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    Posted: 21 Jan 2010 at 09:23
Anybody interesting in this type of reading? Like about Jesse James or Jack the ripper or Ted Bundy and the list goes on forever. They may be the criminals but in a hundred years these names will all still be remembered for their crimes.

Edited by Scourge - 21 Jan 2010 at 09:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2010 at 09:24
Just thought it may be more helpful to move this to the Social History sub-forum, rather than the Mead Hall.

Edited by Constantine XI - 21 Jan 2010 at 09:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2010 at 09:32
Remembered? Just what does the general population recall of the individuals just mentioned? Not very much and if recall requires detail absolutely nothing that might be considered correct. Yes, if one exercises their yen for morbid curiosity, details might be gleaned by a determined sleuth or criminologist; but, remembered (with all the positive attributes the term carries) most certainly not.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scourge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2010 at 10:00
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Remembered? Just what does the general population recall of the individuals just mentioned? Not very much and if recall requires detail absolutely nothing that might be considered correct. Yes, if one exercises their yen for morbid curiosity, details might be gleaned by a determined sleuth or criminologist; but, remembered (with all the positive attributes the term carries) most certainly not.
 
 


I can name every single one of Ted Bundy's victims where they were kidnapped how they were kidnapped and how he murdered them with out looking it up and I am taking criminology at college. So in a sense this thread isn't fair.


Edited by Scourge - 21 Jan 2010 at 10:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2010 at 12:18
Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

I can name every single one of Ted Bundy's victims where they were kidnapped how they were kidnapped and how he murdered them with out looking it up and I am taking criminology at college. So in a sense this thread isn't fair.
 
Thank you for proving my points.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scourge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2010 at 13:06
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

I can name every single one of Ted Bundy's victims where they were kidnapped how they were kidnapped and how he murdered them with out looking it up and I am taking criminology at college. So in a sense this thread isn't fair.
 
Thank you for proving my points.


Yeah sure the only real people who will remember any details will be people like me yeah sure. Though that still doesn't change the fact that they are apart of history and this can be said about any part of history. Like I bet most people don't know that Hitler had animal views like that of Peta and he was a vegetarian or that he disliked it when his girlfriend wore lipstick cause it had animal bi products or even things about world war 2 like the significance of the Battke of Stalingrad or Midway and they might never have ever heard of these battles either and only say things like "we kicked their asses". When supposedly the second world war was one of the most important historical events in the history of the entire human race and that it was. On side note to other members does anybody else read about them or am i the only soul here who does.


Edited by Scourge - 21 Jan 2010 at 13:19
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Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

Anybody interesting in this type of reading? Like about Jesse James or Jack the ripper or Ted Bundy and the list goes on forever. They may be the criminals but in a hundred years these names will all still be remembered for their crimes.


Yes they are interesting in their own macabre sort of way, but here on a history site... i am not so sure? For online reading material about mass killers and other criminals, i would suggest this site:

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2010 at 19:28
As far as the great men of history are concerned they were mass-murderers more often than not.
Sing, goddess, of Achilles' ruinous anger
Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans,
And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2010 at 19:56
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

As far as the great men of history are concerned they were mass-murderers more often than not.
 
And behind every great fortune there lies an even greater crime or so goes the "folk wisdom", however, such mutterings besides emitting the aroma of jealousy only serves to obscure the pathology of the relativist, Reginmund. But then we can start an entire thread on the "Great Man Thesis" as developed under the premises of Romantic historiography.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scourge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2010 at 09:04
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

Anybody interesting in this type of reading? Like about Jesse James or Jack the ripper or Ted Bundy and the list goes on forever. They may be the criminals but in a hundred years these names will all still be remembered for their crimes.


Yes they are interesting in their own macabre sort of way, but here on a history site... i am not so sure? For online reading material about mass killers and other criminals, i would suggest this site:

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/




Yeah i know all about that site. I read articles on there all the time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2010 at 21:41
A more valuable history source than the lives and deeds of notorious criminals are the records of the petty cases of magistrates' courts and the like, the cases of people overcharging or selling underweight, being haued up as drunk and disorderly, and the like.
 
In eventually studying the history of the 20th century, the records of things like minor drug dealing. gang and racial violence - and tax evasion - will be of far more importance than the actvities of such as Bundy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scourge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2010 at 06:34
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

A more valuable history source than the lives and deeds of notorious criminals are the records of the petty cases of magistrates' courts and the like, the cases of people overcharging or selling underweight, being haued up as drunk and disorderly, and the like.
 
In eventually studying the history of the 20th century, the records of things like minor drug dealing. gang and racial violence - and tax evasion - will be of far more importance than the actvities of such as Bundy.
 
That has some truth to it but in the scheme of things when it comes to Serial Killer investigations Mr Ted Bundy has a special place in history because of his crmes. He broke grounds when it came to this type of investigation. Others have escaped justice IE the Zodiac or killed more than he did IE the Green river killer. Though none of that matters it was the way he went about it and who Bundy was as a person. He worked at the Seattle crime prevention unit as a supervisor and he worked with the governor of the state on his campaigns, he graduated with honors from the university of washington state gaining a degree in psychology and moved on the Law school. He also was able to get many women. Something that stands out. Cause before Bundy was ever known as a Serial killer. He had all of that and several front page refferences in news papers for things like running down purse snatchers or saving little children from drowning in lakes or saving people from a burning building and on top of that. He volunteered at a suicide prevention clinic for free and saved many a life. On top of all of this most of Bundy's victims vanished without a trace.
 
 
Not oh the door was kicked in and there was blood on the walls and shes gone. No the last time she was seen was going out to her car to grab her ciggs and never came back or walked to their house two houses up from their friends and never arrived. His victims for the majority went missing with out a single trace and on top of that when they were actually found they were all bones no meat no nothing and they never actually found entire bodies they just found bits and pieces. Like they would find a skull or a femur bone or a finger bone and stuff like this. They just went missing and when they were found they were bones. On top of that he killed so many people it broke the norm of Serial killer investigations who before hand never predicted anything like Bundy nor dealt with anything like him.
 
He was arrested actually for his own sh*tty driving and the fact that one victim fought him off during a kidnapping. She apparently punched him while he was driving and he swerved off the road and she ran away. On top of that he escaped from two different jails even after being sentenced to fifteen years in prison and being charged with several murders. He escaped twice the first time for two weeks and was caught in a car and the second time for almost two months and left three dead and four wounded these four women still cannot either talk, walk or remember things to ths day cause of Bundy. His crimes have become a standard for other Serial Killers and Serial Killer investigations. Many Serial Killers have given tributes to Bundy in terms of their murders. Like killing a young woman even though they wouldn't just out of a tribute to the man and cops think the same way as well. Hey we got a Serial killer get the bundy book out. So yeah he will be unless another Serial killer comes along and breaks all the grounds he broke but a million times better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2010 at 06:43
The luck of the psychopath is hardly deemed worthy of introspection. As for your use of language and the "breaking of ground" in the annals of perversity, we'll leave assessment to your psychoanalist!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scourge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2010 at 06:50
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

The luck of the psychopath is hardly deemed worthy of introspection. As for your use of language and the "breaking of ground" in the annals of perversity, we'll leave assessment to your psychoanalist!
 
Your wrong and right some of it had to do with luck. Though it is worthy of research in the sense that he did break grounds in Serial Killer investigations. NO OTHER SERIAL KILLER IS A STANDARD IN THESE TYPE OF INVESTIGATIONS AND CRIMES EXCEPT TED BUNDY! He did see each and every one of his murders as small miricles and he should cause committing a murder is hard and it takes skill and mental preparredness and to this I give Bundy praise. He wasn't just some idiot and he wasn't an evil genius like Serial killers are portrayed in movies or books either. Though Bundy is responsible for revolutionizing police work when it comes to murder investigations and with understanding the Serial killer psyche. He also "worked" on a number of other cases helping police find the killers and what they might be thinking and every single time when the killer was caught the police admit Bundy was right and we couldn't have done it with out him. If their was a such thing as being a master Serial killer and having a PHD in Serial Killing Bundy had it. If you can think of a perfect murder bundy thought of it. Though I would have loved to sit down and talk about the finer points of Serial murder with Mr. Bundy that would be one of for the history books.


Edited by Scourge - 02 Feb 2010 at 10:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2010 at 21:33
I guess you're too young to realise it since you weren't even born when Bundy was active, but for most of us this is all old stuff, and rather boring. At least the facts are old stuff, some of the myths and legends you apparently subscribe to may be new.
 
But even if Bundy were worth some special attention from history - even if serial killers were - it would need to be on the basis of reality not made-up fiction.
 
Otherwise one might as well take films like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid or Bonnie and Clyde as history. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2010 at 22:13
Tthe notion of serial killers, and tricky investigations to find them, was hardly anything that started with Bundy. Already in Germany in the 20s there were figures like Karl Grossmann, Peter Kurten (the Dusseldorf vampire) and Frits Haarmann that gave the police a lot of work and put the techniques of criminal investigation to the test.

Peter Kurten became later the inspiration for Frits Langs groundbreaking film M and also the life of Haarmann has been dramatised on film. 

Edited by Carcharodon - 02 Feb 2010 at 22:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scourge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2010 at 09:54
What I'm saying isn't myth or legend hes the standard for a modern Serial Killer investigation. Read anything by detectives who have investigated the Serial killer phenomena. Though yeah those guys in Germany were extremely interesting and so was a guy named Henry Howard Holmes. Here is an entire documentary on Holmes. He was f**kin interesting as hell. He built an entire building solely for the disposal of bodies.


H.H. Holmes America's First Serial Killer (2004)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5166091386418298401#


Edited by Scourge - 03 Feb 2010 at 09:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2010 at 10:24
I'm sorry but I'm not understanding your fascination with serial killers and other antisocial persons.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2010 at 12:24
Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

  He was f**kin interesting as hell. He built an entire building solely for the disposal of bodies.




He's not interesting, he was a whack job.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scourge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 03:58
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

  He was f**kin interesting as hell. He built an entire building solely for the disposal of bodies.




He's not interesting, he was a whack job.

So you watched the documentary cool. Though how isn't this interesting to you Bih? Holmes story is like a movie that of some evil genius or something and thats kinda what he was. Even though he wasn't a dictator or a whatever its still the same type of idea like Jesse James is still famous or Bundy or Dillinger or Al Capone or whoever.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 05:30
What's the point of being famous for being detested?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 06:03
Enough of this language abuse...none of the cited characters are famous in the least! They are infamous and if someone does not grasp that distinction then they are delusional.

Edited by drgonzaga - 04 Feb 2010 at 06:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scourge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 06:44
Never did I say I didn't know the difference nor am I acting like I don't. Though to deny that criminals gain folk hero status is undeniable and its also undeniable that in a one hundred years people will still know who Bundy or Jesse James is. I was just merely posting a thread to talk about certain criminal activity such as murder or rape not to argue about whether I'm a whackjob,  a nazi or the difference between infamous or famous. This thread about intended to be like.
 
 
Person A: "Hey I find Bundy's murders interesting ever read about em?"
 
Person B: "Yeah I have especially the July 14 1974 murders of Janice Ott and Denise Naslund in which Bundy pulled off the perfect murder of two people in the same day."
 
Person A: Yes I agree that was Bundy's best murder in terms of skull.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 07:10
There is quite a difference between the voicing of morbid curiosity and an exposition of crime within historical terms. The notion of the "best" murderer or the "more fascinating" rapist even within the context of "folk hero" status says far more of the proponent than of the subject than any of us care to contemplate. Think of the matter as an exercise in understanding and rejecting the poshliaki as Dostoevsky did in literature, and nowhere better than with the character Smerdiakov.
 
There is no substance to this thread other than to serve as outlet for an individual ego with a dubious a priori assumption: that these individuals serve as paladins of the human intellect! They are not and can only be discussed in terms of total contempt. To do otherwise is to laud the sociopath.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scourge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 09:06
Yeah but you see there is a best murderer or a more fascinating rapist. Like I'd say that the Zodiac Killer was a better killer than Ted Bundy but certainly not more fascinating than Bundy.


Edited by Scourge - 04 Feb 2010 at 09:09
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HINT: Leave tales of the macabre to Hollywood and the psychiatric couch. Other than that I suggest you buy a ticket to the next opening of Sweeney Todd!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scourge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 11:43
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

HINT: Leave tales of the macabre to Hollywood and the psychiatric couch. Other than that I suggest you buy a ticket to the next opening of Sweeney Todd!


That is stupid and ridiculous there is a best murderer (content edited). People are more skilled at murdering people than other people. Its simple fact and its dumb to say oh well there is no such thing as a Best murderer. Well a guy who never gets caught EVER for murders like the Zodiac killer is the best and the fact that he was never ever caught is proof and the fact that he committed so many in such a brutal manner only gives credit to the Zodiac whom ever he was. See we all know who Manson was, Who Bundy Was, Who Dahmer Was, Who all the Serial killers were. Though do you really think the Zodiac ever just said hey I think I'm done with murdering people? or do you think he said I'm done murdering people under the Zodiac MO?So there you guy, there is a best your wrong.

There is a more a fascinating criminal. Like somebody might say oh well your wrong I think Richard Kuklinski was better or more interesting and yes they are apart of history cause its been 21 years since Bundy died. He died on January 23 1989. That was 21 years ago a couple of weeks ago and here we are still talking about him and on TV all the time there is show after show about the guy. So to sit around and deny the darker side of humanity or sit around and research it with contempt is simply moronic and a waste of time. People came up with the concept of yin and yang good and evil for a reason not just so (content edited) like you can complain and be douche bags and constantly ruin my threads. I always get one of you on a forum. If you do not like what I say leave my threads. Its that simple. Sorry for breaking the CoC but this dude ever since I have ever joined the forum never contributes anything to my threads ever he just argues.


Edited by es_bih - 06 Feb 2010 at 05:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ziegenbartami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 11:56
Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

That is stupid and ridiculous there is a best murderer and (content edited).

The fact that you call Herr Doktor a (content edited) and use "your" rather than "you're" in the same breath is incredibly ironic, to say the least.

Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

...not just so (content edited) like you can complain and be douche bags and constantly ruin my threads. I always get one of you on a forum. If you do not like what I say leave my threads. Its that simple. Sorry for breaking the CoC but this dude ever since I have ever joined the forum never contributes anything to my threads ever he just argues.

Again with the ad hominem attacks, I see. Furthermore, forums like this one are for discussion, which like it or not, often means refutations of what others write and think. If you do not like what others have to say in response to what you write, I suggest you leave, Scourge. FWIW, by arguing your points, drgonzaga is contributing to the threads you begin.


Edited by es_bih - 06 Feb 2010 at 05:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 12:13
Scourge, ad hominem attacks show your argument to be week and further violations of our CoC.  This is a reminder and unofficial warning regarding your use of derogatory and insulting terms towards other members.  You have already been warned officially regarding your behavior.  Any further misbehavior will be cause for more serious actions from the staff.  

To all involved in this thread please do not respond to any ad hominem comments.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 12:48
Originally posted by Scourge Scourge wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

HINT: Leave tales of the macabre to Hollywood and the psychiatric couch. Other than that I suggest you buy a ticket to the next opening of Sweeney Todd!


That is stupid and ridiculous there is a best murderer and your (content edited). People are more skilled at murdering people than other people. Its simple fact and its dumb to say oh well there is no such thing as a Best murderer. Well a guy who never gets caught EVER for murders like the Zodiac killer is the best and the fact that he was never ever caught is proof and the fact that he committed so many in such a brutal manner only gives credit to the Zodiac whom ever he was. See we all know who Manson was, Who Bundy Was, Who Dahmer Was, Who all the Serial killers were. Though do you really think the Zodiac ever just said hey I think I'm done with murdering people? or do you think he said I'm done murdering people under the Zodiac MO?So there you guy, there is a best your wrong.

There is a more a fascinating criminal. Like somebody might say oh well your wrong I think Richard Kuklinski was better or more interesting and yes they are apart of history cause its been 21 years since Bundy died. He died on January 23 1989. That was 21 years ago a couple of weeks ago and here we are still talking about him and on TV all the time there is show after show about the guy. So to sit around and deny the darker side of humanity or sit around and research it with contempt is simply moronic and a waste of time. People came up with the concept of yin and yang good and evil for a reason not just so (content edited) like you can complain and be douche bags and constantly ruin my threads. I always get one of you on a forum. If you do not like what I say leave my threads. Its that simple. Sorry for breaking the CoC but this dude ever since I have ever joined the forum never contributes anything to my threads ever he just argues.



Do not say you are sorry for breaking the CoC; after you've been repeatedly warned not to!

As I have already issued an "Official Warning" to you, and you clearly do not get it, the staff will for one close this thread until things cool down, and discuss a proper action.




Edited by es_bih - 06 Feb 2010 at 05:44
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