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Christopher Columbus

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    Posted: 20 Jan 2017 at 19:25

Why 1492? Fully discuss the economic, political and scientific factors that made Columbus' voyage possible.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2017 at 22:36
The Muslims were increasingly blocking the overland routes from China, the Portuguese controlled the route around the horn of Africa, to India, etc.  Others were looking for alternatives.  Like Portugal, Spain was a seafaring nation.  Columbus, an Italian, wanting to sail around the world to China, underestimated the size of world, he was lucky that there was something in the way, else he might have fallen off the edge;) or at least never come back.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 2017 at 23:48
There's even debate now about his true identity and nationality.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john1565 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 2018 at 17:27
There might be many factors, but scientific factors? I don't think there is any
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Mar 2018 at 22:22
The world as a sphere, an underestimate of the circumference of the world.  The use of the compass and astronomy to (roughly) plan the course.  Science played a role, we just don't think of it that way.

There is even (loose) speculation that Columbus may have known of maps that referred to Greenland, and  North America.  Constructed from Viking lore.  Columbus might not have been sailing off into nowhere as much as we usually think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2018 at 03:20
Quote  Columbus might not have been sailing off into nowhere as much as we usually think.

Do we usually think that?

I dare say that his financial backers would have needed a bit more that a faint hope that he might find something.

I've always thought that he was intending to reach India for trade purposes, but somehow went astray.

Funny, there has never, AFAIK, an explanation as to how he went in completely the wrong direction.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Mar 2018 at 23:14
Columbus understood that the Earth was round, but he grossly underestimated its circumference.  He was sailing to the East Indies in order to load up on spices, etc.  Sail West enough you get to the East.  Instead, he found the West Indies, but did not understand that they were the 'west.'  It wasn't until Amerigo Vespucci that Europe realized that they had a whole new continent.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2018 at 00:07
Columbus was a Templar? Hm? Maybe.
Portugal is not even a name on the map, Phillip of France outlaws the Templars suddenly there is building of ships and castles with the Templar symbols. The Vespucci finds "Merica" Tongue

So the questions are these: why were sailors, whether they had actually sailed to the new continent themselves or not, calling the land America? And where did this name come from? No one can answer these questions with absolute certainty, but here is that “compelling theory” I referred to at the opening of this column.

The hypothesis involves several sects dating from the time of the Dead Scrolls, some of which were authored by members of these sects. According to Josephus, the historian of the Jews during the first century, the Essenes believed that “good souls” lived beyond the ocean in an idyllic region. The direction of this home of “good souls” is to the west. Another sect during this same time frame were the Nasoreans who are now believed to be the same people who developed the settlement at Qumran, where many of scrolls have been found in caves surrounding the ruins of the ancient settlement.

Now skip ahead to the present in southern Iraq where a sect who call themselves the Mandeans exist. Like the Nasoreans, the Mandeans trace their roots to a man they call Yahia Yuhana, better know to us as John the Baptist. The Mandeans use the word “natzoraje” to describe themselves and they refer to their priests as “nasoreans.” In essence, without going into all sorts of history involving travails, migrations, etc., the Mandeans, by all evidence, are surviving members of the Nasoreans.

Now consider this, folks: the Mandeans/Nasoreans, like the Essenes, believe in an idyllic land to the west. Particular to the Mandean/Nasorean thought is the belief that the inhabitants of this land to the west are so pure that they can not be seen by mortal eyes and that this land is marked by a star which they call Merica.

This idea of an idyllic land to the west under a star called Merica, which seems to date from before the time of Christ, had lingered through the centuries. Mention of an idyllic land in the west can be found in cultures ranging from the Jews to the Greeks to the Celts. Though reference to a star called Merica is not universal, it seems reasonable to assume there was knowledge of the Nasorean belief among other cultures down through the centuries. There is even a rather compelling argument that promotes the idea that the Knights Templar may have reintroduced and popularized the concept of a land to the west under a star called Merica to Europe during the early portion of the 12th century.

Is this where the name “America” came from? Well, as I said, no one knows for certain, but it is certainly an entertaining and thought-provoking hypothesis.

Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2018 at 01:28
Vanuatu

A very interesting proposition.

I have another for you. It is known that after the great Out of Africa Migration, there was a flow of people to various places on Earth, and I suggest the current day Americas was one such place. There also exists evidence of a back flow of people back into Africa (and probably joining other waves of Out of Africa).

If this theory is acceptable, it's reasonable to suggest that some of the people who returned to Africa or at least migrated back out of the Americas to other parts of the world, took with them stories of the land which they had visited, and where possibly their families had lived for some generations.

I don't suggest that they knew the location of that country in relation to the rest of the world, but over time the stories could have passed down through generations. I have no explanation of how America was originally named.

Now, Columbus was not attempting to reach what is now known as the East Indies, modern day Indonesia, he was trying to reach Asia.

That Christopher Columbus could have navigated so poorly as to end up virtually on the other side of the earth, is a mystery to me.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2018 at 01:42
Or it could be there is a dude named Amerigo Vespucci, and America was named after him.  Just as Virginia is named after the virgin queen (Elizabeth I), North and South Carolina (Charles), Georgia (George) Louisiana, and Pennsylvania.

The Greeks thought the Elysium Fields were in the West, and the Egyptians called the land of the dead the Western Lands (and buried on the west bank of the Nile), and William S. Burroughs' last book was "The Western Lands," ergo I submit to you that Burroughs was an Essene and a Templar.....Clap 

But it is an interesting story Vanuatu, I have heard that there were Jews on Columbus' ships, who had _just_ been outlawed in Spain, but moved onto the ships when that happened, and sailed with him.  There are the crypto-Jews in Southern Colorado (San Luis Valley), and probably areas of New Mexico, who settled in that remote region before the 13 Colonies.  Templars, I kind of doubt it, but I can't say I really know.
I'll look up "Merica," but from my understanding, the name originates from Amerigo Vespucci, who while he was not the first explorer, was the first to realize that America was a whole new continent.  Of course, toyomotor will argue with me that it is not new, but that is just because he is jealous that Australia is never called 'the new world,' because North and South America got there first! :P

Spice Islands.  I don't necessarily know that is where Columbus intended to go, but that was a suitable destination where he would have been perfectly happy to arrive, problem is he got to the 'West Indies" and was disappointed with what he found there, (but claimed it anyway).  
There are some anthropologist that are working on the defusion of myths and legends and how they develop.  You might see if you can look up them.  I don't remember what they say, but I kind of doubt you have evidence coming from the New World, to the Old after a certain time.


Edited by franciscosan - 06 Mar 2018 at 01:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2018 at 02:03
couldn't find anything under 'Merica.'  Of course, the specific name of a star in an ancient foreign culture  might just be to specific for the internet.....
"Amerigo Vespucci's" name in Latin is Americus--hence-> America 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2018 at 07:52
Franciscosan

Quote Australia is never called 'the new world,' because North and South America got there first!

You're right. Australia is and was called The Great Southern Land.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2018 at 07:12
Just skim the article. 
Quote Burroughs' last book was "The Western Lands," ergo I submit to you that Burroughs was an Essene and a Templar.....Clap 

"Now go back and carefully re-read what Waldseemüller wrote. You will notice that Waldseemüller isn’t offering an original name he is simply musing on what form the name should take. Indeed, his preference seems to lie with the name Amerige, but he is willing to accept the name Americabecause it was already in use!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2018 at 07:24

Quote Now, Columbus was not attempting to reach what is now known as the East Indies, modern day Indonesia, he was trying to reach Asia.

That Christopher Columbus could have navigated so poorly as to end up virtually on the other side of the earth, is a mystery to me.
He disagreed with other navigators about the circumference of the earth, thinking earth to be much smaller. 

Much has been made of Columbus's connections with the Knights Templar. He was married to a daughter of a former Grand Master of the Knights of Christ, a Portuguese order that had grown up after the Templars had been driven underground. It's been noted as significant that Columbus navigated ships whose sails carried the distinctive red cross 'patte' of the Templars.
Mark Booth / <cite>The Secret History of the World</cite>




Edited by Vanuatu - 08 Mar 2018 at 07:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2018 at 09:36
Re:- Columbus' association with Templars.

My understanding is that the Knights Templar were not proscribed in Portugal, and that many Templars fled to Portugal (and Scotland) where they were sheltered.

But the Knights Templar didn't have the monopoly on the cross pattee, it was also used by other Catholics.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2018 at 14:07
http://fotw.info/flags/pt_oxp.html

Quote My understanding is that the Knights Templar were not proscribed in Portugal, and that many Templars fled to Portugal (and Scotland) where they were sheltered.
Exactly, they were not living openly as Templars after Phillip of France outlawed them. 

Quote But the Knights Templar didn't have the monopoly on the cross pattee, it was also used by other Catholics.
Yes, other Catholics such as the Portuguese Knights of Christ-that is why Columbus flew under the cross pattee. 
From the link:

About the Order

The Portugese Order of Knights of Christ, as I understand, originates from the Portugese priory of the Templars, which simply changed its name when the order was suppressed by Pope Clement, and everyone pretended not to notice that his “new” order just happened to have all the same members.
Will Linden, 11 May 1997

Historische Fahnen [neu32] tells us something like (my translation):

Following the dissolution of the Order of the Templars on instigation of the King of France in 1312, King Dionysius of Portugal in 1319 used their possesions to found the Order of Christ, which also took over the order’s symbol.

In 1494 the right to conquer the new world was divided between Portugal and Spain. In America the division placed Brazil in the Portuguese Zone, where the introduction of Christianity was primarily due to the Order of Christ, whose Cross Brazil bore in its arms until 1889.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2018 at 03:01
i think you believe that america or amerika is stated independently of Amerigo Vespucci.  and that originates from this star merica.  First of all, in that article I don't see america as stated independently of Amerigo, I see it as said by some sailors, and there is no statement about whether they are independent or dependent on Amerigo's discovery.  Waldseemuller seems to say that it could be named after Amerigo, meaning perhaps the name has not yet been determined, and that Amerigo's discovery is as good of a reason as any other.  The version amerige would have Ge in it, the goddess of the Earth, Europa and Asia are also feminine.  so perhaps wanting to do the name one better, he suggested that version.  "America" is the feminine form of "Americus" Amerigo's latin version.

So there is some testimony of a star in the article, is there any testimony for such a star independently of this article, this writer?

To me Occam's razor suggests that the original story is the standard one with Amerigo Vespucci.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2018 at 03:41
The question seems to be whether or not the particular land mass was known to seamen as America before or after the "discovery" by Don Amerigo Vespucci.

Also, is there a star which is now or was called "Merica"?

If the answer to that question is "Yes", when was the star named and by whom?

If those questions can be answered accurately, it also provides the answer to the question of what the land mass was called "originally". N'est pas?


Edited by toyomotor - 09 Mar 2018 at 03:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2018 at 22:43
no, I think that the name and origin of the supposed star, does not necessarily entail the name of the continent.   You have to have the sailors naming the continent _because_ of the star.  Not just the name of the continent and similarly the name of the star.

Of course, in Latin and English, an 'a' privative means "not" or the opposite.  anarchy, amoral, asymmetry.  So maybe the sailors were saying a-merica, it is 'not' the star.  Do you suppose? Thumbs Up

So merica makes sense as an abbreviation of what is America first and where you have dropped an a, but it doesn't necessarily make sense if you have merica first, and then are going to add an a.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2018 at 01:57
A bout as much sense as Arkansas being pronounced Arkinsaw!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2018 at 14:01
Hello
Yes sailors talking about Merica. The name goes back to the Mandaeans who are a version of the Nasoreans (Essenes). Qumran Dead Sea Scrolls recorded this This link is a free google book, not sure how long it will be active.



Edited by Vanuatu - 11 Mar 2018 at 14:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2018 at 14:16
toyomotor, its speculation based on clues- a la Dan Brown. 
How about Templar pottery in Pirate's Bay off the coast of Madagascar(William Kidd)? An old carved ivory Christ, done in Templar style and a Seraphim carving were also recently found there. It's fun, lots of clues. Really makes sense about Portugal going from zero to - first King of Portugal asks for protection for the Templars. For certain the Templars defended Portugal against Muslim invaders.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2018 at 22:47
I was kinda hopin' for a direct quote of an ancient source that could be checked on.  Or a history of astronomy reference guide that talks about "Merika" and its modern equivalent.  Not a secondary source that is making all kinds of wild claims that, for example, the templars where in the New World in 1306.  Maybe they were, and maybe they weren't.  But, I consider the evidence to be tenuous at best, (and fraudulent at worst).  It is like people who believe that the Kings of Europe are descended from Jesus through the Merovingians.  It is a nice story until somebody takes it seriously.  There are conspiracies at work in the world, but usually they are active in the way marginal things get promoted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2018 at 23:59
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Hello
Yes sailors talking about Merica. The name goes back to the Mandaeans who are a version of the Nasoreans (Essenes). Qumran Dead Sea Scrolls recorded this This link is a free google book, not sure how long it will be active.


The link you posted has triggered one of my interests, so much so in fact, that I've ordered a copy of Following the Ark of The Covenant.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 00:06
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I was kinda hopin' for a direct quote of an ancient source that could be checked on.  Or a history of astronomy reference guide that talks about "Merika" and its modern equivalent.  Not a secondary source that is making all kinds of wild claims that, for example, the templars where in the New World in 1306.  Maybe they were, and maybe they weren't.  But, I consider the evidence to be tenuous at best, (and fraudulent at worst).  It is like people who believe that the Kings of Europe are descended from Jesus through the Merovingians.  It is a nice story until somebody takes it seriously.  There are conspiracies at work in the world, but usually they are active in the way marginal things get promoted.

As I've written previously, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

There are many archeological finds being made which are turning history on it's head, especially now with the technology available (and getting better all the time).

If in fact the star "Merika" is mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls, it could well be that the star was known to some early navigators.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 00:35
I would like to know which Dead Sea Scroll mentions it.  Yes, "it could all be that the star was to some early navigators."  If it was extant.

Yes, we know that the absence ... is not evidence ....  And in three weeks gravity may reverse itself, you can't say it won't!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 00:45
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I would like to know which Dead Sea Scroll mentions it.  Yes, "it could all be that the star was to some early navigators."  If it was extant.

Yes, we know that the absence ... is not evidence ....  And in three weeks gravity may reverse itself, you can't say it won't!


1. Do some research, you may find it. Also see Waldseemullers book.

2. That's being a bit childish, isn't it? Of course I can't say it won't, you can't say it will......and round and round we go.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 01:25
I could do some research, and if i did some research, I might find it.  But, I have about five different books I am reading right now.  On the other hand, one thing I am researching some is the Dead Sea Scrolls, I believe I have a collection called "the Complete Dead Sea Scrolls."  If someone would care to mention which work it is found in, I could look it up, presumably.  Of course, if I don't find it in there, that doesn't mean it is not somewhere, but that does not cure my scepticism.

Yes, Vanuatu cited someone citing Waldseemuller.  I am not sure -ge is used as a suffix.  Faberge is something different.  I will have to look at it again.

Yes, Portugal controlled the trade around the horn of Africa, and had colonies in India, China, and probably Africa, so pottery in a harbor in Madagascar is plausible, but it is not the New World.  The Portuguese burned most of the manuscripts of the Thomas Christians in India.


Edited by franciscosan - 12 Mar 2018 at 01:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 12:40
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I was kinda hopin' for a direct quote of an ancient source that could be checked on.  Or a history of astronomy reference guide that talks about "Merika" and its modern equivalent.  Not a secondary source that is making all kinds of wild claims that, for example, the templars where in the New World in 1306.  Maybe they were, and maybe they weren't.  But, I consider the evidence to be tenuous at best, (and fraudulent at worst).  It is like people who believe that the Kings of Europe are descended from Jesus through the Merovingians.  It is a nice story until somebody takes it seriously.  There are conspiracies at work in the world, but usually they are active in the way marginal things get promoted.

As I've written previously, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

There are many archeological finds being made which are turning history on it's head, especially now with the technology available (and getting better all the time).

If in fact the star "Merika" is mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls, it could well be that the star was known to some early navigators.



The Mandaeans have a ritual that describes the prayer to the "Pole" star. The orientation of North, the direction that Mandaeans prayed to is not our sense of North. The people of the Tigris/ Euphrates considered directions; in front of, behind, left or right. True North for the Mandaeans and Essenes would have been South proper.

This information is from the Ginza or the Book of John or one of the liturgical works of the Mandaeans. No search for Merica in the Dead Sea Scrolls produces an answer. It cannot be the same name but the fact that the "Pole" star was a point of significance is established.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2018 at 20:09
I think that you mean Geniza (Genizah), not Ginza.  Ginza is a district of Tokyo.  Geniza is a repository for worn out Jewish documents, of which the Cairo and the Afghan Geniza are examples.  But, if it is in the Geniza documents or the Mandaeans it is safe from me.

Anyways, we are a long way off from Christopher Columbus.  From my understanding, the Arabs were cutting off the trade routes to the East, and the Venetians dominated what was left of those routes.  Portugal controlled the route around the Cape of Good Hope.  And so Christopher Columbus, knowing the world was round, sailed West in order to get to the East.  The estimate for the circumference of the world that he chose was too small, and he was lucky that there was another continent(s) in the way.  Or if you prefer, he knew there was something out there all along, and he knew that if he went west he would run into it.  This version says that his original plan of sailing to the west to get to the East was a ruse.  I doubt that, but obviously the Vikings had gotten to the New World before then.

Did the Templars get there? I doubt it, but even if they did, they left no lasting, clear record of it.  Considering how the Jamestown colony died off, I could imagine an earlier colony dying off, if it existed in the first place.  Of course, English settlers thought the New England weather would be like theirs, due to the same latitude.  The didn't realize that the gulf stream went up the coast of Great Britain, bringing warm water, heating England, and then down the coast of North America, bringing cold water, freezing New England.  The Jamestown settlers weren't ready for the cold weather, and if these mythical Templars, being at the same latitude as Scotland, even existed, they wouldn't have been ready for the cold either.

btw, you might look up 'bay of jars, brazil'


Edited by franciscosan - 12 Mar 2018 at 20:17
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