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Topic ClosedFetishizing Native Americans

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 2009 at 16:23
Although, I must admit, when he mentioned the "hats" and the fetish the tourists have for those "fedoras" without realizing that they are "ethnic" markers, he had me rolling on the floor in spasms of laughter.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 2009 at 16:38
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Prince of Zeila Prince of Zeila wrote:

..There are plenty of men from all kinds of backgrounds that find west African women beautiful, don't pretend this is the result of political correctness. People might have their preferences(usually towards someone of a similar background) but beauty is beauty.
 
Each one with its tastes, of course. Wink
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 2009 at 17:50
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


 

Don't be silly. By now most indigenous "nations" are mestizos, too.

Most indigenous groups don't consider themselves mestizoes. That's precisely the point. You can go and tell them they are mestizo if you want to, but I'm sure they don't like it.

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The only difference is cultural, and more or less percentages.

All ethnic differences are cultural.

Quote
By the way, Latin American countries were build by European, mestizos and westernized Indians, and not by the remote and isolated communities that  by now claim they are the only "real" natives.

True, but I don't see how that's relevant here.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 2009 at 20:56
Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

...Most indigenous groups don't consider themselves mestizoes. That's precisely the point. You can go and tell them they are mestizo if you want to, but I'm sure they don't like it.

I have done, and most agree. However, once and by Internet I chatted with a Navajo who has a (curiously) Spanish last name. It was quite a curious thing that we  both have similar origins but that identities were so different.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 04:40
Pinguino, the Navajo learned the art of silversmithing from the Mexicans, and some silver smiths adopted "Mexican" as a last name. You will also find Spanish names among the Pueblo Indians, as well as among the Comanche. In the last case, identifying members of the tribe descended from Mexicans who were adopted into the tribe, or worked their way out of Comanche slavery into the warrior class.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 08:31
Yes, last names do not mean so much. There are thousands of native Americans that have english names, still they do not consider themselves in any way English or mixed with English, instead they keep a cultural identity as Native Americans. Same in many places in Latin America, thousands of natives have spanish, or in Brazil, portuguese names, still they do not consider themselves as mestis and they do not like to be referred to as such.
 
And if we leave America for a moment we can see similar phenomena in other parts of the world, for example in the Phillipines where millions of people have spanish names but for sure do not feel Spanish in any way.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 14:39
Did anyone else notice the elephant in the room, or am I the only one with a fully functioning set of testicles who is capable is realising it?

The person who created this thread creates it to remark on a pseudo-sexual fixation of European people on Native Americans. Frankly, people of European descent are normally interested in large breasted European women, if one or two individuals happen to take a liking to Native American culture then that makes no difference to that. Native American culture is not especially important to people of European heritage. At best it is a peripheral interest.

Following the claim that 'Western' people have an especial fetish for Native Americans, the creator of this thread then decides to engage in his own racism, by claiming that never could he find a Western African woman beautiful. To me the aim of this is quite obvious. A person who feels insecure about their own ethnic group feels to the need to belittle a 'lesser' ethninc group in order to feel better about themself.

So let's be frank and blunt, without silly pretenses. The typical European has little interest in Indigenous American culture, and only a very TINY minorty will ever develop a fetish for it. While Latin American culture may be interesting, it is no more interesting to Westerners than the social structure of the Arabs, the nation states established under traditional Chinese culture, or the various cultures of their primitive nature built within the confines of Africa.

Frankly, traditional Native American culture holds no more value than most others in European consciousness. I find Arab/Turkish culture more interesting for all its organisation and advances than the nascent Inca and Aztec empires. Sorry if that offends you, but it is the way we see things. We don't belittle Native American achievements at all. But to claim we have some sort of pseudo-sexual interest (you did use the word fetish) in your culture is simply wrong. Consider yourself special if you like, but I would rather make a trip to Mecca rather than Machu Pichu.

Edited by Constantine XI - 01 Aug 2009 at 15:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 15:05
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Pinguino, the Navajo learned the art of silversmithing from the Mexicans, and some silver smiths adopted "Mexican" as a last name. You will also find Spanish names among the Pueblo Indians, as well as among the Comanche. In the last case, identifying members of the tribe descended from Mexicans who were adopted into the tribe, or worked their way out of Comanche slavery into the warrior class.
 
Actually, even the name "Pueblo" comes from Spanish. A curious thing for natives to have a Spanish collective name. What I see in the South West is the assimilation of many Spaniards to the Indigenous ways after the Spanish control fade away. That happened in other places of Latin America as well, but not as marked as in the South West.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 15:12
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Yes, last names do not mean so much.
 
Here comes the expert, again Confused
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

There are thousands of native Americans that have english names, still they do not consider themselves in any way English or mixed with English, instead they keep a cultural identity as Native Americans.
 
Being Native American in the U.S. today is like beeing Jewish or Muslim. These group have a collective identity but almost 90% of theirs culture is mainstream.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Same in many places in Latin America, thousands of natives have spanish, or in Brazil, portuguese names, still they do not consider themselves as mestis and they do not like to be referred to as such.
 
Thousand? The pure natives of Latin America are 70 millions, and the mixed people are the majority on a region of 600 millions. Get better inform on your numbers Wink 
 
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

And if we leave America for a moment we can see similar phenomena in other parts of the world, for example in the Phillipines where millions of people have spanish names but for sure do not feel Spanish in any way.
 
In South America, at least, people is very careful to carry the last names of theirs ancestors. Indigenous last names are minoritary simply because the male indigenous contribution to the melting pot is minoritary.
By the way, how come a Swedish speaker could distinguish Spanish last names? How could know which of these is indigenous or Spanish? For instance: Mamani, Barini, Suarez, Calquin and Olguin may sound very similar to you. Guess which is Spanish and which is indigenous LOL
 
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 15:24
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

...Frankly, people of European descent are normally interested in large breasted European women, if one or two individuals happen to take a liking to Native American culture then that makes no difference to that. Native American culture is not especially important to people of European heritage. At best it is a peripheral interest.

Of course. Native American culture is important for people of the Americas; not Europe. In fact, in the Americas Europe is reducing its importance as well and very fast.
With respect to Native Women, the fact the intermarriage was widespread just show a fact. Some Europeans like them, as much as today are nuts with East Asia women and for the same reason: infantile looks.
 
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

...
Following the claim that 'Western' people have an especial fetish for Native Americans, the creator of this thread then decides to engage in his own racism, by claiming that never could he find a Western African woman beautiful. To me the aim of this is quite obvious. A person who feels insecure about their own ethnic group feels to the need to belittle a 'lesser' ethninc group in order to feel better about themself.
 
I created the tread because image like these:
 
 
And not because some hidden sexual problems, Freud.

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

...
So let's be frank and blunt, without silly pretenses. The typical European has little interest in Indigenous American culture, and only a very TINY minorty will ever develop a fetish for it. While Latin American culture may be interesting, it is no more interesting to Westerners than the social structure of the Arabs, the nation states established under traditional Chinese culture, or the various cultures of their primitive nature built within the confines of Africa.
 
And?

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

...
Frankly, traditional Native American culture holds no more value than most others in European consciousness.
 
 
And? So, Europeans have to decide what is good or bad?
 
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

...
I find Arab/Turkish culture more interesting for all its organisation and advances than the nascent Inca and Aztec empires. Sorry if that offends you, but it is the way we see things. We don't belittle Native American achievements at all. But to claim we have some sort of pseudo-sexual interest (you did use the word fetish) in your culture is simply wrong. Consider yourself special if you like, but I would rather make a trip to Mecca rather than Machu Pichu.
 
If you are interested in Arabs and Turks, post in the sections about Arabs and Turks and don't waste your time here.
 
In my case, I am a lot more interested in the history of the Americas and its people than in a culture like Islam that has been sleeping during 500 years... LOL
 
And, yes, I preffer to go to Machu Picchu, Tikal or Philadelphia or the monument to Crazy Horse, rather than go to boring Mecca where I won't be allowed the entrance to many places, and where I won't even be allow to drink a beer Confused
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 15:35
My point is simply that while one or two European may find Latin American cultures very interesting, it is wrong to portray Western culture as having some sort of special fetish for Latin America. It doesn't exist.

And also I personally object to the dismissive remarks you made about West African womens' attractiveness while trying to justify your argument. That was simply rude and uncalled-for.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 15:39
Hey, pinguin!  The Cleveland Indian is without doubt the coolest logo in sports.  Everone likes it.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 15:44
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

My point is simply that while one or two European may find Latin American cultures very interesting, it is wrong to portray Western culture as having some sort of special fetish for Latin America. It doesn't exist.
 
Fetishism is particularly strong in the Americas. I know that Europe don't even consider Latin America as part of the map, and that shows in the prefference on shows on Asia and Africa that crowd the programming of theirs cable channels. But who cares? The feeling is mutual. But now Europe is "old history" to us.
 
What you can't deny, though, is that many Europeans cough a fever to going native. In Germany, for instance, there are American Indian wannabes clubs Confused... But more strange is that once in a while certain adventurers want to become Amerindian, like the case of Grey Owl and many New Agers.
With respect to Latin American culture, this is not Amerindian exclusively, and I know beyond some Caribean rythms it is hardly known anything in Europe.

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:


And also I personally object to the dismissive remarks you made about West African womens' attractiveness while trying to justify your argument. That was simply rude and uncalled-for.
 
Someone here claimed that Europeans found Indians attractive. Other guy apply the false democratic point that all women are attractive. I just gave my oppinion that Europeans (before the PC brainwashing) had some clear prefference, and that many Native American women were idealized by them. Look at this coin. Isn't she cute?
 


Edited by pinguin - 01 Aug 2009 at 15:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 15:49
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

Hey, pinguin!  The Cleveland Indian is without doubt the coolest logo in sports.  Everone likes it.
 
 
Well, everyone loves Memin Pinguin in Mexico. Isn't the same? What do you think?
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 01 Aug 2009 at 15:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 15:59
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

Hey, pinguin!  The Cleveland Indian is without doubt the coolest logo in sports.  Everone likes it.
 
 
Well, everyone loves Memin Pinguin in Mexico. Isn't the same? What do you think?
 
 
 
 
No way.  Big smile
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 16:46
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Being Native American in the U.S. today is like beeing Jewish or Muslim. These group have a collective identity but almost 90% of theirs culture is mainstream.
 
That depends what you put in the word culture. And most North American natives have not a collective identity, many identify with their own people, for example a lenape does not claim to be apache or vice versa.
  
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 Thousand? The pure natives of Latin America are 70 millions, and the mixed people are the majority on a region of 600 millions. Get better inform on your numbers Wink 
 
I know the numbers.
 
I also know that the percent of native, white, black, mixed varies from country to country, it is not the same proportions between different groups in the whole of Latin America.
 
All Latin american natives have not Spanish names and not all that have consider themselves mestis or latino. 
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

In South America, at least, people is very careful to carry the last names of theirs ancestors. Indigenous last names are minoritary simply because the male indigenous contribution to the melting pot is minoritary.
 
Many have Spanish last names because they have been force fed latino culture, names and religion but still some keep their culture and do not consider themselves latino or mixed. By some groups there is also a cultural revival going on, trying to take back parts of their stolen heritage.
 
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 01 Aug 2009 at 16:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 17:03

Pinguin, many Native Americans here have Spanish last names because of the mission systems, not necessarily because of parentage.

In fact, the racial caste system used by the Spanish Peninsulares and criollos to identify sixteen plus 'different types of humans' left with the Californios (which was even lesser degree of when the Spanish were here). But unfortunately, under the conditions brought by the U.S., that system was probably easier to handle than the pure slaughter and subjugation that followed the gold rush.... 
 
However, the Spanish culture still remains (place names, surnames, in names of material culture, etc) albeit in a form of syncretism with extant cultures...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 17:07
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

My point is simply that while one or two European may find Latin American cultures very interesting, it is wrong to portray Western culture as having some sort of special fetish for Latin America. It doesn't exist.

And also I personally object to the dismissive remarks you made about West African womens' attractiveness while trying to justify your argument. That was simply rude and uncalled-for.
 
Good to know i wasn't the only one that noticed that. Clap
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 17:08

When Swedish researcher Lars Persson travelled round in Colombia and other Latin American countries he many times where struck by the cultural differences between the mainstream rural latino population and the Native Americans that still preserved their own culture. The mainstream population did not create much music, painting, sculpture or other artistic expressions themselves but instead listened to mass produced music in radio and bought color prints of Jesus, Mary, saints and other things in some local shop. When he visited the natives they created their own music, sculpture, painting and other art and cultural expressions. He also noticed that he in the mainstream society often was in the risk of being robbed or having his things stolen. Those problems he never experienced among the natives. When he talked with many of the mainstream people they often seemed very uninterested in most things and many times they seemed to prefer listening to the radio than talking. Among the natives they asked him a lot of questions about his country, family, beliefs, culture and similar. And they also themselves told him a lot about their own culture, life and beliefs.

So in many places there seems to be a distinct difference between the genuine native cultures and the mainstream latino culture that threatens to completely engulf them.


Edited by Carcharodon - 01 Aug 2009 at 17:14
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 17:13
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

The typical European has little interest in Indigenous American culture, and only a very TINY minorty will ever develop a fetish for it.
I have to disagree with that. Things may I suppose be changing but for generations the typical European boy (and such girls as he was willing to allow in) has been fascinated by the (admittedly largely fictitious) 'wild west' as indeed several people have already pointed out.
 
Moreover if you go virtually any celebration of anything, especially in the open air, you'll find Germans particularly line dancing, sitting around in pseudo-Western bars, singing western songs and so forth.  Yes there will be cowboys but there will be Indians too. Especially pseudo-squaws.
 
Why this is so I have no idea, and I accept it has very litlle to do with the reality of American Indian culture, it's certainly typically European in a way that no other 'frontiers' are.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 17:16
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Pinguino, the Navajo learned the art of silversmithing from the Mexicans, and some silver smiths adopted "Mexican" as a last name. You will also find Spanish names among the Pueblo Indians, as well as among the Comanche. In the last case, identifying members of the tribe descended from Mexicans who were adopted into the tribe, or worked their way out of Comanche slavery into the warrior class.
 
Actually, even the name "Pueblo" comes from Spanish.
For *****'s sake! The name was given to them by the Spanish who 'discovered' them. They're also called 'Indians' which doesn't mean they're part English. 'Spaniard' is an English word. Isn't it odd thant Spaniards should have a English name?
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 17:18
Originally posted by Goban Goban wrote:

Pinguin, many Native Americans here have Spanish last names because of the mission systems, not necessarily because of parentage.

In fact, the racial caste system used by the Spanish Peninsulares and criollos to identify sixteen plus 'different types of humans' left with the Californios (which was even lesser degree of when the Spanish were here). But unfortunately, under the conditions brought by the U.S., that system was probably easier to handle than the pure slaughter and subjugation that followed the gold rush.... 
 
However, the Spanish culture still remains (place names, surnames, in names of material culture, etc) albeit in a form of syncretism with extant cultures...
 
What you have in the South West is Mexican culture Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 17:20
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
Being Native American in the U.S. today is like beeing Jewish or Muslim. These group have a collective identity but almost 90% of theirs culture is mainstream.
Being Jewish is not the same as being Muslim.
 
Muslim is purely a religious designation.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 17:30
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...For *****'s sake! The name was given to them by the Spanish who 'discovered' them. They're also called 'Indians' which doesn't mean they're part English. 'Spaniard' is an English word. Isn't it odd thant Spaniards should have a English name? ...
 
Well, Ingles, Britanico y Americano are Spanish words, like Patio, Desesperado, and many other...
In fact, I don't have a clue what the ****** are you talking about LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 17:41
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

That depends what you put in the word culture. And most North American natives have not a collective identity, many identify with their own people, for example a lenape does not claim to be apache or vice versa.
 
 
ConfusedConfused... Comunitary identity sounds better, Carcha?
  
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

I know the numbers. 
 
 
Doesn't look like, I am afraid.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

All Latin american natives have not Spanish names and not all that have consider themselves mestis or latino. 
 
 
How come you are so well informed if you can't distinguish Calquin from Olguin or Barini from Mamani?
 
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Many have Spanish last names because they have been force fed latino culture, names and religion but still some keep their culture and do not consider themselves latino or mixed. By some groups there is also a cultural revival going on, trying to take back parts of their stolen heritage.
 
You never stop to surprise me how much effort you make to look ignorant on this topic.
 
Forced?
 
Half the population of natives mixed early on and peacefully with the conquistadors. Most European last names are carried by descendency, including in Native groups. Genetic shows. The name changing may have happened mostly among the friendly Indians that assimilated and that disapeared as a distinct group several centuries ago.
Yes, it has also happens that natives have change theirs last names to assimilate and avoid discrimination, but that has been voluntary rather than "forced".
 
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 17:42
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...Being Jewish is not the same as being Muslim.
Muslim is purely a religious designation.
 
 
And Jewish, too.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 18:13
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Fetishism is particularly strong in the Americas. I know that Europe don't even consider Latin America as part of the map, and that shows in the prefference on shows on Asia and Africa that crowd the programming of theirs cable channels. But who cares? The feeling is mutual. But now Europe is "old history" to us.

 

Speak for yourself. I have a lot of friends in Mexico who aren't as bigoted as you.

Quote
What you can't deny, though, is that many Europeans cough a fever to going native.

Yes, we can: most Europeans don't give a royal flying rat's ass about Latin America either way.

And no, that's not a sign of covert racism or European ignorance, most people in any country don't give a damn about what happens outside of of their own continent.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 18:37
Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

....Speak for yourself. I have a lot of friends in Mexico who aren't as bigoted as you.
 
Curious. Most Mexicanos have bigotes...
 

Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

....
... most people in any country don't give a damn about what happens outside of of their own continent.
 
True.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 18:45
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
ConfusedConfused... Comunitary identity sounds better, Carcha?
 
Many natives have an identity as being a part of their own people, at the same time as they are citicens of for example USA.  
   
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

  Doesn't look like, I am afraid.  
 
Then you just look wrong.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

  Forced?
 
Half the population of natives mixed early on and peacefully with the conquistadors. Most European last names are carried by descendency, including in Native groups. Genetic shows. The name changing may have happened mostly among the friendly Indians that assimilated and that disapeared as a distinct group several centuries ago.
Yes, it has also happens that natives have change theirs last names to assimilate and avoid discrimination, but that has been voluntary rather than "forced".
 
Rubbish, they were forcefully fed with catholicism and was forced or tricked into slaving for missionaries, encomiendas and in all sorts of exploitive enterprises. In that process they were also loosing their own real names. To call that peacefully is not to call things with their right name.
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 01 Aug 2009 at 18:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 2009 at 21:50
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...For *****'s sake! The name was given to them by the Spanish who 'discovered' them. They're also called 'Indians' which doesn't mean they're part English. 'Spaniard' is an English word. Isn't it odd thant Spaniards should have a English name? ...
 
Well, Ingles, Britanico y Americano are Spanish words, like Patio, Desesperado, and many other...
In fact, I don't have a clue what the ****** are you talking about LOL
I think it's obvious to anyone you're completely out of your depth. I just don't know why you find the fact funny. It's patently ridiculous verging ion the insane to think a people are somehow related to Spain because the name the Spanish gave them was a Spanish name. Just as it would be stupid to think Indians (and West Indians) are British because the British gave them the name.
 
In any case 'pueblo' is originally a Latin word that the Spanish corrupted. And it was probably something similar in a Latin precursor before that.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

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