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Francis of Assisi

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    Posted: 10 May 2017 at 21:51
Listened to a course on Francis of Assisi recently, and found it interesting.  In the 13th century, the Catholic Church was facing criticism from heretics who claimed that the wealth of the Catholic Church showed that it was not possible to truly be Christian and Catholic at the same time.  Francis, when he started his ministry, went to the Pope and got his blessing to found an order that believed in poverty and preaching the message, like the Apostles did.  Other orders believe in personal poverty, but collectively can be quite wealthy.  The Franciscans believed in both personal and collective poverty.

In a way, Francis offered a solution to the Church, and the Pope (Innocent III), for the condemnation of Catholicism by the heretics.  Of course, we should remember that the heretics, (Albigensians, Cathars), were not heretical in their own opinion.  I also wonder if the heretics just wanted space to give a differing opinion, or whether they were a real threat to the Catholic Church.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 15:24
No doubt the Papacy saw them as a threat, why else slaughter them all? Peter Abelard also offered an "out" to the church by pointing out the vanity of pretending to know God's will. Although Abelard may have been mistaken in own vanity he at least challenged the ethics of religious supremacy as being separate from morality.  

Francis was a supreme mystic but he didn't tell the Pope, for all his modesty he had a grasp of reality that Abelard lacked.


Edited by Vanuatu - 21 Jun 2017 at 15:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 23:24
He also probably had something else that Abelard lacked.  Not only were the Cathars heretical, but they refused to recognize (and repent) their heretical views.  In that they were a threat.   I wonder what the Orthodox Christian view on heresy was, "Orthodox" as in Greek, Syriac, Russian etc. Orthodox.

The are certain Church Fathers who are not saints because they are not Orthodox, but held heretical views before they were heretical.  They are still Church Fathers.  There is the medieval mystic Meister Eckhart who although he is not a saint, is not heretical either, because he died before the Inquisition sent to investigate his views arrived at the monastery.  There are other mystics who although their views are a little out there, were within the Church.  I think that Theresa of Avila was that way.

Francis would have been fringe, but he went to the Pope and got his endorsement for a back-to-basics campaign, which provided a positive alternative to the heretical movements that were claiming that Catholicism was not Christian.



Edited by franciscosan - 21 Jun 2017 at 23:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2017 at 03:16
Theresa of Avila was able to convince the Inquisition that hysterical nuns, who had these types of fits or speaking in tongues were not heretical. Very smart woman she convinced the Inquisition that the nuns were ill in the head "as if" it were the body. Of course many were killed for "confessions" of Luciferous congress.

Francis got support and protection from Pope Innocent lll, after all he fought in the crusades against heretics. 

I do believe the debate over whether Cathars were Christians or not goes on, they themselves referred to the "Good Men" or "Parfaits" for higher ranking devotees.  I don't believe they called themselves Christians but they were definitely all about Jesus. In some manuscripts Christ was depicted with female breasts and women were considered equals to men. 

As I understand the history, the troubadours were a remnant of the Good Men as the Christians who lived among the Cathars called them. Troubadours and bards were a legacy of the Cathars. And the Code for Living said to have come from Byzantium and before that the Pythagoreans was distorted over time and that became Courtly Love.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2017 at 04:35
I don't think Francis of Assisi fought in the Crusades, he _went_ on the Crusade, because he wanted to get martyred.  He preached to the Muslims, but the sultan liked him too much and sent him home with gifts.  Some people have all the bad luck! :(

The Great Courses CD on St. Francis of Assisi said that the Albigensian heretics did not recognize the Catholics as Christian because of, amongst other things, their wealth and power.  I don't know what exactly is the relationship between the Cathars and the Albigensians were.  I believe the Crusade to the South of France was called the Albigensian Crusade?  Is that correct?

btw, I say "Francis of Assisi" because I am Protestant, and at least _I_ don't recognize saints as such.  The CD, however, was St. Francis.... and so I say the full name there.  Likewise, I am an American, and so I don't particularly recognize "Sir Isaac Newton," or "Sir Stephen Hawking."  It is nice they got "stirred" but we ran out the British because of that stuff.


Edited by franciscosan - 23 Jun 2017 at 04:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2017 at 15:05
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I don't think Francis of Assisi fought in the Crusades, he _went_ on the Crusade, because he wanted to get martyred.  He preached to the Muslims, but the sultan liked him too much and sent him home with gifts.  Some people have all the bad luck! :(

The Great Courses CD on St. Francis of Assisi said that the Albigensian heretics did not recognize the Catholics as Christian because of, amongst other things, their wealth and power.  I don't know what exactly is the relationship between the Cathars and the Albigensians were.  I believe the Crusade to the South of France was called the Albigensian Crusade?  Is that correct?

btw, I say "Francis of Assisi" because I am Protestant, and at least _I_ don't recognize saints as such.  The CD, however, was St. Francis.... and so I say the full name there.  Likewise, I am an American, and so I don't particularly recognize "Sir Isaac Newton," or "Sir Stephen Hawking."  It is nice they got "stirred" but we ran out the British because of that stuff.
Right, Francis went to convert the Muslims or die a martyr. As a young man he was involved in some skirmishes that were common between Italian cities in 12 century. During the crusade of Honorius lll Francis didn't likely do any fighting.

Albegensian refers to the geography of Southern France it was the term used by the papacy to describe the area called the Languedoc. 

"Origin of the name of LanguedocLanguedoc literally means "language of oc". The oc languages are traditionally opposed to the oil languages, oc and oil being the ancient forms of oui (yes)."

Before Charlemagne appointed lords of great families (comtal system) to rule this area it was taken and retaken by Goths and Germanic invaders, among others. After Charlemagne, the system broke down. These areas of Southern France were lorded over independently and not under the authority of any central government.  

The Cathars definitely distinguished themselves from papacy. They called themselves "Good Christians" as you learned Cathars rejected everything in the OT except for the Ten Commandments. They also denied the humanity , death and resurrection of Christ. Their idea of being a Christian was very far removed from the beliefs of papacy.

I agree about the saints, it's good to know who you are talking about otherwise it could Mr. Francis if it's up to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2017 at 15:40
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No doubt the Papacy saw them as a threat, why else slaughter them all?

Ah, one of the great Christian acts of the time. If you don't agree with us, die!

And please, get his name right, Mr. Jorge Mario Bergoglio, or, if you were an Australia, plain old Jorge.LOL

But not to cast aspersions, times have changed, priests or postulants who disagree with Rome now are simply excommunicated.


I often wonder why I try.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2017 at 16:11
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

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No doubt the Papacy saw them as a threat, why else slaughter them all?

Ah, one of the great Christian acts of the time. If you don't agree with us, die!

And please, get his name right, Mr. Jorge Mario Bergoglio, or, if you were an Australia, plain old Jorge.LOL

But not to cast aspersions, times have changed, priests or postulants who disagree with Rome now are simply excommunicated.



Pope Jorge, what's wrong with that?LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2017 at 00:10
Who is this "Jorge"?  You say 'his' name is "Jorge..." but I don't know who this 'he' is.  Francis of Assisi?  Pope Francis?

It is very simple.  If it is a choice between death and eternity in hell, death is better.  If it is a choice between heretics leading people to hell, and killing heretics, then it is nicer to kill the heretics, than to allow them to convince people into hell.  You may not believe in heresy, or hell.  But given their beliefs, death is better than an eternity in hell.  Their beliefs have a certain kind of logic, you should be able to see that, even if you vehemently disagree with it.  You can mock it (as Voltaire did), but I doubt you, or anyone for that matter, can disprove it.
It is not until Voltaire that tolerence becomes accepted as an idea, if not always a reality, although toleration becomes an issue for Locke before that. 

Vanuatu, I guess I don't know about Theresa of Avila, I was thinking of Julian of Norwich.  (Julian?  Julian? Julian the apostate? not that can't be right....) <grin>  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2017 at 08:04
Yea Jorge is Pope Francis, don't you google? :)
Not mocking Francis, as saints go he is one that I've always admired. The so called authorities on Francis have said that his motives were martyrdom or conversion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2017 at 01:07
I tend not to google.
I would rather hear your golden words;) than follow a link to a youtube video, or article.
I also tend not to quote when answering a post, maybe I should....

Francis was made the patron saint for the environment, by John Paul II, you can get a dog tag saying, "St Francis, Please protect my pet." or something like that.

I want to know more about the story of Saint Francis and bilocation.  The biography of Francis, and the CD about Francis (by Great Courses), doesn't mention it, as not worthy of report.  But I think such things are a genuine part of the legend, not just of Francis, but Pythagoras and Lenin, I would like some accounting of them from the perspective of legend or myth.  Some medieval Aristotelians analyze bilocation through Aristotelianism and substance, but how that might work, I don't know.   We pretend like we would know what traveling to another time would be like, but bilocation seems way beyond the pale, and self-contradictory.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2017 at 05:31
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I want to know more about the story of Saint Francis and bilocation.  The biography of Francis, and the CD about Francis (by Great Courses), doesn't mention it, as not worthy of report.  But I think such things are a genuine part of the legend, not just of Francis, but Pythagoras and Lenin, I would like some accounting of them from the perspective of legend or myth.  Some medieval Aristotelians analyze bilocation through Aristotelianism and substance, but how that might work, I don't know.   We pretend like we would know what traveling to another time would be like, but bilocation seems way beyond the pale, and self-contradictory.

Francis had medieval biographers, they wrote about the stigmata at length. No doubt you'll find accounts of bi-location, I didn't know that about Francis.

In a multiverse with wizard level consciousness you could slay Balrog, spend a thousand years in the blink of an eye and come back all shiny. Didn't you see The Two Towers?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2017 at 23:21
I just picked up a Italian published book in English, one of the series on Italian museums and monuments, on Assisi.  Looking at the introduction, Francis' birth name was John. <grin>
There were two biographies in his lifetime or shortly after, then an official one came out, and the other accounts were suppressed (probably partially because they added to the confusion), and a new one was done.  The first and second survived in ms. and I think the second knew about a took account of the first.
I think was Bonaventura who did the official biography.

From the introduction, it sounds like Assisi was the poster child for unrest and conflict before Francis (and Clare) came along.  Francis was a clothier's son and Clare was minor aristocracy.

You ever see "Return of the Lord of the Rings to the Two Towers Video Store"?  It is a South Park Episode.
Warning, it is not graphic, but you probably don't want to have to explain it to young children.

A friend once told me about this mystic Jewish story about two Kabbalists who were walking along a mountain path, and they came to a rushing stream, one levitated himself across the river, and then on the other side mocked the other for picking his way across on the rocks and logs.  The second commented an aside saying the first one did not know what such power was for.

Gandalf doesn't really do flashy magic in TLotR.  He's more subtle, like my personality. <grin>
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2017 at 05:09
I read one story about Francis and bi location. He is said to have been in two rooms of the monastery at the same time. If You could be in two places at once, wouldn't you be a little more creative:)? Not saying it doesn't happen but I think your body stays in one place but the conscious mind can manifest like a hologram.

Yes I saw plenty of South Park. Remember how "edgy" it was at the time? It was good for a laugh and an outrage.

"You Shall Not Pass!!" not subtle ;) 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2017 at 23:32
I think that two rooms at the same time is maybe less dramatic and more "realistic" than far-off locations, maybe.  For Pythagoras, he was said to be in two places at the same time, but one of those places was impossible, because it didn't exist in his lifetime.  So you have a story with a built in flaw from the very beginning....  hmmm.  What does it mean when you assert a fantastic story, and prove it wrong (in its details) at the same time?  Most miracle stories, we are supposed to take them on faith, but what if they say, for example, Pythagoras was in Metapontum and Tauromenium at the same time, but Tauromenium was not founded until about 150 years after Pythagoras?  Or Metapontum and Thurium, with Thurium being founded about 50 years after Pythagoras?  Did someone just not get there story straight? or are other games being played here?

What is with the priestly gerbil?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2017 at 05:40
If you can accept bilocation then why not shifting from present to past and back again.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2017 at 18:22
touche.  Actually neither accept nor reject bilocation, just wonder what the heck they mean when they refer to it.  But yes, bilocation would probably be a variant on time travel.

In some ways, Francis was a little bit of a nut, in other ways, he was exactly what medieval Europe needed at the time.  He probably would have been persecuted if he had not gone to first, the local bishop, then to the pope for their endorsements.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 15:09
Yea, helps having People. So he is crazy like a hookah smoking fox. He wasn't big on the "oh I am a worthless sinner" nonsense. He didn't grovel much, except to God in a way that maybe his superiors understood to mean a devotion to themselves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2017 at 22:07
But if he had gotten more followers before he went to the Pope, (or to the bishop before that), he would have been more threatening.  I think he had 12 (the magic number) before he went to the Pope (after having been endorsed by the local bishop first).  Just enough for the Pope to say, "there is something here, and we can capitalize on it," but not big enough to seem out of control.  A good alternative to Albigensianism.
I wonder if Francis was a vegetarian.  I wonder if one of the reasons why animals shy away from people (besides us being devils), is because they can smell that people have meat in their diets.  Of course, like the Wolf of _____, carnivores probably wouldn't really care.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2017 at 06:35
Quote Of course, like the Wolf of _____, carnivores probably wouldn't really care.

Would you enlighten me please?

Francis was said to be a cheerful guy. In rags and starving most of the time. More than once he trekked in six feet of snow to feed kids. No shoes! Most poor people didn't have them. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2017 at 17:29
The "Wolf of Gubbio" was a wolf terrorizing the town of Gubbio that Francis tamed (the wolf, not the town).  He sat down with him and had a nice chat.  Pythagoras was said to have done the same thing with the Daunian bear (Iamblichus V.P.), so it must be a thang to do for mystics and saints.  Pythagoras was, supposedly, a vegetarian.  There are a few accounts regarding his diet that differ.

I doubt a carnivore, if he smelled that you had eaten meat, would be bothered by it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 hours 43 minutes ago at 16:14
What about farm animals that were fed with the remnants of other animals? It was investigated during the mad cow disease event 20 years ago. Reports included the practice of the Papua New Guinea tribes who eat their ancestors. Even burying them for a few days bc they enjoyed the taste more. There were many documented cases of neurological disease among the people of Papua New Guinea. The practice is slowly becoming a thing of the past.

There are films showing the same imbalance and mal coordination among members of those tribes who ate ancestors, looking similar to the cows who got the disease.

Humans eating humans is nothing new. The Papuans have a penchant for eating brains, and certainly every cow who ate feed made from other cows didn't show symptoms of MCD. They were euthanized as a precaution.

I think carnivores see you as prey or to big to be prey. The Papuans eat the ancestors to receive spiritual strength but if it made all of them ill, they wouldn't do it-would they?

Recent articles suggest that wolves didn't hunt humans, but they are a common villain in medieval stories. Maybe wolves being scavengers created a false narrative. If Francis was able to be close enough to a wolf for a conversation, it suggests a different reason for wolves being around humans.
Scraps of food can be found near humans, certainly something a wolf or bear would remember.

Animals being led to slaughter do best when they can't see around the next corner. They do show severe distress when they can hear other animals dying.

The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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