communities' problems, apart from the direct crime  problem.

This all results in a circular situation with respect to causative  aspects of police versus community interaction. In order to resolve this situation, education of both the police and the public seems to be the answer, but, it won't happen overnight.

The current call for "defunding" police forces is pure knee jerk reaction. If police are defunded or disbanded, to quote an American movie, "Who're you gonna call?"



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2020 at 10:38
There was a black republican talking on the News Hour a day or two ago, who was interesting, I think he is in the US Senate (or maybe a state senate)?  last name Scott, first name Anthony(?)  He does not like being pulled over multiple times per year, but at the same time expects the police to be there if his house is broken into, or if he is in an accident on the freeway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2020 at 12:38
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

There was a black republican talking on the News Hour a day or two ago, who was interesting, I think he is in the US Senate (or maybe a state senate)?  last name Scott, first name Anthony(?)  He does not like being pulled over multiple times per year, but at the same time expects the police to be there if his house is broken into, or if he is in an accident on the freeway.

That's all very well, but African Americans claim that they are stopped more often than white drivers, and for trivial reasons. It's been seen often enough that these tactics by police result in some sort of dispute resulting in the black driver being arrested.

I'll say it again, all that's needed is common decency and courtesy to reduce the friction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2020 at 08:09
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

There was a black republican talking on the News Hour a day or two ago, who was interesting, I think he is in the US Senate (or maybe a state senate)?  last name Scott, first name Anthony(?)  He does not like being pulled over multiple times per year, but at the same time expects the police to be there if his house is broken into, or if he is in an accident on the freeway.

That's all very well, but African Americans claim that they are stopped more often than white drivers, and for trivial reasons. It's been seen often enough that these tactics by police result in some sort of dispute resulting in the black driver being arrested.

I'll say it again, all that's needed is common decency and courtesy to reduce the friction.
BLM also 'claims' that black children are being killed by police on their way home from school.

Do you believe that? Mothers may be worried about their kids getting home but it's probably bc they have to traverse areas riddled with drug dealers and gangs.

Tim Scott Senator from South Carolina, happens to be black. He does understand the experience. It made sense that he could produce a compelling bill to begin police reform. Right out of the gate, white democrat slime Dick Durbin shows his bias. He kind of proves it's political not racial bias.


Democratic Senator Dick Durbin apologized to Senator Tim Scott, the Senate’s only black Republican, after he dismissed Scott’s police reform bill as “a token, half-hearted approach.”

“The minute Sen. Durbin heard that he had offended Sen. Scott, he sought him out on the floor and apologized,” Durbin’s communications director, Emily Hampsten, said in a statement. “What Sen. Durbin took issue with in his floor speech was not Sen. Scott’s bill, but that the Senate Majority Leader would short circuit this critical debate and fail to make the changes needed to prevent the killing of Black Americans by police officers.”

“Addressing systemic racism and changing policing in America requires and deserves more than one Judiciary hearing, one floor vote, one conversation,” she added.

In a floor speech on Wednesday, Durbin, the Senate minority whip, criticized the GOP police reform bill, introduced by Scott in the wake of demands for action on police brutality and racism after the police custody death of George Floyd.

“Let’s not do something that is a token, half-hearted approach. Let’s focus instead on making a change that will make a difference in the future of America,” the Illinois senator said.

Scott, a South Carolina Republican, responded to Durbin’s remarks in a tweet later in the day.

“Y’all still wearing those kente cloths over there @SenatorDurbin?” Scott tweeted, referencing about two dozen Senate Democrats who earlier this month donned African kente cloths and knelt in the Capitol’s Emancipation Hall to express solidarity with black Americans. Durbin did not participate in that display.

Scott also said the comments from Durbin, who in the same floor speech called Scott a friend and said he respects him, “hurts my soul.”





Edited by Vanuatu - 20 Jun 2020 at 08:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2020 at 12:30
Quote Do you believe that? Mothers may be worried about their kids getting home but it's probably bc they have to traverse areas riddled with drug dealers and gangs.

Thumbs Up

Spot on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2020 at 12:52
Jocko Willink's comments on the Joe Rogan Experience are pretty good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2020 at 09:48
I have not done it myself, but I think that ministers of God should do a ride-a-long, especially if they have programs that work with the poor, (food banks, meal kitchens, etc), that way, if something happens, particularly at the church, they have a better chance of moderating the situation.  Or for individuals that run into the police (in a sideways manner), they might moderate it.

I know a retired minister, who also is a retired FBI psychologist, who used to be a chaplain for Denver Police Department.  He has some interesting stories to tell, but I don't know his chaplain background.
He was part of the response in NY to 9/11.  I assume he could use either 'hat' or both at the same time in counseling someone at the scene of a disaster.  He also was the response to San Bernadino.  
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