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toyomotor View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 Mar 2014 at 02:04
I've been watching the Historum forum for a little while, and I joined after leaving AE, before coming here.
 
My opinion is that some of the mods on Historum seem to be too filled with their own importance. They frequently close threads for no apparent good reason, and hand out suspensions for the most ridiculously trivial reasons.
 
I don't think I'm going to bother going there again.
 
Has anyone else had experience with the Historum forum?
 
Like to read your comments.
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2014 at 09:27
It is hard to run a forum. There are so many trolls outside, so many sh*t-stirrer and people who try to spread their political and pseudo-scientific agendas, so many nationalists.
So I wouldn't critizise the mods too much. But I had to agree, that I can't understand all suspensions there and I don't know, why some old and good posters were banned, some are banned very quickly and others can spread their agenda or are often banned for a short period, but are allowed to spread their waste again. I left, because I was insulted by some members, the most of a special nationality, on and on, in the end even by PMs and I had the impression, that the mods didn't care anymore.

What one has to say is, that historum is the most joined forum, with the greatest participation. AE and WH are unfortunately miles away from it. Maybe because of the trouble between WH and AE. I don't know. Of course times can change.
Etiam si omnes, ego non.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Kevinmeath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2014 at 22:48
I've never had any problems with the place.

Some suspensions seem harsh but to be fair most you can see it coming.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 00:31
Thanks folks. My final comment on Historum is to agree with what beorna said about the unfairness with which the rules are applied.
 
I've appealed my suspension, so now I'll just wait and see.
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 07:40
The reason for the large participation on Historum is not the fall out between AE and WH. They have always had a lot more visitors than us - also before the division.

We divided up in 2009 and those of you who can remember those days and even before, we have talked about this many times - How to increase membership.

I don't know about now, but then, Historum was considered a joke (I think it was es_bih deeming it so). 
From what I hear it still is a joke, banning people arbitrary - for right and wrong reasons and never any in depth discussions - mostly the usual slur from anyone with an agenda.

~ North


Edited by Northman - 24 Mar 2014 at 07:43
   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 08:51
Originally posted by Kevinmeath Kevinmeath wrote:

I've never had any problems with the place.

Some suspensions seem harsh but to be fair most you can see it coming.

The general problem with all fora is, that the rules are not clear enough and that the mods don't follow them consequently.
What is allowed, what not. What is an insult, what not.

If we look into the historum forum, we can see, that there are a lot of nationalistic threads. How much nationalism should be allowed? Nobody usually is absolutely objectiv. But how far is one allowed to interpretate history in a nationalistic, biased way? How do the mods react, if history is definitely falsified? How should mods react, if a special poster allways opens chauvinistic threads or threads in which countries the poster doesn't like are attacked? This is indeed not very easy.
Or if i just think about a mod, who once wrote, there should have been burned more germans (talking about bombing war, in which mostly civilians were killed!) How far are mods allowed to go?

The same problem are insults. How tough is a discussion allowed to be? If somebody is lying, can I call him liar? If I think somebody is lying, can I call him liar, too? In a discussion about allied war crimes I did participate and was attacked by a lady from England as somebody who supports or defends nazi crimes. I don't know how you see this. But I indeed never supported nor defended nazi crimes. The mods didn't react. Indeed, when I complained in another thread about that insult and adressed a post to her allthough she was not participating in those thread, a mod even threatened me. The mod who generally did not react, when I was insulted!

A czech member posted Holocaust pictures in a thread about the expulsion of germans and subscribed it with, "these are the crimes you defend". In this case the mods deleted the pictures, but the member was not suspended. An Australian member of polish descendence insulted me over three long years as liar, revanchist, revisionist, skin-head, nazi and wehrmacht apologizer, lover boy, before the mods banned him. I could give other examples, too. So that's why I ask, what is allowed. How much can I insult other members, how long can I insult other members?

Why was a sylla banned. Just because he was recalcitrant? Just because of a mods wounded vanity?

Or another, less important case, why is a member from Scotland allowed to have a double account?
Well, he doesn't use his old one anymore. maybe he forget the password? But shouldn't he use the old name, like hallomanuk did it as hallomanuk2?

Well, that are to be fair general problems, not only for historum. But they should be solved. I can't see this for historum. I have nothing against tough discussions. I would even accept if people call me liar. But what I would expect is, that the poster has than the duty to prove his claim. I would as well accept a claim as Nazi apologizer. But such poster should then prove his claim. How often did I ask, please show me were I support nazi crimes, defend it or palliate it. Did i ever get an answer? Of course not. I think, that is the point, when we need mods. But usually in such case they hole up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 10:14
beorna

You are raising questions that we have tried to solve for many years and I think we have rather successfully reached a good standard. 
We have no restrictions about subjects anymore - earlier we had 10 subjects that was not allowed - then we made the minefield where they could be discussed - and now the word is totally free.

However - of course we have restrictions - The Code of Conduct will tell you how and what.

But in short, the parole is simple:
We do not aim to moderate content - but behavior.

That means that anyone can think and express (freedom of expression) any thought he might have, as long as it doesn't insult other people. Insulting others includes blatant racism, derogatory remarks to religious, national or ethnic groups and members etc.   

Let me try to give you a couple of simple examplea.. - a member says:
1. "All Danes should stay in Denmark - because they are dirty smelling rats".
2. "Germans were responsible for Holocaust - they are all filthy Nazis"

All Danes should stay in Denmark - because they are dirty smelling rats.
Germans were responsible for Holocaust - they are all filthy Nazis
The green part of the sentences is just an opinion/statement which is fine - the second part is a generalization and an insult  - thus a violation.

Calling another member a liar is not acceptable behavior. But you can say it isn't the truth he is writing - that you disagree -  counter and disprove what he says, ask for sources.

Double accounts are not allowed - but no major crime if they aren't used for trolling purposes.
We have seen it more times without it causing problems.

About the Holocaust pictures.
I see no reason why the pictures shouldn't be allowed on a history forum - but the following insult towards you is of course not acceptable.

We do not suspend members easily because of heated debates. We have a system where we warn up to three times - and will usually not make the suspension permanently, but maybe a few months.

A moderator has the power to suspend - but in cases like this he normally will take it to the council and let them decide.

I hope this gives you a general idea of how we try to moderate WH - we don't get it right all the time, but we do our best.

~ Northman





   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 10:54
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

beorna

You are raising questions that we have tried to solve for many years and I think we have rather successfully reached a good standard. 
We have no restrictions about subjects anymore - earlier we had 10 subjects that was not allowed - then we made the minefield where they could be discussed - and now the word is totally free.

The problem are not the rules, most, if not all have rules. The problem is how the rules are effectuated. I am an old member here, but to be honest, I was absent for very long. So I hadn't had problems here with mods or on AE. So it wouldn't be fair if I judge the mods here. My experience is too small. So I take your word.
A mod is like a referee, there are good refs and bad refs and even good refs can have a bad day. If a ref whistles for every bagatelle, he destroys the game, if he doesn't care at all, the game will end in an nasty brawl. And it is better to stop problems in the beginnings, then to wait too long and then are forced to give one red card after the other.

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

However - of course we have restrictions - The Code of Conduct will tell you how and what.

But in short, the parole is simple:
We do not aim to moderate content - but behavior.

That means that anyone can think and express (freedom of expression) any thought he might have, as long as it doesn't insult other people. Insulting others includes blatant racism, derogatory remarks to religious, national or ethnic groups and members etc.   

Let me try to give you a couple of simple examplea.. - a member says:
1. "All Danes should stay in Denmark - because they are dirty smelling rats".
2. "Germans were responsible for Holocaust - they are all filthy Nazis"

All Danes should stay in Denmark - because they are dirty smelling rats.
Germans were responsible for Holocaust - they are all filthy Nazis
The green part of the sentences is just an opinion/statement which is fine - the second part is a generalization and an insult  - thus a violation.

Calling another member a liar is not acceptable behavior. But you can say it isn't the truth he is writing - that you disagree -  counter and disprove what he says, ask for sources.

That are good examples. I agree with it. But as I said, it is generally speaking not enough to have rules, they have to be applied correspondingly as well.


Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Double accounts are not allowed - but no major crime if they aren't used for trolling purposes.
We have seen it more times without it causing problems.

agree

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

About the Holocaust pictures.
I see no reason why the pictures shouldn't be allowed on a history forum - but the following insult towards you is of course not acceptable.

Of course are the pictures not the problem in general. We have to face the responsibility of our ancestors. The problem starts, if it is used as muzzling.

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

We do not suspend members easily because of heated debates. We have a system where we warn up to three times - and will usually not make the suspension permanently, but maybe a few months.

A moderator has the power to suspend - but in cases like this he normally will take it to the council and let them decide.

I hope this gives you a general idea of how we try to moderate WH - we don't get it right all the time, but we do our best.

~ Northman

warnings are a good system - if it works. On historum it did not work as it seems. maybe it depends on how mods warn.
Etiam si omnes, ego non.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2014 at 11:30
northman:
And that's precisely the reason that I like this forum.
 
If a member is suspended or banned you can your sweet bippy they deserved it.
 
My opinion is that mods on this forum could, sometimes, be a bit more strict, but that's just my opinion.
 
Keep up the good work.    Beer
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2014 at 21:54
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:


That are good examples. I agree with it. But as I said, it is generally speaking not enough to have rules, they have to be applied correspondingly as well.


Fairly i would say. Having them applied fairly to a corresponding discussion, regardless of a fair impression a mod may have for the offending poster.

Quote
Of course are the pictures not the problem in general. We have to face the responsibility of our ancestors. The problem starts, if it is used as muzzling.


I don't think so, unless the pictures are known to have been at any point, doctored. Otherwise, they are a recorded event from the past that is fair game for a discussion. If another posters tries to muzzle another by calling them a Nazi and ect... will be dealt with fairly according to the CoC.





Edited by Panther - 25 Mar 2014 at 21:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2014 at 03:52
Historums history of suspensions and banishments leaves one to wonder if the mods there shouldn't read all posts and edit/erase them prior to them being published on the web.
 
Having looked through the suspension list and the reasons given, I asked a few questions about why they were suspended/banned, and this obviously made me a target.
 
The mods at Historum are only consistent in their inconsistency.
 
I think maybe there's a competition to see who can ban the most members in any given period of time-it's a power trip.
 
They could learn a lot/or not, from the mods here.
 
Thumbs Up


Edited by toyomotor - 26 Mar 2014 at 03:53
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2015 at 13:54
I just got a permanent ban from Historum for making a joke about the spammers.   I understand that mods put in a lot of work but some people sure get cut a lot of slack compared to my offense. 

Edited by wolfhnd - 18 Feb 2015 at 13:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2015 at 00:27
Originally posted by wolfhnd wolfhnd wrote:

I just got a permanent ban from Historum for making a joke about the spammers.   I understand that mods put in a lot of work but some people sure get cut a lot of slack compared to my offense. 
 
I know what you mean.
 
Forget Historum, this is by far the best History forum on the web. The mods are fair and friendly, and you can joke with them.
 
 
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2015 at 03:12
I don't expect to hear back from them but I was curious if my offense would have got me banned here?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2015 at 07:36
What was the joke?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2015 at 18:04
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

What was the joke?
 
It might be better if he PM'd the joke to you, rather than risking eternal damnation.
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2015 at 06:06
No need. As long as he follows our CoC, then it's all good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2015 at 08:28
Well I did violate their CoC but I thought the punishment was a bit harsh.  What I did was make a comment about how the spammer better hope no one finds who they really were and meet them in person.  Note this was in one of the spam posts.

They had a really bad influx of spammers that day and I went back and read the CoC and it did say you were not to encourage spammers.  Who reads the spammers garbage anyway was my thought?  I picked a bad day I guess to mess with the Mods.

Now it is probably a violation of the CoC here to discuss another website and I agree with that approach but since they will not discuss my ban I wanted to know if a similar bad choice would be punished in the same way here.  I'm just feeling out the waters so to speak or exploring my own ignorance.  


Edited by wolfhnd - 22 Feb 2015 at 08:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2015 at 01:16
Originally posted by wolfhnd wolfhnd wrote:

Well I did violate their CoC but I thought the punishment was a bit harsh.  What I did was make a comment about how the spammer better hope no one finds who they really were and meet them in person.  Note this was in one of the spam posts.
 
They had a really bad influx of spammers that day and I went back and read the CoC and it did say you were not to encourage spammers.  Who reads the spammers garbage anyway was my thought?  I picked a bad day I guess to mess with the Mods.
 
Now it is probably a violation of the CoC here to discuss another website and I agree with that approach but since they will not discuss my ban I wanted to know if a similar bad choice would be punished in the same way here.  I'm just feeling out the waters so to speak or exploring my own ignorance.  
 
Put it all behind you.
 
This is the best moderated forum I've found to date.
 
 
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2015 at 00:06
I have been lucky on all 3 forums (AE, WH, Historum). There were a few times i have posted abit negative posts (eg my last posts here a week or two ago).
I understand/empathise about what some people above say about being unfairly/harshly banned. I have been unfairly banned from some other forums in the past  (Arthurnet, casebook (admin), Israel forum, stirpes, skadi/allthing).

AE said Historum wanted to buy AE and AE didn't want to and Historum banned AE mods.
The whole AE/WH, AE/Historum fall out is depressing/annoying. Why can't there just be a list of forums/sites that all the sites are on and all have posted on their links/community page.
[Historum seems to have some posters from stormfront?]
Don't forget there used to be simaqian studio history forum too, and one/some other/s history forum/s.



Edited by truthsetsfree - 24 Feb 2015 at 00:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2015 at 01:12
I want to make clear that I'm guilty as charged.  The internet fosters bad habits especially when it comes to manners. 

On the other hand we are here to find out what other people think not to agree with them and closing forums to people does not foster an open internet.  I have been fighting government regulation of the internet for years and think that it is an important issue. 


Edited by wolfhnd - 24 Feb 2015 at 01:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 2015 at 04:58
Originally posted by wolfhnd wolfhnd wrote:

Well I did violate their CoC but I thought the punishment was a bit harsh.  What I did was make a comment about how the spammer better hope no one finds who they really were and meet them in person.  Note this was in one of the spam posts.

They had a really bad influx of spammers that day and I went back and read the CoC and it did say you were not to encourage spammers.  Who reads the spammers garbage anyway was my thought?  I picked a bad day I guess to mess with the Mods.


Different forums handle spammers differently. Here on this forum, Generally speaking.... if i were to come across a spamming post, i usually just delete the offending post and ban the spammer's account. The worst that would happen to you in a similar scenario is 1.) If the spammer created the thread, than whatever you had posted in there between its creation and its coming to our attention would be deleted along with everything else pertaining only to the spammers thread(s). 2.) If a spammer posts to an existing thread, than it would just be the spammer whose post would be deleted and account suspended. The thread itself remains untouched. In this scenario if there is a reply to the spammer, i usually ignore it and focus on the spammer, unless it is a really raunchy, risque or threatening post. Then i would ask you to please refrain from doing the same thing in the future.

No forum really wants its members to reply to or encourage spammers. As for the other forums, it's their choice in how the handle it. Here, all  you would need to do (And best for all) is to report it to us and we'll take care of the rest.

Quote
Now it is probably a violation of the CoC here to discuss another website and I agree with that approach but since they will not discuss my ban I wanted to know if a similar bad choice would be punished in the same way here.  I'm just feeling out the waters so to speak or exploring my own ignorance.  


Is there a way that you can contact any of the staff members from the other forum to ask why you were banned?

 Most anything is open and up for discussion here, including this topic. The only thing "I"would ask when it comes to other forums is that it not be made personal by singling out any staff member(s) or any member from another history forum.
As to making a bad choice in a similar situation, no. A member of staff would likely approach you by pm, or openly, and politely ask you not to do it again. How it goes from there is up to the poster. Often it doesn't go beyond that though.

I hope this helps? If you have any further question then don't hesitate to ask or contact any member of WH staff.

Panther
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote truthsetsfree Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 2015 at 23:05

Sorry never mind. I just tried AE again and now there is no blocking so wasn't banned after all. An hour ago i couldn't get through it kept asking username & password and i thought i'd been banned because of the race/races post reply. Sorry, i tend to overreact due to bad/hell situation.



Edited by truthsetsfree - 04 Mar 2015 at 00:21
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Personally, AE is a forum I wouldn't bother about.
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PeaceB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2015 at 10:16
So far as of early 2015, Historum is losing its steam. Most of the main contributors are frequently inactive. The mods ban too many innocent members. It's getting harder and harder to find fresh contributors there. Historum's Current Event subforum attracts too many trolls (especially the anti-Russian ones). The mods are too intolerent towards members who don't support democracy in Historum's Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology Forum.

One of the mods abused another banned Historum member in atheistforums.org in 2012. So yeah. You get the picture, they make more enemies against Historum.

Overall, Historum is becoming very ugly. I don't think the mods are problematic, but it's the policy that made them like that. So, I pity those Historum mods instead. They need forgive-ness. It's their mistakes that made that forum quite annoying.

Eventually, after a new generation of Historum mods would become active, maybe Historum will have a second chance.

Edited by PeaceB - 27 May 2015 at 11:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2015 at 03:17
Personally, I doubt it. The Historum mods have shown favouritism and bias and then when it is pointed out to them, they ban the person.
 
Any comment in disagreement with a mod favourite is treated as a direct insult to the mod.
 
I don't think they have any indea how to run a web forum site.
I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PeaceB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2015 at 05:05
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Personally, I doubt it. The Historum mods have shown favouritism and bias and then when it is pointed out to them, they ban the person.
 
Any comment in disagreement with a mod favourite is treated as a direct insult to the mod.
 
I don't think they have any indea how to run a web forum site.


I heard that the mods there are paid to do the moderating. If that's the case, then I'm pretty sure that those Historum mods can be condemned for eternity due to their bad karmas of manipulating the members there.

Edited by PeaceB - 28 May 2015 at 05:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2015 at 06:38
There once was fox who found some grapes, however the grapes were too high and he couldn't reach them.  Finally, he decided that the grapes must be sour, and he didn't want them.<grin>

That is what people sound like, now maybe the moderators on Historum are biased or gnomes or paid big bucks, but that ultimately doesn't matter to me, because I am here, and they are there.  I think it is good to want to be, wherever you might be.  So many people say, "oh, if I could ever get to xyz, I could start living!  If only I had A or a girlfriend who looked like B.  However, I think it is important, in the words of Voltaire's Candide, to 'tend your own garden.'  I mean, I am not saying it is bad to talk about Historum, it is interesting contrast.  But make sure there is some analysis there, and be careful it's not just sour grapes.

I have a friend who is very much into posting on Historum, and I decided to look into posting on a history forum, but I couldn't quite remember the name right, or rather, I couldn't remember the name wrong, and so I googled 'historia.'  I got world historia, and came here.

I say I couldn't get the name wrong because historum is _not_ a word, at least not in Latin.  Historia is a word in Latin, feminine declension.  Whomever came up with historum probably was trying to make the word neuter (or neutral?).  To me it is fitting that historia is feminine, since one of the muses, Clio, is the goddess of history.  Like it is for goddesses, we don't so much control history, as it controls us.

But basically, I am happy here, although I can't seem to find the 'exo-planets' thread again. :P
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