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Darwin and sexual selection

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    Posted: 14 May 2018 at 00:37
Jordon Peterson in a youtube video states that unlike the evolutionary biologists following after Darwin,  Darwin believed in sexual selection in addition to natural selection.  Sexual selection involves choice, particularly with women choosing their mates, and men choosing both individually and collectively their method of success, which is 'verified' (or shown inadequate) by women's choice.  In other words, for Darwin himself, there is not the cold determinism that so many scientists get orgasmic over.  There is room for free will and conscious decision, although not completely conscious.  I think that it is really more social-Darwinism that looks upon things as determined, and that that determination confirms the social hierarchy in the darkest manner.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2018 at 14:37
In a society where men compete for women by fighting would the female response to the charm factor cease to operate?
Darwin called it "charm" referring to the different bird songs used by the opposite sex of the same species. Everyone takes it for granted now that plumage is integral to the mating game.
So would the human female ever respond to charm if the society values fighters?
Seems to me that if it were ever a matter of charm like in birdsongs, then it would remain an attractive quality for a mate. Darwin wrote at one time that the female mechanism for choosing a mate would be inactive if men merely took the woman they won.
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2018 at 01:10
Men compete, but usually that does not consist of directly fighting.  Part of human female sexuality is that times of fertility are secret, and so therefore the male must stay around to be sure his children are his, (and thus society is born).  For Peterson, what men are responsible for are various views of society, and of what it consists.  Women can choose to reinforce this view by having the man's children and giving such a view a future.  Brute strength is only one thing that is useful in determining who is "stronger."  Unlike chimps humans generally don't fight to the death, but establish a pecking order, a hierarchy.  Cooperation is a very important virtue amongst humans.  Men admire the big, strong-jawed he-man, but I am not sure that is what women admire.

Speaking of charm, I remember a science fiction short story (Walther Jon Williams?) where the thief bribes a guard (for information), by sharing a cuban cigar with him.  Of course, the thief never says that is what he is doing, but that is what he is doing.  It is something small, special and significant, a charm.  You are scratching his back, and so he is scratching yours (monkey grooming habits.)  I suspect that it something like that, that gets "good" girls in trouble in a family way.Hug  It can be that the thing that attracts a woman to a particular man, is that he is carefree, that he is not responsible and thus won't tie her down, that he is not only not the top of the hierarchy, but tries to avoid the hierarchy altogether.  Of course, in avoiding it, he is part of another, his own hierarchy.  "You cannot go against nature, because when you do, that is part of nature too."  Midnight Oil. 

Some feminists seem to want to make men into women, and all they really make of them is bad men.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 15:06
Men don't compete by physically fighting but it was known to happen in the past.


Quote human female sexuality is that times of fertility are secret, and so therefore the male must stay around to be sure his children are his, (and thus society is born).



What time frame or tribe are you describing? Are you saying modern men?
In the age of DNA testing?

In tribal life female fertility was not a mystery, least of all to women. Remember they needed to reproduce there would have been ceremony and ritual around fertility. Also the reproductive cycle is mostly predictable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alexis5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 17:59
 It seems to me that even in modern societies , at least in most cases , the male human is the sex who selects and the female human is sex who is selected .
 Just look at the advertisement in this page , and almost 90 percent of all pages on the web , you can see only beautiful women and not handsome men .
 Even from popular songs and video musics , you may come the conclusion that  the dominant sex is the male human who selects a mate .
 And it seems to be an accepted paradigm even among most of women .
 Perhaps that's why when some feminists  want to make men into women,  all they really make of them is bad men (in that accepted paradigm) .
 And perhaps whenever you see many advertisements showing handsome men , that would be the time you may say there's no dominant sex , no sexual discrimination and not so much sex scandals .
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 22:34
Women's magazines show women and men's magazines show women.  Not sure what that means.  Human fertility is secret from men, women don't go into heat like a female dog and become (obviously) receptive when it is time.  If you (a male) want to insure that a woman has your offspring, you have to stick around. and you have to also stick around for raising of the infant since human infants are rather helpless and labor intensive.

What are all those popular songs singing about?  Usually women and love, but also how much am I a great guy so, chicks, please pay attention to me and I will praise your beauty until the ends of the Earth!  The male bird does an intricate song and dance in order to attract a mate, I am not sure humans are that different.  Is it the male that is concentrated upon?  or the female?  It is interesting though that the human plumage is more elaborate for the female than the male, unlike birds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 2018 at 23:43
Hi Alexis5, I think the culture that we know is about men selecting for preffered females. Which may not reflect the female preference like charm but offer security if his is swift and strong:) I did think these ads were generated by web searches but it has been the female form in the foreground. That will change now that sexuality is as they say, fluid. The Greeks made do without women, more than sex even love.
It's all in the mind. Males are the originators, women make things happen and the young people keep expanding our intentions. I also kind of expect "me too" to backfire when it becomes known generally, that women can be perverts and abuse people in the work place. More men will speak up after one xl media bomb.
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2018 at 00:00
Not sure which Jordan Peterson video you are referring to, is he referring to modern times?

Fertility is important in tribal societies, so important that girls are barely old enough to reproduce when they become mothers. They can't keep it from men, there is a whole social structure around fertility.

"The three days leading up to and including ovulation are the most fertile.
Depending on your cycle length the most fertile days in the cycle varies:
If you have 28 days between periods ovulation typically happens on day 14, and the most fertile days are days 12, 13, and 14.-webMD"


The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2018 at 02:39
I think it was Jordan Peterson and Nathan Carey, or a selection of it.  But, I am not sure about it.  It was him discussing with someone else.

Girls have to deal with (living through) pregnancy, and boys have to worry about being run through by spear.  You might say, they both have to worry about getting the shaftWink

If ovulation happens on day 14, then how can 12, and 13 be most fertile??  You don't have to answer that....  Just remembering how for Judaism, a woman is unclean during menstruation and a week after, or maybe it was extended by Medieval Jews to 2 weeks after(?) which would make peak fertility happen when the (horny) man can once again touch the woman.  And of course he is not supposed to satisfy himself.  btw woman can't work when they are unclean.  Also men are unclean at certain times too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2018 at 04:21
It's a fascinating question since the songbird makes a choice to an extent, there is no denying the hard wired attraction for sound. Which probably means that we are also pretty helpless after all. The smell of a mate is significant for women. Men find the fish then make like the bishop.


"there's room for a small one, said the actress to the bishop."
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alexis5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2018 at 11:18
Thanks for your replies , perhaps the main reason that, in mammals , it's mostly the male sex who goes after female , is that  as you said , the male reproduction organs , unlike female's , are most of the time ready for reproduction and another important point is that in mammals a single male , unlike a single female , can fertilize many females at a time and that's why you can see many herds in the wild , are headed by a single strong dominant male with many subordinate females .
And perhaps that's the reason men , desire more  diversity in sexual relations, and women unlike men relies much more on affection and durability in sexual relations than men .

 So because of those reasons , in the process of evolution of mammals , it's the male sex who is stronger and initiates mating .

 But I think although human is a kind of evolved animal , we should somehow depart from our brute origins and perhaps change our viewpoints about sexual relations .
Perhaps the goal of sexual relation is not just reproduction , and if we want to make it more humane , we should give it some kind of spirituality and perhaps then ,  it would really become spiritual .

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 2018 at 04:49
all the woman has to do is whistle, and the boys come running, now whose the stronger?

Females are necessary, the only other thing that is necessary, is one male, although more than that is needed so that one does not create a genetic dead-end.  Men go to war, not because men are belligerent, but because they are, individually, "disposable."

Humans have a long gestation period, plus a long infancy.  Question is, what do you call "reproduction?"  "the wham, bam, thank you ma'am"? or being there for the long hall?

It is spiritual, its creation, its life.  Spirit is what you start with, not some add-on after the fact. imo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2018 at 04:05
Only Bonobos have more sex than humans it could be the energy exchange.
Karma Sutra- Kriyas(action), pranayama(controlling breath) create ecstatic electricity kind of like a waterwheel. Kriyas used in sacred sex require control, not lust to move energy around in the body. The sex is often not the object of the practice. Using the energy to pipeline into spiritual ascent is the religious purpose.


I saw a recent news article about the bottleneck effect due to Y chromone collapse:
"In the new study, published in Nature Communications, a team of researchers from Stanford University used mathematical modeling and computer simulations to test this theory. When they pitted patrilineal clans against each other in fierce battles over the resources necessary for their survival, they found that Y-chromosome diversity dropped. On the other hand, when they simulated battles between groups in which both men and women were allowed to move across clan lines, genetic diversity didn’t suffer as much."

https://www.history.com/news/ancient-clan-wars-male-chromosome-collapse
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2018 at 05:16
V.
Quote I saw a recent news article about the bottleneck effect due to Y chromone collapse:"In the new study, published in Nature Communications, a team of researchers from Stanford University used mathematical modeling and computer simulations to test this theory. When they pitted patrilineal clans against each other in fierce battles over the resources necessary for their survival, they found that Y-chromosome diversity dropped. On the other hand, when they simulated battles between groups in which both men and women were allowed to move across clan lines, genetic diversity didn’t suffer as much."

I posted this on the topic related to Human Genetics, which we were discussing a couple of months ago.

The fact that frequent warring could have resulted in a dimunition of YDNA is only a supposition at this stage, but it seems possible.

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It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 2018 at 15:41
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

V.
Quote <span style=": rgb231, 228, 216;">I saw a recent news article about the bottleneck effect due to Y chromone collapse:</span><span style=": rgb231, 228, 216;">"In the new study, published in Nature Communications, a team of researchers from Stanford University used mathematical modeling and computer simulations to test this theory. When they pitted patrilineal clans against each other in fierce battles over the resources necessary for their survival, they found that Y-chromosome diversity dropped. On the other hand, when they simulated battles between groups in which both men and women were allowed to move across clan lines, genetic diversity didn’t suffer as much."
</span>

I posted this on the topic related to Human Genetics, which we were discussing a couple of months ago.

The fact that frequent warring could have resulted in a dimunition of YDNA is only a supposition at this stage, but it seems possible.<br style=": rgb231, 228, 216;">



Yes I remember when you mentioned it, there was a recent news story bc scientists developed a new computer model that reinforces the theory about "Clan Wars" limiting the diversity of Y chromosomes.
I agree it's not really news just more evidence.
https://www.history.com/news/ancient-clan-wars-male-chromosome-collapse?source=techstories.org
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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