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Do We Exist?

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    Posted: 31 Oct 2017 at 00:36
Quote Simulation suggests 68 percent of the universe may not actually exist: New model shows accelerated expansion can happen without dark energy
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4368950/Simulation-suggests-68-universe-not-exist.html#ixzz4x2d6Byk4 

So, there's a beter than even chance that we don't exist. LOL

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no matter how improbable, must be the truth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2017 at 00:48
Really takes the pressure off.
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2017 at 07:26
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Really takes the pressure off.

I wonder how we find out if we're a part of the 60%?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2017 at 12:33
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Really takes the pressure off.

I wonder how we find out if we're a part of the 60%?

Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment, things become concrete when you observe them.
If Dark Energy behaves like atomic matter then a corner of the universe could not really exist until it was observed neither could we! 

A cat is placed in a steel box along with a Geiger counter, a vial of poison, a hammer, and a radioactive substance. When the radioactive substance decays, the Geiger detects it and triggers the hammer to release the poison, which subsequently kills the cat. The radioactive decay is a random process, and there is no way to predict when it will happen. Physicists say the atom exists in a state known as a superposition—both decayed and not decayed at the same time.

Until the box is opened, an observer doesn't know whether the cat is alive or dead—because the cat's fate is intrinsically tied to whether or not the atom has decayed and the cat would, as Schrödinger put it, be "living and dead ... in equal parts" until it is observed. (More physics: The Physics of Waterslides.)

In other words, until the box was opened, the cat's state is completely unknown and therefore, the cat is considered to be both alive and dead at the same time until it is observed.

"If you put the cat in the box, and if there's no way of saying what the cat is doing, you have to treat it as if it's doing all of the possible things—being living and dead—at the same time," explains Eric Martell, an associate professor of physics and astronomy at Millikin University. "If you try to make predictions and you assume you know the status of the cat, you're [probably] going to be wrong. If, on the other hand, you assume it's in a combination of all of the possible states that it can be, you'll be correct."

Immediately upon looking at the cat, an observer would immediately know if the cat was alive or dead and the "superposition" of the cat—the idea that it was in both states—would collapse into either the knowledge that "the cat is alive" or "the cat is dead," but not both.

Schrödinger developed the paradox, says Martell, to illustrate a point in quantum mechanics about the nature of wave particles.

"What we discovered in the late 1800s and early 1900s is that really, really tiny things didn't obey Newton's Laws," he says. "So the rules that we used to govern the motion of a ball or person or car couldn't be used to explain how an electron or atom works."


The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2017 at 13:05
How cruel. Why not put a human in the sealed container instead?

I think I'll opt to be part of the Universe that doesn't exist.

So sue me!!Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2017 at 14:24
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

How cruel. Why not put a human in the sealed container instead?

I think I'll opt to be part of the Universe that doesn't exist.

So sue me!!Wink

I quite agree, invisible is THE place to be. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2017 at 14:35
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

How cruel. Why not put a human in the sealed container instead?

I think I'll opt to be part of the Universe that doesn't exist.

So sue me!!Wink

[quote]I quite agree, invisible is THE place to be. Wink


As and it purtains to a certain individual, that's where I intend to remain.Wink


Edited by toyomotor - 31 Oct 2017 at 14:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2017 at 23:36
I want to be noticed by the people I want to notice me.  
Other than that I kind of consider it as part of the surveillance state.  Like when you use a credit card, and the clerk makes sure to call you by your name.  I know they have been trained to do that.

They're doing it to make you feel important and alive, but really it just makes me feel manipulated and dead matter.  But as far as existing, that is another question.  But certain theology asserts that God does not "exist," in the sense that God is not a thing like other things, he is the basis for all things existing, and therefore not a thing Himself.  Maybe we subsist, that is another possibility.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2017 at 05:18
If I can't see it, smell it, hear it or feel it, does it exist?Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2017 at 11:38
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

If I can't see it, smell it, hear it or feel it, does it exist?Wink

How reliable are the senses? Optics and sound can be manipulated. Where does color exist?

Is color a concept that we apply in the correct measure because we know a stop sign is Red and White?

In US if you ask someone "what color is a traffic sign for YIELD?" they may say Yellow if they were old enough to see one in 1975. The color changes after 1975 to Red. Most older people will say Yellow despite the fact that they have seen Red Yield signs.

What color is a tomato at night? Black or Red?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2017 at 12:11
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

If I can't see it, smell it, hear it or feel it, does it exist?Wink

How reliable are the senses? Optics and sound can be manipulated. Where does color exist?

Is color a concept that we apply in the correct measure because we know a stop sign is Red and White?

In US if you ask someone "what color is a traffic sign for YIELD?" they may say Yellow if they were old enough to see one in 1975. The color changes after 1975 to Red. Most older people will say Yellow despite the fact that they have seen Red Yield signs.

What color is a tomato at night? Black or Red?


What colour is a Blackberry when it's green?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2017 at 12:14
Existence and observation are two different things. The form of reality has been increasingly undeer research and the answers it seems are often increasingly bizarre. It would be very easy to assume, for instance, that the world is exactly as we see it, but no - it most certainly isn't.
 
Our eyes transmit data on light experienced and send it to the brain via the optic nerve. Our brains then assemble an internal image of what we see. It will suprise some of you to learn that colour - which we tend to take for granted - does not exist. Light is just light, and our eyes are sensitive to a range of wavelengths. The brain creates colour to differentiate between observable wavelengths easily  and make vision even more useful for our daily survival. it's a sensory trick, nothing more.
 
Nature does things like this. Sharks can 'see' electrical fields which help them hunt. It's now believed that bats don't just hear their vocal echoes to seek out obstructions, the data is actually mapped out inside their heads as a visual guide.
 
All well and good. Nature however has other tricks up its sleeve, such as the ramification of quantum mechanics that the universe exists because it is observed. In other words, it might well be that our existence creates a universe to be observed thus the act of observation is actually proof that we exist.
 
On the other hand, the ability to type this post means I am interacting with an external universe thus I must exist, and because others interact with the posts I make, I must rationally assume that you guys exist as well. How we perceive this existence, as I already touched on above, can be very different.
 
The old adage 'I think therefore I am' is an obvious argument but since some people find it harder to think than others (Some actually require loud music or other distractions in their daily business to avoid having to think - it 'does their head in'), clearly those that think are more real than others. Unless you happen to watch news programs like Russia Today and believe that idiot who thinks the deployment of US Marines in Norway is a 'sinister' development - good grief man, it's just geo-military-politics and the same game played since mankind invented nation states.
 
Anyway, I'm thinking of getting a takeaway. I must be hungry. Or has my thinking provoked hunger? better yet, I happen to realise that having dioscovered the need to feed, there's little doubt that the universe will create a fast food outlet. Life can be so simple if you just think about it :D
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov 2017 at 12:32
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Existence and observation are two different things. The form of reality has been increasingly undeer research and the answers it seems are often increasingly bizarre. It would be very easy to assume, for instance, that the world is exactly as we see it, but no - it most certainly isn't.
 
Our eyes transmit data on light experienced and send it to the brain via the optic nerve. Our brains then assemble an internal image of what we see. It will suprise some of you to learn that colour - which we tend to take for granted - does not exist. Light is just light, and our eyes are sensitive to a range of wavelengths. The brain creates colour to differentiate between observable wavelengths easily  and make vision even more useful for our daily survival. it's a sensory trick, nothing more.
 
Nature does things like this. Sharks can 'see' electrical fields which help them hunt. It's now believed that bats don't just hear their vocal echoes to seek out obstructions, the data is actually mapped out inside their heads as a visual guide.
 
All well and good. Nature however has other tricks up its sleeve, such as the ramification of quantum mechanics that the universe exists because it is observed. In other words, it might well be that our existence creates a universe to be observed thus the act of observation is actually proof that we exist.
 
On the other hand, the ability to type this post means I am interacting with an external universe thus I must exist, and because others interact with the posts I make, I must rationally assume that you guys exist as well. How we perceive this existence, as I already touched on above, can be very different.
 
The old adage 'I think therefore I am' is an obvious argument but since some people find it harder to think than others (Some actually require loud music or other distractions in their daily business to avoid having to think - it 'does their head in'), clearly those that think are more real than others. Unless you happen to watch news programs like Russia Today and believe that idiot who thinks the deployment of US Marines in Norway is a 'sinister' development - good grief man, it's just geo-military-politics and the same game played since mankind invented nation states.
 
Anyway, I'm thinking of getting a takeaway. I must be hungry. Or has my thinking provoked hunger? better yet, I happen to realise that having dioscovered the need to feed, there's little doubt that the universe will create a fast food outlet. Life can be so simple if you just think about it :D
The bit about color being non existent, no debate from me, some people don't see color. 
But your explanation of the vision process is an extension of a belief in rods & cones. IMHO

Piaget, (child development psychologist) asked ten year old kids in the 1940's about where vision comes from. 
Was it inside your head and thus opening  your eyes projected your view? Or did you see an actual world outside of yourself? 
The kids then, like kids today believe the vision came from inside them outward to the world. They held this belief until they had the school lesson on rods and cones. At that point the kids stopped believing in the interior origin of their vision.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2017 at 00:04
Greeks believed in rays coming out of the eyes.  I mean it is more complex than that, but that is [part of it), not just a passive reception.

Bishop Berkeley believed in "esse est percipi" (lord I hate spell check), to be is to be perceived.  So what happened when you shut the door and nobody was left in the room, well God perceives it.  Then comes "esse est percipere" (to be is to perceive) and "esse est percipi et percipere (to be is to be perceived and  to perceive,) which shows up in Josiah Royce's idealism in response to Hegel's dialectic.

Bishop Berkeley wrote on Colour, but I don't know what he said.
Or there is:
to do is to be (Plato??)
to be is to do (Aristotle?)
Do be do be do (the Supremes?) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2017 at 00:06
I took a light hearted approach to this topic, but although it's from the realms of quantum science, and quite frankly over my head, I really wonder what it actually means to the world and all in it.

I don't for one minute pretend to understand the science behind all of this, but like Astronomy, to me, does it really matter?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2017 at 23:44
Can't say, I don't know what your criteria for "mattering" is.
Genetics seem to "matter" to you, the evolutionary tree of the human races seems to matter to you, homo florensis and Densinovians are cool, but I fail to see any "practical" import to them, as far as how the world sees "practical" import.  Of course, I don't agree with the world all the time, but at the same time, they don't seem to notice....

Astronomy originally had practical applications for navigation, and I believe the US Navy still teaches it to its officers, in case the GPS system gets knocked out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2017 at 23:58
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Can't say, I don't know what your criteria for "mattering" is.
Genetics seem to "matter" to you, the evolutionary tree of the human races seems to matter to you, homo florensis and Densinovians are cool, but I fail to see any "practical" import to them, as far as how the world sees "practical" import.  Of course, I don't agree with the world all the time, but at the same time, they don't seem to notice....

Astronomy originally had practical applications for navigation, and I believe the US Navy still teaches it to its officers, in case the GPS system gets knocked out.

1. Yes, genetics matter to me, as an interest in world populations.

2. Likewise the evolutionary tree matters to me for the same reason.

3. The "practical" import is that they're a part of our evolution-again, an interest.

4. Yes, I mispoke-I really meant the study of space and other planets (parts of astronomy)-I doubt if I'll benefit from them at all, unless, that is, they reveal the existance of alien life. That would be interesting to me.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2017 at 00:09
One kind of scientist that gets employed at NASA is a geologist, we can understand our own geology, by understanding the geology of, say, Mars or Europa.  Atmosphere is very important, there are some other examples of planets or moons with atmospheres.  Or liquid on the surface.  We generally cannot see the Earth's crust or mantle, but we can look at asteroids that seem to have similar composition.  How about the Earth's magnetic field? keeps the solar wind away.  I think if you give it some time, you will see that it planetary geology might be more relevant than one would first think.  It still may not interest you, but it could have more relevance than just an "Oooh, how neat!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2017 at 05:51
Quote One kind of scientist that gets employed at NASA is a geologist, we can understand our own geology, by understanding the geology of, say, Mars or Europa. 

Are you suggesting that the geology of, say Mars for example, is in some way the same as that of Earth?

Or that the atmospheres of the two are the same?

I would rather see the money spent on solving the problems here on earth, and they are many.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2017 at 23:03
I am saying that chemistry and physics are the same, but the conditions for chemistry and physics are different.  That means there might be things (combinations, forms) elsewhere that the conditions don't exist to create them on Earth.  It also means that we might have very complicated combinations on Earth, and we don't know how they got that way, but we might see a simpler version somewhere else.

You do know that Helium was first discovered in the sun, and then on Earth?

Science generally doesn't solve problems, that is more like engineering.  But it does often identify and understand the dynamics of the problem.  If you want to understand climate, you have to understand planetary weather systems, not only ours, but planetary weather systems per se.  You also should understand how solar radiation works.  When 9/11 happened, there was a temperature spike in the United States, because all those passenger jets were grounded.  Why would that matter?  When jets fly, they make contrails and those contrails reflect sunlight back up, therefore no contrails, and scientists notice a slight spike.
The Earth is not a closed system, although it may seem like it to some.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 2017 at 10:03
Just wandering back to the OP, I admit to knowing absolutely nothing about black holes, dark matter and so on.

I know that the report refers to a "simulation", but even so, if 60% of the universe is composed of dark matter, which, in theory I think, we can't even see, or even in practice, how to we know that it's there, or not there, as the case may be?

Beats me.ConfusedConfused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Nov 2017 at 08:58
On a very similar note-
Quote Credit: Clara Moskowitz/LiveScience

NEW YORK — It was all much ado about nothing as physicists and thinkers came together to debate the concept of nothing Wednesday (March 20) here at the American Museum of Natural History.

The simple idea of nothing, a concept that even toddlers can understand, proved surprisingly difficult for the scientists to pin down, with some of them questioning whether such a thing as nothing exists at all.

The first, most basic idea of nothing — empty space with nothing in it — was quickly agreed not to be nothing. In our universe, even a dark, empty void of space, absent of all particles, is still something.


Sheesh!!!



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2017 at 02:14
dark matter is known through gravitational lensing.  Where a dense object curves light from an object (galaxy) beyond it.  The dense object that we see (probably another galaxy) is in its visible components, not dense enough to cause that much gravitational lensing.  However, something must be causing the gravitational lensing, ergo, the postulated dark matter.  Dark matter does not seem to interact with the visible galaxy much, except through gravitation.

When the big bang "happened" every thing came into being, including space and time.  During the big bang, it was not like you could be sitting outside the big bang watching it happen, because at that time there was no "place/space" outside of the bang.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2017 at 07:07
Franciscosan

You lost me right after "dark matter is known through gravitational lensing."

If dark matter is invisible, how do we know it exists.

Remember "Evidence of absence is evidence of any kind that suggests something is missing or that it does not exist."-I thinkTongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2017 at 01:10
We can know dark matter exists, because of its gravitational influence on light (and other forms of radiation).  This process is called gravitational lensing.  Light travels in a straight line, unless it is being bent by something like a large gravitational body.  If that does not make sense to you, look up gravitational lensing or even dark matter in wiki or wherever.

The way we know about gravitational lensing (and dark matter) is through observing distant galaxies, which means that very, very (2 veries) far away galaxies and their mass (including dark matter) is bending the light of very, very, very, very (4 veries) far away galaxies.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  Evidence of absence just means that something you expect to be there, is not there, and therefore, you probably have got the entire story wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2017 at 02:36
Quote Remember "Evidence of absence is evidence of any kind that suggests something is missing or that it does not exist."-I thinkTongue

Or absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I get that mucked up sometimes.LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2017 at 21:41
Remember that when you don't see God.
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